Forum Drama: KT capable Horde Guild eats the ban stick.

[Furiously]

Oh you've won the game at level 20.

[SurfD]

I'd just like to make the point that it's 5 hours for Trash.  Not bosses, which don't come back, but Trash.  So you can't really stretch that out over a weeklong period.

Ouchie fuck.

NO thank you.

Not sure I understand where you are coming from on that.  Its not like EVERYTHING between Skeram and C'Thun is trash.  Like I said, my guild could easily clear to and kill Twin Emps in under 3 hours.  You could easily stop there for the day, come back the next day and do the C'thun trash and Cthun / Ouro and finish the place.

Really, the only suckish timesink in the instance is the C'thun trash, which takes nearly as much time to kill as it does to clear the first half of the instance.  If they removed every 3rd pull or something, it would go a LONG way to making AQ a much faster, less irritating instance to finish.  And thats, i guess, half the problem.  Everything up to Twin Emps is a decent Time: Reward balance.  Its just the painfull clear to C'thun that sucks the life out of the end of the zone (I guess you could count Ouro in there also, but then, I know guilds who can down C'thun who cant killl Ouro OR Viscidous, so meh).

[tkinnun0]

... Blizzard is not the sole owner of all aspects of WoW.

Yes, yes they are.  They do want the players to be happy (mostly for the money, but there is undoubtedly alot of pride involved in making a game that is at the top of the heap in it's category).  They realize that player community is a part (maybe a big part, maybe) of the game, and they don't want to screw with that.

But don't be confused, Blizzard is the sole owner in all aspects of WoW.  The client lists.  The brand.  The intellectual property.  The code.  EVERYTHING.

Legally, Blizzard owns all technical aspects of WoW, but do they own the human aspect? And isn't just that human aspect the reason why people choose MMORPGs over single-player games?

Look, if one subscribes to the "it's their game" excuse, then why would one get their panties in a bunch over how other people play Blizzard's game? If and when they get banned and whether they are allowed to adversely affect other people's gameplay is all part of Blizzard's game, so it should matter as little as a nerf to one's favourite class.

If you care then it's your game as well, even if the lawyers disagree.

[lamaros]

The truly hilarious bit is seeing them all signing up on another server, en masse, having paid up all over again to continue their pathetic addictions.

20$AU for a wow box here. With a free month.

20.44$ for a months subscription.

Buying a new copy is not costing them anymore I'd wager.

[lamaros]

What I simply can't wrap my head around are comments like "They basically finished the game AND..."

Game finished - next game (until new content or expansion). Trying shit to overcome boredom is the ultimate stupidity. You basically pay them to twiddle your thumbs.

Err... how many people don't set themselves limits to find way of enjoying the same content over again?

It's like saying "why level a new character, the content is all the same regardless... just quit".

Not that I'm saying cheating is justified, but just because you're bored with playing a game a certain way doesn't mean you can't get more fun from the game by playing a different way and overcoming that boredom.

[Xanthippe]

I provided them with some content today in Stonetalon.  Tomorrow Hillsbrad?

[caladein]

... Blizzard is not the sole owner of all aspects of WoW.

Yes, yes they are.  They do want the players to be happy (mostly for the money, but there is undoubtedly alot of pride involved in making a game that is at the top of the heap in it's category).  They realize that player community is a part (maybe a big part, maybe) of the game, and they don't want to screw with that.

But don't be confused, Blizzard is the sole owner in all aspects of WoW.  The client lists.  The brand.  The intellectual property.  The code.  EVERYTHING.

Legally, Blizzard owns all technical aspects of WoW, but do they own the human aspect? And isn't just that human aspect the reason why people choose MMORPGs over single-player games?

Look, if one subscribes to the "it's their game" excuse, then why would one get their panties in a bunch over how other people play Blizzard's game? If and when they get banned and whether they are allowed to adversely affect other people's gameplay is all part of Blizzard's game, so it should matter as little as a nerf to one's favourite class.

If you care then it's your game as well, even if the lawyers disagree.

...

No, you pay your fee to play around in their little fiefdom, as long as you don't pee on the trees or punch grandma in the face, they don't have a problem with anything you do. My cutting to the front of the line at Six Flags, thus altering everyone else's experience there, does not suddenly make me part owner/operator of Riddler's f'ing Revenge. For the analogy to be perfectly fair though, you need to replace the annoying bicycle seat with a dildo sheathed in sandpaper.

In game terms, my using cheat codes to slice through swaths of baddies in an RPG is completely different. I own the game (or at least the license is a completely different model), I don't own WoW. They could turn my character into goat and all I can do is terminate the agreement and stop paying them $15 to be a damn goat.

The lawyers are fucking right, Blizzard owns WoW and your soul. Every single bit of both, and you agree to it every single time you log-in.

[Paelos]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

There it is, read it. In fact, KNOW it before you get into these kind of conversations because it basically explains how they own you in the face.

[UnSub]

but the only reason they did it was to make people talk in the first place.

You know, when you put it like that, they really are inspirational MMOG heroes who deserve our praise.

Also, they're pretty damn awesome players at anything I've seen them play, so I have no doubt that they'll legitly decimate the Burning Crusade content, and perhaps pull stunts similar to this one when they're ready to actually leave the game.

You've spent a long time telling how these people CAN'T leave the game, how they have nothing else in their lives, so account suicide seems pretty low on their agenda.

But I look forward to a thread on that banning as well, along with further justification as what they did and why they did it.

[Tebonas]

Not that I'm saying cheating is justified, but just because you're bored with playing a game a certain way doesn't mean you can't get more fun from the game by playing a different way and overcoming that boredom.

If you are not bored then anymore and it is within the rules of the game, why not. They didn't do anything different though, the final fight beyond the skipped content was exactly the same as it ever was, just as boring as the last 100 times, and their only thrill was to see the loot table of that particular kill. Thats just sad beyond words, and yes I know that includes most raid guilds, with the added strain of having to waste 5 hours to clear the trash.

I don't get why other raid guilds that have perfected all content carry on, either. All I hear from my old guild is "Boring, we disenchant most of the loot, but you gotta do something until TBC comes out". Really, you do? Why?

[tkinnun0]

The lawyers are fucking right, Blizzard owns WoW and your soul. Every single bit of both, and you agree to it every single time you log-in.

So why would you get pissy when players cheat/break/change the rules? It's Blizzard's game and they are allowing the cheating or at least allowing themselves to remain ignorant to it, and that's their EULA-given right.

[Ironwood]

omg.

[Jayce]

The lawyers are fucking right, Blizzard owns WoW and your soul. Every single bit of both, and you agree to it every single time you log-in.

So why would you get pissy when players cheat/break/change the rules? It's Blizzard's game and they are allowing the cheating or at least allowing themselves to remain ignorant to it, and that's their EULA-given right.

I don't think anyone here is getting pissy about that.  It's about people getting pissy when they get b& and trying to justify the behavior with "we're bored" "Blizzard's design sucks" "we wanted to make a splash".  Whatever.  If you are so uncreative about what to do with your short span on this mortal coil that cheating in an online game is all you can think of,  and you get away with it, you're stupid, but enjoy it.  If you cheat and get banned, stfu and carry on with life.

[Furiously]

The lawyers are fucking right, Blizzard owns WoW and your soul. Every single bit of both, and you agree to it every single time you log-in.

So why would you get pissy when players cheat/break/change the rules? It's Blizzard's game and they are allowing the cheating or at least allowing themselves to remain ignorant to it, and that's their EULA-given right.

No - it isn't - you have no rights under the EULA. Troll.

[Typhon]

I largely believe that you are either trolling, or you have decided that you like your friends, and that it's "just a game", so what's the big deal... but something is bothering you, so you decide to stick up for them a bit.  If either of those points are the truth, my (or anyone else) trying to debate with you is largely a waste of time and you are just here to troll or make yourself feel better.

If you are really here to hear and give arguments I'll play along (it's a slow news day, afterall)...

Legally, Blizzard owns all technical aspects of WoW, but do they own the human aspect? And isn't just that human aspect the reason why people choose MMORPGs over single-player games?

Look, if one subscribes to the "it's their game" excuse, then why would one get their panties in a bunch over how other people play Blizzard's game? If and when they get banned and whether they are allowed to adversely affect other people's gameplay is all part of Blizzard's game, so it should matter as little as a nerf to one's favourite class.

If you care then it's your game as well, even if the lawyers disagree.

These arguments are extremely sloppy, and somewhat contradictory.

Game Ownership and Game Community
Blizzard owns this MMO game.  MMO games are created to allow people to play with eachother, which many players find "fun".  Ideally this playing together create a "community", which MMO game creators have noticed help retain customers during those periods of time where a segment of the client base (players) have exhausted all the content.  They also noticed in other games (some of which were created by Blizzard) when cheaters become rampant, it fucks with that player community in ways that eventually contribute to the games demise (or reduced popularity).  So they started this game with a firm promise that they would be firm/strict with cheaters.

Game Communities
Participating in an MMO game community does not give you any ownership of that community, you are simply a participating member.
Participating positively in the community can have a positive impact on the community.  Blizzard does things to try to foster and encourage community members to positively participate in the community (e.g. the comic contest)
Participating negatively in the community can have a negative impact on the community, and Blizzard (who want a large, positive community) should and will do things to limit a community members ability to negatively impact the community through channels that Blizzard controls.
Blizzard doesn't own the community.  Blizzard doesn't own the players.  Blizzard doesn't own the players souls.
Playing Blizzards game doesn't free the player from responsibility for his/her own actions.

Caring about the Game
Caring about an MMO game does not give you any ownership.
Participating in an MMO game does not give you any ownership of the game.  Paying your fees gives you the right to access and play the game according to the terms stated in the EULA.  The player may end this relationship at any time, per the terms of the EULA.
If you care about the game it seems counterproductive to partake in actions that have been shown to cause damage to similar MMO games.  Acitons such as cheating.
Players that try to fuck up a game by cheating "after they won" are very similar to a petulant child that breaks a toy after he is done having fun with it just so other children can't play with it.  Again, and odd/disfunctional way of showing you care.

[Dren]

I don't own the park my kids play in, but sure as hell care if somebody is pissing in the sand.

We need to start a common sense forum.  Preferrably on a different board.  One I'm not a part of.

[Furiously]

What is with the world today and everyone having a sense of entitlement?

[Ironwood]

No idea, but it's really getting on my tits.

[Xanthippe]

No idea, but it's really getting on my tits.

You're doing it wrong.  That's supposed to be your wife's job.

[tkinnun0]

So why would you get pissy when players cheat/break/change the rules? It's Blizzard's game and [the people at Blizzard] are allowing the cheating or at least allowing themselves to remain ignorant to it, and that's [Blizzard's] EULA-given right.

No - it isn't - you have no rights under the EULA. Troll.

There, that convey the the gist more clearly?

[Furiously]

So why would you get pissy when players cheat/break/change the rules? It's Blizzard's game and [the people at Blizzard] are allowing the cheating or at least allowing themselves to remain ignorant to it, and that's [Blizzard's] EULA-given right.

No - it isn't - you have no rights under the EULA. Troll.

There, that convey the the gist more clearly?

Not really - they all got the banstick. I don't see where that is allowing it...

[Ironwood]

No idea, but it's really getting on my tits.

You're doing it wrong.  That's supposed to be your wife's job.

Chance'd be a fine thing.

/howerd

[tkinnun0]

Game Ownership and Game Community
Game Communities
Caring about the Game

I pretty much agree with all of that. My argument is that "it's their game" is a weak excuse, because the game is not just a serverfarm somewhere and a 3D engine on your harddrive. It's the serverfarm combined with the 3D engine combined with the community. And like you said, Blizzard doesn't own the community.

[caladein]

Game Ownership and Game Community
Game Communities
Caring about the Game

I pretty much agree with all of that. My argument is that "it's their game" is a weak excuse, because the game is not just a serverfarm somewhere and a 3D engine on your harddrive. It's the serverfarm combined with the 3D engine combined with the community. And like you said, Blizzard doesn't own the community.

But being a participant in a community doesn't make you owner of anything but your own participation.

The logical leap you're making is that participation entitles you to something. It doesn't. In legal EULA-speak or in some weird social contract you think you have with Blizzard, it's the same thing, you don't control anything.

[Xanthippe]

Just to stick up for those who are friends of this guild - they're taking their thrashing with good humor and do seem like fun people.  Ok, so they're fun people who cheated. 

I hope they don't cheat and get banned this time around, because I'm amusing myself with them (providing content!) every day.  A group of 5 around 23 took my 60 hunter (sans pet but still) down to half health while I tried to kite them into mobs before I killed them.  My server cries for more world pvp, and these guys will likely provide it, if they stick around long enough.

My Hillsbrad mage (lvl 28 - every alliance should have a Hillsbrad mage in the mid/late-20s) is looking forward to action this weekend.  Some of the best fun I've had has been on that mage.  I don't think I'll ever level her up, in fact.

[Megrim]

See... i think it would be much easier for them to justify it, if they were to simply say "We've played this game enough, we really cbf grinding this instance all the way though, so we'll just cheat and get to the good stuff." No grandstanding, no public statements. At least this way, they are cheating, but it's really because the game is crap.

Oh course, this leaves open the question as to why they insist on continuing to play it...

[Rhonstet]

And like you said, Blizzard doesn't own the community.

If a player leaves the community, the community still exists.
If _every_ player but the admins leave the community, the community still exists.
If Blizzard shuts down the game, the community ceases to exist.

If that is not ownership, I do not know what is.

[tkinnun0]

If a player leaves the community, the community still exists.
If _every_ player but the admins leave the community, the community still exists.
If Blizzard shuts down the game, the community ceases to exist.

If that is not ownership, I do not know what is.

You've never been part of a guild that has migrated to another game?

[SurfD]

Your gang leaves my town, you are no longer part of my community.

[lamaros]

If a player leaves the community, the community still exists.
If _every_ player but the admins leave the community, the community still exists.
If Blizzard shuts down the game, the community ceases to exist.

If that is not ownership, I do not know what is.

You've never been part of a guild that has migrated to another game?

A guild is not a community.

Without WoW there is no WoW community.

You are a simple lad?

[tazelbain]

A guild is not a community.

Then WoW doesn't have a community either.

Your gang leaves my town, you are no longer part of my community.

It's not really the same community either. Wow doesn't own its playbase.

[tkinnun0]

A guild is not a community.

Okay...

[lamaros]

A guild is not a community.

Then WoW doesn't have a community either.

Your gang leaves my town, you are no longer part of my community.

It's not really the same community either. Wow doesn't own its playbase.

Let me rephrase.

A specific guild playing WoW is not the WoW community.

[schild]

This thread went from slightly interesting to trash.

Is there really any fucking confusion over what is and isn't a community? Seriously?

[sinij]

it only takes 5 hours of effort

ONLY?! WoW people are broken.