Useless Conversation

[Der Helm]

I guess those shoes are not for people who still have to lose weight, right ? My knees and ankles hurt from even thinking about running in those things. 

[Morat20]

I guess those shoes are not for people who still have to lose weight, right ? My knees and ankles hurt from even thinking about running in those things.  

It's mostly for changing the way you run. I saw a video of the same runner on a treadmill, barefoot in one and wearing shoes in the other (same day, same runner, same speed).

The way she ran was absolutely different. In shoes, she came down heel first. Every time. Barefoot, she landed in the middle of her foot or the front. So the whole pitch is basically "modern shoes make you run wrong and you hurt yourself a lot more".

I will say the shoes I got, which I got without mentioning the whole barefoot thing and based entirely on "I had surgery for plantar fasciatius a few years ago and have these custom inserts and wanted to walk more and maybe get to jogging once I lose another 20 pounds" aren't made for barefoot running. But they're angled and designed to promote landing on the middle of your foot, not the heel, when you run. (This comes from a local shop that specializes in shoes for people with foot problems or hard-core runners. Or as is common, often both. They're the sort that measure both feet, make you walk and jog and scrutinize your gait, etc. Which is why I go to them and pay more. The shoes I end up with are deliciously comfortable).

[Cyrrex]

It makes sense to run the way those skimpy non-shoes make you run.  After all, that is the way nature designed you.  Faster the human body moves, the more it shifts balance towards the balls of the feet and away from the heel.

Of course, that is for when you are chasing after a speared hog, or running away from a leopard.  NOT for running super long distances every damn day as a form of cardio exercise.  I doubt the average human body, much less an overweight one, is going to put up with that sort of abuse for long.  And a far more important concern is this:  Holy God, do you look silly in those things.   

[Merusk]

Human body was built for long-distance walking/ jogging.  Sprinting isn't our thing, as evidenced by how goddamn slow we are.

[Nebu]

Human body was built for long-distance walking/ jogging.  Sprinting isn't our thing, as evidenced by how goddamn slow we are.

Human body was also designed to be about 6% body fat.  Carrying any extra weight places a HUGE burden on your knees.  In kinesiology, they teach that each additional pound of weight places something like a 4 lb burdon on your knees during jogging.  For that reason I value cushioned shoes and recommend them for anyone not around 6% body fat. 

[Merusk]

Also true, and we're a fat, fat nation.

I was taking exception to the statement that we weren't built for running long distances every day.  From what I've heard and read, we are.

[proudft]

Yep, our ability to sweat and carry our own water is how we are able to run things to death to eat their delicious delicious meats:  http://youtu.be/826HMLoiE_o

[Sky]

My kind was built to throw an axe hard enough to not have to run down the runners.

[Signe]

Yeah, well your kind is my kind too and the last time I saw our kind throw an axe she smashed my uncle's garden shed window.  It was made from glass.  Most of my kind on the other side of my family just throw their shoes at people.  Be honest.  Most of our kind was built to die cold and alone, stinking of akevitt.  In the rain.

[Morat20]

It makes sense to run the way those skimpy non-shoes make you run.  After all, that is the way nature designed you.  Faster the human body moves, the more it shifts balance towards the balls of the feet and away from the heel.

Of course, that is for when you are chasing after a speared hog, or running away from a leopard.  NOT for running super long distances every damn day as a form of cardio exercise.  I doubt the average human body, much less an overweight one, is going to put up with that sort of abuse for long.  And a far more important concern is this:  Holy God, do you look silly in those things.   

I suspect that the average run is still less time and less stress on your feet than our ancestors. For starters, I sit down all day for a living. Two miles three times a week, even at a hefty pace, is gonna be a lot less "on my feet" time than my ancestors who ran around all day finding food and whatnot. :)

Strangely, my knees haven't bothered me (treadmill, I suppose. I don't plan to do pavement running. Ever. That involves being outside under the Houston sun.)

The barefoot running thing is pretty much entirely about your feet, although it's supposedly healthier for your knees -- I think the base concept is the same as slapping the mat when you fall. Heel first running means your entire body way slams down onto your heel, more or less in a single instance. Forefoot or midfoot is a roll and spring, transfering that weight over a longer time span. Wider area over a longer period of time.

Less jolting like, everywhere. :)

[lamaros]

Is this where we talk about how women aren't 'designed' for strenuous physical exercise the same way men are? ;)

[JWIV]

Human body was built for long-distance walking/ jogging.  Sprinting isn't our thing, as evidenced by how goddamn slow we are.

Human body was also designed to be about 6% body fat.  Carrying any extra weight places a HUGE burden on your knees.  In kinesiology, they teach that each additional pound of weight places something like a 4 lb burdon on your knees during jogging.  For that reason I value cushioned shoes and recommend them for anyone not around 6% body fat. 

I'm desperately trying not to go all True Believer here. I hated the entire minimalist shoe movement this time last year and thought it little more than overblown hype. But after being injured _again_ after my third half marathon, and having to spend a month or two in rehab and rebuild my strength and endurance, I was pretty much willing to give anything a try.

Hell - that's why I ended up with the Xero's. I refused to pay 100+ bucks on toe shoes and discover that I hated the entire thing and it was a gimmick. Twenty bucks however I was willing to throw away in this case. But a funny thing happened, I got them, and literally in the same week where trying to run in a pair of Brooks had me hobbling home after half a mile, I was able to do three in the Xero's. My form was shit, I was footsore, my calves were on fire, and I definitely had a few tender spots on the soles of my feet after it.  But, I was able to run again.

There are at least various lines now of various running shoes that are moving towards a more 'natural' running style while maintaining a level of cushioning and protection (Nike Free, Brooks Pure, and Newton's, though they're slightly different), so there are alternatives other than Vibrams or huaraches (eg. Luna, Xero shoes) .  So my advice at least is at least take a look at some options - there is a sizable percentage of people that for whatever reason, the best running form for them is completely incompatible with the current trend of heavy cushioned motion control shoes, and rather than helping them, it's going to simply cause them grief.

[Morat20]

I got the New Balance 1080v2 -- which aren't minimalist shoes, but the sole (heel and such padding) is closer to neutral, pushing the foot towards a midstrike not a heel. I haven't gotten up to running, but they're hella comforrtable shoes. (If pricey).

And walking in them is definetly different than my old shoes -- my feet are sore, I can tell I'm walking differently, but it's not the sort of "oh shit, I fucked up my feet" sore. It's "oh hey, I haven't walked like this in awhile" sore.

I think a lot of the running shoes in general are moving towards a neutral or natural or whatever they call it style. Getting away from the heel angles and stuff that promoted heel strikes.

I'm seriously considering trying out a minimalist shoe, at least on a treadmill -- not for six to eight weeks, though. I'm still dealing with like 7 years of shit for exercise. Wait until I can handle a 20 minute mile without feeling tired first. :)

[Trippy]

New Balance has their Minimus line some of which are "zero lift" which means the heel lift is the same as the midfoot lift. I got a pair with zero lift to indoor row with since elevating your heels messes things up and I didn't like rowing with bare feet.

[Morat20]

New Balance has their Minimus line some of which are "zero lift" which means the heel lift is the same as the midfoot lift. I got a pair with zero lift to indoor row with since elevating your heels messes things up and I didn't like rowing with bare feet.

I considred those, but I had a plantar fasciatios that required surgery four years ago and I wasn't sure how they'd work with orthotics. (one reason i'm paranoid about my feet). The 1080v2 line is balanced enough not to promote a heel strike but  plays well with orthotics. Best compromise i could make without seeing my podiatrist.

And I don't blame them (podiatrists) for waiting for more info this whole minimalist running thing. Even if it's everything it's touted as, a lot of people switching are cracking bones and fucking up their Achilles tendon by trying to do too much without reconditioning their feet. (Or doing even dumber shit like running on pavement as a starter. Vibrims and shit keep you from getting cut on rocks and glass, but don't pad the bruises from stomping on a rock that much).

Damn surgery. Spent a year trying everything else -- night splints, steroid shots, even a course of steroids (funny fact: I get a rare side effect. Hiccups. Trying hiccuping for four hours after taking a pill, a pill you take twice a day. It gets old in about 20 minutes. By the end of two weeks the thought of swalloing that pill damn near made me cry because of the damn hiccups that would be coming).

[Cyrrex]

Also true, and we're a fat, fat nation.

I was taking exception to the statement that we weren't built for running long distances every day.  From what I've heard and read, we are.

I was mostly being snarky, for no other reason than I intensely dislike running as a form of cardio exercise.  But more to the point, as Nebu basically pointed out, what I said was close enough to the truth...there is probably a grand total of zero people on this board who have a body perfectly equipped for barefoot running over long distances.  A couple of the serious runners around here (people like JWIV and Draconian come to mind) have probably built up enough general muscle and tendon strength to manage it, but that is definitely the exception.  They run so much that their bodies may have adapted enough to deal with the excess weight.

And don't for a second think that sitting around in an office chair all week makes it easier on your knees out of some misguided belief that you are protecting your tendons or something.  It is quite the opposite.

[Miasma]

There was a timely article today in the nyt about the barefoot running being talked about a couple pages back.  Study will be done in the summer.

[murdoc]

Man, I really need to figure out a better way to deal with depression. After a week, I am finally dragging myself up out of this feeling of sheer panic, anxiety and feelings of doom.

I've turned down medication over the years, but I think it's time to really have a serious talk with a doctor about this. With an actual family now, I can't just shut down for 7 days.

[Lantyssa]

I resisted medicine for decades.  A low dose of Prozac made a huge difference after a few months.  The stress is still there, but anxiety doesn't paralyze me anymore (just laziness ).

Though it took a bit to get used to.  I felt very 'fuzzy' for the first month.  I can't say about other options out there, but they'll probably have their own quirks.

[murdoc]

...but anxiety doesn't paralyze me anymore (just laziness ).

This is the worst part about it. I'll spend a day just sitting at my desk at work with the door shut staring at a screen and the panic will get worse and worse as I realize I'm just sitting here not doing ANYTHING and start to panic about that. It just keep spiraling down.

The fuzzy feeling is what I am most worried about. It seems like when I've had these dicussions before whatever they were suggesting would "normalize" my moods which meant that the lows wouldn't be as low, but the highs wouldn't be as high which I wasn't willing to accept at the time - but the lows are starting to outweigh the highs by a large amount.

[Miasma]

I resent taking medication but I have to admit it really helps.  I get some side effects so I usually don't stay on them more than a few months but if I'm at rock bottom it's an effective relief.  If you've never taken them before I'd recommend getting a prescription from a psychiatrist rather than an M.D.  It's thier main specialty so they tend to be better at monitoring your side effects, changing things up, ensuring you only start gradually with a low dose and then ease into the regular dose.

If you decide to go off them later you should also talk to your doctor and do it gradually, don't just stop taking the full dose all the sudden.

There is a popular workbook you may want to use too, either by yourself or with a therapist that also uses it.  Most self help books are just feel good stories and are only useful because they let you know others have the same problems.  They don't really solve anything though, it's mostly just tired advice and cliches.  The workbook on the other hand is more like an exercise routine, there are explanations and stories but its emphasis is on actually writing out journals, how to structure them, recording your mood and getting you to activily change your behaviour.  It's actually a fair bit of work.

[Miasma]

The fuzzy feeling is what I am most worried about. It seems like when I've had these dicussions before whatever they were suggesting would "normalize" my moods which meant that the lows wouldn't be as low, but the highs wouldn't be as high which I wasn't willing to accept at the time - but the lows are starting to outweigh the highs by a large amount.

No the highs are just as high, things you enjoy are just as enjoyable*.  I also get the fuzzy feeling and it's important to note that it isn't overwhelming or bad, it just is, and you quickly get used to it and then don't notice it too much.  It's very hard to explain.  It's almost as though since I'm so used to depression and anxiety that its absence (more like severe reduction) leaves an impression.  The fuzzyness is where the depressed, anxious, angry and cynical stuff would normally come from, but it's muted.

* Unfortunately one of the most common side effects is sexual in nature.

[murdoc]

There is a popular workbook you may want to use too, either by yourself or with a therapist that also uses it.  Most self help books are just feel good stories and are only useful because they let you know others have the same problems.  They don't really solve anything though, it's mostly just tired advice and cliches.  The workbook on the other hand is more like an exercise routine, there are explanations and stories but its emphasis is on actually writing out journals, how to structure them, recording your mood and getting you to activily change your behaviour.  It's actually a fair bit of work.

Thanks for the link - I'll take a look. It's time I really started fixing this instead of just putting up with it and I know it's going to take a lot of effort on my part. I've been this way for 20+ years, I don't expect it to change overnight or easily.

[Lantyssa]

The fuzziness I had was biochemical.  The closest feeling I can relate it to is being tipsy.  I wasn't impaired, but I knew something was 'different' than normal.  That feeling went away after awhile, or perhaps I just can't tell it's there as it's become my new normal.

This is the worst part about it. I'll spend a day just sitting at my desk at work with the door shut staring at a screen and the panic will get worse and worse as I realize I'm just sitting here not doing ANYTHING and start to panic about that. It just keep spiraling down.

This was me when my job got cut to half-time and I knew I needed to find something else.  It extended to other areas that were problems, too.  (It's silly, but I have anxiety talking on the phone and driving long distances or to unknown places.  I still don't enjoy doing them, but I don't shut down at the thought now.)

[WayAbvPar]

I had moderately severe panic/anxiety for several years, especially while driving (I would freak out if I was on a freeway or limited access road.. almost like claustrophobia). Very strange from someone who worked as a courier a decade before. Tried a couple of different meds (first one had a side effect that I decided was impacting my quality of life  ) and ended up on Wellbutrin, plus a supply of Xanax for situational stuff (mostly flying, but just general panic too). I think I was on meds for about 5 years, then weaned myself off of them as I felt better. I don't take anything now and am fairly confident about avoiding the panic attacks. I can sort of feel the flutters of panic if I think long enough about it when I am driving, but it is very muted (much like when I was medicated). Probably some strange brain chemistry thing that sorted itself out?

[Trippy]

Niacin deficiency.

[WayAbvPar]

Niacin deficiency.

Interesting. I did start taking multivitamins somewhere in there too.

[Engels]

The brain is super weird. With meds you can 'train' it to stop spazzing out, and then when you cut the meds off, the brain has 'forgotten' to spaz out as much. YMMV

[Morat20]

The brain is super weird. With meds you can 'train' it to stop spazzing out, and then when you cut the meds off, the brain has 'forgotten' to spaz out as much. YMMV

Never had to use such drugs myself (my brain chemistry problems cause seizures, not depression or anxiety). My brother has a mild case of OCD -- well, mild as far as those things go. It was bad enough to be causing significant problems socializing and handling school when he was in his teens.

He spent a few years on medication. I don't know how it works inside his brain, but he said the meds basically gave him a new baseline of 'normal' and more importantly -- turned down the problems enough that he could (with a therapist) actually work on them. He doesn't take them now, but the few years he was on them gave him enough of a space and time to get a handle on the issue and develop methods for dealing with it.

A few ADHD sufferers say the same thing about their meds. Having been on them, it makes it easier (if not ever exactly easy) to mitigate their problems when they are off the medicine.

[Sky]

I found medical marijuana was good

[Samwise]

Alcohol has always worked well for me.

[Yegolev]

Man, I really need to figure out a better way to deal with depression. After a week, I am finally dragging myself up out of this feeling of sheer panic, anxiety and feelings of doom.

I've turned down medication over the years, but I think it's time to really have a serious talk with a doctor about this. With an actual family now, I can't just shut down for 7 days.

I recommend a round of Lexapro combined with stress therapy.  The hard part will  be finding a therapist that isn't complete bullshit.  Don't be afraid to bounce around until you find someone that you agree with.  Also, if possible, pay yourself since insurance companies will limit treatment options.

Although even with all my progress, I still have to take an omeprazole every day.

[Samwise]

There is a popular workbook you may want to use too, either by yourself or with a therapist that also uses it.  Most self help books are just feel good stories and are only useful because they let you know others have the same problems.  They don't really solve anything though, it's mostly just tired advice and cliches.  The workbook on the other hand is more like an exercise routine, there are explanations and stories but its emphasis is on actually writing out journals, how to structure them, recording your mood and getting you to activily change your behaviour.  It's actually a fair bit of work.

Just now scrolled back and saw this -- sounds neat.  CBT in book form.

[Trippy]

Man, I really need to figure out a better way to deal with depression. After a week, I am finally dragging myself up out of this feeling of sheer panic, anxiety and feelings of doom.

I've turned down medication over the years, but I think it's time to really have a serious talk with a doctor about this. With an actual family now, I can't just shut down for 7 days.

Try Niacin before you start taking prescribed drugs. Seriously.

[Signe]

Fuck the therapy.  Just eat/drink/smoke the drugs.  I can guarantee you that something different will happen.