Vanguard is live.

[schild]

Started playing.

Done playing. Review in a few minutes.

[Strazos]

In all fairness, I'll point out that I do feel powerful pretty quickly in Vanguard.

My Disciple (a healer) could land hits that do over 200 points of damage by level 4.  (Fluttering Petal I + Critical.)  For scale, that's about the same as the damage done in ten rounds of just auto-attacking at that level.  A Scrapper critical + buildup = 400%, but I just landed a 1000%. 

It's all numbers. Do you get all excited in JRPGs when you do 9999 damage? But then feel weak when you swap over to something based on D20 or 3E cause you're only doing 20 damage a swing or something?

And nerfs? Please. Did you ever actually PLAY EQ? "Nerfs in the future" does not even begin to describe what's going to happen, especially since none of these changes have had any testing whatsoever.

[Surlyboi]

In all fairness, I'll point out that I do feel powerful pretty quickly in Vanguard.

My Disciple (a healer) could land hits that do over 200 points of damage by level 4.  (Fluttering Petal I + Critical.)  For scale, that's about the same as the damage done in ten rounds of just auto-attacking at that level.  A Scrapper critical + buildup = 400%, but I just landed a 1000%. 

It's all numbers. Do you get all excited in JRPGs when you do 9999 damage? But then feel weak when you swap over to something based on D20 or 3E cause you're only doing 20 damage a swing or something?

And nerfs? Please. Did you ever actually PLAY EQ? "Nerfs in the future" does not even begin to describe what's going to happen, especially since none of these changes have had any testing whatsoever.

Six years of EQ. All as a ranger. That's how I know this guy's way too powerful right now and the bat's gonna come hard and fast.

[Calantus]

That said, I personally found after a while that following the quest chains became a unpalatable grind.  It's hard to explain , but I felt I was playing the mmorpg version of your typical rail shooter,  where the game funnels you from point a to b not with physical barriers ala Dungeon Siege  but with quest dialogue.

While some might consider that a strength,  I am explorer by heart, and never felt particularily immersed in that world.

I agree and yet I disagree. Personally I love choices and few "bonus" quests that, while not necessarily hidden, you have to look for in order to get them. On the whole though I'll typically play a game the exact same way once I get into a quest groove. All the baldur's gates and similar games I will play through pretty-much the same way every time I replay them. Even Ultima 7 and Morrowind, games that are really open, I'll play the exact same way, doing the same quests in the same order always (except when forced not to of course). So while I do understand what you say, and would like a little more freedom, being forced into a groove isn't so bad to me since I'd just make up my own groove after a couple characters anyway.

What irritates me the most about WoW quests is where you'll hit a group only quest or a quest that you magically can't do until you get 1-2 more levels. That really shits me when I have to drop a quest line or miss out on a nice standalone quest just because of arbitrary borders. If only they weren't so strict on the level (my brother and I call +3 mobs the "magic level" because it's where you start missing like a mofo and getting mass partial resists/glancing blows, making such fights so not worth it) and group aspects when they come into play I probably would never get bored of that game, just leveling guys over and over through the quest grind and overcoming quests that I probably shouldn't be able to, but can if I really push myself and pull out all stops.

[tmp]

In all fairness, I'll point out that I do feel powerful pretty quickly in Vanguard.

My Disciple (a healer) could land hits that do over 200 points of damage by level 4.  (Fluttering Petal I + Critical.)  For scale, that's about the same as the damage done in ten rounds of just auto-attacking at that level.  A Scrapper critical + buildup = 400%, but I just landed a 1000%. 

It's all numbers. Do you get all excited in JRPGs when you do 9999 damage? But then feel weak when you swap over to something based on D20 or 3E cause you're only doing 20 damage a swing or something?

He said the 200 hp attack is 10x regular auto thing, so he does "only 20 damage a swing" normally as it is. Am getting impression what he's talking about isn't "numbers" but relative sizes -- an attack worth 10 regular ones does feel like a powerful blow, no matter what actual numbers showing when you hit the foozle say.

[geldonyetich]

When my Disciple was level 6, it was roughly like this: 

• Auto-attack did 20ish damage.
  
  • Auto-attack damage is based off of weapon equipped, stats, and skills.
  • The weapon in this example is a mediocre newbie weapon.
• My Ability-based attacks added about +8, +12 damage.
  
  • It says how much it adds on the skill itself.  Some are straight weapon + amount damage, others are a % modification.
  • Many ability-based attacks have secondary effects, like healing my defensive target.
  • You have an offensive and defensive target specified at all times.
• Critical hits, which happen about 20% of the time for me, increase the damage done by about 25%-50%.
  
  • All attacks can crit, including the chain attack below.
  • Epic and Legendary critical hits are rare but can do massive amounts of damage.  A 20 pts attack may become 250 pts.
• My chain attack, "Fluttering Petal I", does about 150-250 damage, about 50% of a two-dot mob's health.
  
  • Disciples chain attack is opened by performing a crit with an ability-based attack.
  • If you perform an attack out of sequence the opportunity to perform a chain attack is lost.
  • What triggers chain attacks will vary between classes.  Some classes may not get a chain attack.
  • There are other kinds of attacks such as reactive counterattacks and rescues.  Some classes don't get these.

Disciple damage is weaker than most because they're defensive casters.  Offensive casters or offensive fighters should do consistently more damage.  However, I suspect the Disciple might be one of the more interesting to play in terms of diversity.  It's hard to say, having not played terribly deep into the other classes.

That said, you might see how Vanguard's balance is different from many MMORPGs out there.  I can only recall player influence allowing mega-gobs of damage to happen to mobs in City of Heroes.  Usually it's just "hit kick button for an extra attack", which is a lot less interesting than "watch out for chain opportunities for 10x damage extra attack".  There's a few more aspects of consideration here that most MMORPGs don't bother to add, which puts Vanguard above being the average Diku in my mind.  You know, before Diplomacy and Crafting come along.

I said "roughly" on the first sentence of this message because I didn't have a pencil and paper out at the time, so I'm eyeballing a lot of this.  It's further complicated because abilities "age".  They start off fresh and potent, but in time you need to buy a more potent version off the trainer, and those are unlocked with character level.  My "Fluttering Petal I" did 50% of a two-dot mob's health at level 4, but at level 9 it's more like 25%-35%.  Eventually I'll get a "Fluttering Petal II" and it'll start over again.

(I'd be playing right now, but I told myself I'd not play Vanguard until I'm done working.  Curse my procrastination!  I aught to include F13 with that, but I'm apparently quite compulsive.)

[Kitsune]

To the best of my knowledge, DAoC was the founder of the 'Attack B can be used if Attack A works/stuns/crits', FFXI ran with the ball for party-wide chain attacks, and EQ2 tried similar.  Nicer than 'auto attack + kick button every ten seconds', but not something of earth-shattering newness unless something else has been thrown into the pot.  Where previous games kinda failed is that FFXI made it essential to pull off chain attacks if the party wanted to succeed, and EQ2's chain attacks were nice but largely underwhelming.

[Nebu]

I've been playing yesterday and today.  All I can say is that any potential this game may have is overshadowed by it being a buggy, unpolished piece of shit. 

1) Loads of z-axis errors.

2) Character animations are TERRIBLE.  Swimming and ladders are pathetic.

3) Many interface glitches. 

4) Too many other examples to list... half the time I log on I don't even get the option to create a new character.  Booted to desktop only to have ALL of my preferences erased, etc.

I'm dumbfounded.
 

[Azazel]

Geld, its one thing to be in love. Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy, Sadly it won,t last. It is alltogether another thing to be in love and blind. Meditate on that sir and enjoy your self while knowing the world around you. after all "nothing is happening" is the net effect.

Im not in love
So dont forget it
Its just a silly phase Im going through
And just because
I call you up
Dont get me wrong, dont think youve got it made
Im not in love, no no, its because....

I like to see you
But then again
That doesnt mean you mean that much to me
So if I call you dont make a fuss
Dont tell you friends about the two of us
Im not in love, no no, its because....

I keep your picture
Upon the wall
It hides a nasty stain thats lying there
So dont you ask me
To give it back
I know you know it doesnt mean that much to me
Im not in love, no no, its because....

Ooh youll wait a long time for me
Ooh youll wait a long time
Ooh youll wait a long time for me
Ooh youll wait a long time

Im not in love
So dont forget it
Its just a silly phase Im going through
And just because I call you up
Dont get me wrong, dont think youve got it made
Im not in love
Im not in love

[Margalis]

Why are people playing in the first week of release? Seriously do people just never learn?

Is the need to be first like on the SWG message boards really that compelling?

[Falconeer]

Why are people playing in the first week of release? Seriously do people just never learn?

Is the need to be first like on the SWG message boards really that compelling?

There are two kind of jaded gamers.

The kind that is too old to bear paid betas and unpolished shit.
And the kind that is too old to be troubled by bugs and unpolished shit.

I play because I AM unpolished shit, and I am enjoying Vanguard. Maybe it won't last, maybe I am just bored. Maybe it's just because I have a guild of of good friends in there. Still, I had a hell of a weekend.

[pxib]

They're so very, very bored. They've been playing the same games for months and need a little novelty. I can get my crappy-new-clone thrills from Signe's Asian betas... but some folks don't really feel like they're getting properly fucked if they're not paying for it.

Still, I had a hell of a weekend.

Whatever floats your boat, dude.

[Miasma]

I played it over the weekend and mostly enjoyed it, I wish my guild didn't want to play on the PvP server though.  The main reason I think I had fun was because I hooked up with old friends though, not due to the merit of the game.

If you ever played EQ this game will feel very nostalgic while being easier enough to make you forget about all the crap you had to go through in EQ.  I did a few corpse runs but they were optional, you can summon your corpse from where you rez, you can also bind items to yourself so that they stay with you even if you die.  The main pain in the ass right now is travel time, there is no easy way to move around and the world is just huge, this is mitigated somewhat by the fact that you can buy a cheap horse at level ten.  Eventually you get a flying mount but I doubt I'll make it that far, there is noticable grind even in your teens.

I was surprised at how stable the servers were, they only came down for patches.  There are plenty of bugs and annoyances but nothing game breaking (aside from one bug on the race war server).

[Ixxit]

The main reason I think I had fun was because I hooked up with old friends though, not due to the merit of the game.

Maybe it won't last, maybe I am just bored. Maybe it's just because I have a guild of of good friends in there.

Aw come on....don't qualify your love. 

It's almost as if Vanguard is like the fat girl you are secretly dating but too embarassed to say that you are infatuated with 

Admit it, Vanguard has legs....maybe a litte cellulite here and there but I'll sure be spreadin' them for a while.


(Yeah, I know bad analogy)

[Falconeer]

No Ixxit, you are wrong with me.

I said I enjoyed it all over the weekend. I "supported" it for a full month and basically tried to wipe away the hate since I joined F13. What else should I do?

First, I walk proud of all my fat girls. I just love 'em all.
Second, this is not the case. I am having fun with a game I am not in love with, yet. Maybe it's just a fling, maybe we'll end up married. Can't say yet.

I am not diminishing my good time in Vanguard at all. I am just bored at myself talking good about the game and trying to explain why. Explain why it doesn't suck, or at least why it doesn't suck one inch more then World of Warcraft (it's the fucking same old crap! Now 70% more unpolished but with 30% more calories!) . I am done talking so I will concede anyone interested a win. Vanguard sucks.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back playing it and leveling my Thestran Paladin.
(Oh, by the way, in game I am a fat girl).

[shiznitz]

I was surprised at how stable the servers were, they only came down for patches.  There are plenty of bugs and annoyances but nothing game breaking (aside from one bug on the race war server).

They are stable but not crowded. I saw few players this weekend in the Vulmane starting town. I will continue to pop in to VG but it won't be pulling me from EQ2 full time. There is a lot of EQ2 I have yet to see at 65 and it is so much more polished. I will continue to level my VG character until I can try some serious grouping action. I need to experience the chains and counters before I make up my mind for good.

The good part of VG is that anyone can get at least a month's worth of casual entertainment out of this game by just taking one character of each race to level 7 or so.

[Miasma]

(Yeah, I know bad analogy)

No that's a good analogy, I'm somewhat ashamed that I had fun this weekend.

[Engels]

Well, its sorta a bad analogy, because Sigil isn't the fat girl, its the wife-beating husband you went back to, despite your girlfriends' warnings about leopards and spots. That's the sense of shame.

So far its all a nice honeymoon, and I'm enjoying myself, but I harbor no delusions that the other shoe may drop at any time and the beatings will commence in earnest as soon as Brad has a spreadsheet with leveling figures on it.

[Ixxit]

No Ixxit, you are wrong with me.

I said I enjoyed it all over the weekend. I "supported" it for a full month and basically tried to wipe away the hate since I joined F13. What else should I do?

First, I walk proud of all my fat girls. I just love 'em all.
Second, this is not the case. I am having fun with a game I am not in love with, yet. Maybe it's just a fling, maybe we'll end up married. Can't say yet.

I am not diminishing my good time in Vanguard at all. I am just bored at myself talking good about the game and trying to explain why. Explain why it doesn't suck, or at least why it doesn't suck one inch more then World of Warcraft (it's the fucking same old crap! Now 70% more unpolished but with 30% more calories!) . I am done talking so I will concede anyone interested a win. Vanguard sucks.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back playing it and leveling my Thestran Paladin.
(Oh, by the way, in game I am a fat girl).

Yeah, I know you have been doing a great job bringing to light Vanguard's strengths.   I wasn't poking fun at you at all and only quoted you among others to try to stress the point that there really should be no shame in enjoying the game.   I remember when EQ II and WoW first came out and it was in vogue to bash those who preferred EQ II over WoW for whatever reason (at least at Quarter to Three where I usually hang out).   You couldn't really have a discussion about it without being assailed by a horde of slavering WoWites.  This has the same vibe to it.

Like EQII, Vanguard will continue to mature over time.  It definately has a distinctive new/old  style flavour and a 'worldy' feeling. Keep talking it up.

[Falconeer]

I wasn't poking fun at you at all

Never thought that :)
Just took the chance to explain once more (I am redundant, last girlfriend used to say that to me a lot) my current position about Vanguard.

[Signe]

Someone should smush up all these Vanguard threads and stick them up top.  There seems to be enough playing.  You could just score out UO and put them in there.

[Slayerik]

Someone should smush up all these Vanguard threads and stick them up top.  There seems to be enough playing.  You could just score out UO and put them in there.

Hey now! We have a discussion in there thats never been touched on before. Its about UO trammel and felucia, PVP, and carebears. Feel free to check it out for some insight! ;)

[Falconeer]

Well, actually the amazing part is that no matter the title, all Vanguard threads become the same in a 3 posts timespan.
We could simply merge them all in a "Vanguard sucks" uberthread.

[Signe]

Someone should smush up all these Vanguard threads and stick them up top.  There seems to be enough playing.  You could just score out UO and put them in there.

Hey now! We have a discussion in there thats never been touched on before. Its about UO trammel and felucia, PVP, and carebears. Feel free to check it out for some insight! ;)

Oops.  Sorry.     Maybe they could just tack Vanguard onto the end of that conversation?

[Venkman]

I'd put it in the UO-today whatever-tomorrow one. 

[Surlyboi]

Someone should smush up all these Vanguard threads and stick them up top.  There seems to be enough playing.  You could just score out UO and put them in there.

And risk the wrath of the Wind-up nutsack? Perish the thought! (Even if he is playing Saul the converted WoW fanboy at the moment.  )

[Signe]

Yeah, but he's so cute when he's angry.  I'd risk it.

[Soln]

I've been playing yesterday and today.  All I can say is that any potential this game may have is overshadowed by it being a buggy, unpolished piece of shit. 

<intelligent observations>


I'm dumbfounded.
 

you mean this   or this    or this   or  this   or  this 

man that was tiring.  And I don't feel finished by half.

[Nebu]

Sadly, I enjoyed AC2 the most of all of them... but point made.

[damijin]

My guild is playing Vanguard for lack of anything not-shitty. Apparently the FFA PvP server is cool with 15% money drops and decent death penalties.

As much as I'd love to go grief some noobs, I just can't bring myself to play a game where it would actually be MORE work to download the fucking thing than it would be to drive my ass to the store and buy a copy.

And it's 2007, my ass doesn't go to the store for jack shit.

[Azazel]

What about your Birch Beer?

[Endie]

...or  this 

Man, I never noticed that DnL had Pacman in it.  I gotta go give it another try.

[Nebu]

Things from last night's play session:

1. Heavy tanks appear unable to hold aggro.

2. Shaman pets are still bugged and occasionally will attack group members when healed by disciple spells

3. The level 15 shaman totem quest is bugged.  It allows you to get it at level 12, but if you take it then you don't get the reward at 15.

4. Mobs are still having warping, pathing, and z-axis problems.  I had several mobs hit me from underground.  Fighting on hilly terrain can produce comical results.

5. I fell through the world not once but twice last night.  What really made me laugh is that I fell 4k units vertically and about 6k units horizontally.  I ended up on a plain like 6k s of where I started.

6. Psionicist pets are buggy on terrain as well. 

I find a handful of things like this daily.  After 3 years of development and a lengthy period of beta testing, the lack of polish is pretty apalling. The EQ release had fewer glaring flaws than this... that's not saying much.   

Edit: I'm doing my best to be objective here.  So don't shoot the messenger.

[Trippy]

I had several mobs hit me from underground. 

Heh, just like EQ. It good to see that somethings never change :-D

[Nebu]

Heh, just like EQ. It good to see that somethings never change :-D

I ran into an NPC named Haaden complaining about a lost earring.  Brad is definately trying to draw from the past.  I don't think this is going to end like he had hoped.