Schilling's Green Monster Games

[gehrig38]

Bigger offense meaning what? More offensive because it was a cool story? Awesome characters?
I'm a Salvatore fan so I'll be defending the work since I love it but I am not sure what the 'offense' was?
And if you are one of those people that think George Lucas allowed R.A. to kill Chewie because he felt like it then you should do some research on the franchise. Nothing happens in the Star Wars universe that the big guy doesn't order or give his stamp on first.

[Venkman]

I think that's fairly common knowledge. But I always felt allowing Chewie to be killed was specifically to jumpstart the New Jedi Order book series that followed Vector Prime (though really was started by Zahn). It wasn't a cheap death by any means (good cause, no other way, etc). But like it shocked Han in the book ("I thought there was a bubble around us all"), it shocked the fans too.

He was still B-team (I imagine some would disagree with that) though, so it was like Anakin II dying later in the series. Some characters are just untouchable and probably always will be (Luke, Han, even Mara, etc). But others could be fodder for future such marketing/PR pushes (Lando, C-3PO, etc).

[gehrig38]

But the irony is that even knowing that Mr Lucas controls the franchise, people think R.A. is a sellout or to blame for Chewie dying.
I just know the guy can write, knows how to create iconic characters people care about and create stories that can get you to the edge of your seat. Good stuff.

[WayAbvPar]

Bigger offense meaning what? More offensive because it was a cool story? Awesome characters?
I'm a Salvatore fan so I'll be defending the work since I love it but I am not sure what the 'offense' was?

The Drizz't stuff in particular was the worst kind of munchkin wet dream crap. It has done more damage to the common view of the D&D worlds than anything I can think of offhand. It reads like it was outlined by a 12 year old with a satchel full of source books and way too much free time.

[turrican]

Turrican!  I used to play you on the Amiga.  I think you're still in the back of the cupboard. 

Yeah - and that's where I would have stayed, but the temptation to make a bad pun was just too great..

[gehrig38]

Do me one quick favor so I can respond to your post. Throw a quick snippet of your published stuff so I can see what you have as comparisons.
If you aren't a fan that's cool. But as someone who's most likely never published anything, ever, your comments about his writings are about as useful as suntan lotion to an eskimo.

[Furiously]

I'm sure you didn't come here to argue that R.A. is a good author or not. It's the internet, this will go nowhere...I think it's noble of you to defend your friend. But one does not have to have written a book to appreciate good literature.

Instead, lets hear about your pitch for the game of the future.

[Rasix]

Do me one quick favor so I can respond to your post. Throw a quick snippet of your published stuff so I can see what you have as comparisons.
If you aren't a fan that's cool. But as someone who's most likely never published anything, ever, your comments about his writings are about as useful as suntan lotion to an eskimo.

I'm not sure that line of reasoning really has any wings. Art critics are rarely artists.  Movie critics probably haven't even put anything up on YouTube.  Yet both can make critical assessment and give their impressions on what they've seen.

Most people here couldn't program "Hello, World" but there seems to be a decent amount of criticism for what has happened and what is happening in the game industry. 

Those that can't do.. "review". 

Edit: I'll give you this; I'm really not sure what people bagging on Salvatore here hope to get for a response.  "OMG, I've seen the light. Now where's that number for Steven Erickson I seem to have misplaced?"?

[gehrig38]

My point was this. You aren't a fan of R.A.'s that fine, say so if you feel like it. But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".
It's stupid and has no foundation, he has no clue what he's talking about.
You want to character assassinate someone that's written as many books as he has, sold over 15 million books in the US alone, been on the NYT and WSJ best seller lists, at least have one ounce of credibility to do it. Otherwise your posts become vapor.
These forums are here, I think, to exchange ideas, hear feedback, give input and whatever. Forums like this one, and this topic, are to discuss, I would think, our point of view, your opinions on our points of view, and at some point in the future our game(s).
At least that's why I come by places like this, every now and then people get into great conversations that something useful can be gleaned from.
When the guy screaming from the bleachers starts getting too loud these places become a lot less informative and end up being less frequented.
Ya, R.A. is a friend, and a good one, but he's also one of the better people in the _world_ at what he does, that's proven. I was a fan long before I was a friend so I'd have posted my response regardless of the friendship.

[WayAbvPar]

Quote from: gehrig38 on Today at 11:55:48 AM
Do me one quick favor so I can respond to your post. Throw a quick snippet of your published stuff so I can see what you have as comparisons.
If you aren't a fan that's cool. But as someone who's most likely never published anything, ever, your comments about his writings are about as useful as suntan lotion to an eskimo.

So because I haven't published (other than a snippet in Lum's book in which I overlooked a typo when I proofed it! Doh), I am not allowed to have an opinion? The same standards must go for all the folks who love him then, right?

I am not a writer. I am a reader. I have read thousands of books, and several hundred in the fantasy genre. I found Mr. Salvatore's books to be among the worst of the genre (along with Rose Estes...yikes). Just as it probably drives his fans crazy to hear criticisms of him, it drives me crazy to hear people praising him. Just thought I would balance things out a bit.

Doesn't mean I won't check out what GMG has to offer if and when something comes around. It certainly means that I am not in the market for any Salvatore books in the near future, however.

Also- I am guessing Eskimos will be begging for suntan lotion inside 100 years if we don't get off our asses and do something about climate change, but that is a whole different argument 


Edit- gehrig38 posted while I was writing- Sometimes the 400 pound guy is right. Maybe you are really hurting and can't pitch effectively that day, but are still trying to help your team. The end results are the same; you get shelled. Doesn't take an MVP to realize when an athlete makes a mistake, just like it doesn't take a writer or professional critic to have an opinion about a writer. I can't get into the guy's head, all I can comment on is the final product, be it a grand slam or an uninspired book series.

[schild]

Look, it's easy. Can he make the story in an MMOG compelling? No one has done it yet. No one.

So, can he?

Good intentions don't a good story make.

Edit: And trust me, I'd like to believe someone can.

[Engels]

Frankly, its high time the MMO industry took advantage of Fantasy writer talent out there. RA Salvatore is a good bet, since desptie WAP's personal dislike of him, he obviously make stories lot of people like.

I for one am delighted that Salvatore is involved, because as Schild states, there's an apalling lack of decent plots or backstories in MMOs these days. WAP may think Salvatore is derivative, but what I think he has a problem with is the fan base, rather than the novels themselves. Remember, Salvatore just wrote them. That they became wildly popular and the basis for all sorts of after market material and further writings by not so talented authors is hardly his doing. Its like calling Tolkein 'uninspired' because we're already so familiar with his world.

Also, I don't blame Curt for going ballistic against the rather acid snipe agains RA Salvatore; from all accounts, Salvatore is a very decent and good natured human being that doesn't deserve to be credited with 'the worst kind of damage to D&D' and to be called a 12 year old.

WAP forgets that he simply wrote the books. His success, if anything, is an indication that millions are out to ruin WAP's D&D experience, another problem altogether.

[WayAbvPar]

In my defense, I thought they were crap when I read them 15-20 years ago. I didn't learn to fully loathe his fans until Ultima Online, where every other goddamned character was Drizz't or Raistlin. I haven't read anything of his since then, so he very well may be capable of crafting something interesting for a game. I am certainly going to check it out when the time comes.

Edit- typo. I love to interchange 'to' and 'the' randomly for no apparent reason.

[Venkman]

Compelling plots get players through a game the first time. But the persistence of MMO requires a lot more content than any single compelling storyline can deliver. It's not writing a story. It's writing way many concurrent stories that can be compelling both in momentary chunks and in aggregate, both at launch and years later, both alone and in large groups.

But the irony is that even knowing that Mr Lucas controls the franchise, people think R.A. is a sellout or to blame for Chewie dying.
I just know the guy can write, knows how to create iconic characters people care about and create stories that can get you to the edge of your seat. Good stuff.

Exactly. I actually like R.A. Salvatore's writing style, but that's partly because I don't have a maniacal fanaticism about whatever Lore he's writing for at the time. I love Star Wars, but given how GL ignores the rules defined by the EU content anyway, fans really should have no choice but to take everything with a grain of salt. Speaking of Chewbacca, one can't help but compare the world of Kashyyyk as defined by the book and then it as defined by the movie. Or the origin of Boba Fett. Or the revisionist history of Anakin, Obi-Wan's master, the rules for Sith, and so on.

It's all good. I prefer a good story over lockstep adherence to some fan's idea of rules.

However, at the same time, not having build something doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to critique it. Otherwise, there'd be no review industry at all, and no MMO community anyway :) People just need to draw the line between honest critique and character assasination. But honestly, I feel the latter generally comes from a Western tendency at hyperbole to make a point. It's never good enough to say "it sucks, and here's why". To get any attention ya almost need to say "they caused the end of the world and only I hold the key to redemption!"

[tazelbain]

A good storyteller in a MMOG would feature the world as the central character since the behavior of the players wouldn't be under their control.

[WayAbvPar]

I don't think a storyteller is needed so much as someone with a distinct, interesting world. Unless your game was less Diku MMOG and more MP RTS and based on character interactions (like diplomacy, regicide, etc). As DQ mentioned, the story is only fresh once, but the world and how a player interacts with it can keep things interesting even after you know the basic plot.

[CmdrSlack]

But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".
It's stupid and has no foundation, he has no clue what he's talking about.

In my defense, it's more like 210 lbs and not hairy.  Also, if I'm in teh bleachers telling you that you suck, it's because the BoSox are playing the Cubs in interleague play.  I also tell right field that they suck, so really, you're just one of the many victims of my drunken bleacher ire.

If your game sucks, I think all of those people paid to review it will say so regardless of whether they've coded a game before.  Maybe your coding will be better than your curveball.   

[Murgos]

A good storyteller in a MMOG would feature the world as the central character since the behavior of the players wouldn't be under their control.

It had better be a world where most people have names that rhyme with penis and killing the same dragon every day for two years is somehow a rational activity if you really want the players to feel like they fit in.

[Soln]

Wow.  This guy's coming out swinging.  Look out everyone.

[CmdrSlack]

Wow.  This guy's coming out swinging.  Look out everyone.

S'ok, everyone knows pitchers can't hit.

[HaemishM]

My point was this. You aren't a fan of R.A.'s that fine, say so if you feel like it. But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".

Welcome to f13.

Fans may be stupid, loudmouthed jackasses much of the time, but that doesn't mean we can't bullshit about what we think amongst ourselves, or throw darts at the objects of our fandom.

[Venkman]

What is the assumption about who gehrig is?

[Margalis]

I have no idea who Drizzt is, and yes this whole line of conversation is stupid.

[WayAbvPar]

I have no idea who Drizzt is, and yes this whole line of conversation is stupid.

You have no idea how lucky you are  :-D :-D

Ok, I am done taking cheap shots.









For now.

[CmdrSlack]

What is the assumption about who gehrig is?

Look at his email addy. 

[Yegolev]

This thread went all funny.  At least now I know who Drizzit and Curt Schilling are.  I'm going to assume there will be elves.

[Meghan]

This thread went all funny.  At least now I know who Drizzit and Curt Schilling are.  I'm going to assume there will be elves.

And sewers and giant rats. No game is complete without sewers and giant rats!

-Meghan

[Merusk]

Jebsus.. if that's the response to a throw-away comment about a munchkin character (he's a title character, they're ALL munchkins)  that's emulated by so many other people with lack of imagination. (Thus the hate for said fans & the character by proxy.)  Then GMG REALLLLLY needs to stay away from any public boards once they've actually got something going.

Or get some thicker skin.


No, really.

[Xilren's Twin]

It's stupid and has no foundation, he has no clue what he's talking about.
You want to character assassinate someone that's written as many books as he has, sold over 15 million books in the US alone, been on the NYT and WSJ best seller lists, at least have one ounce of credibility to do it. Otherwise your posts become vapor.

Firstly welcome to F13.

Secondly, you seem to be making the mistake of equating popularity with objective quality.  It's not uncommon, but if you are going to be in the mmorpg market you'd better understand the difference between designing for a niche and designing for the masses.  In many ways, that exactly what RA does; targets the LCD high fantasy/sci-fi market with his books and obviously he has been a commercial success because of that.  But that is a very different animal than saying just because his book sell well everyone should the quality of his writing is great.  In the opinion of many here (at least), it's just a little too juvenile to enjoy, or we enjoy for what it is.  It's the McDonalds equivalent of fantasy books.

But that's neither here nor there.  What we really care about here is not sports, or books, but games.

So, is your goal to make the next big budget summer blockbuster style game ala WoW, or are you more aiming for the critically acclaimed but smaller market success of a niche title?  :)
Please note, pvp design often become a big determining factor in that....   

I hope you hang around and continue to post about your game and company, but, i would suggest toning down the knee jerk reactions.  Very little is taken seriously and criticism is the order of the day, often wrapped in vitriol.  It our "style" as it were.  Read around and get a feel for the place and a little thicker skin and you'll enjoy it more.  It only hurts the first time...

[Nija]

AOL is the best ISP in the history of the world.

They had like 50 million subscribers!

You can't go wrong with AOL!

The Red Sox are obviously better than the Diamondbacks. How many games have the D-backs played? Psssssssssssh. Wannabes.

[Margalis]

Ha ha, I like the analogy of a fat guy in the stands, even though I don't agree with the logic.

No matter what you do, somebody isn't going to like it. No matter who you are, somebody isn't going to like you. Not worth worrying about. As someone posted earlier, misanthropes dwell here! And curve here is graded to a D. If someone doesn't call your game the worst game ever you are doing ok.

---

As far as GMG goes, there really isn't much to talk about yet. People with fresh perspectives could be interesting. McFarlane has an eye for popular and interesting designs as well as quality - McFarlane toys changed the face of the toy industry and old school action figures look downright prehistoric by comparison.

Until some gameplay details or key team members are announced most of what you will hear is idle speculation and nattering. It seems too early to have much in the way of useful discussion other than 'good luck' at this point.

[Venkman]

What is the assumption about who gehrig is?

Look at his email addy. 

I refuse to believe!

In the opinion of many here (at least), it's just a little too juvenile to enjoy, or we enjoy for what it is.  It's the McDonalds equivalent of fantasy books.

Yes, but it's that same sort of eilitist outlook that resulted in the collective bitchslap Blizzard gave this industry, the sort of point of view that can hinder understanding on why something has struck a cord with the masses, and can result in a condescending view of something that was leading edge and then transitioned into mainstream (indie bands, the iPod, most trends, etc).

Art critique is the vernacular of those doing the critiquing. You may be right about the opinion of many here part, but casting a derogatory reference is exclusionary, the very essence of the closed mind. Not saying YOU have a closed mind. I don't know you that well :) Just saying that's the easy perception for an outsider.

I don't know anything about GMG, and I honestly don't care yet until they've got something to discuss. But I do hate to see categorizations of things driven by a self-indulgent need for some to be "above it all". Screw that noise.

Windows, AOL, WoW. If Apple, Compuserve and SOE had their way, the world would be dominated by small groups of ego-stroked easily pliable pissant fanbois, with the rest of the masses looking upon them with wonder. That's bullshit. This whole conversation wouldn't be possible without companies who took unique things and tossed in the sort of resources needed to have them done right for the masses, both in execution and delivery. We could argue "right" all day long, but that's Betamax vs VHS. In the end, a group that thought the less-successful thing was "better" are probably measuring it with some rule only relevant to them (was the picture on Betamax better? Yes. Was the consumer fine with the more available VHS? Well, considering the earliest adopters were the ones who wanted to pay the least amount for them, yes).

Sorry for the rant, but I gotta play Mass Market Evangelist sometimes. Without them, you don't get the WoWs. And without the WoWs, you don't get the old guard like SOE to change their screw-the-consumer policies.

[Lantyssa]

My point was this. You aren't a fan of R.A.'s that fine, say so if you feel like it. But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".

Welcome to f13.

Fans may be stupid, loudmouthed jackasses much of the time, but that doesn't mean we can't bullshit about what we think amongst ourselves, or throw darts at the objects of our fandom.

Should I have mentioned the necessity for a hardhat and thick skin when visiting in my welcome post?

[stray]

Sorry for the rant, but I gotta play Mass Market Evangelist sometimes. Without them, you don't get the WoWs. And without the WoWs, you don't get the old guard like SOE to change their screw-the-consumer policies.

There are no "WoWs". There is only one WoW. And if that is mass market, then good luck on seeing it again. It's tremendously expensive for anybody to do, and tremendously expensive to have the influential, industry wide effect you think it will. In the end, it's no model to follow except for Blizzard themselves.

[Margalis]

Certainly the "don't put out an unfinished, sucky game" is a model that *can* be followed. Maybe not with as much content or sales, but the general approach is very transferable.

People still aren't getting it. Look at Vanguard, the opinions of it are almost universally the same. "Some good ideas, a lot of bugs and poor execution."