Vanguard Beta

[Strazos]

I had a monk in EQ once named Showa Stoppah.

Unfortunately, I did not play her enough to actually put the Stoppah surname on.

[Falconeer]

praising the 5 FPS they get in the middle of nowhere as a brilliant cockblock designed to make sure ONLY people running 6k rigs 

Vanguard scores higher than 5fps on anything better than a 1980s Casio pocket calculator. I am sure there are lots of 2007 releases that will really run at 5fps on your computer but I don't see you bitching about every single one of them.
Finally, assuming you actually managed to see the game, you are talking about a beta client that's not even in its final stage.

There's nothing much I can do for you than quote myself from post #6 of this very topic:

Drop that attitude. The amount of forum kudos you can gain by bashing Vanguard is capped at 20. After that, you have to buy new skills or just levelgrind a little more (with autoattack).

[Modern Angel]

The mole! Oh you are a wily one, waiting 365 posts in before the reveal. My hat's off to you, rapscallion!

[Falconeer]

Kids these days...

[Venkman]

This has come up before, most recently in the Tabula Rasa thread. The point isn't the 5fps. It's that it's 5fps for an MMOG. You want to cast as wide a net possible there or risk losing people to those games that do . Yes, some folks will upgrade their rigs for an MMOG. No, it's not nearly the same percentage of players as it is in FPS games. It's a question of motivation: what matters in an MMOG is fairly different than an FPS.

[Signe]

Just the thought of Vanguard makes me feel all emo inside. 



 

[geldonyetich]

Actually, I don't think low FPS hurt MMORPG much, because they've lag-friendly gameplay that basically require you click once on a target, turn on your autoattack, and ride the hotbar from there.  There some more actiony MMORPGs, like City of Heroes, that have a hard time with low FPS.  However, diku-like ones run pretty playable at low FPS.  Case in point: EQ2.

[Morat20]

This has come up before, most recently in the Tabula Rasa thread. The point isn't the 5fps. It's that it's 5fps for an MMOG. You want to cast as wide a net possible there or risk losing people to those games that do . Yes, some folks will upgrade their rigs for an MMOG. No, it's not nearly the same percentage of players as it is in FPS games. It's a question of motivation: what matters in an MMOG is fairly different than an FPS.

There's also the fact that really low FPS makes many games look like shit. Who wants a brand new game that looks like shit? Hardcore players will upgrade their PCs. Most people will say "This looks like shit" and go play something else.

And it's really not the FPS that's the problem in Vanguard. It's that weird hitching feel as it loads up the world around you as you move. Almost stuttering at times. For people used to playing WoW, that's going to look awful.

[LC]

praising the 5 FPS they get in the middle of nowhere as a brilliant cockblock designed to make sure ONLY people running 6k rigs 

Vanguard scores higher than 5fps on anything better than a 1980s Casio pocket calculator. I am sure there are lots of 2007 releases that will really run at 5fps on your computer but I don't see you bitching about every single one of them.
Finally, assuming you actually managed to see the game, you are talking about a beta client that's not even in its final stage.

There's nothing much I can do for you than quote myself from post #6 of this very topic:

Drop that attitude. The amount of forum kudos you can gain by bashing Vanguard is capped at 20. After that, you have to buy new skills or just levelgrind a little more (with autoattack).

I have also seen Vansuck first hand. (I have not signed an NDA. I never even signed up for Vansuck beta.) The game runs like shit on anything but the minimum settings. When you set it to the minimum settings it looks just like asherons call 1 (before the graphics update) and still runs at <24 fps. I laughed as my friend was killed by a snake that was at least 100 yards behind him.

[Tale]

Question: where is Brad McQuaid? He's been totally silent for weeks on the Vanguard public boards at least. That's out of character for Aradune.

Edit: here's his dev tracker in the VG forums: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4763625

[Signe]

Someone said somewhere and I'm sure it wasn't the Vanguard forum because I haven't actually read a post there in ages... that he was gone from before Xmas until after New Years.  I don't remember the posted dates, but I read it just before Xmas.  Somewhere.  Unless I've accidentally made this up.  Again.   

[Tale]

That seems weird because the December newsletter says "We are cancelling Christmas" and they're about to go to open beta. Then again, if I was him I'd probably want a month off before dealing with all that.

[Signe]

Okay, so maybe I made it up.  It wasn't on purpose.  Seriously.  I'm not Fox.  I read that somewhere about someone though.

[Tale]

You are a fox, Signe. You are.

[Mi_Tes]

While looking for the Collector's Edition of the new WOW, I saw a release date for Vanguard of 1/29.  That was a hell of a lot sooner than I expected! 

Below is the last topic from Aradune in the Vanguard Forums.  For anyone who missed the funny, I just had to share that Brad's beta is bigger and longer.  Guess we will see very soon if those qualities make Brad's Vanguard any better.  My guess is Vanguard will initially sell up to 225K boxes and after 3 months have less than 125K subs, falling some, and then holding under 100K subs.


 http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1720812#post1720812

09-25-06, 04:45 PM    #85 
Aradune Mithara
Sigil Games Online
Join Date: 2003 Jul Re: Download Size of Beta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaryn 
Hey Brad, any chance of getting tee-shirts for your employees that say "Our beta is bigger than yours" 

And longer
__________________
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. 


and
     

12-06-06, 03:06 PM    #92 
Aradune Mithara
Sigil Games Online
 

Join Date: 2003 Jul Re: Download Size of Beta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We're getting it down to about 18 gigs for launch by optmizing

woohoo
__________________
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. 

[Simond]

Question: where is Brad McQuaid? He's been totally silent for weeks on the Vanguard public boards at least. That's out of character for Aradune.

Edit: here's his dev tracker in the VG forums: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4763625

No, no, no - Brad is chatty as long as the game's still in beta. Once it goes live (or, apparently, is about to start open beta) he vanishes and is replaced by people like Abashi.

[Miasma]

They keep saying that there will be no official forums once it launches too.

[Simond]

That'll last until SOE buys Sigil out. ;)

[SpaceDrake]

Below is the last topic from Aradune in the Vanguard Forums.  For anyone who missed the funny, I just had to share that Brad's beta is bigger and longer.  Guess we will see very soon if those qualities make Brad's Vanguard any better.  My guess is Vanguard will initially sell up to 225K boxes and after 3 months have less than 125K subs, falling some, and then holding under 100K subs.

That's pretty generous. "The buzz" I've heard in various places would indicate that it might sell in six-digits initially, but I'd be goddamn stunned if it didn't pull an Auto Assault and tank into the four-digits in terms of long-term subs. There's just nothing being offered here that can't be found elsewhere.

[Strazos]

But but but, what about the card game of Diplomacy!?

[Simond]

That's pretty generous. "The buzz" I've heard in various places would indicate that it might sell in six-digits initially, but I'd be goddamn stunned if it didn't pull an Auto Assault and tank into the four-digits in terms of long-term subs. There's just nothing being offered here that can't be found elsewhere.

...even on SOE's own All-Access pass, to boot.

I suppose that Smed figured it'd be better for EQ/EQ2 players to fork over for an AAP to try out Vanguard rather than unsub. Quite canny, really.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

Already getting some guildies that have been absent coming back to SWG after the "wow, cool a new game this must rock" wore off and the real game was revealed for what it is. Kinda sad when a BETA does not hold their interest at least till launch when the would have spent money.

[Mi_Tes]

Below is the last topic from Aradune in the Vanguard Forums.  For anyone who missed the funny, I just had to share that Brad's beta is bigger and longer.  Guess we will see very soon if those qualities make Brad's Vanguard any better.  My guess is Vanguard will initially sell up to 225K boxes and after 3 months have less than 125K subs, falling some, and then holding under 100K subs.

That's pretty generous. "The buzz" I've heard in various places would indicate that it might sell in six-digits initially, but I'd be goddamn stunned if it didn't pull an Auto Assault and tank into the four-digits in terms of long-term subs. There's just nothing being offered here that can't be found elsewhere.

The generosity came from the Vanguard boards, seeing that many EQ players will buy it just because it is a "Brad McQuaid" game and the fact that there hasn't been many new MMO's out lately.  I think many will be unsubbing very quickly because they will have a difficult time installing and running this game on their systems, many will realize that it wasn't the game that it was made out to be, and I agree with you, almost everything Vanguard can be found elsewhere with more fun.  If it was anything but a fantasy game (built to bring out the catass), I would agree that it would be in the 4 digit numbers, but given who it is build for, I don't see any less than 50K-100K subs for as long as it takes to max out at least one character. 

Given how much time and money this game has taken to make, this game will never be able to keep over 200-250K subs it needs to make money anyway, so I guess the bets are on for how much money this game will loose.  The next few months should be fun to watch.   

[HRose]

My bet is 60k after three/four month.

The interesting part is that EQ2 will be a much better game. And that SOE is just trading its own subscribers between games without getting any new ones.

[SpaceDrake]

My bet is 60k after three/four month.

The interesting part is that EQ2 will be a much better game. And that SOE is just trading its own subscribers between games without getting any new ones.

Are they, though? I had forgotten about the All-Access Pass.

Still, given the state of the client, this won't be a financial success.

[Falconeer]

But but but, what about the card game of Diplomacy!?

, darn...

can't wait to stop speculate and actually start talking about the game...

[HRose]

Are they, though? I had forgotten about the All-Access Pass.

Still, given the state of the client, this won't be a financial success.

How are things different?

I think that all-access pass still gives money depending whether the player logs in the game or not. Even if they can "falsify" the sub numbers by counting those subscribed to all those titles what matters is the money that goes to Sigil. If you play EQ2, Vanguard and maybe even SWG or EQ then surely much less money goes to Sigil.

The other important point is that EQ2 and Vanguard aren't going to be so different experiences that you are going to have an interest to play both. It's already very hard to find a player that maintains a sub to both WoW and EQ2. In this case the games are even more similar. So why playing both? How many powerplayers are there that two or more mmorpgs aren't enough? The two games just aren't different enough to justify playing both. And I'm still convinced that EQ2 is a much better game and if you have to choose, you'll choose that one.

About the client, yeah. A while ago I wrote that all the design issues and principles behind Vanguard and that were criticized may not even be a relevant reason why the game will do poorly. I would be much more worried about the technology they have and production values. I mean, Vanguard was supposed to have the very best technology, graphic and and art direction. While today it can hardly compete even with EQ2, that also had to deal with a terrible client, not so great art direction, poor animations and so on. Those problems have the priority over Brad's arguable game design choices.

EQ2's devs still today are fighting against all the bad decisions at the basis of EQ2, Vanguard looks like starting even more behind from EQ2 at release.

The point is: when Vanguard will perform way below the expectations (assuming it will), SOE and Sigil will continue to support it more strongly than ever (as SOE did on EQ2 under Hartsman's direction), or it will just be pushed forward with just the vitality support, as it happened with Matrix Online, while Sigil will be disbanded and then absorbed once again by SOE?

[Falconeer]

I foresee lots and lots of people dropping EQ2 for Vanguard. We'll talk again in a year (hopefully earlier...).

EDIT: I am not foreseeing a bright future for Vanguard. Actually, the opposite it's true (much like everyone else). But I doubt it will be able to score under any expectation, given that expectations are the lowest I ever heard for any "major" mmorpg.

[Sairon]

I think A LOT of people will try the preview trial ( open beta in MMO terms ), and very few of those actually buying the game. I think the playerbase for these kind of dikus wants a little more of an upgrade before leaving their "work" behind in for example EQ2. It could very well crash and burn faster than AA.

[HRose]

EDIT: I am not foreseeing a bright future for Vanguard. Actually, the opposite it's true (much like everyone else). But I doubt it will be able to score under any expectation, given that expectations are the lowest I ever heard for any "major" mmorpg.

Of course these days everyone expect 1M easy.

But Brad still said he expect 300-400k at least. That is close to twice what EQ2 got (I'm not sure nowadays).

And you really believe EQ2's players will consider Vanguard a better game?

[Falconeer]

I know Eq2 players are seriously burned out. And I am talking of long term players, not the new ones that are just appreciating the game as it is now. If you played EQ2 for 2 years, you don't give a dildo about how much it has improved. Quite the opposite is true: lots of the oldest players left a long ago and if you can meet them occasionally these days it's because everyone likes to pay a visit when a new patch or expansion is released. One of the things you can't almost find at all in EQ2 is enthusiasm: sure it has its lovers (I am one of them, after all), but it's a game that comes with a moan included in the subscription. Even its biggest fans secretly hide the big delusion (?) of what it could have been, but it's not. And lots of those who are still playing it make no mystery of the fact that, given you don't like/want to play WoW, there's nothing else worth playing in the fantasy diku market (Actually, I can't recall any other professional fantasy diku released since WoW/EQ2, and I mean 2 years... 25 months! Can you?).

So:

a) lots of the former hardcore eq2 players already left the ship - although they are still paying the subscription (a.k.a. the Nostalgia pass... so no one can say you dropped the old EQ1 account.. or you let your SWG house decay) to casually login from time to time and say hello to the guild/family.. this give the false idea that EQ2 has more players than what's actually true.

b) lots of the former, and the latter, eq2 players are deluded EQ players who couldn't find a home for their original eq needings. More than half of my guild kept talking about moving to Vanguards since early 2005, and no they didn't stopped when the game supposedly got better with time.
So they will switch to Vanguard. And it's not important at all if Vanguard will deliver the experience they are looking for, the proof of this being EQ2 itself: they stick to it for two years despite hating it. EQ2 was NOTHING of what they were waiting for, but still it was the *closest* thing, so they played it anyway for two years (on and off, of course... as very very few people played it without  taking breaks and pauses... and we are back to the "enthusiasm" part).

c) as I said, they are burned out and hungry for something new, but not that new. While LoTRO will try to scratch off from WoW a handful of players, Vanguard is going for the EQ2 audience in the same identical way EQ2 went for the EQ1 one. The entire argument that Vanguard could stomp EQ2's feet was raised back in the days when EQ2 was announced and EQ1 was still going strong. Apparently, it's their strategy, they believe in it. Only difference here is Vanguard could merge the two EQs, and I am pretty sure this is what Smed is hoping for, especially after the EQ2 commercial fiasco. I think the main and only reason why SOE "bought" Vanguard and Brad back is because they failed to make a true Everquest sequel (lore aside), they failed the EQ audience and now they want those customers back (for starters).

Well, I could go on a lot, but to answer your question: roughly 50% of the actual EQ2 players will stick to it as it is exactly the kind of game they want to play. The majority of them being the "newest" players or well-established Guilds that love to have the edge and the "serverfirsts" more than actually enjoying the game. Another 50% will move to Vanguard, cause it is exactly what they wanted to play in the first place and patiently waited to be released while mindlessly playing EQ2 to kill boredom in the meantime.

On expectations: Brad says 300k - 400k but I think he *hopes* to get 400k players, different story from *expecting* it (I don't care what he says, he's got no nerves o' steel and I am sure he has nightmares about hooded-axe-wielding-killer-subscription-figures all the time). Reading f13 at a glance would make any casual lurker think Vanguard will score as bad as Dark and Light or Horizons, being probably less fun than those two joined together. Those I call public expectations, and based on those I think should Vanguard reach 300k subs, it should be considered a success. Anyway, I doubt it will be able to go under any realistic expectation.

Disclaimer: the above considerations are just based on a personal view of the EQ2 state of the game. I am not even taking into account Vanguard's quality, as it still counts as uncharted lands to me.

[geldonyetich]

I'd like to throw in here that many of the same reasons EQ2 players may be burnt from the game applies to all games.  WoW, a game I've doomcast incorrectly (I say, lest everybody forget and forgive me) is no more immune to this effect than EQ2.

Of course, all this really establishes is that there's flow of players between existing MMORPGs and new ones.  Did we honestly believe this was not the case?

[Simond]

I think Falconeer has some good points, but I can think of an excellent counterpoint: Old (ex-)EQers go on about enjoying camping mobs, racing to named and so on but when that's actually put to the test, I suspect quite a few of the 'ZOMG I quit EQ2. Vanguard FTW' players will skulk back to EQ2.

After all, it's one thing to be nostalgic about camping the FBSS in Guk...it's quite another to give up your nice instanced house (which you've just got decorated just the way you want it) and your top-end gear and your level whatever character just to start again from scratch where you'll need to camp for hours on end for the chance to get the good loot/housing plot/etc - and that's if you can even get on The List. Or get into The Uberguild of whichever server. (Case in point: The Pregression servers in EQ).

If you cannot, well...that high level character back in EQ2 starts to look a lot more appealing again.

I predict server merges in Vanguard within six months of launch.

[Sairon]

I haven't played this game first hand, however I frequently talk to a friend who's an old school EQ player. The guy has been on the L2 train twice, tried most and even liked a few other Korean games. He's certainly not the hard to please type and should catter pretty nicely to the audience Vanguard is trying to capture. He couldn't stand Vanguard for more than a couple of days and haven't looked back yet. Sure it's only a single person so not exactly of statistical significance though, but Vanguard seems to be targeting a very small market of players and it doesn't even seem like they're getting the majority of those customers.

EDIT: typo

[Venkman]

While I don't think it would drive them to 500k users, I do think we shouldn't forget the Xbox 360 angle. Yea yea, "no plans" and whatnot. But afaik they are using some of the XNA tools, as that wasn't of the casualties when they moved from hat hasn't changed even with them moving from co-publishing with Microsoft to with SOE instead. Could be wrong.

Otherwise, everything's already been said.