EvE Devs play with BoB. Investigation in progress....New Scandal page 9!

[Comstar]

The original threads were locked, but after a Goonfleet uprising, one was opened here.

Bascialy Kugutsumen (eve spy/hacker) has uncovrered evidence that BoB had 1-2 or more CCP devs (not just GMs) in thier allience (one was a cap ship fleet commander, one donated all his tech 2 BPOs) and BoB knew it.

This post on Scrapheap Challange explains it. The whole story is on Kugutsumen's blog. BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HIS BLOG: do not register on it, because he will use it to hack into your fourms/account/eve account/computer/ebay account whatever.  For those worried about it, the scrapheap challange thread mostly has the story (not the later parts, where you discover that BoB knew about a CCP roleplaying event in 2005(?), or where Kugustumen tries to have himeself bribed by SirMolle for the cost of a Mothership or he'll keep posting. He's pure slime, and admits it happily (Kugustumen I mean, Molle may be slime but dosn't admit to it).

Only thing this scandel is missing is sex, and it would have the trifecta.

Edit by Trippy: fixed title

[Trippy]

If Kugustsumen is evil why should people believe what he says about BoB and CCP?

[Raging Turtle]

Post in alliances says Eve staff is investigating. 

Why the hell am I up at 3:30?

[5150]

Lol, coming hot on the heels of that Eve-TV guy who was in BOB/ASCN scandel where he accidentally used his Eve-TV account to post Cyvoks 'I'm leaving ASCN' post and then tried to cover it up and change it to his BOB account

[ajax34i]

Been in a guild with possibly a WoW dev or GM, sometimes petitions would get resolved way fast (like, 5 min response time for resolving an Onyxia-bugged-loot issue), but otherwise I didn't see anything suspicious (not that I would be able to).  Devs play their own games, nothing new, and no they don't always follow their behavior procedures to the letter.  Who cares.

Take the devs and the BPO's away from BoB, will it diminish their power and influence in any way?  Not really.  The little guy who just joined the game still has no chance to ever get to the level of gameplay that these guys operate at.

Some people will lose their jobs, some will be banned for misconduct and/or for creating drama instead of quietly petitioning, and that'll be that.

[Evangolis]

Is there any evidence of actual misconduct, or are people arguing that devs shouldn't  play their own game?

(Sorry, not going to log onto a web site where the owner attempts to hack visitors to get information, which, by definition, would be from an untrustworthy source.)

[ajax34i]

From what I've been reading on the Scrapheap site linked above, it's "devs shouldn't play their own game" with accusations of "how did they get those BPO's, the lottery must have been hacked" and "why is he urging people to visit the official CCP jobs listing page and/or apply for jobs at CCP?"

From what I understand, most devs have rules that allow them to play the game, but they must not reveal that they are devs.  I guess the policy states that "you must lie about what your job is" but doesn't cover casually mentioning that you're from Iceland (which is a dead giveaway).

[Sparky]

Been in a guild with possibly a WoW dev or GM, sometimes petitions would get resolved way fast (like, 5 min response time for resolving an Onyxia-bugged-loot issue), but otherwise I didn't see anything suspicious (not that I would be able to).  Devs play their own games, nothing new, and no they don't always follow their behavior procedures to the letter.  Who cares.

Take the devs and the BPO's away from BoB, will it diminish their power and influence in any way?  Not really.  The little guy who just joined the game still has no chance to ever get to the level of gameplay that these guys operate at.

Some people will lose their jobs, some will be banned for misconduct and/or for creating drama instead of quietly petitioning, and that'll be that.

The little guy might well ask what's the point of playing a highly competitive game like Eve at all if the big dogs get special favours and insider tips.

[Endie]

The little guy might well ask what's the point of playing a highly competitive game like Eve at all if the big dogs get special favours and insider tips.

That's my take.  I'm pretty disappointed in the kind of culture this points up, both in CCP and in the gameplay that results.  Close reading of the timeline of those posts suggests, after all, that CCP became aware of malfeasance in July last year, and that three devs in RKK/BoB were known to at least 2 or possibly 3 higher-up guild members on a nod-and-a-wink basis.

It makes me look at some of the emergent gameplay in a rather different light, and I'm considering my accounts.

[Evangolis]

How do devs fill the eternal demand (and need) that play their own game, yet avoid this sort of controversy?  Seems like an inevitable double bind.

[ajax34i]

Eh, you might be right.  I was just looking at it from the point of view that "of course the top dog will get special treatment" and the issue for me is more of whehter CCP helped them to get to the top, which I don't think happened.

[Endie]

How do devs fill the eternal demand (and need) that play their own game, yet avoid this sort of controversy?  Seems like an inevitable double bind.

Yep, they should play the game, but one of the offending devs in particular was clearly playing on his role (as well as giving a guild leader the inside track on a CCP job application, and notifying of major gameplay-balance issues months in advance?!?).  And 9 million skill points, almost all in PvP stuff doesn't get you 6 or 7 of the more valuable Tech2 BPOs (alts and specialities are listed in a later post, so he didn't get them on the lottery himself).  Nor does hiding them in a corp hanger off-character when under suspicion look good.

[Simond]

Eh, you might be right.  I was just looking at it from the point of view that "of course the top dog will get special treatment" and the issue for me is more of whehter CCP helped them to get to the top, which I don't think happened.

It doesn't matter now, though:
Whenever BoB wins battles, it's going to be because they have CCP devs fixing things for them.
Whenever BoB loses battles, it's going to be because they cannot win a fair fight (i.e. without CCP fixing things for them).

Catch-22. 

[Wolf]

Man I don't know.

On one hand a dev should definitely play their own game. If they don't, they shouldn't be working on it. It's as simple as that. Fuck me, they should even get better treatment. A bonus here and there. What do I care if the Sabre I got comes from a BPO that a dev added to himself, so he wouldn't have to grind money? His game, in my eyes he's allowed to do that. I play the game he made, hell, I love the game he made.

However, there's another thing - if he's a dev, chances are he's playing since 2003. And he knows a lot more about the game than you and me. Of course he will be rich and powerful. Wouldn't you be? I know a bunch of guys that started in 2003 - all of them have tens of billions in assets. ALL.

What's on the other side? Well there's only one question - just how much did he help BoB?

It doesn't really matter at this point tbh. Last time this piece of shit Kugutsumen stirred trouble, a dev came out and tried to make people to stop investigating into possible devs. He explained exactly what the procedure is - if a dev is found out, he gets to keep his character. The character is renamed, a fake employment history is made up and he's forbidden to contact any of the guys he kept in touch with while playing the game. Or he loses his job. It doesn't matter if they find these guys guilty or innocent - for all intents and purposes their characters are deleted and their time in EVE is over. Would you come back to a game after playing it 4 years to go back to square one? I doubt it. And I believe the game loses from that - now you have a guy doing his job, instead of a guy living his dream.

[Wolf]

It doesn't matter now, though:
Whenever BoB wins battles, it's going to be because they have CCP devs fixing things for them.
Whenever BoB loses battles, it's going to be because they cannot win a fair fight (i.e. without CCP fixing things for them).

Yeah and that sucks. I don't get the BoB hate. Seriously I don't. They're acting like a bunch of arrogant assholes, but isn't that by design? Maybe I simpatize with them because I've been in a similar position. The scale was infinitely smaller, but the reactions were the same.

edit: english is hard :(

[JoeTF]

BoB is the new CA.
Back in old days virtually everyone in EVE hated biggest pvp entity called Curse Alliance. Well, not hated but considered them to be "ebil pirates" and thus prime target of every self-righteous newbie PVPer.
CA dissolved and now BOB have taken the place of universal target. Except that old CA was full silly 'pvp for lyfe' bravado and BOB finally learned concepts of strategic alliances, pet corps, spying and started actually wining.
Which is where the hate comes from - BOB is not only most excellent PvP alliance, but also the only alliance that never loses. They simply play to win.

My take on whole situation - it has been widely known that devs play EVE since beta times. ONly issue would be whether they abused their powers to help BOB, but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that. 

[tazelbain]

> but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that.
How could there ever be proof?  Only CCP has the ability to find prove.  Maybe.

[ajax34i]

[I don't get the BoB hate. Seriously I don't.

It's the same as the FOH hate of EQ days, and more recently in WoW, the hatred towards the top guild on each server, and the forum drama that goes with it.

[Fordel]

It's kinda like if you were playing a football game, and the opposing teams coach was also a referee.

I'm sure there isn't any kind of bias there at all!



Should the dev's play the game? Yes. Should they influence the game? No. EVE is the kinda game where even the slightest edge can pull you ahead of the competition... having inside info and/or resources available to one power in EVE but not the others? That just fucks over the integrity of the entire game. One giant snowball going downhill effect.


Of course, there is a strong possibility this is all 100% bullshit and none of it's true :)

[Evangolis]

A competent player can't play a high end PvP game without influencing the game.  That is what is good about PvP play.  Hopefully a dev would be competent at their own game.

[Comstar]

Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.

[Raging Turtle]

Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.

If all that's true... damn.  I hated BoB before, but I hated them like most people hate the Yankees.  Now I'm just disgusted. 

If the dev really was that high up in BoB, then there was leadership that knew they were getting an unfair advantage.  I'm hoping this whole thing isn't true for the sake of the game, but there HAS to be more than a few big-name bans if this stuff is accurate.  Otherwise, fuck CCP, I'm happy to take my money elsewhere.

[Fordel]

Yes, but being a BoB Fleet commander (and not just a fleet, thier capatil fleet) influnces the game more than is needed. As does donating a so called "random" lottery's worth of tech 2 BPO's. Or letting BoB *know* they were devs.

There is playing the game to observe how it works, and then there is playing the game to influence how it works.

If all that's true... damn.  I hated BoB before, but I hated them like most people hate the Yankees.  Now I'm just disgusted. 

If the dev really was that high up in BoB, then there was leadership that knew they were getting an unfair advantage.  I'm hoping this whole thing isn't true for the sake of the game, but there HAS to be more than a few big-name bans if this stuff is accurate.  Otherwise, fuck CCP, I'm happy to take my money elsewhere.

The sad reality of this is *ALL* MMOs are like this, Dev's/GM's always have there own pet projects on the side, there is always some kind of bias. It's usually very subtle though, much more subtle then most would think would even matter (and often it doesn't matter "Woo, I haxxor'd myself a blue hat!")

EVE is unusual in that there is only ONE shared space and this space is absolutely cut throat and merciless. IF (big if) BoB really did get the kind of advantage that is being brought up in the accusations, literal thousands of players on the receiving end of BoB now have a legitimate beef and the hundreds IN BoB themselves have a beef.

If the stuff being tossed around IS true, it really could send EVE and CCP into a deathspiral.

I'm still leaning slightly towards 100% utter bullshit myself, but who knows! :)

[ajax34i]

Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.

[Strazos]

So so so so Scandelous. Only slightly on-topic. 

[Endie]

Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.

Actually, I just did.  Both accounts.  If they deal with it well then I'm sure I'll be back at some future point, since I was really enjoying the game.  But no matter how small and insignificant a message it was to send CCP over this, it was the only one available to me.

[squirrel]

Meh, I don't know. As someone who has played EVE (and SB and DAoC) and tried to be somewhat competitive I can understand why this would cause significant raised eyebrows. By the same token, we WANT dev's to play their games and to do so seriously. How many times have you thought "There's no way anyone who works on this game has had to do this...it's retarded"?

However being in BoB is at the least a error in judgment. Is BoB filled with evil baby eaters? Nah. But they are powerful and relatively dominant in a PvP focused game that has a single persistent world. Given that, any CCP employee should steer clear of associating with them. I would think that dev's/insiders would learn more and find a greater challenge in playing the underdog.

Hopefully it's more bark than bite, I'd hate to hear that BoB (or anyone else) was getting serious favoritism, EVE is too good for that.

[Slayerik]

BoB is the new CA.
Back in old days virtually everyone in EVE hated biggest pvp entity called Curse Alliance. Well, not hated but considered them to be "ebil pirates" and thus prime target of every self-righteous newbie PVPer.
CA dissolved and now BOB have taken the place of universal target. Except that old CA was full silly 'pvp for lyfe' bravado and BOB finally learned concepts of strategic alliances, pet corps, spying and started actually wining.
Which is where the hate comes from - BOB is not only most excellent PvP alliance, but also the only alliance that never loses. They simply play to win.

My take on whole situation - it has been widely known that devs play EVE since beta times. ONly issue would be whether they abused their powers to help BOB, but there isn't a single shred of proof towards that. 

FYI, Curse is back. Too bad they pretty much suck and we make special trips to their space just to abuse them. ;)

[JoeTF]

It's just the name, if you look by the roosters, most of CA is sitting in BOB/LV.

[Sparky]

Nah, there won't be a deathspiral.  The whole deal will be quietly buried, and these are EVE fans we're talking about, if they haven't quit the game because of the bugs, downtime, nerfs, griefing, and boredom, they won't quit over this.

Actually, I just did.  Both accounts.  If they deal with it well then I'm sure I'll be back at some future point, since I was really enjoying the game.  But no matter how small and insignificant a message it was to send CCP over this, it was the only one available to me.

I'm out too unless this is resolved to my satisfaction.  For what it's worth that doesn't include devs admitting they've been helping BoB all along and rending of garments; but a transparent set of policies would be nice.  We pay for a sandbox where any players can change the game if they're organised and smart, but if some of the kiddies are getting a bigger shovel on the sly then what's the point.

[Stephen Zepp]

Just some food for thought--

I've always believed in player content, but I've also witnessed many times where player politics were handled on a knee-jerk reaction mechanism, instead of more "deep" reasons. I don't want to go into huge details, but in SB, I ran an entire nation based on a lore story to inject "logical" (or at least consistent) diplomacy into our server---do this, the Church (our nation) will support you. Do that, the Church will hunt you down.

People may not have liked the Church, but in retrospect a lot of people liked the fact that we existed--it added meaning to conflicts instead of simple random ganking. Many other servers tried to do that type of "meaningful pvp", and some succeedeed, and some failed.

What I garnered out of those 6+ months of "research" is that there is actually quite a strong benefit in the long run to a game's sustainability (given world changing capability of any form, based on player action) if there is controlled, planned "guidance" (read that as interation and leadership) from paid game "devs"--actually paid players, on staff--that directly interact with each shard/game world/whatever under a long term plan that is tailored for the dynamics of that server.

In other words, done right, I think that not only is the company playing their own game good, but in fact if done well adds quite a bit to the game's fun factor and long term viability.

[ajax34i]

Judging by CCP's policies on posting or commenting on GM decisions and/or disciplinary action (such as bans), I doubt they'll post any details of whatever investigation they're doing.  So, even if they fire the culprits, remove the BPO's, and ban a bunch of the BoB leadership, we probably won't know.  They may or may not post some sort of official statement, I don't know.

So, I don't know if you'll be able to tell if they resolved it to your satisfaction, if they do anything.  I guess, watch for farewell statements from devs finding "better opportunities elsewhere" and posts by BoB insiders that some of their leaders are quitting the game because their wife/gf/SO wants them to play WoW or take better care of the kids or whatnot.

Stephen, the posts quoted seem to imply that the devs involved helped BoB to become a lot more powerful than otherwise possible; if this was an effort by the devs to steer the game, the only way I can interpret it is that they want the same situation that they have on the Chinese server:  one alliance conquering all space.  I am not sure if that's a desirable situation for the TQ shard.

[Vedi]

I find it odd that people believe developers play favorites with the guild or faction they are a part of. This seems to suggest that the developers care more about their faction/guild than the game as a whole - the game they work on all day! I am sure you can find some bad apples that somehow gets a power rush from manipulating in-game events, or are recently recruited players that hasn't adjusted to the developer viewpoint, but these are surely dealt with harshly. The real developers doesn't care about individual player factions, they care about how game systems work. They are not out to "win" their own game - that'd be trivial. They are after creating the infinite, interesting struggle. Helping out the big guy is counterproductive to that.

Comparing developers playing their game to football referees playing on one of the teams is a bad analogy. Think of it as the FIFA rules committee themselves playing football actively. They need to do that to understand the game. They'd not change the size of the goal just because the keeper on their team was bad.

I too think that having payed players (GMs) or Feature Characters or whatever SB wanted to call them, can be interesting. I suppose Eve is a game where that would be possible, since everyone is on the same server. However, I think you'd have to announce in advance that this is how you are going to work, or it'd just cause too much problems and paranoia with players wondering who are payed and who aren't.

[Raging Turtle]

CCP has posted that they'll make an official announcement with the results of their investigation... whenever that ends. 

Vedi: That's exactly what we're talking about - a dev who has covertly been helping BoB, which CCP has stated WILL get you fired if caught.  This isn't a Feature Character - Eve has in-game events like that every so often and nobody complains (or cares too much) about those, because they don't impact 0.0 space - the one place where everything that happens, happens because of the hard work of corporations.  How would you feel if you and your corp/guild worked your asses off to accomplish something, and then had it taken away by someone with an unfair, out-of-game advantage?

This is far worse than a little help or favoritism in a game like WoW or something similar.  Nobody cares if someone else has a free +9 Whackafoozle of Smiting, because it doesn't affect your gameplay in any significant manner.  Oh no, lost in battlegrounds?  Play again!  You can't do that in Eve.  Whether or not I resubscribe after my current deal runs out will depend entirely on how they handle this case.

[Vedi]

CCP has posted that they'll make an official announcement with the results of their investigation... whenever that ends. 

Vedi: That's exactly what we're talking about - a dev who has covertly been helping BoB, which CCP has stated WILL get you fired if caught.

Yep, I agree, it is bad if this happened. We should realize, though, that CCP takes this very seriously, as any company making such a game would. The point is that quitting over these things, or demanding that developers should not play certain parts of the game is misguided, because it fails to appreciate the motives almost all developers have when playing the game. The few exceptions are just that - exceptions and bad apples, and should be dealt with by the company in the same way as other breaches of trust by an employee. And they are.

Obviously, it is bad for ASCN and other victims of BoB, if their victories were significantly affected by this. But who really believes that? The room for affecting big things like that should be small, simply because any significant contribution would be noticed easily by other devs or even players. If BoB managed to get some intel and even good T2 BPOs out of it, I doubt this in any way significantly altered the result of any conflict. It's not like they are starved for either.

Let it go, and let CCP deal with. It likely has some serious consequences for whomever did this, going much further than a couple of in-game blueprints.