Schilling's Green Monster Games

[Venkman]

I particularly liked the light-puzzler game they put into one of the DDO dungeons. Could never find that picture I took of it. Ya had to turn floor tiles to let a beam of light through from corners to the center. No timer, so not a realy puzzler, but it was an interesting use of the game engine. Plus the other run/jump/traps stuff. I wish that stuff would hit an actual PSW.

I say there needs to be a paradigm shift then.

And so do many. However, players keep coming back for what's already here. Maybe as more MMOs hit consoles they'll start targeting console gamers with experiences they're familiar with but within a persistent world. And maybe that'll come to PCs too. I actually hope it does. I'm not a huge fan of consoles and platforms, but this genre starves for even more ideas imported from other genres.

[HRose]

To me, the challenges for MMO's are really technical.  Really creative people who can come up with novel methods of capturing my attention, while still sticking to current technical methods will always probably be successful.  BUT they're going to be forever in WoW's shadows and thus niche to most analysts and gamers.  They can't innovate really because they're held back by what their architectures can provide.  Those companies which can first get their db architectures right, for a highly scabale, highly reliable environments will have an advantage.  The game designers that want to have personalization (of some kind) could do it, if everything is not dumbed down to common event and wandering monster tables.  Similarly on the graphics side.  Two examples of this come to mind -- first, Blizzard by going away from the trend for photorealism and thus not having to have bulky, slow rendering clients (and most players think graphics lag is actually caused by the provider's network); and Areanet/NCSoft by going away from the open world and fat protocols model to a hub&spoke design and an on demand (push) service for content updates.   

I don't think a lot of game design innovation we want is going to be possible until more providers think first about the performance of what they can deliver versus worrying only about the title's content or unique DIKU spin.  Just my bias.

As more and more groundwork is being outsourced or based on middleware, you really cannot look forward for relevant advancements in technology and design approach.

That's why all games start to look alike when they all share the same render, same DB structure, same tools, same "trees" and so on. It's the "industry". The process of homogenization so that you can produce more quickly.

The more time passes the more all games look alike.

[Azazel]

My point was this. You aren't a fan of R.A.'s that fine, say so if you feel like it. But elaborating on it smacks of the 400 pd hairy guy in the bleachers who goes far north of just yelling you suck at me when I am pitching and starts saying "He's terrible, his curveball is flat, he doesn't work hard enough, etc. etc.".
It's stupid and has no foundation, he has no clue what he's talking about.

As a reply to this bit, I'd say that critique with reasoning or elaboration is much more interesting and valuable in a discussion than simply stating that you like or dislike something. by way of an example "He Sucks" is much less informative or useful than "I think he sucks because of X, Y, and Z".

As for Salvatore himself, I read the first book or two, got partway through the second or third one and that was that. It was interesting to see a little of "ah, so this is where EQ ripped off the Drachnids from" but that was pretty much it for me after awhile. So colour me indifferent.

[Merusk]

And so do many. However, players keep coming back for what's already here. Maybe as more MMOs hit consoles they'll start targeting console gamers with experiences they're familiar with but within a persistent world. And maybe that'll come to PCs too. I actually hope it does. I'm not a huge fan of consoles and platforms, but this genre starves for even more ideas imported from other genres.

The last thing you want as a world advocate is more MMOs on consoles.  That will take things even further down the 'game' line and away from the 'here's the rules now go do-anything within them' line that much faster. 

Console games have a point and an ending.  Even the "open" ones like GTA.  MMOs are rather the antethisis of that and their entire point is a creative way to waste of time.  (Which is why I always get a chuckle at people complaining about timesinks in them.)

[Dundee]

To me, the challenges for MMO's are really technical.  Really creative people who can come up with novel methods of capturing my attention, while still sticking to current technical methods will always probably be successful.  BUT they're going to be forever in WoW's shadows and thus niche to most analysts and gamers.  They can't innovate really because they're held back by what their architectures can provide.  Those companies which can first get their db architectures right, for a highly scabale, highly reliable environments will have an advantage.  The game designers that want to have personalization (of some kind) could do it, if everything is not dumbed down to common event and wandering monster tables.  Similarly on the graphics side.  Two examples of this come to mind -- first, Blizzard by going away from the trend for photorealism and thus not having to have bulky, slow rendering clients (and most players think graphics lag is actually caused by the provider's network); and Areanet/NCSoft by going away from the open world and fat protocols model to a hub&spoke design and an on demand (push) service for content updates.   

I don't think a lot of game design innovation we want is going to be possible until more providers think first about the performance of what they can deliver versus worrying only about the title's content or unique DIKU spin.  Just my bias.

As more and more groundwork is being outsourced or based on middleware, you really cannot look forward for relevant advancements in technology and design approach.

That's why all games start to look alike when they all share the same render, same DB structure, same tools, same "trees" and so on. It's the "industry". The process of homogenization so that you can produce more quickly.

The more time passes the more all games look alike.

I disbelieve.

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

[Venkman]

You guys need to sell your libraries :)

The last thing you want as a world advocate is more MMOs on consoles. 

It's inevitable, held back by the slower pace at which networks have reached the living room than anything else. Next gen consoles will likely coming with wi-fi by default, and thus the last real consumer barrier falls (there's still amply tech and business stuff, but consumer need trumps all).

The upshot is that competition in the console space is way tougher, given how much of the 13+bil industry console games comprise. So MMOs will have to get "better". Both good and bad will come of it, but it'll only take a few successess for the rest of the genre to split itself.

The split, in my opinion, will still be between "Game" and "Virtual Lifestyle". But it'll be the former that goes to consoles, for obvious reasons. The latter may extend there too, but it'll still be more at home on the PC, for tech, interface and age demographic reasons.

(to qualify: not all kids play consoles, not all adults play PCs, not all consoles will have wi-fi, not all Game-esque MMOs will go console, and so on and so forth).

[stray]

There are a lot of (read: enough) crazy FFXI addicts out there on the PS2. Not sure about EQOA's popularity though.

Granted, those aren't worlds, but the general MMO model has worked on a console before.

AoC is coming to the 360 too. That will have guild and town management, a slightly more "world-ish" pvp system than WoW, and the like. If the feature list is to be believed. I think it'll at least be a modest success.


There are quite a few games that aren't traditionally console oriented that have become a hit in the console world. Competitve online FPS's are the big one (complete with clans, tourney's, voice communication, etc), but Sims type of games do well too.

Perhaps other things can work too. Who knows. Consoles are just easy-to-develop for PC's that you play on the couch. Technically, nothing is stopping them from doing anything. And as far as "mindset" goes, the shell has already been broken more than a few times.

Personally, I think an even more ideal mindset/platform for community games like MMO's would be handhelds. It's just that the hardware isn't flexible or powerful enough yet.

[SnakeCharmer]

Will a keyboard and mouse work with a 360?  I don't think there is a game that uses/takes advantage of it, but would be interesting to see if it would recognize a usb keyboard/mouse. 

[Samwise]

You guys need to sell your libraries :)

I dunno, I can't think of too many existing MMOGs whose engine you'd really want to buy.  I doubt too many MMOG teams make reusability a big priority, given that they always seem to be in a huge time crunch to just get the thing running.

I'm very curious to see what ends up happening with the dedicated MMOG middleware that's been coming out over the past few years, though.  Multiverse in particular, which I heard a bit about at AGC -- that's the one where the user has a single client that can play any game running on the Multiverse platform.  The Torque engine's netcode (which seems to scale very nicely, based on the demos I've seen of it) also has a lot of promise.

[Venkman]

I'm particularly interested in Smartfox myself. You won't see Gears of War MMO coming, but graphics are not the be-all either.

Personally, I think an even more ideal mindset/platform for community games like MMO's would be handhelds. It's just that the hardware isn't flexible or powerful enough yet.

I honestly don't care about platforms. "Designing for" any platform is just designing for today, basically designing for the rules that currently exist. Anyone can make an MMO for a console, even if it needed a keyboard and mouse, and even if they'd spend more time wrangling financial freedom from Xbox or the like.

I'm personally driven by a platform-agnostic future. I want Habitat realized. I know, "MMO's a hard" (enough for PC only). But to me, it's really very limited to think of these experiences as only the time one spends at a computer. We know that's not the case. This forum is proof positive of that alone.

I want a PC with a 3D PC and console client, mobile phone integration for trades, crafting and shopping, mobile gaming platform integration for soloable or small-group missions, and everything Station Exchange offers and more.

Meanwhile we've got the biggest companies capable of pulling this off sitting on mountains of cash because they're happy thinking small.

I like these games, so continue to play them, but the amount of evolution we've seen in the last five years pales in comparison to the five prior.

[HRose]

I disbelieve.

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

You can disbelieve, but aside the personal opinion there's the objective truth. All Gamebryo/SpeedTree games look alike and share some shortcomings. The "engine" has still a MAJOR role into what the game is, and if you don't control the engine, then all you do is driven by what you use.

Years ago there was A LOT more variety between games, this because you didn't depend on anything so making the game coincided with making the engines, interfaces and all kinds of gameplay. Consoles are still relatively free from recycled engines and that's why there is more variety.

My point is very simple, you can easily recognize on which engine the game is built upon. I like a lot Doom 3, but it's kind of obvious from where Quake 4 and Prey are coming. The engine IS the game. Those things you list as "trivial" aren't trivial at all and when you build a game you shouldn't leave anything out.

I really do hope that game development doesn't turn into just mod development.

As I said this is the industrialization of the process of creation, where the interest shifts on how much you produce, not what. We have many more titles, but do we have really more choice when all these titles look alike?

[stray]

Will a keyboard and mouse work with a 360?  I don't think there is a game that uses/takes advantage of it, but would be interesting to see if it would recognize a usb keyboard/mouse. 

They work yes, but games have to be programmed for it (same on PS3). You could use it out of the box for typing messages and whatnot though.

Although....

There was some kind of a mod/adaptor someone was showing around a while back that allowed people to assign keys for various 360 controller functions (i.e. so you could program WASD for shooters). Unlikely that'll ever be a real product though (hell, Microsoft doesn't even allow people to make 3rd party controllers).

[HRose]

I'm personally driven by a platform-agnostic future.

The medium is the message.

[HRose]

Consoles are just easy-to-develop for PC's that you play on the couch. Technically, nothing is stopping them from doing anything.

Problem is that I doubt many of the current mmorpgs could qualify to be ported on a console. The majority of them have still shitty interfaces, controls and engines. I doubt console players would accept those shortcomings that for PC are the norm.

When you bring a game on a console it needs to work without glitches. You have to make sure that it doesn't turn into a slideshow, you have to make sure that it doesn't have major bugs, crashes and that the controls adapt to a gamepad.

Imho, bringing a mmorpg on a console is a MAJOR effort. We'll see how many of those announced like Warhammer and Conan will actually do a good work instead of underestimating the whole thing.

Console game development is a different beast. I'm pretty sure we'll see some bad surprises.

[stray]

/derail  

I honestly don't care about platforms. "Designing for" any platform is just designing for today, basically designing for the rules that currently exist.

Well, you said earlier you're not big on consoles, right? You must have some bias?

I, for one, care about platforms. I don't like the PC/forced upgrading model  (it's especially disgusting when consoles allow developers to wring out equivalant results on what would be piss poor hardware on a PC). It's ridiculous and expensive for people who just want to play games, and coupled with a wide reaching platform like Windows, you never achieve the conveniences of a well integrated machine anyways.

Which brings me to another thing. I like operating systems and interfaces to be specialized. There is no good one size fits all solution really. And no good way to transform a one size fits all solution into a good specialized one. Games need one thing, mobile devices another, office desktop systems another.

Lastly: Running a game from media. Screw that installation crap. Not that I "can't" do it, but it's the principle of the matter to me. A gaming machine should be as ready to rock as a dvd player. Gamers should never be asked to make any more steps than an AV user. Games should always feel like any other kind of entertainment, and never like a computer application (even if that's what they are). Illusions are important. And if there installation involved, it should be transparent.

HROSE: Good point.

[Margalis]

Remember that FFXI was a PS2 game that was ported to the PC, not the reverse. I do agree that starting with a PC and then trying to port can get you into a world of trouble.

As for world vs. game...FFXI is for more worldly than WOW. I don't think console vs. PC makes a real difference there.

[HRose]

Remember that FFXI was a PS2 game that was ported to the PC, not the reverse. I do agree that starting with a PC and then trying to port can get you into a world of trouble.

As for world vs. game...FFXI is for more worldly than WOW. I don't think console vs. PC makes a real difference there.

Do you really believe that Vanguard would be mature for a console port? Or SWG? Or EverQuest 2? Or DAoC?

The only two games that I would consider mature are FFXI and WoW. The first is already a console game, the other would still rather improbable because of memory requirements and controls.

The real point is that outside of special cases PC mmorpgs just wouldn't be mature for a console port. Or you build the game with that goal as a MAIN priority, or it's a dead end.

[Sairon]

I disbelieve.

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

You can disbelieve, but aside the personal opinion there's the objective truth. All Gamebryo/SpeedTree games look alike and share some shortcomings. The "engine" has still a MAJOR role into what the game is, and if you don't control the engine, then all you do is driven by what you use.

Years ago there was A LOT more variety between games, this because you didn't depend on anything so making the game coincided with making the engines, interfaces and all kinds of gameplay. Consoles are still relatively free from recycled engines and that's why there is more variety.

My point is very simple, you can easily recognize on which engine the game is built upon. I like a lot Doom 3, but it's kind of obvious from where Quake 4 and Prey are coming. The engine IS the game. Those things you list as "trivial" aren't trivial at all and when you build a game you shouldn't leave anything out.

I really do hope that game development doesn't turn into just mod development.

As I said this is the industrialization of the process of creation, where the interest shifts on how much you produce, not what. We have many more titles, but do we have really more choice when all these titles look alike?

This isn't true. Look at the products made from for example Renderware, a lot of them don't have much at common at all. Sure, some engines are suited better for some kinds of games due to their aim, but there's nothing that says that an engine has to restrict the creative vision at all.

EDIT: Oh, and as stated before, it will only become more common, there's no doubt about it. http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/gearsofwar/news.html?sid=6165464 just PR or the truth? Anyhow, squaresoft is apparently intrested at least.

[Margalis]

The real point is that outside of special cases PC mmorpgs just wouldn't be mature for a console port. Or you build the game with that goal as a MAIN priority, or it's a dead end.

Didn't I just say that?

I agree, you can' take a PC game and throw it on a console. But you can design a complex MMORPG for a console. The only real difference is going to be the control scheme and UI.

[Murgos]

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

There are hundreds if not thousands of fun, successful games out there that have few or even none of the above.  Get outside the box a little or maybe just kick out a side or something.

The only thing making you remake ALL those things again is you.

[Venkman]

The medium is the message

Go check out Sims 2. Or Mu. Or Project Darkstar (unless Sun changed the name... I'll find out at GDC probably)

MMOs are not a medium. They are an experience delivered upon one but which live beyond them. Players already make MMOs live beyond their clients, and some companies have or are doing big work to push that further. You know what LoTRO is planning. Yes, so the game services are still going to be primarily access by the PC through web browsers and Web 2.0 applets and whatever. But that's just the beginning.

What holds back platform agnostic experiences is not technical at all. It's business. Microsoft controls who can put stuff up on and gain money from XBLA. The mobile phone industry (at least in the U.S.) is controlled by the carriers, not by the original content providers (one of the reasons Apple's iPhone didn't come from Verizon as they originally wanted it to). And good luck getting any sort of clean integration with mobile gaming platforms. Nintendo's done some cool stuff with Tamagotchi and Animal Crossing, but they're like the Apple of gaming, really wanting to control the experience enough that unless they really pushed to make an MMO themselves, they aren't going to push the envelope on agnostic UI. Even Sony couldn't think beyond their vertical divisions to let there be at least some connection between their core EQ brand and the PSP.

I really feel it's the industries that provide these various portals and content experiences that lack the desire to blur the boundaries. And if you want a platform agnostic MMO, you're talking about blurring boundaries. You think Verizon would give up a slot on their deck of even one of their zillion phones for a WoW Auction House portal?

I believe it's coming though. Either the businesses will be convinced or nationalized wi-fi will make it a non-issue :)

Well, you said earlier you're not big on consoles, right? You must have some bias?

A bias for what and how I want to play, sorta. I hate console controllers. I just find them too limiting. But that's just personal preference. Bias aside though, the people making the cash and getting the eyeballs are the consoles. WoW is doing well, but it's way on the extreme side of exception. The only thing that comes close would be XBLA, which as a service has nearly as many users and as much attention from them daily.

So me not personally preferring to play on consoles doesn't mean I don't care about them. Quite the opposite actually. I have no choice really given where the cash has been going for two generations of them.

[Margalis]

Question for a GMG representative:

The only job description I see up on the website is for Senior Gameplay Designer. Is it worth submitting a resume for a programming position at this point or should I wait until jobs are officially posted?

[HRose]

The medium is the message

MMOs are not a medium.

No, the "medium" I was referring to is the platform. A PC with a mouse and keyboard is a medium. Developing a game for a cell phone is an entirely different thing.

The medium is the message just means that you cannot be plaform-agnostic.

And yeah, I think you've read too much Raph Koster recently ;)

[stray]

WoW is doing well, but it's way on the extreme side of exception. The only thing that comes close would be XBLA, which as a service has nearly as many users and as much attention from them daily.

Come again? Not exactly sure what you mean by the "only thing that comes close".

Examples: The last Pokemon game (which came out in Sept) has already sold 5 million copies. And it hasn't even been released in the US and Europe. Older Pokemon games sold in the 20+ million range (worldwide). Super Mario Bros : 40 million. Super Mario World: 20 million. To name a few.

Or are you just talking about services?

I hate console controllers. I just find them too limiting.

How so? I mean, most 3rd person action games on a console offer at least 20 different attacks; multiple types of dodging, jumping, and ways to move around the environment (crawling, climbing, swinging, etc..); a variety of different minion opponents, and a variety of mini bosses and bosses. Among other things.

Sure, it's a bitch to type "ding gratz" with a console controller, but I've yet to find one good reason why anyone but a retard should care about that yet.

[HRose]

How so? I mean, most 3rd person action games on a console offer at least 20 different attacks; multiple types of dodging, jumping, and ways to move around the environment (crawling, climbing, swinging, etc..); a variety of different minion opponents, and a variety of mini bosses and bosses. Among other things.

I swear, forcing designers to plan things around a gamepad can only have a positive effect on our mmorpgs (if it doesn't go FFXI way of nested menus).

[Venkman]

No, the "medium" I was referring to is the platform. A PC with a mouse and keyboard is a medium. Developing a game for a cell phone is an entirely different thing.

The medium is the message just means that you cannot be plaform-agnostic.

I know what you meant, and you're still wrong. Did you check out the games/projects I referenced? There's nothing technical about MMOs that keep them mostly on PCs.

It's merely the User Interface that is the medium (your keyboard and mouse). MMOs are allowed their crappy UIs because the developers figure all the keystrokes are there, the mouse cursor can go anywhere on screen and if the game is popular enough the users will fix the UI anyway. Going to a console requires the UI be made better on their end. Going to a mobile platform requires a completely different UI, but it's still possible (the UI for the EQ cellphone game didn't suck, for example).

The point is you define the part of the MMO experience you want to have at a given time, define the UI for it, and allow that to hook into the core game. UI development is more than just pretty icons. It's about assessing what the user is going to want to do and designing for that. Players on a 20 minute train ride are not going to join 25-man raids. But maybe they would want to follow the chat, check auctions, move items between characters. Look at the features of the Eve mobile phone game offering (and I wonder how Vivendi will handle BSG for XBLA and PC. Integrated? Separate?)

Come again? Not exactly sure what you mean by the "only thing that comes close".

...

Or are you just talking about services?

I was talking about the service. XBLA is sort of a "massive" experience with how well their service is integrated with the various discrete offerings on it. It's not a persistent world, but it otherwise shares a lot of the same business-related cause and effects.

I hate console controllers. I just find them too limiting.

How so?

Too limiting or me in that I have to learn wierd non-intuitive (to me) combo actions in order to do one thing. Meanwhile I can just hit a key on my keyboard and bang, done. But that's only if the game is also offered on the PC. If it's console-only, I find most modern games are pretty good about easing even old school farts like me into the UI.

I do think they could work well for MMOs, if combat was changed to be more action-based (like CRPG stuff) and voicechat takes off.

[WayAbvPar]

Gamepads are sent from the depths of hell to make PC users weep. Every single port I have ever played as suffered from being originally tied to a gamepad.

[gehrig38]

To the question about submitting programming resumes earlier, please do. We are at our quota for art, design, staffing and executive positions for where we are. Our core engineering team is in place as well but we'll always take an engineers resume with industry experience. I think any company accepts those resumes at pretty much any point in their lifetime.

[Lantyssa]

Timely considering the thread and talk of resumes.

[Azazel]

If only Woody was actually funny....

[Dundee]

That said, I think it's ridiculous we have to implement avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over.

But for some reason, we do!

There are hundreds if not thousands of fun, successful games out there that have few or even none of the above.  Get outside the box a little or maybe just kick out a side or something.

The only thing making you remake ALL those things again is you.

Oh, fine, when we want those things, inserted somewhere.

[Murgos]

Just saying that Diku++ isn't necessarily the answer.

[Margalis]

I will agree that engine re-use is not a concern. I'd rather see devs spend more time on unique features and less time on re-implementing basic crap.

Even with the same engine you can have a different interface design and different art direction. "That tree looks like a tree in another game" doesn't bother me all that much.

[Venkman]

Just saying that Diku++ isn't necessarily the answer.

But I think the point was that this is all standard UI stuff: avatar, clothing slots, equip item, inventory, paperdoll, walk, run, swim, ride, jump, terrain, skybox, day, night, lights, interior, etc. over and over and over. Outside of clothing slots and paperdoll, all of these exist in MMORPG, RPG and FPS games. And as you know, all of this requires either getting or creating a development platform. Heck, even getting one doesn't come with everything you need.

I do find it funny that simple things like run/walk need to be coded anew per game. Interesting to see how each dev team thinks running happens ;)

I'm a fan of licensing engines for some things, but that can sometimes tie a developer's hands, disallowing them from digging deep enough if they didn't work out (or didn't want to pay for) a broader license.

There's no win-win. I do agree though that Diku++ is not the be-all anymore. It's been done to death. But it's easy to understand and fund so I expect numerous more of them.

[Murgos]

Eh?  The discussion was that higher use of 3rd party tools for game creation implies that more and more games will look alike.  Dundee said he didn't agree with that but that some portions of the games would probably benefit from more reuse and probably a few dedicated companies developing those things (I think that's what he meant anyway).

I was simply restating that 'I' don't think that any of those things are neccissary for a good game.

I think Dundee got it which is why he wants to put "When you want those things." in his original post somewhere.

At this point I'm thinking 'reusable skybox tools' is just another name for shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.  In essence, and in an abstract way, I am agreeing with the original premise, all these games are already too much alike, just the thinking that you must have a skybox, paper doll and etc... is a hedge forcing our progress down a certain path.

Damn you Carmack!