Why all the flak?

[Scadente]

Hey, lurker here :)

As most of you know, WoW gets alot of crap, mainly due to it's addictiveness, casualness and it's popularity.

I haven't played every single MMO out there, but I've had my fair share of experience in MMO's. I feel the general impression is that wow, well, sucks. And being of a compleatly different oppinion; I feel WOW is BY FAR the most polished MMO out there. I know it lacks here and there, but I simply can't get enough. I often feel like wife-at-home waiting for her favorite soap show, just I control how much and when I want to watch it. Self-created drama, the works, stuff to do, friendships to forge, and the best? I can log off whenever I want to.

Well, that's how I feel it, why all the downtalk? Sure it doesn't promote emergent gameplay, but I find myself breaking the game with my friends daily, isn't that emergent gameplay in itself?

Answers? Discussion?

[Viin]

I don't think WoW is bad .. it is fun, really. But for those of us who have been playing MMOs (MUDs back in the day) for awhile, we want something that has a bit more depth. WoW is fun, but I get tired of it after a going through the quests - there's nothing left to do once you reach 50ish except gang bang the same dungeons over and over.

And PvP isn't viable until higher levels and the catasses always have the uber gear.

If I wasn't playing Eve I might still be playing WoW on and off, but every time I *don't* play WoW I feel like I'm falling way behind - I don't like that. With Eve I can take a month or two hiatus (or even a year! which I did) and come back with a fresh outlook and jump right back into the fray.

Personally, I like PvP oriented stuff just because I get bored with pre-generated content after a month or two. WoW's PvP is weak (or was when I stopped playing and I don't want to grind to higher levels now) so it doesn't hold my interest. Same thing happened with CoH - fun for awhile, but the grind and missions got boring after a couple of months (this was before arenas and "light" pvp).

[Xanthippe]

I can't answer as to why WoW sucks, because I enjoy playing.  I started playing muds long ago and have played a few other mmos.  WoW is the one that holds my interest more than any other. 

But WoW is not perfect, and not the best at any of the major components in MMOS, (other than the most important one - it works and it is polished).

The pvp is better in DAOC, imo, but the pve suck is too great a price to pay since ToA went in. 

The combat is better in CoH but the missions and world are far less interesting. 

The crafting system in SWG was better but the rest of the game... we don't want to start going there.

The economic game is (I've heard) better in EVE but I don't want to be a spaceship.  I enjoy the auction house game in WoW, although I do wish there was more of a trading element to it (maybe PotBS will come through on its promises).

After 2 years, I've been very happy.  The changes in the game have come at a slow pace, but the game is not buggy.

I think the reason WoW is so successful is because it pretty much delivers as promised.  Bugs are few and far between, as opposed to the normal state of most mmos.  It's relatively uncomplicated and easy to get into.  There's plenty to do solo, even if you're not a raider (I'm pretty much not).  It's kind of like the McDonald's of the mmo world.  The product may not be the best tasting, freshest ingredients, or most healthy, but the execution and delivery of that product is almost flawless (particularly since the server problems have largely been eliminated).

Even if a person doesn't like WoW, the upside is that Blizzard has raised the expectations of mmo players.

[Tairnyn]

I've learned to dislike WoW after playing for over a year, but I freely admit it's well designed and well implemented game.

The relative popularity of this game has thrust the MMOG genre into the public light, moreso than any game of its kind. There's a spriit of individuality that seems lost when you're part of such a large community. It's a cold antiseptic feeling, and is the same thing that keeps me from going to Wal-Mart when I need groceries. It's that spark that's missing when granny's cookie recipe gets mass-produced and doesn't taste the same even though you used all the same ingredients.

This overwhelming popularity also attracts an inordinate number of new players, many of which are new to the genre entirely. As much as I dislike admitting it, I take my gaming pretty seriously. I spend time pondering my strategies and configurations and find myself frustrated having to interact with those who couldn't care less on a daily basis. The lack of monthly fee on Guild Wars had this same effect on the community and turned me off, as well. I want a game to challenge the mind in a way that attracts those who want to stop and think.

There's another part of me that doesn't want to admit that WoW is a great game because I want something different, something better. Continuing to play for the sake of 'progress' only validates the model WoW has polished and perpetuates the same design for future games. I want to believe that there can be a game that can meet all of my expectations, which simply isn't possible. But a boy can dream, can't he?

All of these reasons are more instinctual than logical, making them difficult to argue. On paper Blizzard has created the one game to rule them all, but it just doesn't feel right in practice. I'm starting to suspect I'm just one of many who can't stay in love with one game for too long. It's the clash of finite quality content and too much time to play.

[stray]

As most of you know, WoW gets alot of crap, mainly due to it's addictiveness, casualness and it's popularity.

Haha.

Maybe you've been reading the Vanguard boards too much -- No one here would criticize WoW for being too addictive, casual, or popular. We are not masochists. Those are good things.

At this particular site, the dislike for WoW is mainly due to a general dislike of EQ-ish/Diku games. Not WoW specifically. Sure, WoW is polished. It does a great job of being the type of a game it's supposed to be -- It's just that that type of game, that subgenre of MMO's, isn't very appealing to some of us. Some of us never found it appealing to begin with, and some don't find it appealing now simply because it's been done a few dozen times already.

Self-created drama, the works, stuff to do, friendships to forge, and the best? I can log off whenever I want to.

You can do that in any MMO. Even shitty ones.

[Merusk]

The folks here that dislike WoW either Dislike MMOs alltogether, and would be happier with single-player/ multiplayer games that DO deliver everything they ask for, but have an ending; or are looking for another UO, without realizing that day isn't going to come for whatever reason. (The financial success of Diku's probably being the biggest reason, though.)

[stray]

Some of that may be true Merusk, but I think you're simplifying it a bit. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't talk about MMO's at all if all I wanted was rich singleplayer and/or small multiplayer experiences. I'm still interested in MMO's because the whole "massive" idea still appeals to me. It goes hand in hand for my love of all things Internet. I can even forgive a lot of flaws in the genre simply because that's the one thing other games can't deliver.

All I want though is for those two worlds to meet. Which will happen eventually. Diku MMO's, relatively speaking, haven't been so successful as to completely solidify their dominance over the genre. Seven million subscriptions in WoW may seem like a lot in this, relatively young, genre's terms. But in the big picture of gaming, it isn't Sims, Mario, Pokemon, Madden, Quake, or hell....even
Warcraft or Diablo. There's still much to do, and many, many, many, many more gamers out there to cater to.

[Flood]

I don't think we flak WoW any more than any other MMO, or any other topic for that matter. 

The board elders summed it up pretty well.  WoW is a great PvE MMO with a nice shallow learning curve and slick implementation.  WoW is also the same EQ/Diku treadmill that gets so incredibly o l d after awhile, with PvP a tacked on afterthought.  I still play semi-frequently but I am oh so very ready to get involved in another MMO, IE - WHO or AoC.

[Fabricated]

I love WoW because it's polished, pretty bug free, has a highly customizable interface, has a style I like in both writing and graphical presentation, and even the highest end catassery is no where NEAR as awful as EQ and its ilk's.

If WoW is McDonalds then most other MMOGs are those local restaurants that have one good dish but everything else they make fucking sucks, so calling WoW McDonald's is doing it a favor.

I would say WoW's polish and general lack of game stopping bugs is my biggest draw since I haven't played another MMOG that hasn't been a bug ridden piece of shit or painful to look at/play. I was all excited to beta  and then it turned out to be painfully boring, ugly, and generally a chore to play. Every bug I noticed had already been pointed out, and I couldn't get any motivation to keep myself grinding on, even for the good of helping squash bugs before release.

[bhodi]

It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now.

[Chenghiz]

It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now.

I think that pretty much sums it up for me, too.

[stray]

I thought you and bhodi really enjoyed it? Both of you are some of the few here who actually raid, have large guilds, and have played longterm. Yet, you make it sound like you're only "kind of" having fun.

[Scadente]

Don't get me wrong, the comment wasn't directed at f13 in particular (which I find refreshingly liberal), but to the general "hardcore"-gamers view. More to the "hardcore"-MMO-Gamer. I know 100% that WoW adds very little new to the genre, but why "hate" the king of a genre you've been playing for... 10+years? Would you say the whole EQ/Diku-genre is dead?

[Flood]

Don't get me wrong, the comment wasn't directed at f13 in particular (which I find refreshingly liberal), but to the general "hardcore"-gamers view. More to the "hardcore"-MMO-Gamer. I know 100% that WoW adds very little new to the genre, but why "hate" the king of a genre you've been playing for... 10+years? Would you say the whole EQ/Diku-genre is dead?

The format isn't dead.  If you look at WoW as the current endform of DiKU then centrainly not.  DiKU > EQ > WoW.  And WoW is an incredibly successful venture.

My "hate" for WoW stems from exactly the fact that I've been playing basically the same game for 10+ years.  I'd love for an MMO with another dynamic to take hold.  The problem with WoW is that it is now so financially viable that it puts a blanket of uncreativity over the MMO industry.  I like WoW, but I don't like the fact that it's actually the almighty dollar that drives how games are created, hence my hatred-of-the-tools for WoW.  I know it's stupid to wish that something in our world might actually be created due to something other than money however.  :-(

[stray]

Don't get me wrong, the comment wasn't directed at f13 in particular (which I find refreshingly liberal), but to the general "hardcore"-gamers view. More to the "hardcore"-MMO-Gamer. I know 100% that WoW adds very little new to the genre, but why "hate" the king of a genre you've been playing for... 10+years? Would you say the whole EQ/Diku-genre is dead?

The "hardcore" (Not "hardcore gamers", mind you. They're not gamers.) would be the insane Vanguard fanboi's I mentioned in my first post. They don't like it simply because they're just that: Insane. And masochistic. Their complaints stem from the fact that they like Diku and achievement based games too much. Not too little. WoW may be Diku and achievement based, but they don't like it because it isn't time consuming and restrictive enough. That it's dumbed down and "too easy" (as if any Diku was "hard" to begin with).

[tazelbain]

[Oban]

[Flood]

Going to have to agree on that also.

[Nija]

I could tell you why WOW sucks but it would take a lot of effort on my part and I'd probably end up explaining it badly.

^sup

[stray]

For who/what? What's this all about?

[squirrel]

I love WoW because it's polished, pretty bug free, has a highly customizable interface, has a style I like in both writing and graphical presentation, and even the highest end catassery is no where NEAR as awful as EQ and its ilk's.

Bam. Nailed it. I don't play WoW anymore - I have a 60 rogue and a 60 Warlock - but I'll probably pick up the XPac. I liked WoW for a lot of reasons - and bear in mind I was a 'hardcore' DAoC/SB player - but primarily I like the fact WoW introduced POLISH to the genre. Now mind the only MMOG i'm currently subscribed to is EVE but I have huge respect for Blizzard for the fact they delivered an accessible, POLISHED, entertaining DIKU. Do I want something new from the MMOG model? Sure fucking do! But if you're going to build a DIKU MMOG then do it right. Which Blizzard mostly did. Moreso that anyone else by far. And that's why I like it. Because it's fun, accessible and polished. Sure it has huge issues - PvP is foremost in my interest - but it's miles beyond what anyone else has delivered to date.

[Strazos]

Why do I dislike WoW? Let me list the ways:

 - I already played the game before. It was called EverQuest.

 - It adds nothing new. It simply cherrypicked a few features from this game and that game.

 - Even with those millions of players, the game feels...lonely for some reason. There's Barely any reason to group with anyone. And when you do group...

 - The community sucks. It sucks hard. I dislike the "general" WoW player so much it hurts. They're stupid...Very Stupid.

 - The game takes no real skill (to me). Zero.

     - Especially the PvP. Warlocks and Mages maybe take a bit...perhaps. But really, PvP comes down to Gear and Levels (and levels = time played). The person playing that Ashkandi-wielding floppy-earred Night Elf could be a slobbering idiot (and he probably is), but 9 times out of 10 I reckon, he'll win any PvP encounter. Simply because he sits around on his ass a lot to get the gear. Not Tough.

 - The talent trees only really give the illusion of diversity, when in reality, there are only 2 or 3 viable builds for each class (usually). And one of them is probably a PvE raid build, so in PvP, you maybe have 2 options. This is compared to a game like Guild Wars or Eve where you have Many more options available to you.

 - Did I mention the playerbase is a bunch of chucklefuck jackass retards?

 - With the success of WoW, a lot of studios are now going to want to cash in on the trend, so expect to see a good number of clones for the next 5 years or so. Thanks Blizzard, gg creativity.

...Yeah, just a short list.

EDIT: To me, people getting all crazy about WoW is like being all crazy over the Honda Civic. Sure, there were econoboxes before the Civic, and even now you have your alternatives. Honda puts together a very tight package with that car...which is great, if that's what you're looking for. But it's still just a Civic. A lot of people here, perhaps, want something more.

[squirrel]

Bah - Drunk posting = bad. Original edited. Move along...

[squirrel]

Stuff

Strazos - I don't disagree with most of your points, particularly the PvP issues. But honestly, you haven't already played this game and it wasn't fucking EQ. I don't have to explain why - you know why. Yes, there's iterative and intentional similarities but as someone who played EQ shortly after launch you can't tell me their the same game just because they're both DIKU MMOG's. That's bullshit and you know it - primarily due to vastly different interpretations and intents re: "the vision".

The other point I think you're way off on is the whole "WoW takes no skill" argument. Um, MMORPG's to date take almost 0 individual skill. Would you argue otherwise? Compared to a multiplayer session of FPS or RTS? The skill in MMORPG's is in the development of group tactics and organization. Admittedly Shadowbane took more skill that way but to generalize that WoW takes no skill is just funny to me. These are not games based on individual player skill. Period.

On the PvP and community comments however I tend to agree with you. The community is undeserving of the label. And yes - WoW's success may influence future development efforts. I agree that's not the direction we were hoping this would go. But fuck, you're going to blame a developer for that? We bought the fucking thing.

[Strazos]

But honestly, you haven't already played this game and it wasn't fucking EQ. I don't have to explain why - you know why.

Grind up, do instances, get led along on a leash on raids for the minuscule chance of some loot, just so you can do more raids (rinse and repeat ad nauseam)? That sound about right? That's similar enough for me for it to be a huge turn-off. Sure, I'll concede that some of WoW's instances are novel the first time. Beyond the 3rd? The game then acts like a sleep-inducer for me.

The other point I think you're way off on is the whole "WoW takes no skill" argument. Um, MMORPG's to date take almost 0 individual skill. Would you argue otherwise? Compared to a multiplayer session of FPS or RTS? The skill in MMORPG's is in the development of group tactics and organization. Admittedly Shadowbane took more skill that way but to generalize that WoW takes no skill is just funny to me. These are not games based on individual player skill. Period.

Eve and GW, I believe, take more skill in PvP, though admittedly a lot of the skill applies to pre-fight loadouts. Perhaps it's just the feeling I get that I don't really have to Try or Think when I PvP in WoW. And group tactics? Like what, "everyone assist on me," "FF the clothies first," "hold the middle," or "OMG ZERG RUSH KEKEKE ^_^" . Hell, you can hardly even use terrain in WoW due to the ease of targetting, hugeass nametags, and practically nonexistant collision detection.

And yes - WoW's success may influence future development efforts. I agree that's not the direction we were hoping this would go. But fuck, you're going to blame a developer for that? We bought the fucking thing.

No, not really. It's the people funding the projects who will be harping on the success of WoW and be clamoring for me-toos of it. "Hey, WoW made money hats. We want money hats too! Hey, you game guys....make us something like WoW! And you better get it out of the door on time, or we'll impale your children on pikes and place them on the highways...as a warning to other game guys, that not getting a game out by the totally arbitrary date we have set is dangerous! Screw the bugs, just patch it next year; I'm balding, so I need my money hat NOW!"

[Remember, this is all my Opinion. The OP asked, and so they recieve.]

[Flood]

For who/what? What's this all about?

The OP with his 4 post count and invitations for us to discuss WoW.  Needs material I think.

[caladein]

I find most MMO communities to be filled to the brim with idiots. I honestly never played MMOs to be "with' the community, I do it to hang out with my guild, magically piss an entire server off (we're 4/4 at the moment), and maybe get my jollies off writing a guide to a class no one cares about. Also, with a community as bad as WoW's, isn't it better that you're not compelled to group with people? At least in comparison to the gaggle of retards in CoH/V and having to put up with them.

I'm kind of on the fence on the skill thing. On one hand, some of my guildmates that are consistently good PvPers in other games are able to still pull some insane stuff off in comparison to other guildmates with the same gear. Personally, I'm almost always a good healer (PvP or PvE), part of that comes with practice, but it also seems that leadership/communication skills and some personal skill come into play.

On the other hand, there are times where I am simply out muscled by gear where, faced with the same situation but without the gear disparity the situation would have been very easy (Rogue with Thunderfury, etc. versus a Rogue with T0-1). When there's a massive gear imbalance, then skill doesn't come into play much. When there's even an inkling of parity, that's where skill shines though. That personal skill if any is multiplied by the much more important communication and teamwork though. For me, the coordination required to be effective isn't as huge as in say, MxO or L2 where I played area healers and had to be extremely touchy on positioning. In WoW it's more: run around, PW:S/Rejuv, main heal, DoT, all while basically watching my raid overlay, running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

On player variety... comparing WoW to EVE is simply unfair. Still, 30 or so main templates (each with varying compatibilities with different gear) is still superior to the few flavors of the month at the Tech 2 level. (I consider the newbie EW platform as pertinent here as a Shadow leveling build, both are not the end goal of a character.)

[squirrel]

Eve and GW, I believe, take more skill in PvP, though admittedly a lot of the skill applies to pre-fight loadouts. Perhaps it's just the feeling I get that I don't really have to Try or Think when I PvP in WoW. And group tactics? Like what, "everyone assist on me," "FF the clothies first," "hold the middle," or "OMG ZERG RUSH KEKEKE ^_^" . Hell, you can hardly even use terrain in WoW due to the ease of targetting, hugeass nametags, and practically nonexistant collision detection.

[Remember, this is all my Opinion. The OP asked, and so they recieve.]

Well - EVE is the only MMOG I currently mantain a sub for and I do agree WoW PvP is shite. However there's not a lot of skill in the actual combat in EVE - it's about being in the right mix of ships with the right equipment for an encounter most of the time. In my experience EVE - while more complex in the setup - is a great example of the fact that skill in these games is about the preperation and organization - not the execution of the fight itself.

That said - EVE is  terrific example of how a cohesive and non-asshat community can enhance the enjoyment of a game. I've had some terrific interactions in EVE, particularly from people who've killed me. Many have spent time afterwards to help me understand where i went wrong and what i could try next time. Even those who just ganked and ran usually had something intelligent and funny to say. WoW's playerbase is appalling.

[Zetor]

It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now.

In the spirit of the wow forums.. qft!! ololololololololol!!11

Ahem. Seriously, I don't think anyone claims that WOW is the best / most innovative mmog evar. But all other games (the ones out right now, and the ones about to release soon) suck, and more importantly, it's fun. Even for us second-class citizen non-raiders.


-- Z.

[Ironwood]

What Flak ?

[Tebonas]

Lack of perspective I guess. Compared to the treatment other MMOGs get, we are positively felating WoW. But how should he know?

[naum]

I've been subscribed to WoW since rollout (though I no longer pay for 2 accounts, just 1 now...). I've never hit > level 50 as I've taken months at a time off, and recently I started again anew with RL friends on a different server and different realm (Alliance instead of Horde). I think I've played every class to level ~40 except paladin and warrior.

I like WoW. It is what is is. It's the premiere Diku-MUD, ala EQ. But EQ was broken and much of the game incomplete (at least that was the state of the game >= 2 years after rollout). Quests broken, spells broken, skills non-functional and never repaired, zoning bugs that were still in evidence 2+ years after, terrible class alterations in attempts to balance gameplay, etc.... WoW is the most polished and bug free (relatively speaking) MMO to date. DAoC came close, but in comparison, was like a can of opened soda that sat in the fridge for a day... ...in contrast to others, WoW offers:

* Lots of quests that actually work

* A game instead of a virtual world

* Cool dungeons and detailed rendering of world NPCs with campy bits to boot. I reckon some arn't enthralled with the Blizzard canon, but I enjoy it, and it's a big enough world that takes some time to see everything. Even so, there are nooks and crannies in zones that you might miss, and they are all artfully done.

* PvP+, though I detest the RvR style. I really want to kill members of my own side and think such alliances and faction +/- should not be hardcoded (at least able to be changed). Still waiting for religious faction v. religious faction (or house v. house) in one of these games ...

* Cool spell/skill effects and the Diablo-esque nifty item bazaar...

* Skills and spells that arn't broken
 
* It runs on my Macs. (though so did Shadowbane and ATITD) In fact, it runs well on a nearly 4 year old powerbook...

About the only criticism I have of Blizzard is the long wait for expansion and the lack of a different PvP+ model than has been given.

[Merusk]

Ah  NOW the thread has started going in the direction I was expecting.

Now then, for those complaining "i've played this game for the last 10 years/ before"; it's a level-based MMO.  I don't see you bitching about the latest RTS, TBS, FPS or platformer.  Evaluate the game for the genre & type it is, not your wishes and dreams. The paring-down that Strazos did to compare WoW to EQ can be done to any game, ever.  "Fuck Monopoly, it's just tossing dice and money-management."

Too often there's people comparing DIKUish MMOs to completly different genres, like Fighting games or platformers.  "Man this is stupid, I can't dodge bullets" "I can't oneshot combo" whatever.  It's a case of you projecting your wants into a different game system.  My personal bitch about RTS's is the units are stupid mindless pieces of crap that need extreme mico-management.  There's no AI and the little fuckers would wander solo or one at a time into large forces if you didn't keep an eye on everything they did.   Is that a flaw in the genre - as some would say for an MMO - or is it just me wanting the game to be about something other than it is, micromanagement.

Not that WoW doesn't have it's own flaws.  Large-group raiding - while something I enjoy and participate in - shouldn't be the only way to get good gear.  That's even more true if you're trying to make PvP your endgame the way Blizzard is, but from the stuff going in with BC it seems like they're learning that.. slowly.

  The dev team also has blinders for certain classes and situations, like endgame-geared-Warriors in PvP vs almost anyone and battleground win/ loss scenarios... or won't address them publicly if they AREN'T really an issue, because they alone have the broad-view data. (Horde pug always wins WSG, Alliance always wins AV.)

Cal addressed the community stuff.  The problem really is the popularity.  I haven't noticed any more assholes than I did in any other MMO.  The biggest difference is the people in WoW are all very self-centered.  Most I've encountered come from single-player backgrounds instead of other MMOs, so they're not used to having to realize that toon isn't a character it's another person who needs that stuff just as much as you do, so don't get so damned greedy w/ the loot.

   MMO vets worked that out years ago, in systems where they'd actually be punished by public censure for being such a shithead.  I'd say that's something that's a "flaw" in WoW but only because it's made the wrong metagame assumptions.  Coding for/ implementing a different looting or itemization system would work to help it.

WoW takes skill - you only have to watch a few dozen new players or do one or two PUGs to realize that.  The difference is it's a level of skill below where most folks on this forum are.  Things that seem mind-bogglingly simple seem to elude the grasp of many wow players. Things like why lightwell or 'improved death' are bad talents for healers and points better used elsewhere.  Why DPS warriors need agility not just str/ stam, or why int is important as a pally. 

As to the future of development.  If folks start making actual money at 'world' games (UO's too old for the $$ guys to care now, and was tossed-aside as soon as EQ hit 200k) then you'll see them be developed.  EvE's done very well for itself, but it's still too small for big money to care.  I'd love to see a few world games, but at the same time I don't because in a "World" each limitation (technological or rule-based) always jars me.

 I know I personally wouldn't be happy with a 'world' until it can hit holodeck-level for customization, changes, etc. (Not necessarily the interface)  Only being able to make 12 kinds of shirts or four house-types makes sense in a 'game' world... not so much in a "world" world.

[Simond]

Pretty much everything I was going to say has already been said, except...
Diversity. While WoW, in the short term probably will stifle innovation I suspect that over a longer timeline it may just foster it.

I mean, unless your Diku-MMOG is going to be better than WoW it will not make WoW's numbers (the same way that it took WoW to finally put a stake through EQ''s heart). A few big failures (*cough*LOTRO/Vanguard/Warhammer*cough*) and game studios might just have to start proposing alternatives to WoW/EQ-Clones, if only because the common viewpoint among publishers would be "That market is saturated, do something else".

[stray]

Too often there's people comparing DIKUish MMOs to completly different genres, like Fighting games or platformers.  "Man this is stupid, I can't dodge bullets" "I can't oneshot combo" whatever.  It's a case of you projecting your wants into a different game system.

I don't desire Diku to be anything other than what it is at least. I desire MMO's to be something other than what they generally have been. There's a difference. I don't wish Diku to implement ideas from platformers or fighting games -- I wish MMO's did. Diku can go on remaining Diku.