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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Eve Online  |  Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!  (Read 441106 times)
Big Gulp
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Reply #525 on: May 30, 2007, 07:17:12 PM

And there, you have captured the essence of it.  How you answer that question is a sort of Rorschach test for your attitude towards the "virtual society" viewpoint of MMO's, and for online communities in general.  If you're on one side of that divide, nothing the other side says makes any sense at all.

That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.
Ratadm
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Reply #526 on: May 30, 2007, 07:21:13 PM

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody in BoB wanted pos bowling to be fixed. I haven't even heard of ET bowling any ships since the first round when he knocked out that afk carrier. The real reason they decided to fix it is because the Chowdown group has been bowling every POS in the north for a week. I'm sure they were bombarded with petitions about it. 
Dianabolic and Blacklight would appear to disagree
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #527 on: May 30, 2007, 07:40:12 PM

That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.
Oh, I understand it too, although my interpretation is probably less charitable than yours.  But, think about it for a minute.  Got any money on you?  Take a look at it.  The *only* thing that makes those bits of rag-paper and shiny metal of value is our agreement as a society to treat them as if they were.

If it's not food, fighting, or fucking, it's all virtual, all a product of social consensus so strong as to acquire the power of fact.  Politics, religion, money, property rights, even the idea of "family" is pretty damned hard to pin to something solid past the first degree or so of blood relationship.

Most of the 0.0 population of Eve exists inside of a "magic circle" of mutual agreement like that.  And goons are despised because they puncture the circle at every opportunity.  Really, they're playing a different game, just as virtual.  But they keep score in their game by how many people outside of their own magic circle that they piss off.

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
Merusk
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Reply #528 on: May 30, 2007, 08:36:27 PM

'We don't like the way you metagame, so it's ok for us to cheat."

Really, Dave, you've gotten so close you haven't dunk the kool aid, you're pissing it.  This game is obviously too damn important to you, or you simply wouldn't be this worked-up about any of it.  Nobody's changing their mind here, and the majority opinion seems against you yet you return time and again to try and prove your 'side' isn't a bunch of cheating asshats, it's the OTHER guys doing the same thing that are the cheating asshats.

It's fucking gold.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #529 on: May 30, 2007, 08:50:05 PM

I never said Goons were cheaters (asshats, maybe).  RA, yes, but they don't deny it either.  And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, just providing my own commentary on the whole drama.

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
SansWetware
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Reply #530 on: May 30, 2007, 09:03:24 PM

That very response makes me understand why Goonfleet likes griefing people like you.
Oh, I understand it too, although my interpretation is probably less charitable than yours.  But, think about it for a minute.  Got any money on you?  Take a look at it.  The *only* thing that makes those bits of rag-paper and shiny metal of value is our agreement as a society to treat them as if they were.

If it's not food, fighting, or fucking, it's all virtual, all a product of social consensus so strong as to acquire the power of fact.  Politics, religion, money, property rights, even the idea of "family" is pretty damned hard to pin to something solid past the first degree or so of blood relationship.

Most of the 0.0 population of Eve exists inside of a "magic circle" of mutual agreement like that.  And goons are despised because they puncture the circle at every opportunity.  Really, they're playing a different game, just as virtual.  But they keep score in their game by how many people outside of their own magic circle that they piss off.

--Dave

Ok you're very wrong here.  I have not logged in for months, and only read ScrapHeap, the goonfleet private forums, and Eve-O, but I know that BoB are despised.  They are not inside some magic circle of understanding.  Players do not sit around holding hands, passing the peace-pipe and saying "Yes, brother, we welcome your attack and the eventual taking of our space with open arms.  Come join us and we will dance as you use stolen passwords to off-line our PoS.  We will sit and smile while you shoot our Titan with a ship 1/1000th it's value 1/2 second before it logs off so the pilot may unknowingly go to bed while you kill it unpiloted.  What's that?  Free BPO's from the developer?  Never mind it friend, for you bathe with us in the sanctified waters of virtual realism."

Goonfleet is not crashing some party of goodwill full of players quietly nodding in acceptance that BoB is kicking their shit in using any under-handed, shifty, sneaky method.  They are just the new entity using those tactics, and the OLD entity is pissed that they have to have a meta-game competition.

That you reverted back to trying to explain the essence of reality in a discussion centered around game corruption and cheating is telling.
NiX
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Reply #531 on: May 30, 2007, 09:10:19 PM

Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?
Krakrok
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Reply #532 on: May 30, 2007, 09:28:07 PM

This is why the goons lost. Dev hacks is just another excuse.

Hey, as long as we're nerding it up and posting killmails.

This one was pretty funny.
SansWetware
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Reply #533 on: May 30, 2007, 09:29:44 PM

Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?

I ran my mouth a little bit...

Well EVE itself is kinda segmented.  A lot of players have no idea about any of the cheating-allegation stuff.  They never venture into the areas of the game that are player controlled.  

A lot of others "pay" by using the in-game currency to buy time cards (which have been purchased from CCP or an affiliate).

But yeah, I got your meaning.  I think many are in the mindset that they hope the game will clean itself up - and want to stick around to be on top when it does.

It will be interesting to see, when another economic/PvP based game emerges, whether or not it has the same drama swirling around it.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #534 on: May 30, 2007, 09:55:59 PM

Ok you're very wrong here.  I have not logged in for months, and only read ScrapHeap, the goonfleet private forums, and Eve-O, but I know that BoB are despised.  They are not inside some magic circle of understanding.  Players do not sit around holding hands, passing the peace-pipe and saying "Yes, brother, we welcome your attack and the eventual taking of our space with open arms.  Come join us and we will dance as you use stolen passwords to off-line our PoS.  We will sit and smile while you shoot our Titan with a ship 1/1000th it's value 1/2 second before it logs off so the pilot may unknowingly go to bed while you kill it unpiloted.  What's that?  Free BPO's from the developer?  Never mind it friend, for you bathe with us in the sanctified waters of virtual realism."

Goonfleet is not crashing some party of goodwill full of players quietly nodding in acceptance that BoB is kicking their shit in using any under-handed, shifty, sneaky method.  They are just the new entity using those tactics, and the OLD entity is pissed that they have to have a meta-game competition.

That you reverted back to trying to explain the essence of reality in a discussion centered around game corruption and cheating is telling.
It's telling that the discussion of cheating wasn't going anywhere, so I was looking deeper.  Yeah, BoB has pushed the boundaries on metagaming, and doesn't really have a lot of moral high ground to claim.  But BoB wasn't the target with the most to lose on this latest round, that was CCP, and I'm trying to explain that there's a boundary that was crossed when that happened, one that is clear to many people but completely transparent to the Goons, and *why* that is so.  The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Believe it or not, my primary interest in Eve isn't because I love internet spaceships, I don't like most of the actual gameplay.  Sneaking around in a covert or blockade runner can be fun, but the combat leaves me cold.  The only way of making money that doesn't drive me bugfuck nuts with boredom is playing the markets.  But the politics, diplomacy, and other social interactions are *fascinating*.

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
Drogo
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Reply #535 on: May 30, 2007, 11:20:34 PM

First to answer another poster it's hard to make a distinction between targeting BoB and CCP when they MSN each other when other alliances are not allowed to. It kind of makes them appear to be connected. You can spin it all you like and hate GS all you like, but the fact still remains that the bond between BoB and CCP stinks to high heaven. The term Band of Developers was not created because there was no link between the two or because the developers have distanced themselves from that alliance. The exact opposite is true, they have been closely connected for a long time and even after the T20 scandal, CCP employees continue to be closely connected to BoB as proven by statements of high ranking BoB officials.

Secondly why has the guy involved in the firing of the ISD man and his IRC chat with him not been publicly discussed, reprimanded and/or fired? CCP was very forthcoming with all the other allegations, but did nothing to address an employee jumping into the IRC chat right after an incident happened with BoB. The fact that a petition was also filed does not address the issue of the swiftness that such an issue was addressed or how quickly a decision was made when most regular petitions take weeks to be dealt with and he was addressed almost immediately and banned within three hours. The issue is even spoken about in the IRC chat, with the head of the ISD department but CCP is completely silent on that issue. Why does BoB have instant access to petitions if no one else does? The petition may have been the final result that got him fired, but it does not explain the employee being in IRC chat right after the incident happened and BoB said they would get on MSN to take care of it.

You can tinfoil hat this situation all you want, but CCP has obviously not cut its ties to BoB which should have been done as soon as the T20 incident came to light. There is no defense for a company that had a developer that got cheating for an alliance to have other developers still in that alliance, helping that alliance or even being on MSN with that alliance. All ties should have been severed, but apparently CCP prefers to side with their alliance of friends rather than provide an even playing field.

CCP is the problem here, not BoB or GS. You cannot blame GS for pointing out possible corruption within CCP after CCP has already proven to have cheated for BoB and then lied about it. If someone in your company cheats and the company covers that up, then the company is as guilty as the person. You cannot say that T20 cheated, but CCP didn't after they lied about it. CCP has messed up before and in trying to get answers about whether they messed up again through threadnoughts, going to outside sources and any other means is not an attempt to destroy the company or game when the company does not respond to petitions and deletes threads. There is no other way to get their attention. If CCP would deal with allegations rather than shoving them under the rug then they would not have these problems.

CCP should have answered the petition or locked the initial thread and said they would look into it, but not delete it. The reason CCP had a rough weekend is because CCP handled the situation badly and continues to handle it badly. The Goons may or may not be the bane of EVE as some suggest, but it does not change the fact that CCP did not and has not come completely clean on their own improper behavior yet again. Painting the Goons as a perpetrator does not cleanse CCP of its wrongdoing.

The problems in CCP that were brought to light this weekend are not limited to the allegations from GS. The dev involved in the IRC chat involving the ISD person should have to publicly explain his actions and involvement as T20 did, the issue of Sharkbait and the screenshots shown about him and his unprofessional behavior should be dealt with, the GM that dealt personally with the petition about his misconduct should be explained and the community manager that belittled some parts of the community and then threatened a lawsuit against paying customers should be looking for a new job. CCP has tons of problems in its current workforce that need to be dealt with and explaining it all as a GS problem that will be washed away when they leave is a very naive view. CCP needs to do some serious house cleaning, set up a serious code of conduct for its employees, and actually have the IA department do its job, not just react to allegations after they become a problem on the forums. It is a testament to CCP's inability to host a fair game that they actually have to have an IA department. What is worse is that the job of the IA department seems to be to find ways of explaining inappropriate behavior rather than disciplining employees that break the rules.

If CCP does not already have it they should provide all employees with a strict job description and a code of conduct on how they can and cannot deal with, interact and refer to paying customers. Secondly, if they have such a code they should fire anyone who breaches this code of conduct. This should be a very simple policy that every other MMO company seems to adhere to. I guess CCP is just afraid that they would be unable to run their game if they fired everyone in their company who did not know how to act appropriately on the job. If their has been a smear campaign this past weekend it has been by CCP. CCP really needs to clean their own glass house before they start throwing stones at others. Blaming GS is like a child blaming the bumps on the skin for giving him chicken pocks. They may be irritating, but they are merely the symptom, not the cause. CCP is the real cause of all its problems.
SansWetware
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Reply #536 on: May 30, 2007, 11:27:46 PM

It's telling that the discussion of cheating wasn't going anywhere, so I was looking deeper.  Yeah, BoB has pushed the boundaries on metagaming, and doesn't really have a lot of moral high ground to claim.  But BoB wasn't the target with the most to lose on this latest round, that was CCP, and I'm trying to explain that there's a boundary that was crossed when that happened, one that is clear to many people but completely transparent to the Goons, and *why* that is so.  The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Believe it or not, my primary interest in Eve isn't because I love internet spaceships, I don't like most of the actual gameplay.  Sneaking around in a covert or blockade runner can be fun, but the combat leaves me cold.  The only way of making money that doesn't drive me bugfuck nuts with boredom is playing the markets.  But the politics, diplomacy, and other social interactions are *fascinating*.

--Dave
[/quote]

Dave, Goons are tremendously engaged in the game of EvE.  That Titan Manifesto was a labor of love by one of their most engaged players.  They created a portrait pack (considered illegal at the time but impossible to catch) that was such a good idea that CCP adopted it (the idea).  

The whole "Goons in Space" thing they trumpeted was entirely addressing the old guard/new guard struggle that exists.  When I first began playing I got constant crap because I was in goonfleet, was in 0.0, and had only been active for a couple weeks.  I was a "stain" on the game before goons even became the goons many of the playerbase knows today.  The idea was that "the old guard won't accept us, so we'll just accept each other."  

There was an "attack" on CCP because more shady actions came to light and they refused to be anything other than cloak-and-dagger in their resolving of the issues.  They chose to ignore questions and delete threads outright when faced with questions regarding their handling of the game and it backfired.  People (not just goons) saw that it took the community going apeshit for CCP to even bat an eye last time they were (correctly) accused of dev-player collusion.  Hence the shitstorm.

It was likely an over-reaction, but the questions raised deserved answers none-the-less.  The most deserving of those is still hanging out there with no reply.  By the by, the first group to bring up the whole ordeal was someone (SMASH) who read the goonfleet boards via spy and posted what they read there on the EvE-O forums.  It started a chain of deleted posts and Goonfleet went to threadnaught mode.  They've done it before and it has worked.  The whole DIGG/Slashdot/get it blogged/inform game mags thing was also done last time.  If anything, it is just weird that a group (of my friends) that has such a low opinion of a game company would still play their game.  

Most goons share your love of the political landscape.  When I was playing it seemed like ten percent or so of us were lawyers (Remedial, Mittani, others are lawyers and many are in law school) who couldn't wait to button up our suit jackets and play diplomat.

(if something is clear to one group and transparent to the other than they are on the same page!... but I knew whatcha meant)    




Ubvman
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Reply #537 on: May 31, 2007, 01:36:35 AM

In fact, several Devs and GM's have been fired for such activities.  T20 is apparently one of the founders, and as a stockholder somewhat difficult to fire.  Back to the question: What would be sufficient evidence to convince you?  Keep in mind that "has lots of people convinced they are cheaters in an internet spaceships game" is probably not grounds for summary wholesale terminations under Icelandic law.

--Dave

T20 - That a founder and stockholder found nothing wrong in blatantly cheating in his own game says a lot about the present CCP management position. The rot goes all the way to the top.

While we're on the subject of those quaint Icelandic socialist laws, what does it say about, "The volume and timing of these near-simultaneous references is no coincidence: we were the target of a carefully constructed and well-timed social engineering effort by one of the largest player groups in our community." Uh.... I kinda pity the CCP lawyer foo thats gonna have to write out the legal papers describing "threadnaughts", "goonfleet asshat metagaming", "Slashdots comments below your threshold",  "Wikipedia WP:POV postings", "POS Bowling" etc. I dunno, maybe they hope to scare 10 year old kids?

CCP threatening a lawsuit is as laughable as any forum warrior armchair-attorney lawsuit threats. 
Endie
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WWW
Reply #538 on: May 31, 2007, 01:37:41 AM

It's interesting that the best posts in this thread in the last couple of days have been by newbies: Drogo, Sutro and Sanswetware.

My blog: http://endie.net

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Wolf
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Reply #539 on: May 31, 2007, 01:40:59 AM

Can anyone without bias explain to me how there's still appeal to this bullshit? Honestly, the fuck is wrong with some of you people? I'm used to some of the stupid shit that flies about this place, but if you really take EvE this seriously...

Also, at what point did we not consider a MMO company creating an IA department just fucking retarded?

I wrote like 300 words. Than I decided it's not worth it. Honesly - you either like it and stay subbed, or you don't and unsub. Keep in mind that unsubbing will have nothing to do with this or the previous scandal. It will be because you don't like the grind.

Also I was allied to GF back when they were created. I used to like them. I no longer do, and that has nothing to do with CCP's blog. It has to do with the fucking attitude of their members posting on these boards. Why everyone ignored this post is beyond me. I will not read, neither post in this thread any more.

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #540 on: May 31, 2007, 02:00:34 AM

Why everyone ignored this post is beyond me.

It wasn't ignored but what can you say to someone who believes normal rules of customer service might not apply if you happen to live in Iceland.  Iceland, oh different, shiny, expanding rock, fish.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #541 on: May 31, 2007, 02:04:08 AM

fofofofo

GM Sunshine > stop spamming local like you did just now
Didn't that GM wind up being one of your enemies too?

Maybe not sure, are you possibly thinking about GM Enslaver?
Endie
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WWW
Reply #542 on: May 31, 2007, 02:06:23 AM

Why everyone ignored this post is beyond me. I will not read, neither post in this thread any more.

Far from ignoring it I actually blogged about it.  I thought it was an excellent attempt to look at the cultural and sociological reasons why behaviour that is unacceptable in other countries might seem justifiable to some in CCP.  I have a few Icelandic friends here in Edinburgh (in Scotland we're as close to Iceland as anyone bar the Faroes), and I'm looking forward to discussing it with them.

I've been to Iceland, by the way.  Spun right, I reckon that should get me into BoB.

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Reg
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Reply #543 on: May 31, 2007, 02:10:49 AM

How dare these new people post on MY MESSAGE BOARD! They are soiling my magic circle.
Chenghiz
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Reply #544 on: May 31, 2007, 02:17:14 AM

The goons are not really engaged in the game of Eve to begin with, so they see no distinction between targetting BoB and going after CCP.

Goons don't hate CCP. They like EVE. They like the game they play; that's why they play it. I think that is a pretty important and indeed major difference, and I'm surprised you didn't see it yourself.
Simond
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Reply #545 on: May 31, 2007, 02:51:18 AM

Yeah, if we hated EVE we'd just quit (probably after undocking a couple of hundred smartbombing battleships and camping the Jita undock). We like EVE...we just hate dev corruption.

Unfortunately, it looks like you can't get one without the other and neither CCP nor BoB (and their pets) seem to want to change that. Sad Panda
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 02:57:11 AM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Ironwood
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Reply #546 on: May 31, 2007, 02:55:08 AM

I think we're done.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Nebu
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Reply #547 on: May 31, 2007, 02:56:48 AM

Is it too early to start hoping for a complete server wipe?  I'd actually go back to EvE if everyone had to start fresh. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ubvman
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Reply #548 on: May 31, 2007, 03:11:58 AM

If you're going to wrap this up I think this just about sums up the situation vis-a-vis CCP:

(I got it from Lum's blog comment area (credit Ross Smith - works for me...)

First corollary of Hanson's Law: "sufficiently advanced incompetence (or stupidity) is indistinguishable from malice."
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #549 on: May 31, 2007, 03:40:37 AM

Update from the goon meeting last night, change in direction, back to basics.  Those that are staying are going to try and have some fun, I'm going to stick around for a while and see what happens. 

CCP also contacted goon leadership yesterday wanting to know the names of the person/s involved in writing the two goon open letters to CCP.  No clue if they want to sue them, ban them from the game or something else.

Quote
[23:43:47] Jefe Grande > CCP Morpheus > Hello. Anyone in contact with Mittani / Remedial at this moment?
[23:44:24] KIATolon > jeffe, where is that
[23:44:26] KIATolon > also X UP
[23:44:31] Jefe Grande > KZF
[23:44:43] KIATolon > tell them to convo me
[23:44:49] KIATolon > in fact no
[23:44:51] Jefe Grande > rgr
[23:44:51] KIATolon > tell them to msn me

CCP apparently refused the offer to communicate about it via msn.
Megrim
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Reply #550 on: May 31, 2007, 05:48:25 AM

Is it too early to start hoping for a complete server wipe?  I'd actually go back to EvE if everyone had to start fresh. 

Oh god yes. I actually think they should do that sort of thing on a yearly basis.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 05:49:56 AM by Megrim »

One must bow to offer aid to a fallen man - The Tao of Shinsei.
Reg
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Reply #551 on: May 31, 2007, 05:52:07 AM

I could live with an asset wipe but not a full character reset.
Megrim
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Reply #552 on: May 31, 2007, 05:56:11 AM

Yea, yea, that's what i'd meant. Let people keep their skill points but clear everything else.

One must bow to offer aid to a fallen man - The Tao of Shinsei.
Simond
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Reply #553 on: May 31, 2007, 06:04:35 AM

Yeah, a full wipe would be a Bad Thing as it is significantly easier to get to anchorable POSes, skill-and-money wise, than it is to get to dreads (see: the Chinese server where one alliance does control all of 0.0 because they out-spammed their enemies before anyone could stop them).

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Miasma
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Reply #554 on: May 31, 2007, 08:23:43 AM

That state of the goonion thing is out now, kind of makes goonswarm sound like a bunch of assholes (proud of it though).  I already know BoB are assholes.  CCP are clearly assholes.

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.
Der Helm
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Reply #555 on: May 31, 2007, 08:27:56 AM

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

You have to be an asshole to enjoy it.


I just resubbed.  embarassed

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
SansWetware
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Reply #556 on: May 31, 2007, 08:29:15 AM

That state of the goonion thing is out now, kind of makes goonswarm sound like a bunch of assholes (proud of it though).  I already know BoB are assholes.  CCP are clearly assholes.

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

If nothing else, they are all comfortable with one another.
Simond
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Reply #557 on: May 31, 2007, 08:57:15 AM

Going back to the POS bowling thing, guess which alliance got their first ever supercap (a mothership) today?  :-D
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 09:01:10 AM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Reg
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Reply #558 on: May 31, 2007, 10:11:01 AM

Quote
Going back to the POS bowling thing, guess which alliance got their first ever supercap (a mothership) today? 
All I can say is they better be in my goddam magic circle or there's gonna be hell to pay.
Morat20
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Reply #559 on: May 31, 2007, 10:15:50 AM

That's a lot of assholes, don't know how anyone can play this.

You have to be an asshole to enjoy it.


I just resubbed.  embarassed
CCP knows drama. :) TNT should sue.
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