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Author Topic: The Warrior situation in BC  (Read 50561 times)
jpark
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on: February 03, 2007, 01:24:04 PM

We know the dynamic here - you can visit any class forum and pretty much find it full of whining about why the class  in questions needs more perks and is an underdog.

So when I visited the warrior WoW forums - for a measure of balance - I read the topics started by druids on warrior tanking issues.  My summary:

1.  Druids / Paladins are now the kings of multitarget tanking (I agree - and do not have a problem with this per se)
2.  Warrior threat on a single target is weak - and is a pain in the ass in 5 mans when rapid clearing is needed (I agree)
3.  Warriors have comparable survivability to a druid in bear form (I dunno - but this should not be true - we choose warriors to be tanks - and I do believe Paladins have superior survivability which onluy makes matters worse).

The warrior is a great class - and I have never had any problem with it.  Until now - I am really noticing some issues.

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Morat20
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Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 01:48:49 PM

We know the dynamic here - you can visit any class forum and pretty much find it full of whining about why the class  in questions needs more perks and is an underdog.

So when I visited the warrior WoW forums - for a measure of balance - I read the topics started by druids on warrior tanking issues.  My summary:

1.  Druids / Paladins are now the kings of multitarget tanking (I agree - and do not have a problem with this per se)
2.  Warrior threat on a single target is weak - and is a pain in the ass in 5 mans when rapid clearing is needed (I agree)
3.  Warriors have comparable survivability to a druid in bear form (I dunno - but this should not be true - we choose warriors to be tanks - and I do believe Paladins have superior survivability which onluy makes matters worse).

The warrior is a great class - and I have never had any problem with it.  Until now - I am really noticing some issues.

From Dev statements (well, forum blue posts -- of dubious validity. I've been reading the Hunters trying to explain why "Only having three stable slots means you can only have two real pets" to one for a week now) -- it appears Blizzard Devs are worried about gear scaling at endgame. They seem to have overdone it, though.
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Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 04:35:16 PM

and I do believe Paladins have superior survivability which onluy makes matters worse

I hadn't played my Paladin in half a year, but I respecced into a full protection build, except for 10 points to get the skill that prevents your heals from being interupted. Even with green gear, some of it 50, lightforge gloves and belt, som +mana regen items, and wyrmslayer spaulders (level 45?) I can tank 4 level 62 boars or buzzards at level 60 for what ammounts to infinity. The combination of Retribution aura, Blessing of Sanctuary, Seal of Light, reckoning, righteous fury, and a group of mobs hitting you is insane. And the more you get hit, the more reckoning procs, which makes your seal of light proc more - wich means you get healed more. I bet I could tank a dozen mobs at once that were a level or two below me.

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jpark
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Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 04:51:29 PM

The warrior logic seems to have departed from the original concept in WoW.

To be brief:

EQ:  Pallies superior at aggro, inferior at tanking vs. warrior
WOW at launch:  Pallies inferoir at getting aggro, superior in tanking to warrior
WoW with BC:  Pallies superior at aggro, superior in tanking to warrior

The fact that paladins in WoW had poor ability to get / maintain aggro kept their superior survivability to a warrior a mute issue for the most part.  Now of course, with superior snap aggro control - there is nothing to hold a paladin back - or put another way - there is little reason currently to use a warrior.

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
angry.bob
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Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 07:35:24 PM

there is nothing to hold a paladin back - or put another way - there is little reason currently to use a warrior.

I'd disagree... paladins are still painfully boring and un-interactive. I have a 57 warrior and a 60 paladin. The warrior is still much more fun to play. The paladin, despite being for all purposes unkillable, is still just autoattacking and refreshing a seal. Like this morning... I ran into a group of buzzards on hellfire peninsula, judged SoL, on one, refreshed the seal on myself, backed up so they were still in my front arc, went and got my baby, went and got a bottle for him, cut off a piece of cheese for myself, cut off some pepperoni to go with the cheese, went back upstairs to my study, and made it back in time to judge SoL on a different buzzard as the first one was killing itself against me. Other than moving my toon about to find fresh MOBs, I don't even have to be involved in combat. It's painful. But the perfect class and spec while feeding a baby and watching TV.

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Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 07:56:40 PM

Once people get back into full epics and overpowered weapons rather than greens and blues warriors will be on top again.

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Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 10:07:46 PM

I haven't really noticed anything playing my warrior (only level 64 though) outside of the fact that druids are pretty competent tanks now. As far as single-target aggro I have to call horse shit. I'm full protect-spec and outside of taunts or aggro wipes nothing will get a boss off me. Not druids in bear form, not tankadins. I sunder up, and hit devastate, shield block, and revenge over and over to infinity. I need to install damage meters again to see how much damage my devastate contributes for a good boss fight, because I bet it's pretty damn good compared to before the skill was available. It's a wonderful rage dump along with shield slam.

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Paelos
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Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 11:52:10 PM

Speaking as a person who has MT'd in MC/BWL farm instances, and then now has to fight in 5 mans again, warriors are still not in trouble with tanking. One main issue is that many if not the majority of warriors sold their soul away in the expansion to the arms/fury build instead of protection. This makes for shitty tanks, I don't care what you say. I'll go into it further if needed, but the fact is that protection tanks with the current specs are have a major advantage in BC at the higher levels. Any idiot can tank Hellfire at whatever level, but you can't stick a druid into the Shattered Halls as your MT and expect great success.

However, the new advancements have made feral druids incredible offtanks. They are now choice #1 IMO for the best OT against physical opponents.

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Ironwood
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Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 02:24:18 AM

Prot Tank here :  What those two said ---------------^

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Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 05:43:08 AM

I would have to say that druids are "ok" tanks for tanking in a general sense.  However, chances are that anyone suggesting a druid main tank a Heroic Mode anything is going to get their face slapped.

Druids only have 2 forms of damage mitigation: Dodge, and High armor values.

Warriors have 4: Dodge, Block, Parry, and High Armor Values (throw in Periodic Spell Reflects for one more).  Count also the fact that Any attack that is blocked can NOT be crusing OR critical, and you will notice that a good warrior takes SIGNIFIGANTLY less damage then a druid over the course of a fight, contributing to less chance of healers running out of mana.  All in all, the only real reason Druids "seem" to be better at multi target aggro is cause they can spam Swipe over and over again to keep 3 targets on them, where as a warrior has to sunder, tab, sunder, tab, revenge, tab sunder, etc.

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Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 05:52:55 AM

Due to the 3% less crit talent and the newer itemization Druids and Warriors will easily get enough defense as to not be crit.

In the end Warriors block a lot and don't take crushing blows, they have last stand, shield wall and parry.  Warriors live better.

Druids definetly are my pick for any of the instances I've been too (through Sethekk).
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Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 06:30:50 AM

I have a 63ish warrior alt (fury specced.. the only way to not want to stab your own eyes out with a spoon while solo pve'ing) and have MT'd and watched my guildie prot pally / two feral droods MT a lot of instances.

I'd say that non-prot warriors lose out a bit since their increased damage isn't contributing much to tanking efficiency (there is NO threat generating ability that scales with damage, even devastate and heroic strike only have a threat bonus to their base damage.. not sure on devastate, actually). On the other hand, the main druid and paladin threat generators ARE damage-based. The feral druid tanks I run with always get #2 on the DPS charts, outdamaging all dpsers except for my warlock main or one of our fire mages; they outdamage elemental and frost mages easily (zomfg nerf!!11). Pallies and druids both have incredible AOE tanking tools in consecrate and swipe; my poor warrior is usually struggling to have enough rage to keep 2 mobs under control, much less 4 or more.

But when it comes to tanking bosses (and quite possibly heroic mode trash), warriors win. There's a LOT of rage input, and those can be effectively turned into mitigation (shield block, spell reflect), damage (heroic strike spam) and threat (heroic strike spam, revenge, sunder, shield bash; shield slam and devastate spam if specced). Some of the warrior debuffs are also universally very nice, while pallies don't debuff the target at all, and druids only have demoralizing roar and non-stacking faerie fire (mangle isn't that useful for the debuff except for the druid himself to hold aggro with lacerate). All warriors get Sunder Armor, Thunderclap (it IS pretty darn good now, esp. if improved) and demo shout, fury warriors get an aoe daze (Piercing Howl), prot warriors get a stun (Concussion Blow... yeah, druids and pallies get a single target stun too), arms warriors get a flat damage increaser debuff (Blood Frenzy?), Improved Thunderclap and Mortal Strike (which is still hot against the few mobs and bosses that like to heal).
However, if it's a polymorphing boss (haven't seen any, yet), druids are the best choice; and pallies are the best against undead and demons still.

Overall I'll wait until my warrior hits 70 (which'll be a long while, I only play my warrior with rest xp) before I cast judgement. Also, in pvp, more hp is universally a good thing for warriors, with or without support. I HAVE noticed however, that druids have a lot easier time being damage dealer and tank in basically the same gear and spec, while pallies and warriors have to switch gearsets and builds to maximize their potential in either.


-- Z.

Shavnir
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Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 06:38:49 AM

I'm afraid to play my warrior honestly.  So much doom and gloom, and the brightness that is the warlock is...comforting.
jpark
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Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 09:08:12 AM

Yes I am embrassed to say my observations are counfouned by the fact that to level I went to arms from protection - and I have not returned to protection yet (at level 67 currently).

I certainly agree Angry Bob the warrior is far more engaging to play than a paladin.  The paladin is the perfect BOT - which Korea is generously leveling for my friends and I - who will be our "5 th man" on non-heroic runs.

Looking forward to seeing the warrior scale with gear - but this is based on faith not observation.  I don't understand what the hell my problem - or the problem is with loot right now.  I have not seen a SINGLE warrior drop that has made me drool as a protection tank.  Right now, my greens that are either pure Defense or pure Stamina are far more preferrable than the blue shit I am seeing in BC.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 09:12:00 AM by jpark »

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Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 10:14:20 AM

Blue warrior itemization before Steamvault is typically based on the fact that WoW believes you will be doing DPS. It's a lot of hit/crit/damage rather than defense on the majority of drops. This flips of course with the Warrior blue Dungeon 3 set, which is the Armor of the Bold. However, I've found that despite the great defense increases, at a certain point you get diminishing returns on the values.

I have ~450 on my warrior right now, which is a good number for me, but i've found that you can jimmy around with resilience and shield block values to get a better overall effect on percentages, rather than just going hardcore defense like we would have in the past. It's something to keep in mind before you put that huge resilience necklace on the shelf in favor of 10 more defense.

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Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 10:45:21 AM

Ah ha, so Resillience DOES work in PvE.  I had such an argument with a few folks over that becuase they said, "dude it's a PvP only stat, that's why it's on all the PvP gear."    rolleyes  Argh.

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Paelos
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Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 11:00:15 AM

Ah ha, so Resillience DOES work in PvE.  I had such an argument with a few folks over that becuase they said, "dude it's a PvP only stat, that's why it's on all the PvP gear."    rolleyes  Argh.

It's not that it's horribly useful yet, which is why the majority of people are frothing about it's pvp potential. However, it does save your ass on big boss crits occasionally which over a long haul fight puts less strain on the healer crew, and saves mana for the group. Also, the main reason to use it is the diminishing return of defense benefits I've seen at numbers over 400, where a 17 defense item is only giving me 7 for some reason. So, it just makes sense for me to get the full 20 resilience over that extra 7.

Those people will be changing tunes anyway when they face a boss who can crit for 15k, so resilience gear will be the only thing keeping you alive. I suspect a little will be good for most fights here and there with defense still being king, but I think people will build "resilience gear" for boss fights that are heavily phyical damage.

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Reply #17 on: February 04, 2007, 11:34:12 AM

Resilience also works on spell crits, while defense doesn't... though I'm not sure just how many spell-crittin' bosses are out there.
... and anyway, most instance drop stuff with resilience on it either has a truckload of stamina or an activated "shield" ability. If that's not tank gear, I don't know what is. As a 70 warlock, I think non-tanks should just get +resilience gear from pvp, and leave the +resilience dungeon loot to the tanks. If something's critting you in pve repeatedly as a DPSer / healer, things are going horribly, horribly wrong and some minor crit reduction won't save ya. :P


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jpark
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Reply #18 on: February 04, 2007, 01:01:53 PM

Okay do I understand this correctly? :

Defense:  damage avoidance for MELEE (no effect on crushing) and in particular avoiding criticals.  (with Def about 480 I have not been criticaled once).  No effect on SPELLS.

Resilience:  IF you do get criticaled - this scales it down for SPELLS and MELEE Damage.

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"  HaemishM.
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Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 01:13:13 PM

That's how I understand it.. though Resilience also reduces the chance to get crit in the first place (ALL crits, magical and physical).


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Ironwood
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Reply #20 on: February 04, 2007, 01:47:07 PM

Prot Warriors also get Piercing Howl.  It's a lifesaver.

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Threash
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Reply #21 on: February 04, 2007, 01:58:53 PM

Okay do I understand this correctly? :

Defense:  damage avoidance for MELEE (no effect on crushing) and in particular avoiding criticals.  (with Def about 480 I have not been criticaled once).  No effect on SPELLS.

Resilience:  IF you do get criticaled - this scales it down for SPELLS and MELEE Damage.

40 Resiliance is like -1% crit chance and -2% crit damage on you, so its pretty damn good.  Defense lowers the chance you get crit in melee and raises parry/block/dodge.

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jpark
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Reply #22 on: February 04, 2007, 02:35:18 PM

Prot Warriors also get Piercing Howl.  It's a lifesaver.


Bah.  That's the fury tree.

Problem is, I like protection so much - most times I don't leave myself enough points to get piercing howl. 

Amazing for pvp though.

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"  HaemishM.
Ironwood
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Reply #23 on: February 04, 2007, 02:43:39 PM

20/41.

The Howl and the extra Rage generation is the best mix of tanking and allowing yourself to level while waiting for the next group.

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Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 06:18:20 AM

Resilience also works on spell crits, while defense doesn't... though I'm not sure just how many spell-crittin' bosses are out there.
... and anyway, most instance drop stuff with resilience on it either has a truckload of stamina or an activated "shield" ability. If that's not tank gear, I don't know what is. As a 70 warlock, I think non-tanks should just get +resilience gear from pvp, and leave the +resilience dungeon loot to the tanks. If something's critting you in pve repeatedly as a DPSer / healer, things are going horribly, horribly wrong and some minor crit reduction won't save ya. :P


-- Z.

Monsters can't crit with spells.  Honestly it won't take that long before people are hitting defense values such that bosses can't crit anyways, so resilence on PvE gear will be essentially wasted.
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Reply #25 on: February 05, 2007, 10:30:17 AM

My main is a level 69 prot speced warrior. I also have a level 61 druid so I have seen both sides of the field. With the new mitigation changes for druids and increased dodging bear form druids can deffinatly hold their own. I still wind up taking far less damage at comparable levels with my protection speced warrior.

Multi mob situations druids and paladins shine in but typically my group has one or two of the group of mobs locked down with crowd control so what is left I can easily take. Also while druids shine vs the trash warriors shine vs the tougher opponents. The tougher the mob the more rage and time to use their tricks warriors have. Shield blocking and spell reflecting as often as they pop up depending on what boss you are fighting can cut the ammount of damage a ton.

My hp with my new gear is easily equal to druids although it took me more work to get to that level. At 69 with what instance gear I have gotten so far I am at totally unbuffed about 10500 HP and well over 10k armor. My dodge block parry are all at around the 13% range.

I know there is a lot of doom and gloom but warriors tank no worse than they did before and if paladins and druids have come up a bit all the better. Personally I don't think its the spec or even class amongst the tank classes thats the big key its the person driving them. If you play to your strenghts you will tank fine a warrior lives longer and is more duable but has to work a bit harder to hold the agro. Druids and paladins have an easier time managing off target agro but typically need more healing. One nice synergy for the paladins is although they need more healing heals on the wind up giving them more mana to cast thus more agro giving them the staying power they always lacked.

I have not gone into any dungeon yet and felt unable to do my job correctly. I have done all the instances up to the first circle of time instance and probably will be working on the level 70 instances and tempest keep once the rest of my group catchs up a bit most of them are 66 67.


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Reply #26 on: February 05, 2007, 10:35:50 AM

If you are going main tank protection mode you wouldn't have 20/41 you would have something like 15/5/41 as deflection is simply to good to pass up. A flat 5% boost to your parry skill that does not get neutered as you level up is just to nice. The 20/41 build would be a good prot build that still allows you more oompf while soloing. I have tried it and it works well but I always fall back to getting deflection.

kaid
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Reply #27 on: February 05, 2007, 12:40:46 PM

The warrior is a great class - and I have never had any problem with it.  Until now - I am really noticing some issues.

That'll teach you to read the forums.
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Reply #28 on: February 05, 2007, 12:55:39 PM

The warrior is a great class - and I have never had any problem with it.  Until now - I am really noticing some issues.

That'll teach you to read the forums.

Actually, this was the very first thought I had when reading this thread.  If you want to find new and innovative ways to hate your gaming experience (and ultimately your life, too), just go check out the class forums.

Witty banter not included.
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Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 12:59:30 PM

If you are going main tank protection mode you wouldn't have 20/41 you would have something like 15/5/41 as deflection is simply to good to pass up. A flat 5% boost to your parry skill that does not get neutered as you level up is just to nice. The 20/41 build would be a good prot build that still allows you more oompf while soloing. I have tried it and it works well but I always fall back to getting deflection.

kaid

Um.  That's what I said wasn't it ?

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Reply #30 on: February 05, 2007, 01:59:36 PM

Having partied with Ironwood's Prot specced tank often (and being a crit crazy destruction lock) I see no problem with this build at all. He certainly manages to keep from me (thank goodness). evil
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Reply #31 on: February 05, 2007, 02:57:32 PM

WTB: A post with some substance.

Warrior QQing now? C'mon, we're better than this aren't we?

Everyone has provided the refutations already in this thread, I just want to ask why this rubbish is posted here. It belongs on WoW general forums.
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Reply #32 on: February 05, 2007, 03:05:01 PM

Having partied with Ironwood's Prot specced tank often (and being a crit crazy destruction lock) I see no problem with this build at all. He certainly manages to keep from me (thank goodness). evil

An obvious mole for Ironwood Inc. I'll believe it's not when they've built up a couple hundred posts in the Politics forum.

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Reply #33 on: February 05, 2007, 04:32:39 PM

WTB: A post with some substance.

Warrior QQing now? C'mon, we're better than this aren't we?

Everyone has provided the refutations already in this thread, I just want to ask why this rubbish is posted here. It belongs on WoW general forums.

You know this is not going to happen - so I assume you are posting to see yourself?

There are several here that noted some potential problems for warrios in BC and I pointed out some limitations in my own musings on this matter.  The class forums were qualified in their usage by referencing posts by druids on this topic not warriors.

If you're not going to read the thread - all one page of it - don't post. 

Going to check some warrior web sites - any comments on threat generation of Devestate?  You guys spamming it - or use it only to refresh the sunders?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 04:35:29 PM by jpark »

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"  HaemishM.
lamaros
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Reply #34 on: February 05, 2007, 05:08:43 PM

WTB: A post with some substance.

Warrior QQing now? C'mon, we're better than this aren't we?

Everyone has provided the refutations already in this thread, I just want to ask why this rubbish is posted here. It belongs on WoW general forums.

You know this is not going to happen - so I assume you are posting to see yourself?

There are several here that noted some potential problems for warrios in BC and I pointed out some limitations in my own musings on this matter.  The class forums were qualified in their usage by referencing posts by druids on this topic not warriors.

If you're not going to read the thread - all one page of it - don't post.

Going to check some warrior web sites - any comments on threat generation of Devestate?  You guys spamming it - or use it only to refresh the sunders?

I bolded my original quote. And your quote.

Now:

If you're not going to read (and understand - though I do have sympathy for your troubles in this regard) my post - all four lines of it - don't post.

Classes have issues and they are fun to discuss, but popular Forum Topic QQing is not that place to start from. If you have things you want to discuss then talk about it, but don't come out with crap about warriors being "crap at x" just because it's a popular forum topic.

"Random Statement. Discuss" is not really want we want to be about. That's more for trolling and humor. So keep the generalities, especially ones you have not come up with yourself, to a minimum.

"I'm not really sure what I should be doing with Devastate in regards to threat, how do you guys do this?" is a decent query. So is "I'm having trouble holding aggro with my x/x/x build. Do you guys have any suggestions?" "Warrior threat on a single target is weak - and is a pain in the ass in 5 mans when rapid clearing is needed (I agree)" is not a useful thing to say.
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