ASCN vs BOB

[Morat20]

Does any of it have any effect on F13?  Where are you based?  Nowehere near the fightiness?  Last thing I remember was you getting charged, like a million-billion ISK per month per member by your alliance (which put po' me off in my poverty).

We told them to screw off when they came up with the 500m isk bill. Most folks are off in some lowsec area, a few others are missioning, and I'm quietly working on skills and plinking omber rocks in my Fortress of Solitude.

So, really, it doesn't affect F13 much at all, except indirectly through market forces. Wars mean demand for our stuff. :)

I want a Fortress of Solitude. I have to make do with some annoying pharmacutical station in high-sec space.

[Yegolev]

LV/-V- booting KOS and then wardeccing them,

*snicker*  I guess I could have predicted this since KOS doesn't seem to be composed of retards.

EDIT: Hopefully it means the prices for nitrogen isotopes will go up.  Five more days until I'm flying a Mackinaw.

[Raging Turtle]

Check the map, RaGoon is doing pretty damn well against the coalition.   

[MahrinSkel]

The main effect of the situation with Xelas has been that FIX has gotten very beligerant towards ASCN.  See, in spite of ASCN treating all of the various alliance and corps under the umbrella of BOB-claimed space with equal measures of contempt, there are three levels to them:

1) Pure care-bear "renter" corps that do not fight.

2) Renter corps/alliances that contribute to local security

3) Independant alliances that exchange police services for residence

Xelas, FIX, and MC are the only ones in that third category, in ascending order of PvP capability (FIX can field a lot more ships than MC, but MC has a much higher average level of SP and PvP experience).  Xelas has always been less militant in orientation, and they've had a low-grade war going with Celestial Apocalypse for months, which is straining their ability to sustain operations.  Even so, Celes was no real threat to Xelas on their own.

ASCN attacking a Xelas outpost looks like a victory against BOB to those not aware of the circumstances, but in fact means almost nothing to BOB's ability to wage war.  But the fact this came with no announcement of hostilities being opened and following endless "BOB lapdogs" and "BOB slaves" rhetoric has FIX very pissed off.  We've been sitting out the BOB/ASCN war (or the Great Southern Clusterfuck, as we call it), but we're making it very clear now that if ASCN thinks opening a *third* front in the war is a good idea, FIX is a much different animal than Xelas.  We've been rebuilding for the last 4 months, our hangars are stocked, we've got a substantial reserve of POS's and fittings, and a "critical mass" of dreads sufficient to take down a battle-POS.  All of this was put together with a very different target in mind, and we were already a little annoyed that their e-peen contest with BOB forced us to put that plan on hold.

Our forces aren't nearly the quality of BOB's, but we can give better than we get against the majority of 0.0 alliances.  And we've definitely acquired the Samurai mentality, having been beaten to the point that destroys most alliances several times in our history, the prospect of yet another round of it doesn't scare us, we are the "already dead".

What ASCN keeps doing, by treating all renters/vassal states as if they were already hostile, is steadily decreasing their numeric advantage.  There are already a lot of Period Basis/Delve renters that are actively fighting on BOB's side because ASCN treated them as enemies.  Now they're adding the Fountain groups to that as well, and if they don't watch it they'll get FIX and and maybe ESA from Querious as well.  1600 BOB were beating them alone, add 1000 FIX, 1500 Xelas, and a few hundred more from various BOB renters, and suddenly they don't even have a numerical advantage anymore.

Damn, this is so much fun compared to any other game on the market right now, it isn't even close.

--Dave

[Yegolev]

Damn, this is so much fun compared to any other game on the market right now, it isn't even close.

--Dave

Truth.  And thanks for the post, very entertaining.

[Raging Turtle]

A lot of well reasoned things.

All the alliances that live in BoB space are, well, living in BoB Space and should be expected to be treated as such.  You don't seriously think BoB's roving squards aren't attacking ASCN's non-combat corps? 

I don't understand how getting that Xelas outpost was anything but a great move by ASCN.  Huge morale boost, a black eye for BoB (I can't believe people are arguing that it doesn't matter because it's not an official BoB outpost - They took territory in BoB space. It doesn't say Xelas territory on the map), and a perfect way to make BoB split it's forces. 

Complaining about insulting comments from ASCN?  Come on.  BoB is unmatched when it comes to bratty forum warriors.

That said, I'm sure ASCN is smart enough to realize that antagonizing FIX at this point would not help them at all.  I just don't get why FIX is complaining about a rather smart move by ASCN.

And how do you figure BoB is winning?  Kill Ratios are fairly meaningless in war between two huge powers.  The way I see it, ASCN is the one who's actually taken territory (though I'm sure not permanently)

Just my thoughts as a outsider.  One that is rooting for ASCN, admittedly. 

[Vedi]

Kill ratios matter because it seems wars in Eve are often determined by attrition. Individuals and corps stop fighting when their wallets run out of isk. ASCN is probably very rich, but who knowns if their individual members are?

[Raging Turtle]

Whoops, BoB took a station in ASCN space. 

[MahrinSkel]

All the alliances that live in BoB space are, well, living in BoB Space and should be expected to be treated as such.  You don't seriously think BoB's roving squards aren't attacking ASCN's non-combat corps? 

I don't understand how getting that Xelas outpost was anything but a great move by ASCN.  Huge morale boost, a black eye for BoB (I can't believe people are arguing that it doesn't matter because it's not an official BoB outpost - They took territory in BoB space. It doesn't say Xelas territory on the map), and a perfect way to make BoB split it's forces. 

Complaining about insulting comments from ASCN?  Come on.  BoB is unmatched when it comes to bratty forum warriors.

That said, I'm sure ASCN is smart enough to realize that antagonizing FIX at this point would not help them at all.  I just don't get why FIX is complaining about a rather smart move by ASCN.

And how do you figure BoB is winning?  Kill Ratios are fairly meaningless in war between two huge powers.  The way I see it, ASCN is the one who's actually taken territory (though I'm sure not permanently)

Just my thoughts as a outsider.  One that is rooting for ASCN, admittedly. 

It's only a victory for ASCN if they manage to keep it, it's another embarassment if they don't.  And trust me, kill ratios are *everything* in a protracted alliance struggle, as opposed to a blitz attack, having not been resolved in the first couple of weeks, this will come down to who runs out of materiel first (and ASCN is definitely showing all the signs of cracking there).  BOB is coming up short on renter income, but the backbone of their economy has always been the incredible number of T2 BPO's they have (they were the first alliance to actively subsidize and encourage their pilot's Research Mission farming, back over two years ago before everybody and their brother was in the T2 lottery).  That's independant of the territory, and ASCN can't touch it.

Why does FIX care?  Because the same logic that led them to attack Xelas makes FIX an equally "valid" target.  There are also other signs of preparations by ASCN for an attack on Querious.

And why is it anything other than a victory for ASCN?  Because at a stroke, they have doubled the number of combatants against them, as well as divided their forces (who were already barely managing to make up with numbers what they lacked in quality).  And they would triple it if they came to Querious (there's a renter alliance founded by an ex-FIX corp in Q that would probably not sit it out if they were actively attacking).

Don't count on ASCN being too smart to attack FIX.  They've already done things that would have had us in this war, if BOB hadn't asked us to stay out.  Frankly, I'm not sure the ASCN leadership is all that bright at strategy and diplomacy, compared to their abilities at internal management.

--Dave

[Simond]

BoB's T2 advantage is going to have its back broken in Kali, though, through a combination of the invention stuff and also the indirect nerfs T2 is getting. It'll be interesting to see what happens then. :)

Anyway, I've changed my mind on this - I want BoB to win and ASCN to sign up as a BoB vassal...just to see what the reactions of D2 et al. would be to BoB backed up with ASCN's manufacturing muscle. 

[Fordel]

BoB doesn't need ASCN's manufacturing muscle, BoB has it's own.

Odds are, the only thing keeping BoB from just burning everything to the ground currently are the games mechanics themselves. I eagerly await the day the stations in 0.0 are not just conquerable, but destroyable. Watching all but a handfull of alliances get sent back to the 'stone age' would be entertaining.

[Simond]

Yeah, but being able to build titans in six weeks instead of three months would be fun. ;)

I'd say that once all of Kali (1+2) goes live, there's going to be some major changes in 0.0 space anyway - at least, if CCP manage to figure out how to kill the things they want gone (POS wars, blob vs blob, instas, etc).

[Raging Turtle]

I'm quite curious as to what's going to happen in the new regions opening up.  I can certainly see Goons making a move for it, but who else?  0.0 is already pretty damn empty as it is. 

Anyone know if the new regions are coming with Kali 1 or 2?

[Fordel]

Yeah, but being able to build titans in six weeks instead of three months would be fun. ;)

I'm not sure, but I think even if you had all the materials handy at once, a Titan would still take 3 months. That is how long its Craft Bar takes to complete.

[MahrinSkel]

New regions come with Kali 1.  Most of the links to it from 0.0 are in either D2 or Red Alliance space, which should make things interesting.  The current war between RA and LV is probably about RA staking out control and pushing back the perimeter.  They want to get in there and find the phat money exploits before anyone else even knows about them, so they can replace the revenue stream they lost when CCP found out about and nerfed the 8/10 respawns.

--Dave

[Morat20]

New regions come with Kali 1.  Most of the links to it from 0.0 are in either D2 or Red Alliance space, which should make things interesting.  The current war between RA and LV is probably about RA staking out control and pushing back the perimeter.  They want to get in there and find the phat money exploits before anyone else even knows about them, so they can replace the revenue stream they lost when CCP found out about and nerfed the 8/10 respawns.

--Dave

When does the exploration changes happen? I was under the impression that things would be changing so that you first had to scan to locate belts, and then move there to mine (and also hidden deadspaces, etc) -- in order to cut down on gold-farmers, and spread out the mining game so it isn't a bunch of people popping the new spawns into pre-anchored cans.

Also, has there been anything more hinted at in terms of handling instas? I remember  Dev discussing how bookmarks were killing them with people making tons of instas per system.

[Strazos]

To derail for a moment...I've always thought there was something game-breakingly "wrong" with instas. Granted, I used them too, but I always felt a little dirty doing it, but only until I happened upon a group camping the gate i jumped onto.

[Endie]

What mechanism are they going to come up with to replace instas?  Presumably they're not just going to say "everyone not in a covert/blockade runner/similar is now going to get ganked a lot more: suck it up"?

[Strazos]

I don't know, and I don't get paid to think about stuff like "answers" or "solutions."   

It does seem that CCP is not real huge on instas either.

[Comstar]

Easy. You jump where you want without waiting 15km to get there.  This won't change combat because people who fight use insta's anyway.

[Simond]

CCP have (again) said that they want to kill instas, but they're not being rash about it. They dislike instas for both the gameplay reasons, and also because they're causing the EVE database server(s) to go into meltdown on a pretty regular basis.

My guess is reducing the 'warp to' distance significantly (but not to zero*) combined with a "You cannot bookmark within X km of a gate/station/etc" code change and a wipe of all bookmarks that break that rule (laz-e-boy version: Wipe of all bookmarks)

*+50% shield/armour hp is going to make gate ganks slightly more survivable anyway - the trick will be finding a sweet spot between making gate camps impossible to survive (from a defending PoV) and impossible to do (from the camping PoV).

Edit: Apparently, the NPC 'rats' in the new regions are going to be...rogue drones, therefore no named modules, lots of minerals (and, apparently, lots of parts for rigs). That's going to be an interesting local economy.

[Morat20]

What mechanism are they going to come up with to replace instas?  Presumably they're not just going to say "everyone not in a covert/blockade runner/similar is now going to get ganked a lot more: suck it up"?

One idea tossed out was to give a trainable skill that increased jump accuracy. Fully trained, you might end up warping in a km or 2 off the gate -- rather than 15. There was a running argument about how close to the gate/bookmark/whatever you should land with the max possible skills, implants, etc. I believe they were also considering changing it so that 'random distance from the gate' for untrained dropped you somewhere in a 15 to 20km sphere around the bookmark/gate/beacon/whatever -- instead of a straightline Xkm short of target thing.

In that case, instas are useless -- bookmarking the exact location places you as close to it as possible (on average) on each warp, no matter where you come from. Train up the skills, and you might drop within 2k of the bookmark each time.

I don't see that as impossible, although I remember there was some drawbacks to it.

[Tragny]

If I could stab people in the face over the internet, the 'Oh, let's nerf something, then tack on a month's worth of skill training to what you need to even pretend that you're on semi-equal footing" types would be first. It kind of ties back in to what was being said over at the RMT thread. And it applies much more heavily in Eve where the consentualness of PvP is ... debatable. That's just my take on things.

[Morat20]

If I could stab people in the face over the internet, the 'Oh, let's nerf something, then tack on a month's worth of skill training to what you need to even pretend that you're on semi-equal footing" types would be first. It kind of ties back in to what was being said over at the RMT thread. And it applies much more heavily in Eve where the consentualness of PvP is ... debatable. That's just my take on things.

SOMETHING will be done about bookmarks. They're stored server-side for reasons CCP isn't going to budge on, and it's killing their DB's when people load into the system because people who use instas tend to have a hell of a lot per system.

A skill system isn't actually that bad -- if nothing else, training up in the skill means you're safer when jumping into new systems (rather than requiring instas you bought from someone else or an escort) and safer on autopilot. Yeah, until you train up the skill you're not as safe as you were -- but on the whole, it makes it harder for ganks and safer to travel.

I didn't whine like a little bitch when they nerfed drones -- I just trained DI and got on with my life. And I'm looking forward to using sentries.

And for the record -- PvP in EVE isn't supposed to be 'consentual'. It is, in fact, generally the exact damn opposite. Instas were a reaction to gate-camping -- it's gone on for so long because the CCP Devs aren't fond of gate-camping either. Whatever replaces it will probably result in a better overall situation for travellers, and a crappier one for gate campers.

Even with instas you can get snagged at the gate. And if you don't have instas for a system, you're fucked even if you're just trying to travel through. I suspect that between the shield and armor changes and whatever they use to replace instas (skills to allow jump targetting and more random arrival at a gate/location/bookmark) that gate-camping will be harder and travel safer. Training a fucking skill -- which you do all the time anyways -- for that isn't so much of a price, is it?

[Fordel]

The problem is the skill becomes "required". Not having the skill at all would suck so badly that it isn't even a consideration. The learning skills have the same problem currently. They were put in, in a atempt to allow younger pilots to catchup somewhat with the vets in SkillPoints. In practice they do the exact opposite and require every new player have atleast X rank in each learning skill, or fall even further behind the curve. In a competitive game, that already heavily favors the vets in terms of power and advantage, adding in more mandatory skills that just increase the time for a new pilot to become viable is a bad idea.

You already spend your first month or two training up learning and the basic piloting skills before you start going into your specilization. Adding another potential few weeks/months of skills is just going to make the game even more harsh on the new pilots. The game is already significantly harsh on the fresh meat as is, no need to add in another 'SP Tax'.

[ajax34i]

Actually, before you guys get too mad at the skill being required, it is ONE of the solutions they're considering.  Another that they've mentioned is everyone being able to warp in at 0 KM manually, with the autopilot defaulting to 15 KM.  So, basically free instas for everyone, provided you take the time to click.

Whatever they do, I don't see a solution working properly unless they also address gate camping with a massive blob, in some way.

[Morat20]

The problem is the skill becomes "required". Not having the skill at all would suck so badly that it isn't even a consideration. The learning skills have the same problem currently. They were put in, in a atempt to allow younger pilots to catchup somewhat with the vets in SkillPoints. In practice they do the exact opposite and require every new player have atleast X rank in each learning skill, or fall even further behind the curve. In a competitive game, that already heavily favors the vets in terms of power and advantage, adding in more mandatory skills that just increase the time for a new pilot to become viable is a bad idea.

You already spend your first month or two training up learning and the basic piloting skills before you start going into your specilization. Adding another potential few weeks/months of skills is just going to make the game even more harsh on the new pilots. The game is already significantly harsh on the fresh meat as is, no need to add in another 'SP Tax'.

Oh good lord. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? "Oh noes! I can't travel to low-sec space without my 'harder to gank at the gate skillz'!". Well, how the hell did you manage to get to low-sec space to mine, trade or move around in the first place?

Did you buy instas? Which meant you had to grind out some cash (or buy it) to pay for it. Did you just go there, suffer the occasional attack, and make a horde of instas for every system?

Both of those are fucking work. Work for the cash to buy them, or work to make dozens of damn boo marks in every system so you have an insta network. Fuck that, I'd rather just train a skill.

And you don't need fucking instas to be a viable pilot. If you want to be a viable combat pilot right out of the damn gate, you're going to train frig skills and play tackler for friends -- you're travelling in a group and don't need the goddamn instas -- or a skill that replaced them. If you're mining in fucking gank-land, you better have fucking friends escorting you as well. If you're trading, well --- how do you plan to survive long enough to make all those damn instas in the first place? Going to train up some combat skills? Do it in a series of disposable shuttles?

Fuck, you waste more time making -- or getting --  instas than training some skill would cost you. It's a nice generic skill that's handy in any damn ship you ever fly, in any system you ever go to, to any station you ever dock at. And you'd turn it down because you'd rather rely on lag-causing instas that have to be painstakingly made for every goddamn possible route through every goddamn system you want to use them in?

Skills in EVE are an offline affair. You're always training one skill or another, and it's ALWAYS a trade off. This doesn't change a damn thing. The only people that are going to need it are people who travel solo in low-sec space a lot. Those people -- generally well advanced folks, as the newbies tend to either fly disposable or in groups -- are going to be able to train them damn quick and go about their business with less damn lag.

It's not going to make the game "more harsh on new pilots". Low-sec space -- which is where instas come in goddamn necessary -- are already harsh on new pilots. This gives them an alternative to "Dying a zillion fucking times putting together instas for one damn system" or "Spending a shitton of ISK I don't have, because I'm a fucking newb so I had to buy, to get instas so I can travel to a goddamn low-sec system". I think if you ask the actual newbs on that one, they'd probably prefer the skill.

Ajax: Either works for me, although I prefer the skill -- can you imagine how mind-numbingly atrocious long flights would be with manual clicks? Ugh. As for gate-camping blobs -- I suspect that'll be addressed too. The CCP folks don't seem to like that either.

[Kamen]

They'll go with the manual selection of warp to zero eventually because they have to.

With instas, everyone who can afford it already has a "warp to zero" option.  Any change to the mechanics of the game that forces people to land anywhere other than on the gate increases both their travel time and risk.  An increase to travel time and risk will result in even less people in low sec and 0.0.

Instas are indeed a problem, but 80-90% of the players hugging high sec is a bigger problem IMO.  Replacing instas with something less accurate will make that problem worse.

Sometimes I find CCP amusing.  They don't even realize that what they were saying for the longest time was "Please spread out into low sec and 0.0  Quit hugging high sec.  Ohhh, BTW, we are going to nerf instas which of course will make travel take longer and more dangerous."   

[Fordel]

Fuck, you waste more time making -- or getting --  instas than training some skill would cost you. It's a nice generic skill that's handy in any damn ship you ever fly, in any system you ever go to, to any station you ever dock at. And you'd turn it down because you'd rather rely on lag-causing instas that have to be painstakingly made for every goddamn possible route through every goddamn system you want to use them in?

Where did I say I thought the current Insta system was great?


What I'm saying, is if you put in a skill that is SO good, that *everyone* will take it, no matter if they are high sec or low sec, miner or pirate, solo corp or mega alliance... why is it even a skill to train and not just base functionality? You've just added another week/month (no idea on what CCP would be thinking of in terms of train time/prereqs on such a skill) of training to *everyone's* character, to what end? To have everyone equal out with the same functionality insta's provided? At that point, you should just have ships warping to the gates as default.

I know I'd much rather be training up my specialization skills (in my case, drones mostly :p) then having to put it all on delay so I can reclaim my lost insta functionality.

[Reg]

I think Fordel has a point. Adding yet another compulsory skill and time sink that everybody absolutely must have in order to play competitively is a bad idea and the learning skills are a good example of what happens when you add one. It's not particularly fun to be forced to take two months away from training useful skills just to get them. Oh, and Morat - not everyone only logs in once a month to switch skills. Try to calm down.

[Simond]

How it could work (IMO, of course):
The randomised warp-in of whatever distance works best for balance.
A 'cheap' (in training time terms) skill called something like "Navigational Accuracy" which would reduce the warp-in distance to a few km (2-4km or so) but still in a randomised area around the location. This is your "Everyone in low-sec needs this" skil and as such is designed to be as painless to train as possible.
A much more expensive (again, in training time terms) called 'Pinpoint Navigation' which further reduces the warp-in distance to 0-2km. This is your "Pirates/Big Corps/People in dangerous areas of low-sec need this" skill.
No bookmarking allowed within 25km of jump gates or stations.

[Sparky]

The problem is the skill becomes "required". Not having the skill at all would suck so badly that it isn't even a consideration. The learning skills have the same problem currently. They were put in, in a atempt to allow younger pilots to catchup somewhat with the vets in SkillPoints. In practice they do the exact opposite and require every new player have atleast X rank in each learning skill, or fall even further behind the curve. In a competitive game, that already heavily favors the vets in terms of power and advantage, adding in more mandatory skills that just increase the time for a new pilot to become viable is a bad idea.

You already spend your first month or two training up learning and the basic piloting skills before you start going into your specilization. Adding another potential few weeks/months of skills is just going to make the game even more harsh on the new pilots. The game is already significantly harsh on the fresh meat as is, no need to add in another 'SP Tax'.

Totally agreed.  You could mitigate that by giving new characters the skill right off the bat, but then if it's such a no brainer to train why not just let everyone warp to jump range anyway? 

My favoured solution would be a navigation module - probably highslot - that comes with either a combat penalty of some kind or a high CPU requirement.  So haulers/runners would be pretty much uneffected, solo combat pilots could wiegh up the cost/benefit of having instagate ability and gangs would be just dandy with a dedicated instajumper.  That would add a new layer of strategy to travel without fucking people over.  But as of now new characters are being fucked badly - insta copying is hellishly slow and prices are through the roof (if you're lucky enough to know a reliable seller) while established people already have their instas.

"Oh noes! I can't travel to low-sec space without my 'harder to gank at the gate skillz'!".

But a "warp to 0" skill wouldn't just help running hostile gates, pretty much every action in the game would become so much faster.  Mining, hauling, mission running, scouting and trading all involve a lot of moving towards gates or stations too.  If I was a fresh faced newbie I'd train this hypothetical skill to 5 before before tackling advanced learning even.

[ajax34i]

Sometimes I find CCP amusing.  They don't even realize that what they were saying for the longest time was "Please spread out into low sec and 0.0  Quit hugging high sec.  Ohhh, BTW, we are going to nerf instas which of course will make travel take longer and more dangerous."   

My opinion is that they do realize what they're saying, but the majority of the playerbase, and especially the influx of new players that they desperately need, don't agree with their Vision.  They've captured and exhausted the pool of "let's wage perma-PvP war and play Alliance politics" players long ago, and the only people left that may be interested in the game are of the "I want an easy, PvE, WoW-in-space game" variety.

[Teleku]

How the hell is endless catass gate camping Grand PvP and politics?  I think 90% of low sec combat in Eve consist of gate camping.  The problem is they have there "Vision" like EQ, and much like EQ, it involves pounding nails into your dick to play the game.  You can only find so many players who enjoy that before you get normal people who want there damn game to be fun and not punish you for playing.  Instas were one way to get around some of the mind numbingly painfull aspects of playing Eve.  They should take that as a hint and try to take some of that pain away, rather than keep it.

Eve has alot of potential, but ultimatly, I find it falls short on delivering in actual game play experience.  The who politics and empire building is cool, and an aspect I really like and want to see more games impliment, but unfortuanatly I found that what we are doing right now is the funnest part of that.  Talking about it on a message board.  Its a great read, but actually taking part in alot of this is just painful.  Im having more fun reading about this BoB war than I did taking part in any battles in low sec space, heh.

[Strazos]

the only people left that may be interested in the game are of the "I want an easy, PvE, WoW-in-space game" variety.

Let someone else make that game then. There would be no point in practically breaking the current game to make the one you refer to.

And besides, it's already been done. Earth and Beyond, anyone? Granted, it was partially EA's fault for killing the game the way they did, but still. Diku-in-space is no great shakes.