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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441140 times)
Hellinar
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Reply #560 on: May 31, 2007, 10:23:24 AM

It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.
What can you say to someone who believes every culture is American, or trying to be American. The "normal" ideas of customer service are shaped by the culture you are in. Coming from another rock with fish similar to Iceland, I think Sutro is dead on in his analysis.
TheDreamr
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Posts: 160


Reply #561 on: May 31, 2007, 10:59:51 AM

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

Sadly "hardcore" groups are about the only people who can effectively hold onto 0.0 territory these days, as evidenced by the rather spectacular fall of several alliances who'd "gone soft" ... and at that level any serious competition between groups is pretty much guaranteed to turn into ass-hattery sooner or later.

There is a lot more to eve than just territorial alliance ass-hattery, but if you want the 0.0 experience then you need to accept the politics and general bullshit that comes with it while you get fat off the "easy money".
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:04:27 AM by TheDreamr »

edit button addict.
SansWetware
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Reply #562 on: May 31, 2007, 11:16:12 AM

It was interesting and probably accurate, but I hesitate to call it (Sutro's post) dead on.  CCP is a global company with a global game with employees from all over the globe who live on at least 3 continents.  The Icelandic founders were MMO enthusiasts who studied game theory.  Customer service is a global endeavor and the models for a successful system are in place in almost every successful MMO (including EVE).  

CCP knows right and wrong, and what will and will not cause a shitstorm among their players.  T20 was not fired because he is a valuable employee.  They made an ethical decision to have him take his lumps, apologize to the community himself and keep his position in the company.  I can't argue that decision.  Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit.  

Icelandic isolation does not explain the bigger questions such as "why not remove the rigged BPO's as soon as they were found - and not only after the community went nutzo over them?"  Kieron's answer to that very questions was "I do not know - it was a bad decision."  They do know what good and bad CS decisions are.

Der Helm
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Reply #563 on: May 31, 2007, 11:25:20 AM

Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Fmar
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Reply #564 on: May 31, 2007, 11:30:18 AM

Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit.

Is this actually true?
Morat20
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Reply #565 on: May 31, 2007, 11:32:04 AM

Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.
Der Helm
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Reply #566 on: May 31, 2007, 11:35:10 AM

If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.

I think I remember that these billboards where "repeating" the news you see on the character selection screen. But that was months years ago. Never checked them after that.

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Simond
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Reply #567 on: May 31, 2007, 11:40:58 AM

Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.
It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Yoru
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Reply #568 on: May 31, 2007, 11:45:21 AM

Remember that this is the company who has billboards floating in their empire systems that will never move, change, or be updated because the guy who created them quit. 

Wow, I never noticed that.
If that's true -- and I have no knowledge about that either way -- it's probably just a matter of "not worth the time for someone to work out how they work". They're not broken, they add a bit of flavor, and it's just not worth anyone's time. It'll probably sit there until someone either comes up with a really good idea that requires work on the billboards, or some Dev gets a bug up his ass about it and spends a few weeks worth of lunch-breaks working it out.
It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.

That sort of crap happens in software all the time. "How does Widget X work?" "Dunno, Jimbob worked on it. He quit two years ago." "... crap."
Fmar
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Reply #569 on: May 31, 2007, 11:49:03 AM

That sort of crap happens in software all the time. "How does Widget X work?" "Dunno, Jimbob worked on it. He quit two years ago." "... crap."

Probably more than we know.
I remember reading a ww2online dev blog where he was complaining about something similar...
SansWetware
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Reply #570 on: May 31, 2007, 11:54:26 AM

They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.
Yoru
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Reply #571 on: May 31, 2007, 11:56:37 AM

They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.

If you're referring to Enslaver... he was an intern. And I don't think he was an engineering intern, at that.

You can turn the self-righteous indignance down a notch.  rolleyes
Simond
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Reply #572 on: May 31, 2007, 12:11:08 PM

*cough*T20*cough*  tongue

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Morat20
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Reply #573 on: May 31, 2007, 12:11:34 PM

It is true, from what I've seen in more than one place. The point is that sort of stuff really ought to be documented, or at the very least more than one person needs to know how they work. What if the sole person who understands how random_vital_piece_of_code actually works gets hit by a bus tomorrow? CCP will just stop updating that particular part of the game?

It's just another example that CCP still treats EVE as their hobby, instead of a business.
It probably is documented -- the question is "where". Pretty much every software project ends up like that. All the main features are documented, but there's tons of small stuff that's only loosely documented, or documented solely in the code itself. If it's something that was added mostly because "someone thought it was cool, and it was obviously not going to interfere with the main game" then it's even less likely to be documented on a high level.

The EVE billboards seem pretty likely to be one of those "Someone had an idea, or some intern god assigned to do it because it wasn't critical" objects that's probably only documented in the source code itself. If they wanted to get rid of billboards entirely, they probably could very easily. If they wanted to do something more with them, it requires someone wading in there and finding the relevent code, then working out what invokes the object, then working out how long it'll take to change. It's extra work when there are more critical issues on the table.
SansWetware
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Reply #574 on: May 31, 2007, 12:17:42 PM

They are in the most highly populated areas of the game.  They are giant objects that do nothing and were supposed to be pretty cool.  It's an eyesore and embarrassment.  If a developer has time to lead an alliances capital fleet he can look into the giant eyesore billboards.  Especially if he is a company founder.

If you're referring to Enslaver... he was an intern. And I don't think he was an engineering intern, at that.

You can turn the self-righteous indignance down a notch.  rolleyes

I wasn't referring to Enslaver.  What happened to that guy was wrong.  If I came across self-righteous then I'm sorry.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #575 on: May 31, 2007, 01:20:37 PM

It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.
What can you say to someone who believes every culture is American, or trying to be American. The "normal" ideas of customer service are shaped by the culture you are in. Coming from another rock with fish similar to Iceland, I think Sutro is dead on in his analysis.

You see that's exactly why it wasn't worth getting into, if we make allowances for nationality on the internet then you have to judge people in part by their nationality.  It doesn't matter how accurate his comments were, the conversation that will result will be unpleasant.  I'm not from America btw.
Ironwood
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Reply #576 on: May 31, 2007, 02:06:51 PM

No, you're a dog with a flatcap.

KNEEL.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #577 on: May 31, 2007, 02:15:08 PM

To further illustrate how stupid and offensive the nationality discussion could quickly get.

I'm not kneeling for you, from my understanding of the Scottish stereotype, I'd likely only get a tiny biscuit.
Endie
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Reply #578 on: May 31, 2007, 02:22:25 PM

Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?

My blog: http://endie.net

Twitter - Endieposts

"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
DraconianOne
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Reply #579 on: May 31, 2007, 02:31:30 PM

Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?

And your women (first night only), and your freedom and your fealty.  But not those silly skirt things you wear.





Hold on... I'm Welsh... what the fuck do I have to be proud about?*

*Apart from Kathryn Jenkins that is.  And beating England in the rugby this year. 

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Furiously
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Reply #580 on: May 31, 2007, 02:37:04 PM

No, you're a dog with a flatcap.

KNEEL.

I made a new avatar for you to steal. Just let me know when I can stop using it... And for everyone else... KNEEL

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #581 on: May 31, 2007, 02:40:59 PM

Hoots.  Jings.  Crivvens.

You want all our oil and a bigger biscuit?

Pumping oil out is bad but it could be worse like, what they do to our sea.

Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.
DraconianOne
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Posts: 2905


Reply #582 on: May 31, 2007, 02:43:50 PM

[
Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.

I used to swim in the Irish Sea nearly every day when I was growing up.  That'll be why it was so warm.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #583 on: May 31, 2007, 02:50:50 PM

And why you have a healthy glow about you!

"Me am play gods"
Endie
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Reply #584 on: May 31, 2007, 03:08:49 PM

[
Quote
Ireland is the country most affected by the UK's nuclear industry. Sellafield is only 60 miles away from the Irish coast and has been pumping 2 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the Irish Sea every day, making the Irish Sea the most radioactive sea in the world.

I used to swim in the Irish Sea nearly every day when I was growing up.  That'll be why it was so warm.

Tuh, you were lucky!  I used to eat mussels from the Solway coast that I gathered myself.  And my father a nuclear physicist, too  rolleyes

And my apologies, arthur, for the vile calumny.  If i had known, I would have made a joke about ski-masks and AK47s instead.

My blog: http://endie.net

Twitter - Endieposts

"What else would one expect of Scottish sociopaths sipping their single malt Glenlivit [sic]?" Jack Thompson
Morat20
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Reply #585 on: May 31, 2007, 03:18:24 PM

Hold on... I'm Welsh... what the fuck do I have to be proud about?*

*Apart from Kathryn Jenkins that is.  And beating England in the rugby this year. 
You have the weirdest spelled language in all the world? And you like were really good with longbows, or something? And you're historically less pissy at the English than anyone else in the area?

It's almost brag-worthy.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #586 on: May 31, 2007, 03:46:55 PM

And my apologies, arthur, for the vile calumny.  If i had known, I would have made a joke about ski-masks and AK47s instead.

No problem, mercury tilt switch under your chair, you'll probably be fine, just don't lean back.
Hellinar
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Reply #587 on: May 31, 2007, 04:33:16 PM

You see that's exactly why it wasn't worth getting into, if we make allowances for nationality on the internet then you have to judge people in part by their nationality.  It doesn't matter how accurate his comments were, the conversation that will result will be unpleasant.  I'm not from America btw.
I'd concede your point about nationality discussion potentially getting nasty. How about community size? In my locally run favorite coffee bar, "known" customers get better customer service than less well known ones. The local branch of Starbucks follows a more rigorous "all customers are equal" service model. Playing favorites with your customers works for some businesses on a small scale, but doesn't scale well. I think CCP has grown too far too fast for their culture to catch up.
Sutro
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Reply #588 on: May 31, 2007, 05:39:58 PM

(shrug) Nation - or more accurately, culture - of origin is a huge component of how we relate with others. If we can't talk in civil terms about cultural differences and how they effect our relations in virtual worlds, we're ignoring one of the largest, if not the largest, components of the equation. Specifically in CCP's case, they react so unusually and so divergent from what a NA company in the same position would do that there seems to be more at stake than just "well, they're weird."

I don't believe nationality is this "sacred cow" of the Internet that we all have to look past. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it and can't talk about it civilly, just don't talk about it.

Besides, I'm not claiming that cultural differential is the entire story here with CCP. A lack of a basic understanding of PR is probably a larger share of the issue. Threatening legal action against the leadership of a noticeable percentage of your customers is almost never the right move.

-Sutro

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #589 on: May 31, 2007, 06:23:45 PM

Now, I know absolutely nothing about Icelandic culture,

(shrug) Nation - or more accurately, culture - of origin is a huge component of how we relate with others. If we can't talk in civil terms about cultural differences and how they effect our relations in virtual worlds, we're ignoring one of the largest, if not the largest, components of the equation. Specifically in CCP's case, they react so unusually and so divergent from what a NA company in the same position would do that there seems to be more at stake than just "well, they're weird."

I don't believe nationality is this "sacred cow" of the Internet that we all have to look past. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it and can't talk about it civilly, just don't talk about it.

Besides, I'm not claiming that cultural differential is the entire story here with CCP. A lack of a basic understanding of PR is probably a larger share of the issue. Threatening legal action against the leadership of a noticeable percentage of your customers is almost never the right move.

-Sutro

I'm perfectly happy to talk about whatever you want.  But you wanted to relate how CCP deals with players based on the culture of Iceland while admitting you know nothing about Icelandic culture.  You already knew the answer "not well" and then justified the answer, it stuck me as being totally pointless. 

It doesn't matter if you are 100% correct on all your points, you may well be, it's still mental masturbation and easily offensive.  As I imagine we don't have many people from Iceland posting here, I thought I'd just point that out.

Not trying to be a dick here, but my Australian friend used to have great fun in England being rude and blunt.  He believed (rightly or wrongly) that English people expected that from Australians and excused his rude behaviour easily, so in the end it just encouraged him to be rude and blunt to them.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #590 on: May 31, 2007, 06:37:46 PM

Quote

It doesn't matter if you are 100% correct on all your points, you may well be, it's still mental masturbation and easily offensive.  As I imagine we don't have many people from Iceland posting here, I thought I'd just point that out.

In related news, Bjork said she'd kick his ass.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Sutro
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Reply #591 on: May 31, 2007, 06:56:49 PM

Well, my sphere of experience in forming that hypothesis includes researching postings about the social environment of Iceland, taking what I know personally from study about countries and communities that have demographics and geographies similar to Iceland, and the generally accepted sociological posit that a company's culture, regardless of if it is international or not, tends to reflect that of its founders' culture. (If you question that foundational argument, I'll need to organize my citations on the topic and PM you, let me know.)

Have I lived in Iceland or been to Iceland? No.

Did I write that post just because I figured I could get away with it since there's no one (or very few) people from Iceland who will see it and throw the bullshit flag? No. Although, I'd welcome anyone who has personal experience with Icelandic corporate and social culture to call me a pompous dick and that I'm wrong.

Taking what you know and synthesizing it into conclusions is the foundation of social research, even if you have no personal experience with it. Some of our most celebrated theories (granted, they're based on a greater body of evidence than I'm citing here) include things that no one can have personal experience with - black holes, relativity, etc. At the end of the day, they're still educated guesses, which is all I'm claiming.

The argument that, "Since no one we know of here has any personal experience with Icelandic culture, we can't talk about any effect it might have," sets an unacceptable bound on our thinkable thought when trying to determine why CCP relates to the playerbase the way it does.

-Sutro
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 06:58:27 PM by Sutro »

SansWetware
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Reply #592 on: May 31, 2007, 07:14:15 PM

Goonfleet had a few Icelanders and a good many members went to the fanfest.  They stayed at two corp member's houses who lived on the island.  Their opinion of CCP is pretty damn low - at least it was the last I saw one of them post.  We never got into whether the culture had anything to do with their perceived corruption.

The most I've read about the place is one of David Rakoff's essays talking about the folk tales regarding gnomes.
Sutro
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Reply #593 on: May 31, 2007, 07:58:06 PM


Chimpy
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Reply #594 on: May 31, 2007, 07:59:54 PM

The turn this thread has taken in the last few hours is quite intruiging.


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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