Useless Conversation

[RhyssaFireheart]

Ah, I love smelling like chlorine before going to bed.  Oh well, still felt good to swim/kickboard a 1/2 mile.  Not bad for a fat chick!

[Sky]

I hope you don't burn out on evangelising the KS and save some energy for the actual painting!

I'm an excellent salesperson for stuff I like! Check my blog/the mini thread, I'm getting active again with painting. It's so much better with good minis and brushes, just need to up my photography so I can get some better feedback.

And good on ya, Rhyssa! I love swimming and really should find a decent body of water to jump into.

[Merusk]

Why hasn't anyone seriously challenged AutoCAD? It's so awesomely shitty at what it is that I'm kind of astonished that it stands so alone.

It is simple, any time someone comes out with a product that Autodesk sees as a threat to their effective monopoly, they buy them out.

And they are more deeply entrenched in the architecture/building/construction/civil engineering fields than Microsoft has ever been in the enterprise IT world.

Both of these are true, but there's more to it than that.  Whatever alternate someone were to come up with would have to work like AutoCAD simply due to retraining.  People are loathe to give-up AutoCAD because the software is just so damn customizable. One if it's biggest strengths AND biggest flaws here. Too many alternate CAD programs force people to a layer or drawing standard that they simply don't want to adopt.   There's an old saw that you can draw a line 15 different ways in AutoCAD and it's pretty damn close to true.  That means a lot of people can adapt the software to their own quirks instead of needing to force their brain to work differently.

Then there's the 20-plus years of backlogged information.  Whatever alternative might come-up needs to work with these seamlessly.   That's a lot of man hours and cost wrapped-up in old details, prototypes, references and standards that businesses aren't just going to give-up.  It's not sunk-cost, it's currently working and making them money and needs to continue to do so.

Additionally, 2d CAD is dying so trying to rise-up and challenge them on that level is foolishness.  Part Modeling, Machine Modeling and Building Information Modeling (BIM) are the future.  There *were* competitors here but the big names foolishly ignored that we, the users, have that backlog of nearly 20 years of details and references we're still going to need to use.  

I looked at 3-d solutions for 3 of the big national builders (#21 or higher) and spoke with others in my position at other builders.   Cost estimates were $3-$4 million just in conversion of software and retraining of staff.  Plus a production time loss after the conversion as current highly-trained users would now be novices and would have to learn all new tips, tricks and work-arounds.  All 3 companies passed, saying they'd rather let someone else pay this - as one exec called it "Idiot Tax" (I've also heard it called "Early Adopter Fee") and scoop-up pros down the line. (These come from A/E firms who have clients that will pay or government jobs that require it.)  Makes sense when you look at it from a numbers perspective.

On top of that, though, was the aforementioned cost of the old references.  Floor plans would need to be redrawn, as would construction details and schedules, etc.   Costs for converting only the top 10 of nearly 70 plans offered by one builder reached another $1 million and a lead time of 6-8 weeks - per house   Plus no guarantee of quality so you were taking a crap-shoot on them actually drawing shit right.  Considering most farmed this work out to the East and I've seen those drawings, it would be shitty shit shit awful and need to be redrawn in-house anyway, leading to additional lost time and money.

However, that was just for the base house.   Builders live on options, like auto manufacturers. (Want a bay window? A 3 car garage? 3rd Bathroom? A finished basement?  That's where we made our money.)  Once again, plenty of reason to pass here for now.

Unlike those other companies, AutoDesk has leveraged their monopoly on the market and their knowledge of their own systems and formats to embrace the old backlog.  You can't use an old drawing in Revit, but you can at least keep your old details, edit them in AutoCAD and attach them to a sheet in the set.  (In fact, many users will tell you this is the preferred method since Revit's 2d tools SUUUUCK)   Tack-on that the "Revit Suite" package from AutoDesk gives you ACAD and Revit for the same price and you've got a package that simply can not  be beat right now.

And probably won't be for a very long time, if ever.

[Zetor]

What about ArchiCAD? (Graphisoft)

I remember ~15 years ago the founder / 'head honcho developer guy' for Graphisoft held a talk at our high school and was bragging about how they were threatening Autodesk's #1 spot by following a different road than AutoCAD and pioneering BIM... but looking at their latest numbers (100k users?) they didn't seem to dominate the market after all. Still probably one of Hungary's most successful IT companies, though.  

[Merusk]

ArchiCAD was one of the softwares I looked at.  It also had the least penetration, steepest learning curve, least actual information in it's "BIM" system AND worst interoperability with AutoCAD drawings.

They certainly were one of the innovators with Parametrics and 3d on-the-fly modeling.  I was impressed that they'd been doing it for as long as they had, but they never really got anywhere, it seems. 

I can't say why they never took off but if I had to guess it's that you needed a graphic accelerator back in the days that PCs were math-only machines. (Which is all AutoCAD is.. vectors and math)  The first time I'd encountered ArchiCAD was in 1996 at a firm that was all Macintosh-based PCs and nothing else.   We know how well that worked for the business world.

They had their shot when they came out 20 years ago but were too ahead of their time, I guess. Sucks to be them, because most of their good ideas have been incorporated into the other softwares like Revit, Vertex BD and Bentley.

[murdoc]

Ah, I love smelling like chlorine before going to bed.  Oh well, still felt good to swim/kickboard a 1/2 mile.  Not bad for a fat chick!

I've vowed to get back into swimming this fall. I spent a fair bit of time out at the lake this summer and it brought back the love I had for swimming.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Ah, I love smelling like chlorine before going to bed.  Oh well, still felt good to swim/kickboard a 1/2 mile.  Not bad for a fat chick!

I've vowed to get back into swimming this fall. I spent a fair bit of time out at the lake this summer and it brought back the love I had for swimming.

I like the swimming as a nice alternative to just lifting weights, which is what I do on the other days (weights M-W-Sa, swim T-Th), plus it just feels good to do.  I do sets of 6 lengths, freestyle and then using the kickboard with swimfins and it's nice and smooth.  Otherwise I tend to not kick much, which is a problem, too.  At least the husband doesn't swim with as well, because that gives me a complex.  He was a competitive swimmer in HS and just glides through the water while I feel like I'm flailing around.

I have become a bit of a lap pool snob though and get irritated when folks just seem to be poking around in the lanes instead of being consistent.  One lady last night was taking forever to do a length of the pool and then waiting like 1-2 minutes between lengths. 

Oh, and "no fog" goggles don't exist, I don't care what the package labeling said.    I'd be even quicker if I didn't have to keep stopping to clear my lenses.

[Rishathra]

I have become a bit of a lap pool snob though and get irritated when folks just seem to be poking around in the lanes instead of being consistent.  One lady last night was taking forever to do a length of the pool and then waiting like 1-2 minutes between lengths.

I thought that was just me and that I was a horrible person for thinking shit like that.  Good to know I'm not alone.  It has gotten to the point that I use my rage in my workouts pretty much all the time.  Somebody is always doing something *wrong* in the pool and it drives me up the fucking wall.  I'm not talking about their stroke not being perfect or anything like that, more stuff like Rhyssa's example.

There's one regular who goes beyond rage inducing into just plain  .  Aside from the whole, 'swim a length, wait five minutes, swim a length' thing, she has this weird habit of stopping every other length, pulling a face cloth out of a Ziploc bag, and drying her face.  IN. A. POOL.  WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU IN A GODDAMN POOL IF YOU HAVE HANGUPS ABOUT GETTING WATER ON YOU?  GO TAKE A WALK OR SOMETHING.  YOU'LL PROBABLY GET MORE OUT OF IT ANYWAYS AND YOU'LL STOP HOGGING THE LANE AND LET PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRYING TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF THEIR EXERCISE HAVE A CHANCE!  WHARRRGARRBLL!

Ahem.  So, yeah.  It irritates me.

[Merusk]

Oh, and "no fog" goggles don't exist, I don't care what the package labeling said.    I'd be even quicker if I didn't have to keep stopping to clear my lenses.

I swam too and swore by spit since anti-fog spray cost too much for me.  (And you have to reapply it regularly, it's not a permanent solution.)   Spit in them, rub it around with your thumb and then rinse them in the pool. 

If this is too gross for you, I also read on lifehacker that shaving foam (not gel) or a potato rubbed on them works as well.

[Viin]

Stop breathing through your eyes and it won't be a problem.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Oh, and "no fog" goggles don't exist, I don't care what the package labeling said.    I'd be even quicker if I didn't have to keep stopping to clear my lenses.

I swam too and swore by spit since anti-fog spray cost too much for me.  (And you have to reapply it regularly, it's not a permanent solution.)   Spit in them, rub it around with your thumb and then rinse them in the pool. 

If this is too gross for you, I also read on lifehacker that shaving foam (not gel) or a potato rubbed on them works as well.

Yeah, I know all about spitting in your mask from scuba diving.  It seemed to work better for my full mask than it does for my goggles.  I think it may be because I have more of a sport goggle than actual swimming ones (I needed a new pair and these were what I found at the end of the season on short notice).  I'll try some other options, but last night was bad for some reason, I could barely get a length before the fog was back.  Didn't stop me, just annoying is all.

@ Rishathra - you are not alone!  And now I don't feel so bad either, knowing I'm not the only one.  People don't linger like that on the weight machines upstairs, but somehow a few folks think it's cool to hog the lap lanes even though we only have 5 of them. Ugh.

[Sky]

Maybe they're in poor shape and need the breather between laps.

[tazelbain]

Maybe she needs a cat toy to motivate her.

[Hammond]

Why hasn't anyone seriously challenged AutoCAD? It's so awesomely shitty at what it is that I'm kind of astonished that it stands so alone.

It is simple, any time someone comes out with a product that Autodesk sees as a threat to their effective monopoly, they buy them out.

And they are more deeply entrenched in the architecture/building/construction/civil engineering fields than Microsoft has ever been in the enterprise IT world.

About 8 years ago my company converted from AutoCAD to Solidworks because of the switch to 3d modeling.   Price point was a bit cheaper but the users had to get retrained.  We are a fairly small shop with about 20 seat lnetwork license so we share them among 35 users. Dassault Systems bought them out a few years back and the pricing has increased a bit.  Solidworks really is more for the manufacturing world than building/construction.   It really is a nice package and while it is complicate it is light years more user friendly than AutoCad.

[Sky]

Some scale drawings for Nethyrmaul. I especially like the one scaled against that $278 Colossal Red Dragon from WoTC.


You can get Nethyrmaul for a minimum of $26.

[Lantyssa]

It is simple, any time someone comes out with a product that Autodesk sees as a threat to their effective monopoly, they buy them out.

Anyone want to start a CAD software company with me?

[Sky]

Ooh, me! I'm quite the cad, so I've been told.

[Rasix]

 

[Hammond]

Sigh Apple fanboys are no fun talking with about Apple products.

[Paelos]

Sigh Apple fanboys are no fun talking with about Apple products.

To make my point to one of those people: I printed out an apple logo, taped it to a $5 pocket screwdriver, and told my buddy I would sell him this awesome Iscrew for $30. He was not amused.

[Hammond]

Not even worth it anymore to screw with them.  Had one tell me he was waiting on the new Iphone 5 because it was going to be so awesome.  I was like uh... nobody knows what it is going to be like yet how do you know it is going to be awesome? Somehow I became a Apple hater.  Me being the guy with apple products (ipod) windows, android, linux etc.  Sigh whatever. 

On a positive note the random power outages we were seeing today have seemed to stop.

[Merusk]

Why hasn't anyone seriously challenged AutoCAD? It's so awesomely shitty at what it is that I'm kind of astonished that it stands so alone.

It is simple, any time someone comes out with a product that Autodesk sees as a threat to their effective monopoly, they buy them out.

And they are more deeply entrenched in the architecture/building/construction/civil engineering fields than Microsoft has ever been in the enterprise IT world.

About 8 years ago my company converted from AutoCAD to Solidworks because of the switch to 3d modeling.   Price point was a bit cheaper but the users had to get retrained.  We are a fairly small shop with about 20 seat lnetwork license so we share them among 35 users. Dassault Systems bought them out a few years back and the pricing has increased a bit.  Solidworks really is more for the manufacturing world than building/construction.   It really is a nice package and while it is complicate it is light years more user friendly than AutoCad.

He's a university, not a company.  He has to maintain some AutoCAD for Architecture and several engineering disciplines at a minimum. It's the industry standard and schools don't get to go, "Whelp, not gonna support that!" without discovering their students aren't getting hired. Which in turn leads to no students.

Heard lots of tangential good stuff about solid works, though.  AutoDesk Inventor is aimed at competing there IIRC, right?

[Hammond]

Yep Inventor is a poor competition to Solidworks.  We have tried it out a few times and they are still far behind solidworks in the usability world.  They seriously need to do a rethink of the workflow in their products...    One the big thing for us with SolidWorks is it has integration into our CNC and milling machines.  So they design parts and fixtures and drop the models into our CNC machine and mill them out.   Same for our 3d printers.  Also across our industry it is a common tool for our suppliers so we can all talk a similar talk.


As far as universities and AutoCAD goes.  Yea I see your point.  Unfortunately in the Architecture world I do not think there is a ton of competition. But since 2d modeling is slowly dying off you might see some opportunities showing up as AutoCAD  has to compete in the 3d modeling world more. 

[ghost]

All I know is my macs are buggy pieces of shit since I moved up to Lion.

[Sky]

Really? Mine have been running pretty awesome with 10.7.

[ghost]

Yeah, I don't know what's up.  It may be that there is some conflict with my office management software. 

[Sky]

Well, it has been an expensive journey as we had to upgrade every piece of software we use...

[Merusk]

As far as universities and AutoCAD goes.  Yea I see your point.  Unfortunately in the Architecture world I do not think there is a ton of competition. But since 2d modeling is slowly dying off you might see some opportunities showing up as AutoCAD  has to compete in the 3d modeling world more. 

As Chimpy and I outlined above.. newp. AutoDesk has made damn-sure to buy-up any competitors in the commercial & industrial building world.  The residential/ housing world has some wiggle-room right now, but as commercial/ industrial adopts Revit and works-out the kinks those people will filter in to residential and transmute them to the same platform.

The future of building design is Revit and little else right now.  Bently put-up a good fight but AutoDesk had the better connections & marketing department to get in with owners and government contacts.  From my view it's all over but the last bit of thrashing.

[Hammond]

Same was said about AutoCAD in manufacturing and there are several different competitors these days.  All it really takes is people to get sick enough of them to be willing to go with a competitor.  The odds of that? Probably little to none but one can hope  .  At any rate I feel for the admins that have to support that crap.  I got enough garbage licensing / software packages to deal with here.

[Mrbloodworth]

Back in the day we used full-table plexi with grease pencils to map stuff out. At my house I had that on one table and a chalkboard on another.

I'm loving the pathfinder fold out map.

[ghost]

Apparently, my job when I get home from work is a plumber.  I've had to unstop a fucking toilet every other day this month.   

[Sky]

Less fiber! 

[ghost]

This particular instance I had to pull the fucking toilet up.  It's in my top 10 most disgusting things I've done list.   

[MuffinMan]

Must have been an epic shit.

[Hammond]

Considering you are a dentist that is saying something.  I can only imagine some of the mouths your hands have been in....  My current dentist did part time work for the local prison.  He told me a story about a meth addict he worked on one time.  I guess gross is not strong enough to describe the horrors of that occasion.