Useless Conversation

[Pennilenko]

At the risk of piling on good wishes, I hope it is nothing serious at all and your brother makes a speedy recovery, Morat.

[MisterNoisy]

So, yeah, my brother's getting a CT scan tomorrow. He finally got a chest X-ray, and there's a mass. And if you can see it on an X-ray, it's not a tiny one. There's lots of things that cause that that DON'T start with "c".

I keep telling myself that, at least. On the bright side, family history is on our side. Plus, he spent the years between 12 and 30 getting bronchitis at least twice a year, and generally pneumonia as well. So an infection, a thingy form around an infection new or old (I don't know what they're called, a relative of my wife's had one removed). Lots of stuff.

So I'm hoping he's just got screwed up lungs from years of chest infections. He's been wheezing and full of sinus drainage for three months now, so....I dunno.

I guess I'll find out in a week or so.

Sorry to hear, and hopefully it works out for him - if it helps, we had the exact same scare with my pops some months ago, but it turned out to be a treatable infection instead of something more serious.

[Morat20]

Sorry to hear, and hopefully it works out for him - if it helps, we had the exact same scare with my pops some months ago, but it turned out to be a treatable infection instead of something more serious.

Thanks. We'll find out in the next few weeks.

We're all hoping it's an infection -- it'd fit his other symptoms, the length of time he's been sick, and his medical history. But until they get a good look at it on the CT, at the very least, nobody's gonna relax totally.

[Samwise]

Fingers crossed for your brother, Morat.

On the subject of brothers and infectious masses, I'm soliciting advice on ways to light a fire under a "failure to launch" gen Yer.  College dropout, no discernible aspirations beyond MMO raiding, part-time job that he shows up to about once a week.  This is apparently a very common condition.  Suggested treatment?  Full Nerf suggestions welcomed.

[Abagadro]

Are you paying his freight or just watching from afar?

[Samwise]

After our mother abruptly threw him out on his ear, I agreed to let him live with me for a few weeks so he'd have a chance to find a job and his own place to live.  That was about eight months ago.  

[Abagadro]

I would posit that the only motivator is being cut off and having to fend. Otherwise you are enabling.

[Samwise]

If I throw him out, he'll move in with a worse enabler (one of his parents -- my mother's had a long enough break that she'd probably take him back in, and failing that he'd probably go live with his father; I won't go into that situation too deeply, but it'd eliminate any hope of his ever having a normal happy life).  Prior to moving in with me he didn't even work part-time; I'm making him pay a nominal weekly "rent" that's apparently just enough to motivate him to go to work one or two days a week (when he "forgets" to pay I start throttling his bandwidth until he remembers).  So he's made a little progress and I'd hate to see him backslide, but my patience is starting to erode.  

I'm contemplating just telling him he has to start coughing up market rate rent, and putting it in trust for him until such time as he's a functional adult, but I'm afraid that jacking up my demands too quickly will end up with the same end result as just throwing him out.

[Ironwood]

You've admitted the first step :  You're an enabler and you need to Cut That Shit Out.

Full Rent.  Chores Schedule.  The Works.

Introduce that motherfucker to the real world.


Edited to Add :  Would it help if we all posted 'How's that Parasite Brother?' in 76 point font on your FB page ?  Happy to help ?

[Cyrrex]

Also, how old is he?  I know you said Y'er, but that be 18 or that could be 30.  I think the course of action would be different, potentially.

At the very least, that rent amount shouldn't be "nominal".  It should be enough to hurt, even if it isn't quite up to the market rate.

[Velorath]

I would posit that the only motivator is being cut off and having to fend. Otherwise you are enabling.

Assuming Sam's profile is still accurate and he lives in SF, the Bay Area is a costly place for having to fend for oneself. For people who aren't going off to a University after high school, it's quite common to be living with a parent well into ones' 20's around here, and those are people who are typically working full time and going to school. For someone like Sam's brother who is unskilled and unmotivated it's an absolutely shitty place to try to make a living off of some minimum-wage job if you're paying market-rate rent. If he's hampered by issues that require therapy or medication then he needs to get that taken care of. If he's just lazy and lacks ambition, he's eventually going to need to find a cheaper area to live.

[Paelos]

A list of activities that he needs to do to pull his weight (cooking, mowing, cleaning, dog-walking, etc), no drinking in the house, and throttle the bandwidth on his internet to the percentage of market rate rent he's paying.

I'd need to know an age here to go into more, but in addition to those things if he's over 25 he needs to have regular job interviews for something full time. Once a week at least, and be working on something.

[Morat20]

I wish I could help, but my brother had a similar problem. What got him as far out of that rut was (1) having a kid and (2) finding a career. He got a full-time job when he found out his wife was pregnant, and the job turned out to be something he was not only really good at, but he found personally fulfilling.

For a guy that had a real problem with 'showing up to work' even with a part time job, the fact that he's been doing this one for several years and survived lay-offs on the sheer strength of his competence and the fact that the people he works with consider him indispensable....

Not that he's got it all together. It's like all his ability to be an adult is tied to "his kids" and "his job" (and he can't manage 'his job' enough to go back to college and get the degree he'd need to more than double his pay and teach people to do what he does, despite the fact that he's MUCH smarter than I am. And I managed a Master's, so a BS or BA would be easy enough for him).

I have to show up and MAKE him do things like 'file his taxes'.

[Samwise]

He turns 24 next month, so he's right in the middle there.  Much of his peer group (the ones he plays MMOs with) are in a similar sort of boat where they're living off their parents (although many of them are doing so post-college whereas he just stopped going to classes after a couple of years).  Definitely the type where he's not going to do things like, say, do chores, file taxes, or show up to a therapy appointment unless I take time off work to supervise him.  He's still driving our mother's car around and she told me recently that he racks up parking tickets and she just pays them because it's easier than trying to get him to do it.     I've been thinking that I might need to put some pressure on her to cut THAT shit out because it's probably contributing to his general sense that he can expect other people to bail him out when he drops the ball on basic responsibilities.

Getting independent confirmation that he's not getting his ass kicked hard enough is good, because obviously everyone else in the family thinks I'm being heartless by charging him to live with me.

[Merusk]

If he's just lazy and lacks ambition,

Sam was too nice to say it outright, but this is what, "failure to launch means."  None of the rest of your concerns apply.

My brother suffers from a parallel problem in not wanting to "grow up" and is a bartender and workout instructor in L.A. at the age of 36 now because of it. (with the debt of an art degree and a now unused business and logistics degree on top of that) My youngest sister is the same way, despite having a teenage child. She has ambitions and drive but doesn't want to move beyond being a waitress because of the risk of failure. My mother is the worst enabler ever on both of them and is rewarded be being regarded as a busybody for taking interest and trying to push.

Despite loving them all in the way you can only love family, I am disgusted by them in the same way you can only be disgusted by family. In the end I finally came around to, "they're adults. This is their decision and it doesn't affect me," and not worry about it. Much less stress on me. When mom complains I'm straightforward with my opinion of both situations and tell her she needs to cut them off. It doesn't help but at least MY position is clear.

So, obviously, I recommend the boot.  

However, if you want to play Dad go ahead and make demands of your brother the same you would any other adult living with you.  He is, after all, an individual thinking human being responsible for his own actions. You can't protect him from himself, no matter how much you want to.  So don't, and introduce some reality.

[Pennilenko]

However, if you want to play Dad go ahead and make demands of your brother the same you would any other adult living with you.  He is, after all, an individual thinking human being responsible for his own actions. You can't protect him from himself, no matter how much you want to.  So don't, and introduce some reality.

This is the most sound advice for dealing with a situation like this.

[Maven]

Saving people from their problems doesn't teach them to deal with them. I have been on both sides -- however, I do understand how playing an MMO gives the false sense that you are doing something (and escaping a bad situation). The game will suck him in. Lazy and a lack of ambition may have more to do with depression or him viewing his future as hopeless / uninspiring.

It is not an easy situation to handle, and I have fallen into the trap of bankrolling someone else's lifestyle to the detriment of myself. Don't put yourself through that. I have been the lazy one lacking ambition, and now I'm the guy with a fire under his ass who wants that $75+k / yr job in a respectable field. I would never have gotten there if I hadn't had the shit beaten out of me from my poor life choices.

[Samwise]

This has helped to light a fire under me if nothing else.  Going to start turning some screws.   

[Ironwood]

However, if you want to play Dad go ahead and make demands of your brother the same you would any other adult living with you.  He is, after all, an individual thinking human being responsible for his own actions. You can't protect him from himself, no matter how much you want to.  So don't, and introduce some reality.

This is the most sound advice for dealing with a situation like this.

Yes.  That's why I said it.  YOU HEARTLESS MONSTER.

[HaemishM]

If he's a person capable of being a non-fuckup, he won't learn by being coddled - he'll just stay in his cocoon and keep doing what he's doing. He has to be forced to get out and fuckup to learn if he's a non-fuckup.

[Paelos]

This has helped to light a fire under me if nothing else.  Going to start turning some screws.  

I was in a situation after the market turned and I got my masters trying to find a job in 2008. The market was garbage. My parents paid my rent and expenses for a year until I finally landed a career job. It was extremely helpful in my life.

Here's the thing, if someone is actively trying to better themselves, help them. Demand results, put them on schedules, make sure they are out of the house during the day. The worst pitfall for people to do anything is being in the house during the day doing nothing. It creates a cycle that you'll never get out of. Believe me, I've seen how alluring it can be just hanging around the house, drinking day beers, and shitting around on the computer all day. Even the simplest tasks look daunting because there's always tomorrow. There's nothing in the way.

If nobody shakes your brother out of that thinking, he'll never grow up. He's not trying to get educated, he's not trying to do anything. You're actively making him worse by not demanding better, and you're doing it on your dime and in your house. There's a simple solution. You demand more or he moves. Either way, you've done your part as a brother. You can't force people to change, but you sure as hell can force them to do it on someone else's time.

[Hawkbit]

As someone who took entirely too long to "figure things out" and almost lost my marriage over it, I recommend that you have the conversation sooner rather than later.  He'll likely hate you the same way whether you do this now or in two years.

Put it all in writing, make him a lease/contract.  My personal opinion is to ease him into the money aspect, if fair market rent is $500 where you live, start by next month him being responsible for half, then on month 2 up it to the full amount. 

Be careful he's not just getting money from another family member though.  We had that happen with someone on my wife's side.  He moved in with his sister to 'figure things out', they ended up working out a pay arrangement but here their mom was just giving him the money because she didn't want him living with her.  Kinda defeats the purpose. 

[Trippy]

Samwise lives in San Francisco. Very few people in the US can afford the fair market rent there now even with a real job

[Paelos]

I would tell your brother that if he can get a full-time job, you would help him cover some of his rent as he gets out on his own.

And since it's in SF he can get used to living in a 300 sqft studio for $2000 a month. Maybe you kick him $500 of that for a year. It's a better deal than what you have now.

But he needs to be on his own. It's part of the deal with growing up.

[Samwise]

Here's the thing, if someone is actively trying to better themselves, help them. Demand results, put them on schedules, make sure they are out of the house during the day. The worst pitfall for people to do anything is being in the house during the day doing nothing. It creates a cycle that you'll never get out of. Believe me, I've seen how alluring it can be just hanging around the house, drinking day beers, and shitting around on the computer all day. Even the simplest tasks look daunting because there's always tomorrow. There's nothing in the way.

100% agree.  That's the part where I wouldn't mind some creative full-Nerf suggestions -- how do I make sure he's out of the house during the day, being as I actually do have a job and can't be around to supervise him?  On occasions where I do happen to be home unexpectedly on a day where he's claimed he's working, I'll find him at home and he'll have a half-baked-sounding excuse about how his shift got moved.  Charging him rent is pretty much the only task I've thought of where I don't need to stand over him watching him do it AND he can't bullshit me about whether it's getting done -- I don't actually care about the money, I just need the verification that he's doing some kind of work.

Be careful he's not just getting money from another family member though.  We had that happen with someone on my wife's side.  He moved in with his sister to 'figure things out', they ended up working out a pay arrangement but here their mom was just giving him the money because she didn't want him living with her.  Kinda defeats the purpose.  

Also 100% agree.  

I've received second-hand intel that he owes money to his dad (that's who he "works" for -- I forgot to mention that detail).  So yeah, there's some of that going on.  The fact that he's in debt over there is also strong confirmation that he's not working anything resembling regular hours, since what I'm charging him weekly he could easily make in a couple of days work at minimum wage, and he has no other expenses -- if he were working full time he would be accruing savings hand over fist, and when he first moved in with me we talked about it and "agreed" that that would be a good plan for him.  My relationship with his dad (my former stepfather) is, shall we say, not good, so I can't check in with him directly.  The good news is that his dad has his own financial/legal issues to worry about, so that line of credit is going to dry up sooner rather than later.  Our mother is another possible enabler but aside from financing his car and parking tickets I don't think she's siphoning money to him -- she's easily conned into paying for things indirectly but doesn't tend to just hand out cash.

After stewing on some things said here I'm going to have some sit-down talks with both my mother and brother (separately).  I'm very non-confrontational by nature so just me saying "we need to talk" will on its own be enough to put the fear of God into them.  

My approach with my brother is going to be to ask him flat out what he wants the rest of his life to look like (and then after he gives me the bullshit answer he thinks I want to hear, say "no, really").  I want to allow for the possibility that he does have goals but he is being prevented (by lack of confidence, by external factors that I'm not seeing, by lack of ability to self-motivate) from pursuing them effectively, and if that's the case then I want to come up with a plan to help him along a path of his choosing.  If he does not have goals beyond hiding in his room all day then I'm going to set one for him (namely, get a better job and move the hell out of my guest room so he can start the rest of his life as a shut-in on his own) and we'll work on that plan.

What I want from my mother is more straightforward -- having foisted him off on me, she needs to actually cut the cord and stop paying for shit for him, because it's contributing to his general sluggishness and that's making my life more difficult.  We've discussed this in the past and she's agreed with my reasoning and claimed she'll do it, but it still hasn't happened.  What this thread of conversation has helped crystallize in my mind is that it's time for ultimatums, and I'm going to start there because it's something where there's a very clear and immediate plan of action.

Samwise lives in San Francisco. Very few people in the US can afford the fair market rent there now even with a real job

During the first month or so he was living with me, we sat down and looked at Craigslist listings together.  He could easily rent a room for $800 a month.  It's not like he has a wife and kids to support.

[Paelos]

You buried the lead. He's working for his dad? That shit doesn't count. REPEAT, DOES NOT COUNT.

Real job with a real boss within 2 months, minimum. Real job means, 4-5 days a week, working for a real company not owned by relatives or friends, making at least $10 an hour minimum including tips. I was a fucking caddy on a golf course and managed to pull down $450-600 a week working 4-5 loops a week with tips. That job required next to no education. Shit ain't hard. If he has to work retail or wait tables, so be it. Learn the lifestyle or get educated.

[schild]

Sounds like someone that needs to move to North Dakota and make $100k a year working in the oil sector.

[Merusk]

100% agree.  That's the part where I wouldn't mind some creative full-Nerf suggestions -- how do I make sure he's out of the house during the day, being as I actually do have a job and can't be around to supervise him?

Nerf-level solution to a guy dicking around on the internet all day is cut-off the internet & cable.  At the least he'll probably have to get out of the house to dick around.

If you don't want to cancel service, you've got other solutions. That router/ modem has parental controls and you can shut off access during certain hours. Even my Time-Warner standard Cable modem had that feature.

[Ironwood]

Or reboot it remotely every 5 mins.  Batch file, bitches.

[HaemishM]

It can be hard to find a job, but yeah, brother working for his dad is not even close to approaching a real job. That is a mooch situation if ever there was one.

[schild]

I can't stress how much a jobless person should not live in California - ESPECIALLY San Fran. That's fucking mental. Tell him to go be homeless in Portland, like half its residents.

[schild]

Anyone have all 5 seasons of Boston Legal stored totally legally on a hard drive? A certain something is going hilariously slow and for whatever reason, buying this shit is nearly impossible.

[Hammond]

If you want real Nerf level tough love hack your brothers MMO account and give it to a gold seller. That or limit his bandwidth to their servers enough that the game becomes unplayable. 

[Hawkbit]

homeless in Portland

All that shit on Etsy has to come from somewhere, right?

[Paelos]

Move him to Oakland.