Useless Conversation

[Salamok]

People who think driving on vacation is about getting somewhere as quickly as possible, using the biggest highways with as few stops as you can manage? They don't vacation with me twice. I've broken people like that more than once :)

You guys also live in a part of the country where there is such thing as scenery and beauty.  San Diego to San Francisco?  Mostly barren farm land and urban sprawl for 8 hours.  LA to Phoenix\New Mexico?  All barren desert and quite a bit of urban sprawl.  El Paso to San Antonio?  Kill me fucking now, there isn't a damn thing there and you pray the few gas stations along the way are open for business when you need them to be.

Wife once made me do the Austin to Fresno drive, I made her go straight through I think I drove 10 of the 50 hours and made her drive the rest while I slept.  I had this awesome system where I drove 95-100 and when she complained I'd just say "oh good yer awake, it's your turn!", with 2 weeks vacation a year I do not want to spend over half of it "enjoying" that drive.

[Mrbloodworth]

Where is that dam teleporter technologically.

[Minvaren]

Fucking VMware. 

How does it work?   

As I'm getting ready to put this on a server here, what about it should I know in advance...?

[Ingmar]

Fucking VMware. 

Do tell!

[Merusk]

I will expand on this later tonight: fuck plastic H2O supply lines.  After the lunch presentation I just had it's all copper for my supply lines forever.

[rattran]

I have a Keurig, some of the coffee selections are quite tasty. The key seems to be look for 'extra-bold (medium/dark) roast' on the boxes. And don't set it to the largest size, kick it one step down. I'm drinking a cup of Coffee People Donut Shop coffee right now, as I was too lazy to make another full pot in the Bunn downstairs.

[Engels]

Fucking VMware. 

Do tell!

I don't know what bugged Rasix, but getting ArcGIS to work in VMWare Windows 7 install on a mac has been a complete nightmare here.

[ghost]

Getting anything to work on VMWare is a nightmare, excepting the base windows stuff. 

[Sky]

Terraria worked great in Fusion on OSX10.6! 

[Talpidae]

Fucking VMware. 

I like VMWare....

[Rasix]

Fucking VMware.  

Do tell!

Ran into an odd bug yesterday that I spent like 3-4 hours debugging and another 2 this morning before figuring out what the hell was screwing up.  If you manage to crash your ESX server during a cloning operation (that was a fun day), the snapshots taken at the beginning of the cloning hang around.  These snapshots disable VAAI for that VM.  

The server crash was like last week so I couldn't fathom (nor could anyone else) why VAAI wasn't doing anything.  As long as it took to figure this out, it only took a few minutes searching on the internet to verify that this "feature" was working as intended.

Plus vSphere,  part OK / part Satan's left nut.

[Merusk]

Fucking accident on the way home. Goddamnit.

Anyway: Copper Pipes.

Had a presentation today on "Antimicrobial Copper" Thought it was going to be just the usual sales pitch but it was pretty damned informative and surprised me in a lot of ways.  It was all based on research that was conducted in just the last few years, and is EPA certified as a Public Health Claim. They only just got the EPA cert for this 2 years ago, so they've been giving presentations to Arch firms across the country to get us to spec more copper.  Were it just another coating or marketing gimmick lacking any real backing I'd be more leery, but the EPA cert and testing methodology convinced me.  Being that there's a bunch of science geeks here I thought I'd share and see what you all had to say.

Turns out Copper has natural properties that kill bacteria dead.  Surprisingly effectively, no less.  They did tests using MRSA bacteria, Aspergillis, Samonilla, E Coli, Influenza, Staph and Legionairres.  Copper kills them all within 2hours of exposure.  "Big deal" you might say, but the same test on Stainless Steel (Which is what you see most often in Hospitals, right?) had 90% of the introduced bacteria still alive after 4 weeks.   

The EPA testing in hospitals replaced 5 of the most-common MRSA sites with copper or copper-alloy products and saw a reduction of something like 90%. Crazy.

It works only with alloys using greater than 60% copper in them.. but that's about 355 alloys so, hey, great.

But the reason I'm saying I'm keeping copper pipes is that they've been doing studies on copper water vessels in India.  Turns out they help purify the water (since it kills e. coli, etc) so that says to me "Keep your pipes copper."

If you want to read more of the info here's the site of the organization that gave the presentation. http://www.antimicrobialcopper.com/

[Trippy]

Silver has similar properties.

[Paelos]

So my workplace got a Keurig machine for the break room, etc.  Does anyone actually like these things, because the coffee I tried from it tasted like Satan's own beer shits.

No, I hate it. It's piss weak, tastes crappy, and it makes angry noises.

[Merusk]

Silver has similar properties.

They covered that, saying that claim was based on a 40-year-old Japanese study that required a sealed environment (wrapped in plastic) in 95F temps and 90% humidity.  Copper works at room temp and humidity down to 4C with the bulk of its alloys.

Not having access to medical journals I have no idea how valid that claim is or isn't.  I do know that I can talk a client into the ~%15 additional cost form steel to brass/ copper/ bronze/ nickel-silver-copper at high-risk areas like door handles, railings, etc.  There's no way in hell I'm going to manage to talk anyone in to paying for silver door handles.  Properties being there or not, it's useless if it's too expensive for general use. 

[Trippy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_uses_of_silver

[Merusk]

That article seems to say it's only good application is catheters & tracheal tubes where there's still a huge cost difference. It also seems to say it requires a specific ion and should really be electrified to increase it's affect.  Copper requires... being everyday old copper.

I'd be interested in seeing a study done of them side by side. Neither lobby is likely to fund that tho.. maybe we can get a grant for Nebu to do it. 

[Lantyssa]

At a guess, without further research or reading the EPA documents yet, silver's main problems are cost and ease of oxidation.

Both are superior conductors though, so I wonder what role that plays.

[Cyrrex]

Well, hell.  Now I have to go replace all my gold pipes with copper ones. 

[Merusk]

At a guess, without further research or reading the EPA documents yet, silver's main problems are cost and ease of oxidation.

Both are superior conductors though, so I wonder what role that plays.

Oxidation wasn't a factor in copper. Patina'd, Oil-Rubbed, Buffed or brushed so long as it was bare metal instead of lacquer or some other finish coating it was ok.  I'd assume the same is true of silver.

If it had to do with the conductive strength, wouldn't that make gold a likely candidate as well?

Cy: That'll teach you to live in Galtland! 

[Bunk]

Well, hell.  Now I have to go replace all my gold pipes with copper ones. 

Well, less likely they'll get stolen...

[RhyssaFireheart]

Well, hell.  Now I have to go replace all my gold pipes with copper ones. 

Well, less likely they'll get stolen...

Wouldn't count on that.  My brother's work trucks have been broken into a few times because people steal all the copper wiring (he's an electrician) and sell it to recycling places.  Once he had a house he was rehabbing broken into and all the wiring was ripped from the walls and the copper pipes were pulled as well.  I guess it's pretty profitable to to sell off.

[ghost]

No shit.  Copper thieves are stealing everything these days.

[Merusk]

When I was in housing we had a neighborhood that had 3-4 houses stripped of all wiring, pipes and the AC condensers in about a 3 hour period.   I've also seen reports of people who went to turn on their AC this past spring only to find that while they saw the housing, some thief had stripped everything out and left the shell to fool the homeowner.

Copper & scrapmetal theft is a big racket and has been for a few years.  Mainly because scrap yards aren't required to report anyone with anything remotely suspicious.  For example, if someone's turning-in 3-4 manhole covers a day... that should raise some eyebrows.

[Bunk]

No shit.  Copper thieves are stealing everything these days.

That's what I was refering to. Fricken scary, some of the stories of guys trying to dismantle copper pipes from gas lines, or wires from transformers.

[Lantyssa]

Oxidation wasn't a factor in copper. Patina'd, Oil-Rubbed, Buffed or brushed so long as it was bare metal instead of lacquer or some other finish coating it was ok.  I'd assume the same is true of silver.

Silver tarnishes much more readily though.  An alloy might be fine.  I still wouldn't use it as my first choice in all but specialized settings.

If it were only down to conductivity being the reason then yes, gold would be good.  I know it's used as a base for thin films, but I'm not sure how bio-reactive it is, so it may not be as good a choice as copper or silver for those reasons.  Plus its expense.  On the other hand, if it were to prove as good as copper, oxidation and corrosion is even less of an issue.

[K9]

Turns out Copper has natural properties that kill bacteria dead.  Surprisingly effectively, no less.  They did tests using MRSA bacteria, Aspergillis, Samonilla, E Coli, Influenza, Staph and Legionairres.  Copper kills them all within 2hours of exposure.  "Big deal" you might say, but the same test on Stainless Steel (Which is what you see most often in Hospitals, right?) had 90% of the introduced bacteria still alive after 4 weeks.   

I remember hearing about this when they published a paper a year or so back. As I understand it, it's less the fact that it actively kills bacteria, and more to do with the fact that bacteria cannot live as long on copper surfaces as on other materials. Most of the bacteria you list are commensals, not free-living, and cannot grow well outside of the host environment. Nonetheless, they are also serious public health threats, and anything which reduces their lifespan is a good thing.

Also, for the record: Aspergills is a fungus, Influenza is a virus, and MRSA is the general drug-resistant form of Staph (Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus).

[Merusk]

Makes sense, except how is it they would thrive on a surface like stainless steel if they don't grow well outside a host?  One of the tests they did involved infecting a surface with a total of 5mil bacteria at 2h intervals over a 24 hour period.  At the end of the test copper had 0, continually showing a die-off at the 2h mark and SS had 21mil... meaning the bacteria bred while on that surface.

SS was used because it's the most-commonly spec'd "touch" surface by Architects in lab and hospital environs. Tables, hardware, fixtures, etc.

Yeah I knew they were but didn't make an effective distinction there between bacteria and what other things also died on the surface.  I was too worried I was sounding too much like a commercial instead of relating a nifty bit of info I'd learned.

[Chimpy]

Stainless is used more for its non-rusting properties than any "bad shit don't stick to me" ones I think.

Most people hear stainless and think "germs/dirt won't stick to me!" when in reality it is only rust that doesn't stick.

[Yegolev]

Fucking VMware. 

How does it work?   

[ghost]

So they opened a Games Workshop store about half a mile from my house and I made the mistake of going in.   

May god rest my soul after my wife gets ahold of me. 

[Ingmar]

No shit.  Copper thieves are stealing everything these days.

That's what I was refering to. Fricken scary, some of the stories of guys trying to dismantle copper pipes from gas lines, or wires from transformers.

Meth is a hell of a drug.

[K9]

Makes sense, except how is it they would thrive on a surface like stainless steel if they don't grow well outside a host?  One of the tests they did involved infecting a surface with a total of 5mil bacteria at 2h intervals over a 24 hour period.  At the end of the test copper had 0, continually showing a die-off at the 2h mark and SS had 21mil... meaning the bacteria bred while on that surface.

SS was used because it's the most-commonly spec'd "touch" surface by Architects in lab and hospital environs. Tables, hardware, fixtures, etc.

Yeah I knew they were but didn't make an effective distinction there between bacteria and what other things also died on the surface.  I was too worried I was sounding too much like a commercial instead of relating a nifty bit of info I'd learned.

Fair enough; my research is primarily on Staph, so I am a bit sensitive to the distinctions.  

I would have to dig out the paper and see what protocols they used. I would guess that imperfectly sterile surfaces with trace amounts of dust and hair would offer bacteria a space to grow on. I am not refuting the finding by the way, the distinction I would look to make is that these bacteria would die out sooner or later on any non-living surface, so the material is merely expediting that rather than killing them per-se. Nonetheless, cost aside, copper is a pretty awesome substance.

Stainless is used more for its non-rusting properties than any "bad shit don't stick to me" ones I think.

Most people hear stainless and think "germs/dirt won't stick to me!" when in reality it is only rust that doesn't stick.

I imagine cost is a big factor too. I would love to see a shift towards steampunky hospitals full of brass fittings though  

[Merusk]

I'd love to see your thoughts if you do dig it out, K9.  That's a big part of the reason I wanted to share it, to see what some of the science-field folks here had to say.

They've got a lot of articles & clarifications up at the website I linked. It's not just a marketing spot so you might be able to get the actual EPA report as well.
http://www.antimicrobialcopper.com/us/scientific-proof/epa-registration.aspx

[Sand]

So based on the last 10 or so posts, when I go in for surgery next week tell them I want the surgical instruments to be copper, silver and gold.
Gotcha.

Should I throw in platinum for good measure?