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Topic: The Warrior situation in BC (Read 50562 times)
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Fabricated
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Posts: 8978
~Living the Dream~
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WTB: A post with some substance.
Warrior QQing now? C'mon, we're better than this aren't we?
Everyone has provided the refutations already in this thread, I just want to ask why this rubbish is posted here. It belongs on WoW general forums.
You know this is not going to happen - so I assume you are posting to see yourself? There are several here that noted some potential problems for warrios in BC and I pointed out some limitations in my own musings on this matter. The class forums were qualified in their usage by referencing posts by druids on this topic not warriors. If you're not going to read the thread - all one page of it - don't post. Going to check some warrior web sites - any comments on threat generation of Devestate? You guys spamming it - or use it only to refresh the sunders? It works dandy...after 5 sunders. It's better for bosses and trash that has a LOT of health. I find my time better spent shield slamming, bashing, and stunning for most instance trash. For bosses, I can sunder up (along with shield block/revenge), then pretty much just hit shield block and devastate the rest of the fight on everything up to where I am (mana tombs). Outside of aggro dumps I can't think of a single time I've lost aggro if I'm allowed to get my 3 sunders in before DPS starts.
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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jpark
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Lam,
1. You say everyone has provided refutations on this thread: I am not going to sir bruce with quotes - but review the above - all 1 page of it again - and you will see opinion is not unanimous on this matter.
2. This post is more than just about the forums but the new rules that give stronger aggro control to classess like the paladin - which combined with strong / possibly superior survivability - may change the warriors's place in the game (not for bosses but for 5 mans). Tehre are some clear game design changes that have occurred in BC with the relative contributions of some classes to aggro control. To poll this position from the other side - I used druid posts.
This is a perfectly valid topic.
You complain about this thread - and now we are both spending time - 2 posts each total so far - discussing whether this thread is a waste of time. This is odd utility. Suggestion: do something else with your time - there must be another thread somewhere in f13.
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 06:18:12 PM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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lamaros
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Lam,
1. You say everyone has provided refutations on this thread: I am not going to sir bruce with quotes - but review the above - all 1 page of it again - and you will see opinion is not unanimous on this matter.
2. This post is more than just about the forums but the new rules that give stronger aggro control to classess like the paladin - which combined with strong / possibly superior survivability - may change the warriors's place in the game (not for bosses but for 5 mans). Tehre are some clear game design changes that have occurred in BC with the relative contributions of some classes to aggro control. To poll this position from the other side - I used druid posts.
This is a perfectly valid topic.
You complain about this thread - and now we are both spending time - 2 posts each total so far - discussing whether this thread is a waste of time. This is odd utility. Suggestion: do something else with your time - there must be another thread somewhere in f13.
1. Just because you're not the only idiot on this forum doesn't mean you're not still an idiot. 2. Change the warrior's place in the game.... in 5 mans? Have you played this game? 5 mans are a joke, and many can almost be done without any tank except for the boss fights. For the boss fights Warriors are still the best tanks in most (pretty much all) situations - with all bosses being easy with any of the tanking classes.
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lamaros
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Just because I'm feeling nice:
1. Druids / Paladins are now the kings of multitarget tanking (I agree - and do not have a problem with this per se)
Paladins are, yes. On certain multitargets. But there are few to no situations in the game currently where this is needed. Warriors are able to hold aggro fine on multiple targets if they and their group is competent.
2. Warrior threat on a single target is weak - and is a pain in the ass in 5 mans when rapid clearing is needed (I agree)
Not at all. Warriors threat is fine. Please provide examples of these "rapid clearing" situations you seem to be having so much trouble with. All the ones I can think of I have managed fine with a warrior. This includes the 'suppression room' in Shattered Halls, which I did with a 68 Warrior when I was level 70.
3. Warriors have comparable survivability to a druid in bear form (I dunno - but this should not be true - we choose warriors to be tanks - and I do believe Paladins have superior survivability which onluy makes matters worse).
Protection Warriors have more survivability than any other class.
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 08:06:22 PM by lamaros »
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lamaros
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The warrior logic seems to have departed from the original concept in WoW.
To be brief:
EQ: Pallies superior at aggro, inferior at tanking vs. warrior WOW at launch: Pallies inferoir at getting aggro, superior in tanking to warrior WoW with BC: Pallies superior at aggro, superior in tanking to warrior
The fact that paladins in WoW had poor ability to get / maintain aggro kept their superior survivability to a warrior a mute issue for the most part. Now of course, with superior snap aggro control - there is nothing to hold a paladin back - or put another way - there is little reason currently to use a warrior.
EQ is pertinent, thanks for including it. I believe it was a 'moot' issue. No. Palladins do not have greater survivability. They have less health, less mitigation, less spell mitigation, and worse tanking itemisation. Then the rest of the thread seems to be warriors saying "I tank fine. We're not broken." So umm, I agree with them. Except: Resillience. Not a PvE stat Paelos.
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 08:06:52 PM by lamaros »
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Shavnir
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Paladins to me seem like the ultimate pick for AOE situations. They literally get more mitigation as they get more mobs attacking them, their taunt affects an ally and taunts three (I think, might be more) mobs onto you, Avenger's Shield is high threat and multitarget.
Druids also seem to be better off with a few mobs, swipe + the talent that returns rage on crits (and imp lotp) seems to make swipe tanking quite valid.
As for itemization...I have seen a lot of paladin plate. The quality of it I don't know, I haven't been playing my warrior to compare the tanking drops from instances for warriors and paladins.
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lamaros
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Paladins to me seem like the ultimate pick for AOE situations. They literally get more mitigation as they get more mobs attacking them, their taunt affects an ally and taunts three (I think, might be more) mobs onto you, Avenger's Shield is high threat and multitarget.
Druids also seem to be better off with a few mobs, swipe + the talent that returns rage on crits (and imp lotp) seems to make swipe tanking quite valid.
As for itemization...I have seen a lot of paladin plate. The quality of it I don't know, I haven't been playing my warrior to compare the tanking drops from instances for warriors and paladins.
Yeah, but you never need an AOE tank that much. Normally you can Mage/Warlock/Etc AOE fine, or they're elites that hit hard enough you only want to tank 2-3 at most and CC the rest. And the harder those 2-3 mobs hit the more you want the tank who's going to last the longest tanking them (not the Pally), not the one with the best aggro (aggro on 2-3 mobs isn't that hard for a good warrior). Pally gear atm doesn't have as much Stamina. Probably because item budgets and the fact they require more stats. So Pallys being good AOE tanks does'nt mean that much, unless blizz desings a lot of situations for it. Otherwise it's just a gimmick.
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jpark
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It works dandy...after 5 sunders. It's better for bosses and trash that has a LOT of health. I find my time better spent shield slamming, bashing, and stunning for most instance trash. For bosses, I can sunder up (along with shield block/revenge), then pretty much just hit shield block and devastate the rest of the fight on everything up to where I am (mana tombs). Outside of aggro dumps I can't think of a single time I've lost aggro if I'm allowed to get my 3 sunders in before DPS starts.
That was my experience tanking with devestate just prior to BC. But I would like to see the numbers though - in comparing Devestate threat to heroic strike. In protection - we can take 6 rage off the cost of sunder arm - through 6 talents in two different areas. So this begs my next question, with 6 off the rage cost of sunder, even if 5 sunders are aleady in place - it might be optimal to spam sunders over anything else. We know threat from sunders can still take place after 5 sunders - and with the large rage reduction cost in the protection tree - I wonder how it stacks up vs. devestate.
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Ironwood
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Having partied with Ironwood's Prot specced tank often (and being a crit crazy destruction lock) I see no problem with this build at all. He certainly manages to keep from me (thank goodness).  An obvious mole for Ironwood Inc. I'll believe it's not when they've built up a couple hundred posts in the Politics forum. If Connie's still reading after that warm welcome, I would advise her to never, ever, ever enter the politics forum. Ever. Ever. (However, she is right. The aggro generation on the average warlock is totally insane at the moment and she's one of the TWO in my usual five man parties. I have little or not problem holding and keeping the aggro, or using P.S to slow them down if they feel like running. Why people are complaining about the warrior is totally bizarre to me : I think they're great.) Oh and Welcome to f13 Connie. Why you came here after all my warnings, I do not know. :)
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Fabricated
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~Living the Dream~
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It works dandy...after 5 sunders. It's better for bosses and trash that has a LOT of health. I find my time better spent shield slamming, bashing, and stunning for most instance trash. For bosses, I can sunder up (along with shield block/revenge), then pretty much just hit shield block and devastate the rest of the fight on everything up to where I am (mana tombs). Outside of aggro dumps I can't think of a single time I've lost aggro if I'm allowed to get my 3 sunders in before DPS starts.
That was my experience tanking with devestate just prior to BC. But I would like to see the numbers though - in comparing Devestate threat to heroic strike. In protection - we can take 6 rage off the cost of sunder arm - through 6 talents in two different areas. So this begs my next question, with 6 off the rage cost of sunder, even if 5 sunders are aleady in place - it might be optimal to spam sunders over anything else. We know threat from sunders can still take place after 5 sunders - and with the large rage reduction cost in the protection tree - I wonder how it stacks up vs. devestate. If you're not getting much rage I imagine sunder-spamming would be fine but the DPS contribution from devastate (and the threat contribution of that DPS on top of the sunders) can't be unnoticeable considering I'm doing 200-300-ish damage every 1.5 seconds in addition to my regular attacks instead of just spinning like a top reapplying sunders. With full protection spec (meaning -3 Rage to all abilities) I have more rage than I know what to do with on most bosses when they start kicking my ass. I've had a lot of times where I simply couldn't dump rage fast enough. Devastate doesn't work well on most trash since by the time you've got enough sunders on something to make use of it (considering you're usually tanking 2-4 things at once), the mob's already 90% dead. As for that survivability issue, we have a good, very well equipped Feral Druid in our guild who OTs and MTs all the time. My best friend is a holy-spec pally, and he says it's way easier to keep me alive. Go fig.
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Typhon
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1. Just because you're not the only idiot on this forum doesn't mean you're not still an idiot. ahhh, delicious irony. please take your self-aggrandizing jacking off somewhere, anywhere, else
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Ironwood
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I think that I am in fact Fabricated, since he's clearly having the same experience as me. I never have any rage problems at all - especially with some of the Fury talents that I have. Whenever I talk to a warrior that has rage problems, they're usually always Arms specced.
To which I lol.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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ClydeJr
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I just hit 70 last night with my arms warrior last night. I've main-tanked most everything up through the Shadow Lab (wiped several times on Murmur, us melee people kept not getting far enough away during his sonic blast). I haven't had much issues with tanking as an arms warrior, although most of the time I've been grouped with DPSers who are higher level than me so we can often burn stuff down quickly. I'm probably going to stay arms until I finish most of the solo quests and then I'll probably go protection. Right now I'm the highest warrior in my guild although there are 3 others not far behind.
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jpark
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With respect to the fury three - are you guys putting 5 talent points into extend the duration of your battleshouts by 50%?
I did nto think much of this until BC - (not high enough level to have it myself yet) - but that new warrior shout that gives the party almost 1000 hps for 2 minutes - seems worthwile extending the duration ?
Rage generation - talents in the increased critical and the chance of generating rage on each melee attack - I assume these are the two primary talents in the fury tree you are using to increase rage production as a protection warrior aye?
Some guys have argued that shield slam and devestate are perfect for warriors - since these attacks scale with the gear a warrior uses as he levels (e.g. unlike sunder armor). In the past I was not too crazy about shield slam - but with the better sheilds available at the higher end - considering this talent is now affected by the properites of the shield - may make it worthwhile as well.
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« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 08:09:07 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Ironwood
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Current Build.Shield slam is awesome as not only does it scale, but other equipment increasing your block value (not percentage block) scale it further. I don't see that Devastate scales anymore than HS tho... I think I may rework myself for the improved shout, but I'm not really a shouty guy. Commanding shout, however, is well worth it and can actually kill you if you get low on health and it runs out...
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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jpark
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I think I may rework myself for the improved shout, but I'm not really a shouty guy. Commanding shout, however, is well worth it and can actually kill you if you get low on health and it runs out...
Thanks. I am thinking of a scenario if you are looking at tough heroic 5 man fight (not done a heroic yet) and the party wants the commanding shout prior to battle. You hit blood rage (assuming there is not a trash mob nearby you can generate rage from) - buff the party - and now have 2 minutes. Problem is you blood rage is now on timer and will not be available for the next 2 minutes in the fight - which for a hard fight - would make me uneasy.
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Ironwood
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If you don't have enough rage to replenish a shout, then you're doing a very poor job of holding aggro.
Especially on Heroic mode. Those mobs should be BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.
:)
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.
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Resillience. Not a PvE stat Paelos.
You're going to have to do better than a simple comment to prove otherwise. It's frankly too dismissive based on not having the full scope of information. Does it have viability in 5 mans? Hell no, then again that's never been the benchmark of most specialized gear, which is all resilience happens to be. It's like Fire Resist gear, or shadow gear. The thing is nobody can evaluate what all the bosses are like at the top end because nobody really knows yet, but I'm putting my money on the fact that there will be more than a few crit happy bosses in large dungeons that will make resilience gear important. Also, I'm under the impression that resilience cuts down on all crits, not just melee. This would be especially helpful for a warrior against bosses that cast numerous types of spells (fire, shadow, arcane) to cut down on all spell crits instead of specializing in one resistance, since defense gear would be useless against spells.
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« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 10:15:10 AM by Paelos »
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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jpark
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If you don't have enough rage to replenish a shout, then you're doing a very poor job of holding aggro.
Especially on Heroic mode. Those mobs should be BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.
:)
Aggro control is not the problem per se - especially on a boss. But I don't find myself with extra rage - unless I get distracted - that rage bar does not get close to full. So I like having blood rage "in case" (an add etc.). I would like to avoid putting talents into extending the duration of shout though - so maybe it is avoidable. I just know my party of RL mates is going to LOVE commanding shout and anything I can do maximize it. Not done Heroics yet though. The thing is nobody can evaluate what all the bosses are like at the top end because nobody really knows yet, but I'm putting my money on the fact that there will be more than a few crit happy bosses in large dungeons that will make resilience gear important.
We (my friends and I) are betting this as well. We are expecting huge spike damage on bosses - from a variety of sources - criticals being one of them. This is inferred from the massive stamina increases we have seen ALL gear in BC - a big step function from WoW we have known. My green Fire resist ring of +20 is now replaced a by a ring of similar stats but also offers +15 stamina. The hp increase for warriors is massive even with greens - clearly a dramatic increase from the steady STA increases seen on gear up to 60 / Pre BC. That heal over time spells can now be stacked - up to 5 times - also supports the inference that this game has massive spike damage - possibly from criticals - in store for tanks et al.
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« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 10:47:21 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Fabricated
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~Living the Dream~
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If you don't have enough rage to replenish a shout, then you're doing a very poor job of holding aggro.
Especially on Heroic mode. Those mobs should be BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.
:)
Aggro control is not the problem per se - especially on a boss. But I don't find myself with extra rage - unless I get distracted - that rage bar does not get close to full. So I like having blood rage "in case" (an add etc.). I would like to avoid putting talents into extending the duration of shout though - so maybe it is avoidable. I just know my party of RL mates is going to LOVE commanding shout and anything I can do maximize it. Not done Heroics yet though. The thing is nobody can evaluate what all the bosses are like at the top end because nobody really knows yet, but I'm putting my money on the fact that there will be more than a few crit happy bosses in large dungeons that will make resilience gear important.
We (my friends and I) are betting this as well. We are expecting huge spike damage on bosses - from a variety of sources - criticals being one of them. This is inferred from the massive stamina increases we have seen ALL gear in BC - a big step function from WoW we have known. My green Fire resist ring of +20 is now replaced a by a ring of similar stats but also offers +15 stamina. The hp increase for warriors is massive even with greens - clearly a dramatic increase from the steady STA increases seen on gear up to 60 / Pre BC. That heal over time spells can now be stacked - up to 5 times - also supports the inference that this game has massive spike damage - possibly from criticals - in store for tanks et al. I never understood the whole HoT stacking thing. Does this mean a priest can just renew me 5 times and I suddenly have 5 renew ticks going off, or can I have a renew from each priest in the group?
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"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Lantyssa
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Hi Connie! Welcome to f13! I don't have much to add regarding Warriors since I'm a Druid. I can tank if I must, however I would rather let a Warrior do the tanking so I can play damage control when things go south. Go Warriors! I never understood the whole HoT stacking thing. Does this mean a priest can just renew me 5 times and I suddenly have 5 renew ticks going off, or can I have a renew from each priest in the group?
Five different healers.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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caladein
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Druids only have 2 forms of damage mitigation: Dodge, and High armor values.
Warriors have 4: Dodge, Block, Parry, and High Armor Values (throw in Periodic Spell Reflects for one more).
I really get tired of that argument, especially as a healer. Druids have higher Dodge then Warriors (to offset the Parry/Block loss a bit), but the important thing is the fact they can pretty easily approach the armor cap makes their damage mitigation a lot more consistant then a Warrior's. As a healer, I prefer a Druid tank because it makes my life a lot easier. On top of that, the Health bonus gives a lot more breathing room. A Druid's mitigation model for the most part is different not inferior to a Warrior's. Things like Spell Reflect are very handy (especially in Steamvaults for example), but in instances, Crushing/Glancing won't come into play because the bosses are 72, not 73 or Boss. Sorry for coming in late... it's just the "omg Warriors can Block/Parry" argument really annoys me.
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"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." - Ingmar"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" - tgr
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Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.
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Druids only have 2 forms of damage mitigation: Dodge, and High armor values.
Warriors have 4: Dodge, Block, Parry, and High Armor Values (throw in Periodic Spell Reflects for one more).
I really get tired of that argument, especially as a healer. Druids have higher Dodge then Warriors (to offset the Parry/Block loss a bit), but the important thing is the fact they can pretty easily approach the armor cap makes their damage mitigation a lot more consistant then a Warrior's. As a healer, I prefer a Druid tank because it makes my life a lot easier. On top of that, the Health bonus gives a lot more breathing room. A Druid's mitigation model for the most part is different not inferior to a Warrior's. Things like Spell Reflect are very handy (especially in Steamvaults for example), but in instances, Crushing/Glancing won't come into play because the bosses are 72, not 73 or Boss. Sorry for coming in late... it's just the "omg Warriors can Block/Parry" argument really annoys me. A warrior that doesn't have close to equal or more health than a druid has crap gear, imo. It's a highly gear dependant class, so generalities suck when comparing warriors to other classes. We have shit for spells, and most of our mitigations are directly related to gear, followed by spec. Armor on a druid is typically higher for sure by skills, so warriors never catch up. However, I'd like to find the druid who's mitigation makes up for the ridiculous amount of block/parry you can have in decent gear. I carry about 20% block, and 12% parry, and I'm doing it in ZERO pieces of my dungeon 3 set. Just quest rewards and random drops from bosses up to the Mechanar. The point is that people are making very certain statements about warriors and their viability when the average warrior gear will change those conditions in two months. Right now the sun revolves around the Earth in WoW. Call me in two months and see what we "know" about warriors.
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Ironwood
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Aggro control is not the problem per se - especially on a boss. But I don't find myself with extra rage - unless I get distracted - that rage bar does not get close to full. So I like having blood rage "in case" (an add etc.).
You confuse me. I can't shed Rage fast enough. I can't comment more than that because I literally don't understand your problem. I also can shift into Berserker and hit the Berseker Rage for another 6 seconds of extra rage if I start to get lower than 25 anyways. I am really starting to think that I need Enrage like a hole in the head and I would be better off taking deflection now. I'm also thinking on the improved shouts. So this thread was good for something ! Take Heart !
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.
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Aggro control is not the problem per se - especially on a boss. But I don't find myself with extra rage - unless I get distracted - that rage bar does not get close to full. So I like having blood rage "in case" (an add etc.).
You confuse me. I can't shed Rage fast enough. I can't comment more than that because I literally don't understand your problem. I also can shift into Berserker and hit the Berseker Rage for another 6 seconds of extra rage if I start to get lower than 25 anyways. I am really starting to think that I need Enrage like a hole in the head and I would be better off taking deflection now. I'm also thinking on the improved shouts. So this thread was good for something ! Take Heart ! Ironwood is right, i have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about if you're on a boss and can't find rage. Are you fighting kittens? I'm usually getting pounded like a hooker during Fleet Week, so I've got rage to burn as well.
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Ironwood
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It's not even bosses. I can't think of a single pull in the new instances where I don't have 3 guys beating on me, which is more than enough.
I think jpark needs to talk to his team.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Merusk
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Without being a shitheel about it, warriors in WoW aren't for everyone. I used to love - nay adore - being the tank in other games. However, I just can't pull it off in WoW. It's different enough and requires such a different thought process that I out and out suck at it and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Thus why I play Priest/ Hunter (and now shaman) much more often. My L60 warrior is now a bank toon, and likely will be for a long, long while, unless I decide to go DPS - which I'm fairly ok at.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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jpark
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Compared to Ironwoods build - I am deep protection - no fury. So right off the bat - there are rage generating features to Iron's build I don't have.
My take on builds is - I maximize not the use of the talents - but anything that incrementally increases my survivability. I have no linky, but pre BC I was 5 (parry)/ 0 Fury/ rest protection. Tanking in BWL (usually the off tank - not the MT) - I did not find myself with excess rage usually. I found I can spend what I get pretty quickly. That was my big question before tanking in this game - would I find my self with excess rage? The answer is no - I don't. Some tanks do - others don't (as I talked to these guys before I was raid capable).
One easy solution to rage generation is to "undergear". Have less resistance - I had FR 315 unbuffed pre BC - which was excessive for most fights - unless debuffs were taking place on FR. If I dropped that resistance - naturally rage generation occurred much more readily for FR fights (and so on - shadow, arcane etc.).
The other specs in my guild - usually arms - generated more rage for sure - but seem to have less survivability (my gear set was T1/T2).
Right now in BC I am arms - to level - and have not tried much of the new instance content. So I don't know outside of a few low level instances in BC how the fights really look. But pre BC - yup - I rarely had enough rage to hit shield slam. Our main tank in the guild - who also has close contact with the devs in WoW - and who was a former MT in EQ - was similar - he rarely had excess rage as well.
Zerker rage is a good suggestion. Will try that when I start tanking for "real" in BC (2 more levels to go!).
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 09:19:03 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Ironwood
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Really, the only additional rage I have over you is a 40% chance for 1 extra point on my attack...
I have my Berserker rage on a macro. It's really handy. You can shift stance, activate and then switch back. This will boost your rage generation a lot.
I would really love to see you play. I'm still not able to get my head around your problem.
(Also, 56 points in prot ? Are you high ? Some of those talents are totally fucking worthless....)
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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I can't see your spec from work, Ironwood, but if you have flurry, that adds rage when it procs because you are hitting more. Also, is there something in jpark's spec which is spammable?
I haven't played my warrior since the new specs came out, but I know that for some specs I was always waiting on some cooldown or another to spend my rage, so I would end up with a net gain most of the fight. In other specs, there was always something to spam, so I had to wait for enough rage to do things quite frequently.
Also things like the enemy's dodge% (for overpower) and (more pertient to tanks) how often you get to use revenge play a part.
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Witty banter not included.
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Chenghiz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 868
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Resillience. Not a PvE stat Paelos.
You're going to have to do better than a simple comment to prove otherwise. It's frankly too dismissive based on not having the full scope of information. Does it have viability in 5 mans? Hell no, then again that's never been the benchmark of most specialized gear, which is all resilience happens to be. It's like Fire Resist gear, or shadow gear. The thing is nobody can evaluate what all the bosses are like at the top end because nobody really knows yet, but I'm putting my money on the fact that there will be more than a few crit happy bosses in large dungeons that will make resilience gear important. Also, I'm under the impression that resilience cuts down on all crits, not just melee. This would be especially helpful for a warrior against bosses that cast numerous types of spells (fire, shadow, arcane) to cut down on all spell crits instead of specializing in one resistance, since defense gear would be useless against spells. This's actually been a point of discussion on the EJ boards. Essentially what it comes down to is that Resilience is overpriced in terms of item budget. For the same item cost as 316 resilience (around -11% crit and -22% crit damage) you could get 16% dodge, which would simply negate 16% of incoming damage. this topic is a pretty in-depth analysis of the item cost of resilience. [edit] Also, NPCs' spells cannot crit.
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 10:31:19 AM by Chenghiz »
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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Perhaps Chenghiz, but can you dodge spells? I don't think you can, and that's where I see the major utility of resilience gear, stopping spell crits and cutting damage.
Also, I particularly like the 50 prot, 11 fury build. In protection, I don't see the utility of Improved Disarm, Revenge, Shield Wall, and 1Her spec. Putting point in full prot is just throwing them away on things like that. In the 11 fury, i just go all shouts (booming voice, int. shout, piercing howl) since the majority of my early rage is covered by improved bloodrage.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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[edit] Also, NPCs' spells cannot crit. Perhaps Chenghiz, but can you dodge spells? I don't think you can, and that's where I see the major utility of resilience gear, stopping spell crits and cutting damage.
 Wzzzzzttt. Burrrrrrr. Does not compute.
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-Rasix
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Morat20
Terracotta Army
Posts: 18529
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Perhaps Chenghiz, but can you dodge spells? I don't think you can, and that's where I see the major utility of resilience gear, stopping spell crits and cutting damage.
Also, I particularly like the 50 prot, 11 fury build. In protection, I don't see the utility of Improved Disarm, Revenge, Shield Wall, and 1Her spec. Putting point in full prot is just throwing them away on things like that. In the 11 fury, i just go all shouts (booming voice, int. shout, piercing howl) since the majority of my early rage is covered by improved bloodrage.
Resiliance might not also be a gear choice for warriors -- but will be for PvP warriors, to irritate the fuck out of the glass cannon mages with their overreliance on crits and to deal with hunters (although at 70, I think Hunter crit is back down to 20% unless you want glass cannon mage problems....) Also, I'm not sure I'd buy the "NPC spells can't crit" thing -- unless there's a fundamental gameplay reason that they don't. "NPC spells currently do not crit" might be better.
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Dren
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2419
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Perhaps Chenghiz, but can you dodge spells? I don't think you can, and that's where I see the major utility of resilience gear, stopping spell crits and cutting damage.
Also, I particularly like the 50 prot, 11 fury build. In protection, I don't see the utility of Improved Disarm, Revenge, Shield Wall, and 1Her spec. Putting point in full prot is just throwing them away on things like that. In the 11 fury, i just go all shouts (booming voice, int. shout, piercing howl) since the majority of my early rage is covered by improved bloodrage.
Resiliance might not also be a gear choice for warriors -- but will be for PvP warriors, to irritate the fuck out of the glass cannon mages with their overreliance on crits and to deal with hunters (although at 70, I think Hunter crit is back down to 20% unless you want glass cannon mage problems....) Also, I'm not sure I'd buy the "NPC spells can't crit" thing -- unless there's a fundamental gameplay reason that they don't. "NPC spells currently do not crit" might be better. Exactly, just because they currently do not crit doesn't mean they won't at higher level content. It seems to me to be a perfect direction to go to make PvE "more difficult," and would make resilience viable from that perspective.
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