Schilling's Green Monster Games

[Musashi]

I couldn't agree more with the customizable mount stuff. Faster? More slots? Vanity items? How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit? If mounts are not part of combat, they can still be a fun part of game play beyond making the trip from point a to point b faster.

Vanguard did this already.

I think Vanaguard made Curt's whole game already.

[Venkman]

What's wrong with armored players being harder to knock off? It's not like he's talking about WoW PvP + mounted combat and just adding an armor-based buff to the knockOffChance stat or something

Yeah, it's a choice between getting continually stabbed in the cock every time you travel, or not. To use an analogy it's like making your wizard class so mana-hungry they have to sit down after every second fight, and then give them optional trait at level X that makes their mana supply permanently full

Replace "wizard" with "magician" and "optional trait" with "KEI" and you just described a good portion of my EQ1 experience. From seven years ago. Thankfully we're well beyond that now.

It's a catch-up mechanism. (in regards to offline something-gain)

Not really. The people who put in the time to achieve are going to be far ahead no matter how you slice it. Player A plays 6 hours a night and Player B plays 10 hours a week. Even with auto-skill/xp/money, Player A has 60 hours of active play against Player B's 10 plus whatever meager buff the developer decided to apply in the form of skill/xp/money salary.

The only way to enforce parity between powergamers and not is to retread the nonsense like power-hour and whatever time span existed between implementation and someone figuring out 8x8 in UO. Even Eve doesn't close this gap completely because your powergamer is going to train their skills up on the clone with all the implants.

That's what's different from your board games analogy. Those actually do affect the person out in front.

[Hayduke]

I couldn't agree more with the customizable mount stuff. Faster? More slots? Vanity items? How about armor that might preclude you from being knocked off your mount as opposed to instant 'de-mount' when hit? If mounts are not part of combat, they can still be a fun part of game play beyond making the trip from point a to point b faster.

Vanguard did this already.

Well the good news is no one will know it wasn't an original idea.

[Xurtan]

 

[Tarami]

It's a catch-up mechanism. (in regards to offline something-gain)

Not really. The people who put in the time to achieve are going to be far ahead no matter how you slice it. Player A plays 6 hours a night and Player B plays 10 hours a week. Even with auto-skill/xp/money, Player A has 60 hours of active play against Player B's 10 plus whatever meager buff the developer decided to apply in the form of skill/xp/money salary.

The only way to enforce parity between powergamers and not is to retread the nonsense like power-hour and whatever time span existed between implementation and someone figuring out 8x8 in UO. Even Eve doesn't close this gap completely because your powergamer is going to train their skills up on the clone with all the implants.

That's what's different from your board games analogy. Those actually do affect the person out in front.

You're taking me a little bit too literally, I didn't mean to catch-up fully (I don't know of any board games that try this either, it just isn't fun for anyone involved.) Just a help to catch-up, that can appear significant enough for the player to bother "using it up", much like rest XP but on a more fundamental level. Rest XP is just too tiny a help, especially considering the endgame (the endgame's to be or not to be can be discussed another time), when it no longer matters. I'm not arguing that casual players should algorithmically scale to follow the pace of a 10 h/day schedule or anything of the sort, just that it seems terribly backwards to give every advantage to those who already play the most. According to cosmic order and objective fairness and what not, it might seem logical, but I don't think it is makes for fun.

What I'm trying to say is really that in terms of retention, those that play for hours a day already have incentive to keep playing and paying, while those who only log on a couple of times a month will find it increasingly harder to find motivation to log on at all. I don't think it has to be huge things, but giving these players small advantages like faster travel, some flashy PvE buffs and such might drastically improve the perceived quality of those rare sessions the players do manage.

[tmp]

What's wrong with armored players being harder to knock off? It's not like he's talking about WoW PvP + mounted combat and just adding an armor-based buff to the knockOffChance stat or something

Replace "wizard" with "magician" and "optional trait" with "KEI" and you just described a good portion of my EQ1 experience. From seven years ago. Thankfully we're well beyond that now.

Well, when the armour buff works like a class mechanics we're thankfully well beyond already... doesn't that kinda answer your own question?  

[Draegan]

I have a feeling that Curt want's to remake EQ with all the shitty mechanics as features.  He may or may not have smart people around smacking him and telling him it's a bad idea.

[Nebu]

I have a feeling that Curt want's to remake EQ with all the shitty mechanics as features.  He may or may not have smart people around smacking him and telling him it's a bad idea.

I'm willing to give the guy some credit.  We all saw the trainwreck that was Vanguard.

My money is on him making a story-driven WoW clone.  It's a disaster of a different type.

[Tarami]

Considering he's a fan of EQ, WoW and Advanced Squad Leader, I wouldn't place "story" all that far up on his list of priority. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that soft values like story don't take up a lot of space in those games.

[Draegan]

I'd say there will be an attempt of a story with Salvatore with em.  However what scares me is Salvatore's lust for the EQ days as well.

[Nebu]

I'd say there will be an attempt of a story with Salvatore with em. 

This.  You don't hire the services of someone like Salvatore unless you want story to play a major part.  The sad truth is that most gamers could care less about story.  I've said this before, but I'd wager over 80% of MMO gamers never even bother with quest text beyond the directions to complete the quest and the comment on the reward.  Story is wasted on the largest majority of MMO gamers.  They want loot and ding gratz. 

[Venkman]

What I'm trying to say is really that in terms of retention, those that play for hours a day already have incentive to keep playing and paying, while those who only log on a couple of times a month will find it increasingly harder to find motivation to log on at all.

I question this assertion, but don't have solid numbers either way. WoW's retention still appears pretty solid, and yet, what, maybe 25% of the playerbase is Raiding? And I consider even that a pretty high number. WoW's not reporting continued geometric growth anymore, but for how long should an MMO expect to retain players with exactly the same game mechanic and skins of the same content after the 500th hour?

[Aez]

This lead to a simple question : why not make them part of combat?  Seems like a reasonable and not too hard way to differentiate yourself from WoW.

[UnSub]

what does the game gain by having such component that's there just to make the players optionally miserable and force them to spend part of their time on something that's not fun until they grind their way to enable the 'off' switch?

If you look closely, you'll find you've just described a lot of game mechanics within that question. If the game does it right, it gains players who are focused on achieving a goal and so they keep playing. It's easy to mess up and drive players away, but putting a reward just out of reach and saying "Work for it" keeps players engaged.

[Stormwaltz]

The sad truth is that most gamers could care less about story. I've said this before, but I'd wager over 80% of MMO gamers never even bother with quest text beyond the directions to complete the quest and the comment on the reward.

And I've said this before; gamers have a terrible tendency to conflate "story" with "writing." I thought that Portal and BioShock would have done more to combat this fallacy.

Story is what you do. Writing just provides context. I've worked on a bunch of levels in Mass Effect 2, but the one I feel is strongest has the least amount of writing -- one short conversation to explain what's happened, then a bunch of ambient comments and recorded logs to provide context for what you see and do.

An MMO with no story is kill ten rats quests. Which is fine; K10Rs are mac & cheese gaming. Players gravitate to them because they're quick, easy, soloable, and familiar. Based on my limited experience with raids, I've found them among the most story-intensive quests in MMO -- but most people don't want to eat one every night.

[Margalis]

I've said this before, but I'd wager over 80% of MMO gamers never even bother with quest text beyond the directions to complete the quest and the comment on the reward. 

Given that quest text typically exists only as a thinly disguised McGuffin why should anyone care to read it? It's not like most quest text is well-written or at all interesting.

Some fucking goblins raided our village and stole a magic potion. We need to put the fear of god into goblins. Bring me 10 goblin ears!

People don't care about bad story nor should they. And yes, in this day and age using plain text to communicate your story in a game is weak.

[UnSub]

People don't care about bad story nor should they. And yes, in this day and age using plain text to communicate your story in a game is weak.

Yeah, we want cutscenes that we can skip! 

[schild]

An MMO with no story is kill ten rats quests.

An MMO with a story is kill ten rats with more text.

And yes, in this day and age using plain text to communicate your story in a game is weak.

The alternatives are too expensive and as UnSub said, they'd most likely be skipped.

[Fordel]

Just make all the cut scenes amazing!

[Nebu]

Just make all the cut scenes amazing!

Cut scenes piss me off.  I want to play your game.  Not watch a movie of your game.  The story element of gameplay should happen in real time. 

[ahoythematey]

I thought Asheron's Call did a decent job at the time of giving a game a story without forcing it in your face.  Use that method as an example, and then take that crap to 11.  Of course, that means regularly scheduled content updates to your game...

Really, this is just a roundabout way of me saying that you need to occasionally destroy a location loved by players, preferably with glee.

[gehrig38]

Just make all the cut scenes amazing!

Cut scenes piss me off.  I want to play your game.  Not watch a movie of your game.  The story element of gameplay should happen in real time. 

This. The reason I never got past the first 15 minutes of a FF game, it was 90% cut scenes and 10% game play. THere is a right way and wrong way to put them in your game.
Given that story is such a HUGE part of the Copernicus IP, it's the focal point really, we are working with and playing with some incredibly cool and innovative ways to tell story beyond 28 lines of text in a quest dialogue box.

[schild]

Given that story is such a HUGE part of the Copernicus IP, it's the focal point really, we are working with and playing with some incredibly cool and innovative ways to tell story beyond 28 lines of text in a quest dialogue box.

I'll believe ya when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.

Stop saying, more showing. I highly doubt a first-time out MMOG company is coming up with COOL and INNOVATIVE ways to tell a story. Shit, veteran MMOG companies aren't even doing this.

You're making promises that you really can't deliver on, please to be stopping that.

[WindupAtheist]

Veteran MMO companies are full of dipshits. The odds of a newb company coming in out of the blue and pulling something interesting off are greater than the odds of Funcom/Turbine/Mythic/whoever actually ever getting their shit together.

[gehrig38]

Whether you believe it or not isn't really relevant to us working on delivering.

Can't do more than chat about it right now, sorry. Whether you doubt, highly doubt or believe in it, again, isn't really relevant to us getting it done. Veteran MMO companies have never had RA in the fold to help make it happen, nor Todd. They have both brought some pretty cool things to the table, minus ego, to add to a great team of designers. It's happening, our playtests are validating that it is. Sucks we can't show it yet, but when we can, we will. Lord knows if it was up to me to show it, it'd be shown already!

I generally don't make promises with a team that can't deliver (see 2004/2007 Red Sox) and this is no different. If we aren't making something that is, at the end of the day, a difference maker, it will change until it is.

[ahoythematey]

Remember what I've said: Blow cities up.  Lots of cities.  I want to see some serious forum-tears.

[schild]

Whether you doubt, highly doubt or believe in it, again, isn't really relevant to us getting it done. Veteran MMO companies have never had RA in the fold to help make it happen, nor Todd.

Salvatore is overrated and Todd hasn't been relevant outside of fanboys since Spawn. Neither of them have anything to do with innovations in gaming. Not to mention it takes no effort for me to come up with better storytellers and artists than both of them - all gaming industry veterans. I'm not sure you want to be using them as namedropping around people who knows of their work and know a good deal about the gaming industry.

I hazard to guess that your definition of "innovative" differs highly from the definition anyone here would apply to it.

Mostly, I think, is false (or unprovable) promises are something that borders on a little too close to advertising - and you've been doing that for a while. People have said it before, but man, if you want to keep posting here - you gotta stop doing that.

This isn't a personal thing, I - as much as anyone else - want major changes in MMOG gaming. But until I see it, whenever promises are made, well, they tend to come across as the rantings and ravings of madmen.

[gehrig38]

Salvatore is overrated

In your opinion

and Todd hasn't been relevant outside of fanboys since Spawn.

 

Other than a grammy or two sure, but again In your opinion

Neither of them have anything to do with innovations in gaming.

You can't possibly know this, not even remotely, since you've seen nothing they've done since coming here.

 

Not to mention it takes no effort for me to come up with better storytellers and artists than both of them - all gaming industry veterans. I'm not sure you want to be using them as namedropping around people who knows of their work and know a good deal about the gaming industry.

There's no name dropping going on, it's fact. They are who they are, and they are working on Copernicus, there's no name dropping going on. What exactly does 'knows a good deal about the gaming industry" actually mean?

 

I hazard to guess that your definition of "innovative" differs highly from the definition anyone here would apply to it.

Because?

 

Mostly, I think, is false (or unprovable) promises are something that borders on a little too close to advertising - and you've been doing that for a while. People have said it before, but man, if you want to keep posting here - you gotta stop doing that.

This isn't a personal thing, I - as much as anyone else - want major changes in MMOG gaming. But until I see it, whenever promises are made, well, they tend to come across as the rantings and ravings of madmen.

Not sure I've made any promises really, other than the game and IP is going to be awesome.

[Draegan]

 

[schild]

You can't possibly know this, not even remotely, since you've seen nothing they've done since coming here.

Thank you for assuming I knew that they hadn't between the beginning of their careers and now. That's a pretty long history to base my statement on though, whereas yours is based on buttercups and baseballs and the American Dream.

Other than a grammy or two sure, but again In your opinion

I highly recommend you let them come here and defend themselves.

other than the game and IP is going to be awesome.

Great. Now shutup until you can prove it.

[gehrig38]

You can't possibly know this, not even remotely, since you've seen nothing they've done since coming here.

Thank you for assuming I knew that they hadn't between the beginning of their careers and now. That's a pretty long history to base my statement on though, whereas yours is based on buttercups and baseballs and the American Dream.

Other than a grammy or two sure, but again In your opinion

I highly recommend you let them come here and defend themselves.

other than the game and IP is going to be awesome.

Great. Now shutup until you can prove it.

Defend themselves against what?

I could shut up or you could just not come back into this thread until you think it contains content that interests you, that could work.

[schild]

Or you could stop marketing. (You don't even have anything to market!)

The first rule of marketing is to know your audience. This far before release, your audience is the Vault and MMORPG.com, not f13.net.

This is one of those cases where no one, not even yourself, the bearer of zee money, should be talking.

This is me being nice.

[IainC]

Am I really reading that in a thread titled 'Schilling's Green Monster Games' the Schilling who happens to be the owner of Green Monster Games shouldn't be talking?

Wow.

Curt. I think it's cool that you're here and talking about your stuff, however I also agree with Schild that the vague marketeering isn't really what we're here for. It's interesting to hear your thoughts on games design and mostly we understand that there's a lot you can't tell us - so don't. Don't allude to it, don't dangle the Tantalean grapes as it just smacks of hyperbole. No need to reference Copernicus at all if there's nothing you can tell us about it yet.

Regarding the merits of MacFarlane and Salvatore, I'd be interested to see what Salvatore did outside of genre fiction as he seemed to be a decent writer who wrote capable but derivative stories. I'm not sure if that was because that's what he does or whether it's what TSR (as was) asked for. MacFarlane I couldn't read at all. The guy can draw but he needs a much better editor than the ones he ended up with for Spawn.

[Triforcer]

I like Salvatore's stuff.  He's not Shakespeare (what writer today is?) but he is talented at what he does, and I can see him adding value to an MMO (theoretically).  As schild has repeatedly said, I'll wait to see the product when it comes.   

[tmp]

If you look closely, you'll find you've just described a lot of game mechanics within that question. If the game does it right, it gains players who are focused on achieving a goal and so they keep playing. It's easy to mess up and drive players away, but putting a reward just out of reach and saying "Work for it" keeps players engaged.

Oh, certainly this is very widespread in the genre. The thing is --and this is just extrapolation/guess of course-- maybe this approach to mechanics is considerable part of why MMOs tend to suck? I mean, rewarding a player for good performance or something similar with extra fun, that's one thing. But putting player through plain shit for hours or even days and telling them to "work for it" so the shit is eventually removed... that's when you think of it, a mind-boggling stupid way to make a game.