Fuckit, Im rerolling warlock.

[SurfD]

Warlock (im assuming he is level 70 in beta) from my guild just posted the following on our guild forums.

They recently made warlock pets gain about 30% of the warlock's shadow damage in spell damage (This was in a while ago, then it got pulled out, now its back in). Here are the results:

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4448894

The cast time on firebolt is 1 sec, so in this pic my pet is doing over 1k dps. This is with black book (about +110 dmg on firebolt), curse of elements, imp scorch, and pretty much every consumable, but even without all this my pet still does about 600 dps.

Now, while i realise that this is an EXTREME case of tweaked out theorycrafting, a fucking IMP should not be able to output nearly equivilent DPS to a level 60 tier 1 mage under ANY circumstances.

[Azazel]

There's something seriously fucked up about Warlocks right now. I can't understand why they're so insane.

[Ironwood]

I'm awaiting the new MTV show "Pimp My Imp".

[ahoythematey]

Bounceback from how often warlocks got fucked over earlier in WoW's gamelife.

[Azaroth]

Warlocks have been overpowered for a LONG, LONG time now. There's actually even hidden text on the webpage designating Warlocks as "cool guys/girls" on their little class description. There were also derogatory remarks made about both Paladins and PVE servers too at one point, until people noticed :P

Anyone want to buy a Warlock account with a Black Book btw?  :-D

[Zetor]

The "cool guy/girl" bit has been there since beta, ya know. And I leveled my 'lock before they were FOTM (10 minute cooldown on deathcoil without the horror effect, soul link working backwards and damaging the warlock when the pet was hit, etc etc). :p

Anyway.. yeah, warlocks are pretty overpowered now. I limit my ego by pvp-ing a lot on my warrior alt.
"what, I can't solo three players simultaneously anymore?!"


-- Z.

[Venkman]

Don't roll anything unless you can both hit 60 and have a lot of time there before the inevitable nerf.

Seriously though, I don't expect a nerf. I expect more power/options added to other classes. 'locks are crazy tough right now. But I think Blizz will begin to notice once they account for 50% of all characters logged in at any given time :)

[lamaros]

As one who has played a warlock since the very first day of live...

Meh. Rolling a class because it's OP is stupid. Play a class because you find it fun.

Warlocks aren't as OP as people think they are either. Nor were they as bad as people say they used to be.

Oh, I suppose you know that the Imp will run out of mana in.. umm... 30 seconds or so.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of some pointless post.

Nextup: Level 70 Arcane/Fire Mage with all consumables blowing all their instacasts! OMG DPS! Let's reroll!

[Slayerik]

Hmmm...I dont know... My hunter rapes warlocks.

My 60 lock I specced to affliction....Noone makes it through the middle in WSG without eventually dying :)

[Venkman]

I killed a Warlock once. It was cool.

Oh, I suppose you know that the Imp will run out of mana in.. umm... 30 seconds or so.

How long does the typical PvP battle in a BG last though? :)

[Dren]

As one who has played a warlock since the very first day of live...

Meh. Rolling a class because it's OP is stupid. Play a class because you find it fun.

Warlocks aren't as OP as people think they are either. Nor were they as bad as people say they used to be.

Oh, I suppose you know that the Imp will run out of mana in.. umm... 30 seconds or so.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of some pointless post.

Nextup: Level 70 Arcane/Fire Mage with all consumables blowing all their instacasts! OMG DPS! Let's reroll!

Not to mention it only takes 1-2 shots to kill an imp.  Hell, I normally just use my imp for the stam and shield buff.  If I actually have it attack anything, I'm having to resummon in 30-50 seconds yet again!  It might be useful in PvP, but anyone with any AOE can even the playing field right quick.

[Morat20]

Hmmm...I dont know... My hunter rapes warlocks.

My 60 lock I specced to affliction....Noone makes it through the middle in WSG without eventually dying :)

So does mine. And then I die from the DoTs. Then I rez with my pet at 400 health with three DoTs ticking, and I scream and hit the mend pet button hoping my improved mend pet will clear the DoTs before he dies and I have to rez him.

God I hate that pet rezzing bug.

And I only rape warlocks if I see them first, they're stupid enough to stick the DoTs on the pet (which, if it's glowing bright red and chewing on them, they tend to), and they don't deathcoil me. Warlock fears are simply overpowered. Are there any other forms of crowd control in the game that don't break on damage? I'm sick of running around for 5 to 10 seconds, totally unable to do crap while I lose half or more of my health from the ticks.

Only counter I know of is bestial wrath or fear ward, and both have to be up when the 'lock starts it. Of course, if I was undead I could just WoTF out of it. (And the hunter trinket doesn't break fears. Just roots, stuns, and snares).

[raydeen]

Shake that paranoia. Can't stop the 'Lock.

[Xanthippe]

I have a new 60 warlock (affliction spec) with crap gear who, believe me, is not OP.  Maybe I'm playing wrong, I don't know, or maybe gear is the difference.  Sure, I can kill warriors sometimes before they can kill me (or after), but there are certainly classes that locks struggle with (hunters, priests, stunlock rogues).

I do not have that new warlock pet.  I hate that new warlock pet when I'm on my hunter.

[Morat20]

I have a new 60 warlock (affliction spec) with crap gear who, believe me, is not OP.  Maybe I'm playing wrong, I don't know, or maybe gear is the difference.  Sure, I can kill warriors sometimes before they can kill me (or after), but there are certainly classes that locks struggle with (hunters, priests, stunlock rogues).

I do not have that new warlock pet.  I hate that new warlock pet when I'm on my hunter.

You know what? I probably wouldn't mind warlocks quite so much if they hadn't put Viper Sting on a 15 second cooldown. Viper Sting was already broken (unlike every other sting, only ONE Viper Sting could be on a target at a time. No stacking from multiple hunters) and while an 1100 mana drain over 8 seconds is painful, it's only a show-stopper in 1v1 PvP (where I'll get it off and you'll lose the mana, or you have the ability to remove the poison and it's a waste of my time).

Warlocks have shot to the top of my Viper list, there's just too damn many running around.

[Merusk]

You know what? I probably wouldn't mind warlocks quite so much if they hadn't put Viper Sting on a 15 second cooldown. Viper Sting was already broken (unlike every other sting, only ONE Viper Sting could be on a target at a time. No stacking from multiple hunters) and while an 1100 mana drain over 8 seconds is painful, it's only a show-stopper in 1v1 PvP (where I'll get it off and you'll lose the mana, or you have the ability to remove the poison and it's a waste of my time).

Warlocks have shot to the top of my Viper list, there's just too damn many running around.

Agreed.  Although I'm pretty sure Scorpid sting never stacked before, either.  I know for certain it doesn't now, but it's amazingly useful since the change in PvP AND PvE.  If anyone actually catches on to that it's going to be nerfed.   

For those going "what change?"  Scorpid now affects it's target with a 5% chance to miss on all melee and ranged attacks, and it works on just about everything, boss or not.  The only thing I've noticed being immune to it are elementals but it's worked on every BWL and ZG boss I've encountered since the change.  (Guild stopped running MC, so I don't know how it works in there.  Probably not on Garr, Baron and Rag, but will on everyone else.)


Anywho, bitching about locks is old and tired.   They're getting set-up to be pwned by rogues with the next patch.  Cloak of Shadows is pure hotness and becomes a core ability for the class.  So, enjoy those double mutilate attacks as the rogue COS's all your dots off when you fall down dead. 

[Righ]

Meh. Rolling a class because it's OP is stupid. Play a class because you find it fun.

Most people find playing an overpowered class to be fun.

[Morat20]

Agreed.  Although I'm pretty sure Scorpid sting never stacked before, either.  I know for certain it doesn't now, but it's amazingly useful since the change in PvP AND PvE.  If anyone actually catches on to that it's going to be nerfed.   

For those going "what change?"  Scorpid now affects it's target with a 5% chance to miss on all melee and ranged attacks, and it works on just about everything, boss or not.  The only thing I've noticed being immune to it are elementals but it's worked on every BWL and ZG boss I've encountered since the change.  (Guild stopped running MC, so I don't know how it works in there.  Probably not on Garr, Baron and Rag, but will on everyone else.)

Anywho, bitching about locks is old and tired.   They're getting set-up to be pwned by rogues with the next patch.  Cloak of Shadows is pure hotness and becomes a core ability for the class.  So, enjoy those double mutilate attacks as the rogue COS's all your dots off when you fall down dead. 

I dump Scorpid on warriors, rogues, and feral druids all the time. (Frankly, I find Druids in bear form the hardest kill as a Hunter. Not so much because they kill me, it just seems like it takes forever to DPS them down. A LOT of mitigation in bear form).

I agree that CoS is the shit. I've watched CoS rogues use it to dump my mark and my scorpian sting (I use both to make them burn CoS rather than vanish). I have found that it's starting to be easy to pick out who is specced with improved stealth. Even with Track Hidden broken, the stealth detection buff it gives works just fine. I pick out rogues and prowling druids easily enough and tend to blow them out of cover. The ones with improved stealth, however, are much harder to spot -- I don't tend to get the lead time with them.

I need to play my rogue more, but he's stuck at level 18.

[caladein]

Warlock fears are simply overpowered. Are there any other forms of crowd control in the game that don't break on damage? I'm sick of running around for 5 to 10 seconds, totally unable to do crap while I lose half or more of my health from the ticks.

Mind Control, Stuns, Roots (Entangling Roots, Frost Nova, Entrapment)... hell, you can't get out of a Stun at all unless you use your PvP trinket. Actually, the Roots and Fears are the only ones that have the "chance to break on damage" in their description.

[Triforcer]

Warlock fears are simply overpowered. Are there any other forms of crowd control in the game that don't break on damage? I'm sick of running around for 5 to 10 seconds, totally unable to do crap while I lose half or more of my health from the ticks.

Mind Control, Stuns, Roots (Entangling Roots, Frost Nova, Entrapment)... hell, you can't get out of a Stun at all unless you use your PvP trinket. Actually, the Roots and Fears are the only ones that have the "chance to break on damage" in their description.

Did you miss the part of his post where he said "totally unable to do crap"?  Of those you listed, only stuns have a similar effect, and you have to remind me what class has the 10 second auto-stun on a 30 sec cooldown.

[Triforcer]

Oh, and priest Mind Control doesn't allow you to sit there as a priest and lob 5000hp of Dots at your MCed target either.

[Triforcer]

In summary, warlocks need to have fear taken away and about a 60% reduction across the board in damage to be balanced.

[Morat20]

Warlock fears are simply overpowered. Are there any other forms of crowd control in the game that don't break on damage? I'm sick of running around for 5 to 10 seconds, totally unable to do crap while I lose half or more of my health from the ticks.

Mind Control, Stuns, Roots (Entangling Roots, Frost Nova, Entrapment)... hell, you can't get out of a Stun at all unless you use your PvP trinket. Actually, the Roots and Fears are the only ones that have the "chance to break on damage" in their description.

Stuns I grant you -- I've been stunlocked to death. But I know most roots and snares allow you to continue to act (entangling roots doesn't prevent you from attacking, using a trinket, casting a spell, whatever). Mind Control too, I guess -- although since they nerfed the MC cap, I haven't seen it used much. Can priests MC in combat, or just out?

Sheeps and Ice traps break on damage.

I don't think I've ever had a Warlock fear break on damage. I tend to remember all those long seconds of running around with DoTs.

Sheeps and ice traps incapacitate me (offhand, I don't know if you can trinket out of either. Trinket effects vary by class), but I regen health and mana and they break on damage. Stunlocks do incapacitate me while doing damage, although at least they take skill to pull off (I generally spam ice trap, stoneform, or Bestial Wrath hoping to get a split second in there -- happens more than you think).

Triforcer: Actually, I think all Warlocks need is to up the chance of fear breaking on damage somewhat. Or shorten the duration of their fear and horror effects. They'd still be insane damage dealers, most people would still end up heading to the GY from DoTs after killing a 'lock. It's just to bring their fear in line with other effects, it's either crowd-control OR damage -- but not both. Not at full duration, at least.

Stunlocks are bad enough, but at least a rogue has to ride my ass to do it -- and be specced right and have the skill to pull it off.

[Zetor]

Being alliance, I barely ever use fear [or the succubus' seduction] to begin with, since an entire horde race is pretty much immune... yet, you have to keep in mind that the locks whose dots hit hard enough that you'll die after they die are heavy affliction specced in glass cannon gear; also, DOT spell damage coefficients are getting a substantial nerf in the next patch or so.

Yah, locks are powerful, and some aspects might need a good nerf [and are getting one, in fact]. But they're not godmode, and hunters can kick my ass in about 5 seconds, during which I might have time to cast one dot between silencing shots, scatter shots and just plain being out of range (or being slowed and stunned by an invulnerable pet + hunter). Rogues can kill me before I come out of cheapshot->kidneyshot, with 0 damage done to them. Etc.

I'm no FOTM-lock either, been playing since closed beta [though it only became my main in early '05].


-- Z.

[Morat20]

Being alliance, I barely ever use fear [or the succubus' seduction] to begin with, since an entire horde race is pretty much immune... yet, you have to keep in mind that the locks whose dots hit hard enough that you'll die after they die are heavy affliction specced in glass cannon gear; also, DOT spell damage coefficients are getting a substantial nerf in the next patch or so.

Yah, locks are powerful, and some aspects might need a good nerf [and are getting one, in fact]. But they're not godmode, and hunters can kick my ass in about 5 seconds, during which I might have time to cast one dot between silencing shots, scatter shots and just plain being out of range (or being slowed and stunned by an invulnerable pet + hunter). Rogues can kill me before I come out of cheapshot->kidneyshot, with 0 damage done to them. Etc.

I'm no FOTM-lock either, been playing since closed beta [though it only became my main in early '05].


-- Z.

Your gear has too much stamina to burn down that fast -- at least for me. I suppose a fully kitted out MM hunter might do it, with a lucky crit string. He'd have silencing shot to help out. That'll scale out over TBC, however -- resiliance in PvP gear will mean he simply can't crit that often.

As a BM specced Hunter in decent gear, a 1v1 fight with a warlock is tough. I drop my pet on him, hit BW and intimidate him long enough to get a sting on (Scorpion for a 1v1 fight). I'll still have three+ dots ticking on me when he dies, and I'll be well below half health. If he's got that new pet, I'll kill him then die. (I simply can't keep the damage steady without a FD in there wiht that damn felguard). If he's got a succubus, and is smart, I generally die.

I can't see range being much of an issue, or scatter shot for that matter. Scatter shot is short range, 3 second stun -- which breaks on damage. Only MM specs have it, and they'll drop it to get back to range if you're in their dead zone.

I can see stunlock rogues taking you, but they can take anyone besides a Druid in bear form. And if you have your paranoia pet out, it's much harder for them to stunlock you. (I see a surprising number of people with that pet out in PvP, especially those defending nodes).

[Venkman]

You can trinket out of polymorph (sheep), depending on your class.

The problem with Warlocks in my mind is their ability to do three equally very-powerful things concurrently: DoT, pets and Damage. I can't think of any other class that can stack damage output like that with three completely unique ability sets that work so closely together. Alone none of the three are particularly tough. But together it makes it very hard for them to balance I imagine.

It won't matter to me come 1/16. I chose a PvE server specifically so I could PvP whenever I wanted. So we can reassess all of the resiliency/nerf/no-scaling stuff again at 70 when my battlegroup starts getting bored enough to PvP fulltime again.

[Morat20]

As a Hunter, I can only get out of stuns, slows, and immobolizing effects. Not fears or polymorphs. Frankly, I rarely use the thing. (I think it got it's most work in Maradaun of all places, so I could break out of those tree snares).

I probably wouldn't bitch as much about Warlocks if my pets rezzed with me (can you tell that's pissing me off?), or when it does rez didn't have DoTs on it. I'm kind of sick of rezzing every other time and having to empty my mana bar (and feed my pet) to get the stupid thing back up. As a BM spec, I'm gimped without my pet.

Still, it really does boil down to 'locks having three really solid competencies. I wouldn't care about the fears if I didn't take so much damage while running around helpless. I wouldn't care about the DoTs if they weren't on me during a 10-second fear. (Not to mention that nothing breaks Horror). I really don't care about the pets, since I believe the Succubus's charm breaks on damage. Although the new pet is majorly annoying, I consider it a very solid PvP pet and not unbalanced in the slightest. I've started to use frost traps a lot more because of them -- those are a lot more useful in PvP than the freezing traps.

It's really the combination of fears and DoTs that cause so much problems. I'm not sure how to fix that without seriously impacting the way Warlocks PvE solo, without more or less requiring solo PvE use a tank pet.

Maybe make Shadow Resistance apply to fears? (I don't believe it does). Diminishing returns on fears? A PvP-only chance to break on damage? (It could be very low -- the more DoTs you land on me, the closer it approaches certainty that the fear will break).

Like I said, if it wasn't for the pet rezzing bug I'd probably not bitch nearly as loud. After all, I seek out Warlocks. They're dangerous, and as a hunter I'm better equipped than most to deal with them. Nonetheless, the fear + DoT mechanic is a real issue. I'm okay with seeing how it shakes out at 70, though. I just see how a lot of the PvP gripes are going to mostly resolve themselves by 70 (warrior gear scaling, resiliance gear, more stamina gear) but I'm not sure if it's going to fix that or not.

[Zetor]

Diminishing returns, early breaking due to damage, shadow resistance reducing its potency -- these things are already in the game. Yeah, you may remember 'that one time' when you got feared for 12 seconds with 4 dots on you, but honestly, I have yet to see anyone stay feared for more than 2 seconds from my instant howl of terror [only fear I use in pvp nowadays], if they're taking ANY kind of damage. Diminishing returns apply to fear and seduce [they share the same timer, in fact], so the second one will only last 1/2 the time, the third one 1/4, and you'll be immune to subsequent ones until the 15-sec diminishing returns timer is up. This is also why I don't bother fearing as an alliance lock, btw, since most of my enemies are guaranteed to have at least one fear break, putting it on diminishing returns immediately. Fear can also be resisted [priests are notoriously hard to land a fear on] and high SR helps to break it early.

Thing with hunters is.. marksman hunters have insane range. 40+ yards, 46+ talented? My dots have a 36y range, fear has a 26y range [this is assuming an affliction spec, otherwise it's 30 and 20]. If the hunter sees me coming, even if I'm on my epic mount, I can only very rarely make it to the deadzone without losing more than 3/4 my hp (and I do have 5.5k), then I get scattershotted and they get soem more range to hit me with another damaging shot, maybe silence shot. (yes, I'm aware that felhunter and spellstone can dispel silence + concussion shot, but it usually doesn't matter at that point, not to mention that I sometimes get stunned from the conc-shot as well :P) I'm also not casting anything that's not instant with the pet beating on me.. if I get my AOE fear off in the deadzone, the hunter's probably dead, but that doesn't happen all that often if the hunter gets the jump on me.
Beastmaster "big red" hunters just tear me up and I very often die before the intimidate and concussion shot wear off [they're out of dot range at this point, usually]. I admit it's mostly tier2 or better (equivalent to rank 14 stuff.. man, that xbow hurts) that's giving me trouble, but my gear is roughly equivalent to tier2 also (a bit weaker, but eh).


-- Z.

[lamaros]

When did this place turn into the normal forums?

Seriously, QQ more?

[caladein]

When did this place turn into the normal forums?

Seriously, QQ more?

I had a lot more written, but that seems like a better thing to say then aynthing.

But, just to get some facts straight... Psychic Scream lasts 9s at most (PvP set bonus), Howl of Terror has a cast time unless you're deep Affliction and lasts 8s, Death Coil has a 2 minute cooldown (and only lasts 3s), and Intimidating Shout has a 3 minute cooldown.

[Morat20]

Hunter max range is 41 yards -- that's with talents. 36 otherwise. Same as a fire mage. (Admittedly, Hawk's Eye is an easy talent to get). It might be 42 -- 3 points in Hawk's Eye is +6 yards.

Conc-shot proccing stun requires a talent hardly anybody takes (too low a chance to proc, and not worth it at all once the TBC talents came out).

My question is: Why are you trying for the deadzone? Why not hit him with everything you have once you get into range? That's what all the warlocks who routinely kill me do. You've got as much HP as he does, and your spells aren't mitigated by armor. Sure, you have to close to 36 yards. So what? Most hunters are simply NOT going to be able to keep you at 41 or 42 yards. Not defending nodes in AB, not in the tunnel or flag room of WSG, not in AV. There's only a handful of places where a hunter could keep you at that exact range. And since you rely on DoTs, you only have to be close to drop the DoT.

Pets are being normalized to 2.0 attack speed in TBC, which means the fastest possible pet attack is going to be maybe 1.2 or 1.3 (not that I was using the .7 broken tooth anyways) -- which should fix your interrupt woes, but at the price of far more damage. I've yet to see a fear break from DoTs, or even damage. I've yet to notice diminishing returns. It's possible because the Warlock I was fighting has already killed me (or me him) by the time he's ready for another fear.

I happily admit that if you catch me with my Beastial Rage ready, you're in for a world of hurt. Assuming I see you at range. (Strangely enough, in PvP, I often notice the warlock by the sudden burning sensation of losing all my HP). Even then, I gotta hope you don't have that new pet out -- the one that knocks me on my ass while doing insane DPS to me.

[Merusk]

Being alliance, I barely ever use fear [or the succubus' seduction] to begin with, since an entire horde race is pretty much immune...

This is THE most infuriating thing about playing Alliance.  Not the racial, but the attitude.  I pvp with my priest from time to time and I use fear every time I can.  Fear-bombing AV Turtles, AB flags, and WSG flag-carriers.  As soon as I do if SOMEONE, ANYONE would follow-up it'd work just fine.

   Hell, even when they don't I've feared most of the horde team, since Undead aren't as omnipresent as they were at release.   Fear is less useless as Alliance than we've taught ourselves to believe, but nobody even TRIES using it anymore to see that.


I'm marks spec and Locks pwn me when they get the drop, but then do so mages, warriors, etc.  When I see locks first, however, I can take any of the equally-geared ones down just fine.  :-D

(Frankly, I find Druids in bear form the hardest kill as a Hunter. Not so much because they kill me, it just seems like it takes forever to DPS them down. A LOT of mitigation in bear form).

Yes indeed. Arcane shot is nice in that it ignores armor, but it's still not enough to get them down on its own, even with Improved Barrage.  Then again, I only JUST put 2+2 together and realized "hey dumbass, scare beast works on ferals."  I've yet to come up against one solo since then, to see just how much it helps.

[Morat20]

Yes indeed. Arcane shot is nice in that it ignores armor, but it's still not enough to get them down on its own, even with Improved Barrage.  Then again, I only JUST put 2+2 together and realized "hey dumbass, scare beast works on ferals."  I've yet to come up against one solo since then, to see just how much it helps.

A ton. It's nasty to do in duels. However, scare beast is interruptable -- so it's best used on druids in bear form when they're engaged with someone else. I make it a habit of fearing pets and druids off the squishes that way. I wonder how many of them work out the Hunter did it?

It's not a long fear -- I think damage breaks it, and it doesn't last long at all in PvP -- but it generally sends them somewhere else for several seconds. It'd be interesting to couple with traps and see what works best.

[Merusk]

Well soon as I posted that I came up against a feral on my own in the bg.   I think I outgeared him in my 3-piece GM, 3DS w/ Rhok, but he got eaten alive.  Arcane shot-scorpid, then he Feral charged. Soon as I was out of the stun, frost trap, scare beast (he only 'lengthened the duration by about two hits.) and I was back at range and arcane-multi-silent he was dead.

I wish I'd remembered that spell earlier.  It hasn't been on my hotbar since I was in my 20's 2 years ago. 

[Morat20]

Use it to scare pets off the casters and priests, so you don't have to waste time killing them. Although, given the current problems with pet rezzing, it's probably worth it just to kill Hunter pets. They'll rez and either be gimped (no pet) or empty thier mana bar raising and healing it, leaving them with another minute or so before they can rejoin combat.

You can really screw hunters -- especially the BM specced ones -- by killing their pets in  BGs now. For one thing, going red requires my pet be out and alive. So I have no choice but to raise it, heal it, feed it, then mana up. 30 seconds or more each rez period where I'm sitting on my but instead of multi-shotting the clothies.

But it's fun doing that to druids. :)