PVP Patch Coming Tuesday Dec 5th

[Xanthippe]

More funny.  Blizzard's account manager site is down, so people who want to cancel can't.

I've never seen the Blizzard forums so full of h8.  Starting to look like the Vault/DAOC boards after ToA.

[AcidCat]

The people pissed off by this are apparently getting their fun more from accumulation of "teh shiny" than the gameplay itself.

Whether you happen to agree or not, getting "the shiny" is an intrinsic part of the fun for most folks that play this game.

[Rasix]

If the PvP is a fun activity in and of itself, who cares if you get 30% fewer points?  It's the pvp that's supposed to be fun... not the getting of teh shiny.   

The people pissed off by this are apparently getting their fun more from accumulation of "teh shiny" than the gameplay itself.

Can't it be both though?

I like WoW's PVP for what it is.  Fun, quick, and reasonably balanced.  The problem though is that due to my equipment not being on par with AQ40/Naxx/BWL (for my spec) is that I tend to get the short end of the stick in encounters.  The short end stunning me repeatedly and bashing my head to a gooey pulp.

The only reason I would want this gear is to be better at the PVP and have a more equal shot at a lot of the encounters (well, I like the way some of it looks too, my current gear is fugly). I would like this gear improvement to happen at a reasonable pace for the amount of playtime I'm able to dedicate to the game.  At the old rate I figure I could get about 1k honor per hour and pulled in 7.5k over a 3 day period.  A high warlord weapon is 22.5k honor.  That's 9 days worth of my playtime doing nothing but BGs.  With the 30% decrease in honor it's now closer to 13 days.  We've got a month or so before the expansion hits, when all of this gear becomes nearly invalid overnight.  I was hoping to get a few pieces and see what I'd be like with that extra AP and a decent weapon for my melee build. 

Now I just feel like getting my druid to 60.  This change makes somethat that was at first accessible and attractive for some immediate gear just merely accessible.  I'll be setting my goals lower, perhaps I'll just get a Don Julio's band and some gloves.  Maybe get that one ring from WSG too.  I'll still be doing the BGs but I won't really do them with the intent of getting anything tangible in a reasonable time frame. 

[Valmorian]

  I'll still be doing the BGs but I won't really do them with the intent of getting anything tangible in a reasonable time frame. 

+33% more time is unreasonable?  Really?  If they tripled or quadrupled the amount of time, I could see that being unreasonable, but seriously..

[Rasix]

We're speaking in days, not hours. It's not like this crap was given out with your tokens at the end of the game.

Edit: I wonder how hard people would bitch if they said we're removing a loot spot off <insert raid mob here>.  Hey, 33% less loot, that's not unreasonable now is it?  30% isn't trivial, damnit.

[Paelos]

Nerfing honor is stupid. I'd much rather they up the token quotas on things than increase/decrease honor points. It would actually promote winning instead of what's going to happen now, which will be absolutely nothing but kill farming for points. That's the aspect of bgs I absolutely can't stand.

[Valmorian]

We're speaking in days, not hours. It's not like this crap was given out with your tokens at the end of the game.

Edit: I wonder how hard people would bitch if they said we're removing a loot spot off <insert raid mob here>.  Hey, 33% less loot, that's not unreasonable now is it?  30% isn't trivial, damnit.

Perhaps not TRIVIAL, but certainly not unreasonable, hm?  I mean, if you can afford to spend 10 days getting something, is 13 REALLY that much more?  I mean, sure it's annoying for casual players, but I certainly wouldn't put it into the category of unreasonable.

[Morat20]

From what I can tell, the HWL stuff is good to about 65 or 66, when it starts getting replaced with quest and dungeon blues. That's not a bad investment, especially since you can only carry about 90k honor around anyways. I was looking forward to replacing my weapons with HWL ones (axe and sword, probably -- no real difference, but I can train up two skills -- as well as the gun. SCREW BOWS!) and replacing my shoulders, breastplate, leggings and bracers (I'm missing the GS pieces for those -- and I won't really be making MC raids until after the expansion).

What was happening was premades were steamrolling through PuGs in AB and WSG, or queue jumping to PuGS if they faced another premade and raking in honor. Of course, they were mostly people in high-end gear already who didn't need or even want PvP gear.

So they shafted all the casuals. I think four or five days for a casual to PvP grind out (and that's still five or six hours a day of PvP) a single top-end PvP piece is about right. It feels fast because the current top-end BG gear is better (comparatively) than what the top-end BG gear will be in TBC. Blizzard should have just sucked up and waited. The worst that could happen is a lot of casuals would enter TBC better geared than they would have otherwise -- they'd still rapidly shed their gear for socket stuff anyways.

By the time everyone was hitting the mid-60s, it all would have evened out without any real damage. I suspect the biggest whiners were the catass raiders suddenly upset that their gear wasn't a WTFPWN advantage anymore, with casuals starting to get something that let them survive, and Rank 14s prior to the honor change.

I've got a bit of sympathy for the latter, but not much.

[Nebu]

If the PvP is a fun activity in and of itself, who cares if you get 30% fewer points?  It's the pvp that's supposed to be fun... not the getting of teh shiny.   

The people pissed off by this are apparently getting their fun more from accumulation of "teh shiny" than the gameplay itself.

Can't it be both though?

Of course it can.  I'm just finding it interesting that people would be so up in arms about an activity they'd likely do for the fun anyway. 

[Chenghiz]

I got two pieces of PVP gear that I had been (unsuccessfully) trying to rank up for before. It'll be a while before I get my shiney HWL dagger but I'm happy with the cool-lookin' blue-quality rogue shoulders.

[Xanthippe]

I find it fascinating that Blizzard would rather piss off 80% of the players than 20% of the players.

Especially since it could have been avoided, had they figured this out prior to the patch. 

You can't give something to people and then take it away without pissing people off.

[Morat20]

Of course it can.  I'm just finding it interesting that people would be so up in arms about an activity they'd likely do for the fun anyway. 

There's a real linkage between "fun" and "Gear" in PvP in WoW. It's not fun being steamrolled by premades in Naxx or AQ40 gear when you're in 5-man blues. You're not even playing -- you're just a target.

The honor gain before was about 20 to 30 hours of PvP per piece of HWL gear. That meant you could, with a few weeks of serious work, start being seriously competitive. Plus, with everything else on standby until TBC, it was one of the few worthwhile things to do. I'm kinda wondering if they nerfed honor to cut down on PvP, because their servers were melting....

Plus, the BG stuff was supposed to be fairly easy to get. The Arena was for catasses. Instead, the catasses fucked the casuals by doing what they always do -- blow through content too fast, thus getting the Devs to put in gates. The gates don't stop the catasses, but they're a serious hindrance to the casuals.

[Nebu]

I find it fascinating that Blizzard would rather piss off 80% of the players than 20% of the players.

They seem to have no problem with taking people's money while making them wait in queues to play their game.

[Fabricated]

Am I weird for being happy about this? Even though I could've gotten myself some phatlewtz just as easily as everyone else I was annoyed at the prospect of going into Hellfire Peninsula with 4000 fucking douchebag clones in full GM gear loling and sharding everything until level 65.

[Nebu]

There's a real linkage between "fun" and "Gear" in PvP in WoW. It's not fun being steamrolled by premades in Naxx or AQ40 gear when you're in 5-man blues. You're not even playing -- you're just a target.

I understand completely.  I felt this in MUD's, then UO, then EQ, etc.  It's like the thrill of completing a puzzle.  I just wish that someone would be better able to decouple the whole equipment-timesink from PvP in an mmog.  The DAoC classic servers have done a pretty good job with this.  In 16h of gameplay I was able to get a toon from 1-50 and have them equipped in gear good enough to be competitive.  Yes, there is better stuff out there, but the benefits that it gives are marginal on the classic servers. WoW success always seemed so dependant on gear... it reminded me of the ToA days of DAoC.

[caladein]

Ok, guildmate just made me think all my math is off. Ignore me.

[Morat20]

You know what's really the pisser about the whole thing? The people earning "too much honor" and getting their gear "too fast" already fucking have it now. They earned it over the last week or so. They're already running around in full HWL (or whatever pieces they were missing), and all that's happening now is Blizzard is fucking the casuals who actually take two weeks to earn enough honor and tokens for a piece or (if they're lucky!) two of HWL gear.

Smart thinking there. Implementing diminishing returns, or some sort of honor cap to stop whatever catasses hadn't already managed to get a full set apparently didn't come up in their brainstorming session.

I love solutions that fuck everyone BUT the people that are causing the actual problem.

Caladein: I don't know where the fuck you're PvPing, but 12 hours of PvP got me 10k honor. Or 1/2 to a 1 handed weapon. On AB weekend, without facing too many premades that rolled my ass. I can't think of a single PuG PvPer that can make 45k honor in 8 hours.

If you're premade horde rolling PuGs in AB or WSG, I can see it. But us lame PuG players? I got one AB and one AV in every hour and a half. That'd net me about 1500 honor, tops. A thousand an hour, and that's if my AB wasn't a 5-cap loss to a premade Horde team.

[tazelbain]

So they got their stuff in a week.

7/.7 = 10

So it would have taken them 3 extra days to get it if the revamped numbers were in from the beginning. Either way, they are going to get it way ahead of you because they are catasses and you not.  I would have hoped most people here would have reconciled that by now.

[AcidCat]

So they got their stuff in a week.

7/.7 = 10

So it would have taken them 3 extra days to get it if the revamped numbers were in from the beginning. Either way, they are going to get it way ahead of you because they are catasses and you not.  I would have hoped most people here would have reconciled that by now.

The point is they are punishing the casuals for the way the catasses have abused the system that they set up to be more casual.

[lamaros]

30% slower is fine with me, I thought it was too easy by far at the moment (1k honour an hour at the worst means you get gear very quickly).

I managed to get about 20k honour in the last week, being away on holiday for 3 days and not PvPing every chance I got, so I could see how it needed to be fixed. If I wanted to I could upgrade a piece of gear to t2-t3 quality every two-three days.

The point is they are punishing the casuals for the way the catasses have abused the system that they set up to be more casual.

No. It's directed at the casuals.

People with Epic AB premades are still going to steamroll in the honour. 30% will mean jack shit to them as they will get it almost as fast as they can spend it.

Blizzard was not aiming this change at them. Most of them have T3/T2.5 anyway. It was directed at us, the more casual players.

Oh, and only T3 will last to level 66ish. This Warlord/GM gear will last nowhere near as long.

[AcidCat]

1k honour an hour at the worst means you get gear very quickly).

The 1k/hour figure seems about right, give or take, maybe us puggers are running more like 800/hr. But still at that rate - that's not quick when you're playing maybe 8 hours a week. At that rate I can get a new piece of epic PvP gear roughly once every two weeks. Now it will be closer to three perhaps.

Not the end of the world, but they totally screwed the expectations I had based on the system they gave me, just a week later. It rubs the wrong way.

[tazelbain]

If its so slow, raid for your gear.

[lamaros]

1k honour an hour at the worst means you get gear very quickly).

The 1k/hour figure seems about right, give or take, maybe us puggers are running more like 800/hr. But still at that rate - that's not quick when you're playing maybe 8 hours a week. At that rate I can get a new piece of epic PvP gear roughly once every two weeks. Now it will be closer to three perhaps.

Not the end of the world, but they totally screwed the expectations I had based on the system they gave me, just a week later. It rubs the wrong way.

Get the Blue PvP gear instead then. The difference is not that huge.

I have Hands, Legs, Chest, Feet in Blue.
Shoulders in Epic (Like everyone!)
Going for head Epic now.

Then I'll probably go for the weap.

Then maybe a WSG ring.

Then maybe the chest.

The point is that getting an Epic is meant to take a bit. There has to be some kind of dely in getting items.

Now they made a huge mistake by not calculating the gain speed right at the beginning, so now people expect it to be fucking easy and want to whinge. But really, if they had started it 30% slower would we be seeing any "OMG I can get an Epic in a week or two, this is too slow! I'm cancelling! Slap in the face!"? I doubt it.

[Rasix]

If its so slow, raid for your gear.

HAR HAR. Do you just not get it or do you enjoy being a troll this much?

[AcidCat]

Get the Blue PvP gear instead then. The difference is not that huge.

Yeah I will probably have to scale back my expectations a bit. Not a big deal in the long run, but I don't like being teased into thinking I could get more and then having it pulled farther away.

[Rasix]

But really, if they had started it 30% slower would we be seeing any "OMG I can get an Epic in a week or two, this is too slow! I'm cancelling! Slap in the face!"? I doubt it.

Of course not.  But then again, I'd have tempered my expectations and possibly not have bothered given how economical I have to be with my play time. However, people generally get annoyed with bait and switch tactics.   This should be no surprise that people are pissed off especially when some Blizzard mouth piece tries to tell me that this isn't technically an increase in item honor cost.

This actually might be better for my rogue now.  His gear sucks bad enough that the blues will be welcome.

[SurfD]

More rumors and speculatiuon, Though appearently there is a blue post floating around somewhere that confirms it:

The price of existing HWL / PvP gear may actually go DOWN when the expantion officially goes live.  A lot of the people in my guild are just PvP ing to stock up to the max honour cap, and are going to buy all their stuff AFTER the X-pack goes live.

[lamaros]

More rumors and speculatiuon, Though appearently there is a blue post floating around somewhere that confirms it:

The price of existing HWL / PvP gear may actually go DOWN when the expantion officially goes live.  A lot of the people in my guild are just PvP ing to stock up to the max honour cap, and are going to buy all their stuff AFTER the X-pack goes live.

See earlier in this thread.

That was posted BEFORE this change. And it was/is speculation, not a fact. Really a stupid thing to do on his part.

[Rasix]

More rumors and speculatiuon, Though appearently there is a blue post floating around somewhere that confirms it:

The price of existing HWL / PvP gear may actually go DOWN when the expantion officially goes live.  A lot of the people in my guild are just PvP ing to stock up to the max honour cap, and are going to buy all their stuff AFTER the X-pack goes live.

I thought the blue post said they'd evaluate lowering prices once the expansion is live.  Nothing committal that I'd bank on it happening.   Still, might be the best method.  I could always level my non-PVP characters until they announce the price drop.  Of course, their idea of a price drop might be giving that 30% honor gain back. 

[Threash]

People complaining that something that its going to take them an extra 3 days to get some of the best fucking loot in the game are about as stupid as the former grand marshals complaining people where getting the same rewards in 3 days that they spent months of grueling effort getting.  IT WAS TOO EASY, if you can't see that you just haven't been paying attention.  Theres people in my guild with 2 gm weapons and several pieces of the epic armor already, and we basically lost 2 days of pvp last week.  If you didn't expect a nerf after the you saw the prices on the stuff and played your FIRST bg i don't know what to tell you.

[tazelbain]

Oh, I get it.  They are complaining about a minor nerf after a gigantic buff.  It pushes my buttons.  I will stop.

[lamaros]

BTW:

The best way to get honour, by FAR, as a single casual player:

AV.

They generally last 15-20mins, and you get 300-400 bonous honour. Plus there is a lot of action.

If you get into a bad AV (lasts more than 20mins) get a guildie to queue you for Arena, then leave and rejoin AV (they need to fix this, but untill they do, abuse it). Or if you have no guildies avaliable just /afk and go do Arena for 15mins, you'll save time in the end.

[caladein]

Or if you have no guildies avaliable just /afk and go do Arena for 15mins, you'll save time in the end.

Or just log out for five minutes .

[Merusk]

(they need to fix this, but untill they do, abuse it).

This has been this way since multi-queues were implemented.  It's working as intended.  I deliberatly make sure I'm in another BG queue when one pops, just so I can hop-out without the deserter flag if people are turtling/ taking forever in WSG or AV.  1-Hour + WSGs aren't fun, nor are AV Turtles.

[lamaros]

(they need to fix this, but untill they do, abuse it).

This has been this way since multi-queues were implemented.  It's working as intended.  I deliberatly make sure I'm in another BG queue when one pops, just so I can hop-out without the deserter flag if people are turtling/ taking forever in WSG or AV.  1-Hour + WSGs aren't fun, nor are AV Turtles.

Yes. But you can /afk out of Arenas w/o getting derserter flag, then get straight back in to the BG you want to do.

You cannot do this currently unless you have someone sitting outside to queue.

Also nifty if you want to do AV and are stuck in the middle of nowhere. Get a guildie to queue you. /afk, que yourself for AV. Couldn't do that before because you can't queue groups for AV.