Vanguard Beta

[Tale]

The amusing thing about the Vanguard NDA is that one of the sites with the most  -breaks (FoH MMOG Discussion) also has frequent visits from Brad.

To the point that he started the thread they're using to break the NDA.

[Tale]

Curious is it NDA legal to talk/message to another BETA tester if you know they are a BETA tester? I am not referring to this game but really any BETA really. I assume that most NDA's have more or less the same language.

As I understand it, the Vanguard NDA prohibits any discussion of Vanguard beta outside the beta forums and the game itself. PMs, non-Sigil private boards for beta testers, etc, are all against the NDA, and they apparently enforce it.

NDAs for game betas could theoretically be acted on like NDAs for any physical product. For example, you sign an NDA to test a company's revolutionary power tool design for carpenters. If you are found to have leaked details of the product to rival manufacturers, the company wil try to nail your ass to the wall for millions of dollars in lost income. It just so happens that many game beta testers don't really get the concept and tend not to read the words, but these NDAs could be similarly enforced. Non-disclosure agreement: you legally agreed not to say anything.

I'm told guilds have been removed from beta if Sigil has discovered they have private Vanguard beta discussion forums between their members. I recall one of the public Vanguard beta newsletters asked people to report any such private guild forums to Sigil. Which increases the outrageousness of Brad's participation in the FoH forum. I'm not a lawyer, but I can't see a court taking the Vanguard NDA seriously when the CEO publicly turns a blind eye to constant NDA breaches on FoH and contributes to threads where others are breaking his NDA.

[geldonyetich]

NDA breakages are apparently starting to get out of hand for the game.  It's beginning to sound like if I spend time watching the Vanguard boards I can find out everything I need to know about this game by reading the messages before they're moderated.

Que, "If you can't enforce it, lift the restriction" argument.

[Falconeer]

Why am I so rabidly interested in Vanguard?
So simple. Can you say Uberdiku ?

I played Dikus and EverQuest bastard sons in a form or another for the last 8 years, now I wanna see the end of the story, I wanna see the biggest one of them all.[/size]

www.worldofwarcraft.com
 

Please. WoW is a watered down EQ. How can it be an uberdiku? Cause Raph said so? Or maybe you meant an uberpopular diku.
Definitely not an uberdiku.

[WindupAtheist]

Whether you like it or not, WoW is the final evolution of the diku.  The biggest, the most successful, with the most people willing to say it's fun.  VG, even if it wasn't the clusterfuck we all know it's going to be, would never garner enough users to be anything but an grindy irrelevant little subspecies.

[Rasix]

Is there enough interest around here for me to try and weasel some beta invites for F13 people? 

I never realized that you had that kind of power.  I continue to underestimate you!

Never underestimate the poooooower of the crazy man.

Put your faith in Cheddar, because I don't think the staff will lift a finger for this game.

[schild]

what?

[Rasix]

what?

Are you going to be submitting a list to the Vanguard CM?  :-D

[schild]

What?

[Falconeer]

Whether you like it or not, WoW is the final evolution of the diku.  The biggest, the most successful, with the most people willing to say it's fun.  VG, even if it wasn't the clusterfuck we all know it's going to be, would never garner enough users to be anything but an grindy irrelevant little subspecies.

Aside from popularity, I think you are wrong, unless you consider WoW "the final evolution" and "the biggest" just because of its huge subscriber base.
We'll talk again as soon as NDA will be lifted.

[Venkman]

It all comes down to how you measure diku: by game mechanic alone or by game mechanic and popularity.

[Falconeer]

In this case, I was thinking about game mechanics, game world vastity and amount of content.

But beware, I am not talking about Vanguard being the biggest, not until I try it. It just "promises" to be and it could. We'll see. As I stated elsewhere I am not a VG fanboi yet, just an interested watcher.
I am just saying that WoW, based on the three elements I mentioned above, is FAR from being an uberdiku. More like a slight enhancement of EQ, and not in all the three parts, given the 8 years of EQ expansions.

Again, I am NOT talking about overall quality of WoW, because I think it's a masterpiece from a certain point of view and it's by far the smoothest diku ever possible. Just not the ultimate one, cause it adds too little, graphics and accessibility aside, to the EQ formula. Especially mechanics-wise and world-wise.

And it's not true I don't like WoW. I liked it and loved it for 2 weeks. It just grew old very very fast, for the above mentioned reasons. I still think it's great and understand why so many mmorpg-novices love it like most of us loved EQ back in the days. I am just a little more confused about veterans enjoying it SO MUCH.

[Venkman]

Personally, size to me matters much less than content relevancy and density. AC1 was an enormous world, half empty. All of EQ1 zones strung together would take six solid hours to run across, most of it irrelevant (West Karana anyone?). World size, like "seamless world", just aren't selling points to folks who've played enough of these games. And that's VGs core audience.

Otherwise, I hear ya on WoW. I love it on and off. I do think you undersell its integrated PvP as a separate and useful method of advancement that has no analog in EQ. But otherwise agree WoW is EQ1++ with a low barrier enough to attract millions where EQ (nor VG) ever would.

[Falconeer]

World size, like "seamless world", just aren't selling points to folks who've played enough of these games. And that's VGs core audience.

I admit that, and I admit that world size and exploration capabilities are selling points to me. Actually that's 50% of why I love Test Drive Unlilmited.
Still, I like to think that most of VG selling points are yet covered by , so we'll see.

[Nija]

I love sifting through these brown-nosing red name "NDAs should be respected!" threads.

Pathetic.

The game blows FYI.

[Tale]

Your respect is irrelevant to an NDA. It just sets the conditions under which you can be wtfpwned for a breach. If you choose to breach, that's your gamble. If you choose to breach on someone else's forums, you are forcing them to join your gamble. They might not want to.

[Rhonstet]

I love sifting through these brown-nosing red name "NDAs should be respected!" threads.

Pathetic.

The game blows FYI.

If a game sucks, and you break the NDA, you can probably be sued once the game sucks.  That would probably make for a fascinating court case about total abdication of personal and professional responsibility from all involved.

If a game is awesome, and you break the NDA, then you're just generating good press and promoting exclusion.

If a game is so-so, and you break the NDA, its free advertising for the niche for something that would be flash-in-the-pan anyways. 

Sounds like win-win-win to me.  Why the fuck do they even call it a 'beta' anymore...

[Endie]

...But otherwise agree WoW is EQ1++ with a low barrier enough to attract millions where EQ (nor VG) ever would.

To be pedantic, it is the pre-increment operator : ++EQ1.

[Venkman]

I was going by the DAoC creature level qualifier.

And I have no idea what a pre-increment operator is :)

[Cheddar]

Wow.  I am beginning to think it is best not to touch this one!

[Endie]

I was going by the DAoC creature level qualifier.

And I have no idea what a pre-increment operator is :)

Sorry, I thought you were making a C++ joke.  I debated long and hard before writing the next geeky bit, but hey, knowledge is A Good.  Basically, if you assign the value of ++EQ1 to a variable, it is made equal to EQ1 plus one (and EQ1 is also incremented by one).  If you assign the value of EQ1++ then your variable, then it is made equal to EQ1, then EQ1 is incremented by one.  So saying WoW is equal to EQ1++ (the way I thought you were using it) is kinda like saying it is the same as EQ1, but EQ1 is then made better.

Titter.  See what I did there?

Lord, I know I will regret this post.

[Simond]

Sounds like win-win-win to me.  Why the fuck do they even call it a 'beta' anymore...

You can always taken the cynic's route and ask "If this game is going to be so great, why does it need an NDA until just before launch?"

[Calantus]

Wouldn't EQ2 be EQ++? In which case I disagree entirely that WoW is the same as EQ2.

[Venkman]

Sorry, I thought you were making a C++ joke.  I debated long and hard before writing the next geeky bit, but hey, knowledge is A Good.  Basically, if you assign the value of ++EQ1 to a variable, it is made equal to EQ1 plus one (and EQ1 is also incremented by one).  If you assign the value of EQ1++ then your variable, then it is made equal to EQ1, then EQ1 is incremented by one.  So saying WoW is equal to EQ1++ (the way I thought you were using it) is kinda like saying it is the same as EQ1, but EQ1 is then made better.

That actually makes sense. The only thing I know about C is to use ! before something to say it's not-something. Like WoW =! SWG, right?

And if I drive this to the fourth page, you'll be safe. Nobody uses those page buttons anymore :)

[Shavnir]

Actually its != not =!.

[geldonyetich]

IMLTHO, FFXI is EQ++.  EQ2 is a considerably more casual friendly game.  Vanguard may have been plotting to be an EQ++, but from what I understand they've changed direction a bit, much to the chagrin of their more hardcore fans.

[schild]

FoH is a really fucking terrible forum. While I can see the appeal of NeoGAF, I can't see the appeal of that shit. I need to think of something clever to word/replace/censor the FoH acronym.

[Lantyssa]

Full of Herpes?

[geldonyetich]

That's a waste of a perfectly good letter F in an unassigned acronym.

[Margalis]

Yes, Geldon is right that FFXI is really EQ1++. It was created to be a better EQ. That was pretty much as far as the ambition went.

EQ2 is halfway between EQ and WOW and is moving towards WOW. FFXI has never moved an inch.

As far as WOW being the ultimate Diku...only for now. There is always a next thing coming eventually.

[damijin]

a really fucking terrible forum is a really fucking terrible forum

[Fabricated]

FoH is a really fucking terrible forum. While I can see the appeal of NeoGAF, I can't see the appeal of that shit. I need to think of something clever to word/replace/censor the FoH acronym.

Well, when you have a pocketdev from WoW you tend to get a hojillion people just reading the forum as guests to see what's up.

[Cheddar]

FoH = quaint.

[Xilren's Twin]

FoH is a really fucking terrible forum. While I can see the appeal of NeoGAF, I can't see the appeal of that shit. I need to think of something clever to word/replace/censor the FoH acronym.

"Fanboi's Overblown Hyperbole"?
"Flaming Other Hypocrites"?
"Fancy Otaku Hermaphrodites"?

It's like Acrophobia for evil.

Xilren

[WayAbvPar]

Is there enough interest around here for me to try and weasel some beta invites for F13 people? 

I never realized that you had that kind of power.  I continue to underestimate you!

Never underestimate the poooooower of the crazy man.

Put your faith in Cheddar, because I don't think the staff will lift a finger for this game.

I don't know...every time I think about Vanguard, I lift one finger on each of my hands.