Battlestar Galactica (spoilers/speculation)

[HaemishM]

I don't buy who y'all are speaking of for the 5th.  There was another hint in the episode, much earlier.  That's who I was betting on.

If the show still gave a crap about internal consistency and logical mysteries, then I'd say a character who had a visceral reaction just before the Mysterious Power Outage would be a strong clue. But hell, man, Bob Dylan. Why bother.

No, not even Bob fucking Dylan. Not even Jimi Hendrix, the only fucking version of that song that should ever be played, anywhere, ever. No, we get some shittastic technoindustriafag version of one of the greatest guitar songs ever. I knew what the lyrics were when the "Joker said to the thief" line came on, and groaned audibly.

WHAT... THE... FUCK???

The 5th Cylon is either Starbuck or Rosslyn.

But the other 4... is super splenderifically retarded. Tigh has been serving for 40 FUCKING YEARS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first Cylon War only 20-30 years ago? Meaning there were skin jobs walking around who didn't reveal themselves before? WHY? For fuck's sake, WHY? Chief has fathered a child, yet none of the Cylons have shown the slightest interest in the child, and it seems like the Cylons know the hybrids when they see them. Also, if skin jobs can FATHER children, why aren't they just out abducting all the wimmenz and fathering little hybrids like mad.

The show stopped making sense just before Starbuck's death. It's REALLY not making sense now.

You know, I'd almost have believed that Tigh had been programmed on New Caprica to think he was a Cylon but he really isn't. But the other 3 weren't in captivity like he was. They weren't held for questioning as far as we know. So again, either it's a huge and illogical red herring, or it's a hugely illogical plot device meant to shock.

I'll continue watching into the fourth season, but my finger will be on the delete button. Season 2's year ahead jump was ballsy, and it worked, but it didn't insult the intelligence of those watching. It didn't try to pull feints and parries, and it kept the character's acting consistently. This one made me feel cockslapped with the flaccid wang of a set of desperately blocked writers.

[Roac]

Tigh has been serving for 40 FUCKING YEARS.

So he says.  He hasn't been under Adama's command for that long, either. 

Chief has fathered a child

So his wife says.

Meaning there were skin jobs walking around who didn't reveal themselves before? WHY?

Because they didn't know they were skinjobs, same as Boomer didn't know for a good while.  For that matter, the other 7 Cylons didn't know who they were either, so you know that someone else is pulling the strings of all the Cylons.

[Riggswolfe]

I was trying to think what all these people had in common:

1) Connected to people of importance: Admiral Adama, the President, and Starbuck. Though I'm not sure how Chief fits in
2) All on New Caprica
3) At least 3 of them were in the resistance. I don't know if what's her name was involved or not.

I don't know. It seems really weird to me and I hope they explain it. Also, I'm starting to think Roslyn is either insane or a cylon herself. Probably both. The dream sharing thing is...different.

[HaemishM]

Tigh has been serving for 40 FUCKING YEARS.

So he says.  He hasn't been under Adama's command for that long, either. 

He's been serving long enough that they are best friends. I ain't buying it without some serious serious explanation that doesn't sound as half-assed as a crappy Dylan song.

Because they didn't know they were skinjobs, same as Boomer didn't know for a good while.  For that matter, the other 7 Cylons didn't know who they were either, so you know that someone else is pulling the strings of all the Cylons.

I don't mind this grand mastermind thing. Despite all the talk of religion and God, I think confirming the actual existence of divine/spiritual/higher beings in this universe would actually drain the story of a lot of its heart. It's all been about competing world views and belief systems clashing, with neither side being in the right completely. Now if suddenly there is a higher power pulling strings, wouldn't that higher power have to be "right?" Or very very prickish?

[HaemishM]

I was trying to think what all these people had in common:

1) Connected to people of importance: Admiral Adama, the President, and Starbuck. Though I'm not sure how Chief fits in

Connected to Galactica, which may be part mecha Cylon itself.

3) At least 3 of them were in the resistance. I don't know if what's her name was involved or not.

Tori, and yes she was in the resistance.

I don't know. It seems really weird to me and I hope they explain it. Also, I'm starting to think Roslyn is either insane or a cylon herself. Probably both. The dream sharing thing is...different.

Presumably the dream sharing thing is because of the Kamala extract, or because Roslin is a Cylon or both.

[Jayce]

I read an interview with Moore where he states that they in fact ARE Cylons - no tricks.  Whether that lines up with the history, I don't really know; I guess I haven't paid enough attention.  From memory, humans had no contact with Cylons for 50 years before the series started.  They could have dreamed up skinjobs shortly before that time, and Tigh is about 60 yrs old? I would have thought 50, but if he's been serving for 40 years, 60 makes more sense.

None of the skinjobs seemed to know who the other five were besides Cavil.  Six said "we don't talk about them" to Gaius.

It's been established that the missing ingredient for Cylons and humans to reproduce is love, which is why Sharon got pregnant.  That makes sense with Callie and Tyrol.  It does throw another light onto Tyrol and Sharon's old relationship though, eh?

edit: math

[tazelbain]

What makes you think Cavil knows?

The 5 wanted to live peacefully with the humans. The 7 forgot them purposely so they would treat them 5 the same as all humans.

[Nevermore]

Slightly off topic, but have they ever explained why books/paper in BSG have no corners?

Conservation.  They take all the little corners they cut off and recycle them into new sheets of cornerless paper.

No, there hasn't been an actual explanation other than the implied 'They're not from Earth!' so mine is as good a reason as any.

[SnakeCharmer]

I'm 3/4 of the way through season 2, and that interview and what I've read here really makes me want to quit watching right now.  

Tigh being a Cylon?  To quote "That's just fucking clownshoes stupid".  Seriously.  The same for Chief.  

As for my current point in the series, the whole Baltar talking to 'imaginary' #6 is really getting old.  It at first was humorous, a gimmick.  Now, it's just fucking stupid.  Wouldn't someone of power have noticed him talking to himself, and at the very least had his sanity questioned?  I'm hoping all the delusions lead somewhere, but I have feeling it won't.  I liked Baltar at first, now I cringe everytime I see him on the screen.

[Riggswolfe]

I read an interview with Moore where he states that they in fact ARE Cylons - no tricks. 

Moore also stated Starbuck is dead and won't be back for Season 4. Now she seems to be alive and is confirmed for being part of the cast in Season 4.

Which means this could be more B.S. I kind of hope so because the more I think about it, the less I like at least two of these characters as Cylons. (tigh and the chief). I don't care enough about Anders or Tori for it to matter.

[Abagadro]

On the paper thing, I read somewhere that it is an inside joke with the prop people who are on such a tight budget that they decided they literally had to "cut corners".

[Stormwaltz]

Presumably the dream sharing thing is because of the Kamala extract, or because Roslin is a Cylon or both.

Or because she had a Cylon transfusion. It would be a handwave, but less so than Bob Dylan.

[HaemishM]

I could buy the transfusion thing.

[Samwise]

I guessed a while back that Roslyn, Baltar, Starbuck, and the Chief were all Cylons due to them all having inexplicable prophetic/significant visions.  I guess I got half of those right, assuming that either Roslyn or Starbuck is the fifth. 

Tigh, Sam, and Tori are just right the fuck outta left field though.     And if my other guesses aren't really Cylons, I'm want to know where their visions come from.

[Bunk]

Sam I can kind of see some groundwork for - he was drawn to Kara, he survived on New Caprica under insane odds, things like that. It probably wasn't meant to be groundwork for the fact that he's a Cylon when it was written, but it works.

I am a little worried that this is all heading towards a Data's Dad type scenario though. I'd actually much prefer that it end up being a giant brain in a vat or something. Just please, not God.

[Jayce]

What makes you think Cavil knows?

Because he stated as such in one episode (I forget which).  He also boxed D'anna for finding out.

Slightly off topic, but have they ever explained why books/paper in BSG have no corners?

In one of the first podcasts, Moore read a fanmail that asked that.  He said "It is something very deep and intriguing, not just a design conceit someone came up with when we were doing initial prop design... no, not at all".

[Roac]

Moore also stated Starbuck is dead and won't be back for Season 4. Now she seems to be alive and is confirmed for being part of the cast in Season 4.

Moore said the "Starbuck we know is dead".  That all but says that she isn't dead-dead, but something radical occured.  The actress also didn't say that she was dead in her interviews, only that she was surprised about it all, and in the dark about what they're going to do (...because season 4 wasn't written).  They were purposely trying to mislead but didn't outright lie.

[Triforcer]

You heard it here first:  This goes all Sixth Sense and EVERYBODY is a Cylon!  None of the real humans survived, Galactica and its crew were purposefully segregated (and all knowledge on both sides was erased) to give the Cyclons tactical practice and an "enemy" to draw them together. 

[tazelbain]

McCreary went into details about his conversation with BSG executive producer Ronald D. Moore regarding the song’s eclectic arrangement:

    The idea was not that Bob Dylan necessarily exists in the characters’ universe, but that an artist on one of the colonies may have recorded a song with the exact same melody and lyrics. Perhaps this unknown performer and Dylan pulled inspiration from a common, ethereal source…

Moore told him to “make no musical references to any Earthly versions, Hendrix, Dylan, or any others.” And that the arrangement needed to sound “like a pop song that belonged in the Galactica universe, not our own.”

[SnakeCharmer]

I've been watching BSG on www.utvpc.com, but unfortunately, it doesn't have all of season 3 on it.  Is there anywhere else online to catch it?

PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting it here.

[Merusk]

Chief has fathered a child

So his wife says.

Heh.. I was in the middle of bitching at my wife about how Chief had a kid, and this makes Hera absolutly un-fucking-special and what kind of bullshit is it that they just toss this out there to fuck up THAT whole storyline too, when she chirped up with, "What makes you so certain he's the father?"

I stared at her a moment, blinked, and in the back of my head said "I need to take a REAL close look at my kids..."    Yay cuckholding!

[Tannhauser]

Well I was right about Starbuck leading them to Earth.  Has anyone else considered that SHE is the 'arrow of Apollo'?  She will lead Apollo and thus the fleet to Earth.

I thought Tigh was a cylon when he lost his eye.  One eye=cylon.  Then I said 'thats silly, Tigh is too much of a bastard to be anything but human.' 

I'm sorta disappointed he and Tirol are cylons, it seems to me Moore loves to do the SHOCKING REVEAL and figure out how it works later.

I also think the Final Five may be Cylons, but they are also the Guardians of Humanity.  Think about where they all fit in, on the right hand side of humans in charge, even Rosilyn to the Prez.  Anders collected the remainder of humans on Caprica, etc.  Plus they all were very active in the Resistance. 

So the five are more independent of the seven cylon models.  The seven are 'upgrades' and thus have a sorta hive mind where the  five are free thinkers and thus heretics of GODS PLAN. 

[tazelbain]

So after watching the rerun tonight, the zoom-in/zoom-out puts them extremely close to earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helix_nebula
And the closest nebula is 650ly to Earth and looks like our target.  Once they get out this mess, they are a stones throw from Earth.  Doesn't look like they are going to drag this out like Stargate.

[Johny Cee]

About "All along the Watchtower":

It's not that uncommon a technique.  You want to show your characters as confused, on the verge of breakdown, disconnected; and get the audience to feel the same thing?  Throw in a completely off the wall non-sequitar, something that doesn't make any sense with the story or setting so far.  Get the audience confused and going "WTF? how does this connect?" and it helps sell both the actors performance and the change in the story.  

Off the top of my head,  the only example that comes directly to mind is the Coen's "The Man Who Wasn't There".  It's a 50's period piece,  about a guy with no connection to what's going on in his life who unwittingly gets involved in blackmail schemes and murder.  A standard Coen type movie.  

Towards the end,  they have the main character witness a UFO come down and zoom over him while he shows no reaction at all.  Completely out of left field.  Is it all of a sudden a scifi movie?  Is this going anywhere?  What just happened?

It breaks your connection to the plot,  leaves you disassociated from what's happening,  and puts you in the same state of mind the character is experiencing.  It also breaks through the preconceptions you have about the characters.

"The Way of the Gun" sort of does this with the beginning scene outside the club,  where the protagonists get the shit beaten out of them.  Also,  the bit with the sperm donation dialogue.  It's trying to break us out of normal preconceptions about what action movie/heist movie protagonists should be.

"All Along the Watchtower" is meant to confuse you,  throw you off the story and plot,  and make you feel what the characters are feeling.  It also helps sell the scene where the characters come to the realization they're Cylons.  Especially when you're asking four actors to pull it off,  and it's already been done with setup earlier in the series.

When I realized what song it was,  I had a laughing fit.  It really is a brillant mindfuck.

[Venkman]

Finally watched the finale. I wasn't impressed, and I went in with low expectations per this thread. Lee's speech was arduous and inappropriate in that setting. Though it was a good message, it's been said before when everyone was pardoned. I did like though that both he and the lawyer ditched Baltar after the trial though. I was hoping for a Lee Harvey Oswald moment when Baltar was carrying his stuff in the hallway during the power outage.

Question: if you're leading the last of known humanity into unchartered space, why do you jump the entire freaking fleet into a nebula without sending a scout out first? I'd think one Raptor losing power out there would be a bit safer than everyone doing so.

The whole Tigh/everyone being Cylons thing just felt gimmicky. It substantiates something  I've been thinking for awhile. Somewhere during this season they found out they had 22 more episodes to do. So they had to stretch out everything in order to leverage that opportunity. So they have all this feel-good crap character development, no Cylons for weeks, minor love affair stuff. And being BSG, they've programmed the audience to expect surprise cliffhangars, though after the Rescue it's pretty hard to top.

Hence, Tigh/everyone is not some huge plot development, but a gimmick to prompt the next season. And even while supposedly that is the last season, if the show makes enough cash for sci-fi, who knows?

I hate when business messes with groundbreaking creativity. BSG just got MMO'd.

[NowhereMan]

They certainly succeeded in surprising the fuck out of me. Still not sure if this is a great thing or not.

I'm not too upset by the Cylon reveal, even if it ends up being tricky explaining it exactly I thought it was quite fitting to discover that Tigh was a Cylon. He's a hard assed bastard that's entirely invested with his position, the only thing that really made Tigh seem like a human rather than a military officer was Ellen and he blew her brains out for giving aid to the enemy. Tigh seems more hellbent at doing his job than most of the Cylons do.

I kinda agree with the argument that they extended this season with filler episodes though. It just felt like a lot of episodes really lacked any urgency, hell any relevance to the main plot. They could have happened in any of the three seasons with a few alterations except for Baltar's trial and even that felt dragged out and ultimately pointless. Basically there's been a lot of stuff going on which has had zero impact on the plot and just end up with a return to status quo, the whole Kara/Lee affair ended up with everyone deciding that they prefer the relationships they're in? A bit of that kind of stuff is great for developing the characters but I felt there was simply too much of it. Hopefully they'll decide to finish it next season and give us a nice steady plot advancement rather than dilly dally and hit us with a big reveal at the end.

[Roac]

I don't get the dislike for this episode.  IMO, it was one of the best (top ten at least).  I disliked the one before it, and if it missed my bottom ten that's only because so many others in 3.5 were in contest for slots.  

The fleet had damn good reasons to hate Baltar, as did the President.  Adama never liked the son of a bitch, and to paraphras him, Baltar is far from innocent.  Even by screwed-up-90210-Galactica standards.  If they had not done anything about Baltar, the lingering question would have been, why not?  My critique would be that they did a poor job of dealing with it (the trial).  The whole motiong to get Lee on the stand was goofy, but his speach was spot on.  He was a spotlight on all the screwed up mindgames people were playing on themselves and each other.  He was the character speaking what everyone in the audiance was thinking.  

As for Starbuck, they've been leading up to this (or something close to it) all season.  Something big and drastic was going to happen to her that was going to move the plot forward, it was just a question of what.  Same thing with the President's cancer; you knew it, or something to replace it, was going to return.   I also like Johny's take on the music bit, and I liked the use of it as a plot device.  Who cares about the remake of the song; I'm not going to play it on an mp3 player, and it's good enough to listen to and still convey "this is alien music".  It did what it was supposed to do.

The big thing was the reveal of four of the final five, and I loved the picks.  I started to suspect something was up in the first part, was fairly sold at the start of the second part, but it was still hard to believe and hit me in the gut when it was finalized at the end.  I think it's great that Tigh is one of them; his is going to be the best to watch the fallout of, I think.  He's also one of my favorite actors on the show, and I'm looking forward to his character being even more screwed up in the head than he's been already.

[tazelbain]

The whole backstretch was working up to this trial and it was really disappointing.  They could have skipped to the radio thing a month ago and spent a month covering the new Cylons and some of the social issues before the nebula jump. I can except that not every episode can be action packed plot advancers, but half a season gone with very little to show for it, just pisses me off.

[Tebonas]

Yes, this season was the crappiest one. But I liked this episode, and I look forward to all the Tigh backstory. Michael Hogan will really hit that one out of the ballpark. I can totally buy him as a toasterhating badass who still functions despite the knowledge of being a Cylon. Because that man hated himself for some time now for other reasons. I'm looking forward to all the ways that man will be broken again and again and still come out at the other side still somewhat functioning.

My feeling is those four Cylons are obviously the "good" ones, regarding their usefullness to the Colonists. Right hand of the Admiral and the President, leader of the Union (and chief mechanic of the only defense vessel they have), de facto leader of resistance on Caprica and one of the New Caprica leaders (in fact three of these four are very prominent and high profile resistance leaders, and the fourth was in the resistance too). Hell, if they ever want the colonists wiped out I give those four two episodes to achieve that - if they are lazy and pace themself. They seem more like the protectors of humanity, defending the colonists from the other Cylon rabble.

[Jayce]

Add another vote for this one being one of the best episodes, if it wasn't already painfully obvious that I loved this one.

Interesting take by Johnny Cee on the song.  IMO that was the weakest part of the show, but it didn't stretch my suspension of disbeleif too far.  They could have just as easily made a new song that sounded more alien, but whatever.

At the beginning of the season I remember thinking "I hope they don't save the world in every episode, because that will get reptitive".  Well, they didn't, and if they erred on the side of too many character development plotlines, I can live with that.  I don't need pew pew every episode.

[Bunk]

While I will admit I was getting a little annoyed after three episodes in a row that felt "fillery", the fact was I still ran home to my PVR to watch them every Sunday, and still enjoyed them for what they were- even if I did want the story to advance more.

In otherwords, I still enjoyed the season. Sue me.

One little thing that stood out for me in the last episode. In retrospect, I loved how they had Tigh start on the line "there must be some way out of here". It just fit in with his mindset and situation so well, that the signifgance went right over me. It was done in almost a foreshadowing kind of way, and had a interesting impact when you looked back on it later.

[tazelbain]

The song was good.  It conveys themes of class struggle and war weariness that fit with the 3rd season.  My problem was that it overlapped with the final scene with Apollo.  Two conflicting sets of audio not cool.

[Yegolev]

Too much filler in Season 3.

I smell Lucas-revisionism.

[Jayce]

In retrospect, I loved how they had Tigh start on the line "there must be some way out of here".

Actually, I noticed when watching last night that it went earlier than that.  When he was talking to Adama about the music in the bulkheads, he made the offhand comment "There's just too much confusion".  It didn't at all seem out of place for a guy who might or might not be going slowly batshit.

[Furiously]

When he said, "Said the Joker to the thief" I threw up a little in my mouth.

They really needed a couple more space battles this season. Or another raid on a fuel dump. Or the fuel manufacturing ship needs to blow up. They need more bad stuff happening to them. Season 1 & 2 were all about a bad situation getting worse.

Also. How come their uniforms and pants and shirts are not full of holes by now?