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Author Topic: Veteran Rewards Info  (Read 35823 times)
stray
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Reply #70 on: October 04, 2006, 05:24:29 PM

Quote
I don't think it's real fair to suggest that all game's classes should be able to play in ways distinctively uncharacteristic of that class.
When did I ever say that?
In using the WoW Shadow Priest example against CoH, you were.

That has nothing to do with why I mentioned the Shadow Priest.

Llava stated that all classes, in "every class based game ever", play out in such strictly defined, one dimensional ways. I mentioned WoW Priests (and other WoW healer classes) to demonstrate how untrue that is. Same goes for Shadowbane -- Confessors, Druids, Prelates, Channellers, and yes, even Priests (the Bladeweaver ones) -- All healers, and all notorious for their asskicking abilities.

If you want to join in that particular conversation, then be my guest. I only ask one thing though: Read what I have to say first.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 05:29:59 PM by Stray »
Llava
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Reply #71 on: October 04, 2006, 08:12:24 PM

True story.

What I should have said was all specializations make you do that.  The problem with CoH isn't that the characters aren't flexible enough, it's that you have to commit to a specialization at character creation and there's no way to change it later without rerolling- your chosen powersets very much determine what your character is capable of doing.  So while that is a problem, we have to keep in mind that Defenders don't offer one single playstyle any more than Druids and Priests are basically the same class in WoW because they can both heal.  A kinetic/electric can become an endurance draining powerhouse, an empath is the ultimate support character, and a force fielder is a group buffer with an impressive amount of defense for himself.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
geldonyetich
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Reply #72 on: October 04, 2006, 09:38:02 PM

My apologies if I misread what you were saying, but in my defense it was an easy misunderstanding to make.  There's a fine line between trying to disprove that all MMORPGs limit their classes to specific roles versus trying to prove that all MMORPGs should be able to allow their classes to perform outside of their specific roles.

WoW vrs CoH is apples and oranges, different development teams with different priorities.  Does the Blizzard team's decision to allow Priests to be specialized in such a way as to do comparitively the best damage really have anything to do with Cryptic's decision to have their Defenders perform inferior damage?  The way I see it, bringing up the existance of the Shadow Priest (or any World of Warcraft class) in a City of Heroes discussion only establishes that Blizzard made a different decision - not better, not worse, not connected to CoH in any way.

So, in critiquing the poor damage rate Defender and Dominator in City of Heroes, I prefer to stick to what exists within the game itself.  The existance of secondary pools whose only purpose is to do damage suggests that the archetypes should be capable of doing at least moderate damage.  When level 20 rolls around and it is discovered that their damage is worst of all (or nearly all) other archetypes, the secondary power pools strike me as being unneccessarily misleading.  Upping the damage may be one solution, but better documentaiton may have worked as well.  To an extent, I can at least see the secondary powers applying in situaitons where a little extra damage is all that you can contribute at that moment.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 09:43:32 PM by geldonyetich »

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Reply #73 on: October 04, 2006, 10:05:21 PM

On topic, the second set of veteran rewards have been announced.

In short, they are:

15 month - Wings
18 month - Samurai Armour (which you can use piecemeal or as a whole suit)
21 month - Shoulder Cape
24 month - Emergency Teleport Back to SG / VG base power

Also, there's a video on the page that shows off the Veteran Rewards costume pieces (NB: walking actually not possible in CoH/V for PCs) that we know about to date.

Sky
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Reply #74 on: October 05, 2006, 07:30:15 AM

Quote
Nothing like perpetual debt to hurt an archetype's popularity.
Bah, I forgot about the debt thing. No wonder I thought the game was such a grind, I was always in debt. More grind!
Nebu
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Reply #75 on: October 05, 2006, 09:22:31 AM

Bah, I forgot about the debt thing. No wonder I thought the game was such a grind, I was always in debt. More grind!

[Vanguard]You're just not hardcore enough to appreciate the value of experience debt.[/Vanguard]

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Llava
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Reply #76 on: October 05, 2006, 09:39:07 AM


That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
geldonyetich
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Reply #77 on: October 05, 2006, 11:07:56 AM

Bah, I forgot about the debt thing. No wonder I thought the game was such a grind, I was always in debt. More grind!
[Vanguard]You're just not hardcore enough to appreciate the value of experience debt.[/Vanguard]
I will say one thing for death penalties in MMORPGs: they do create an actual reason to play well.  City of Heroes penalty I don't find too severe - better debt than removing existing experience and rolling back levels.

A few patches ago, they reduced the death penalty further by making you lose much less xp if you die in an instanced mission area, and also giving some death penalty immunity to the recently ressurected.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 12:30:50 PM by geldonyetich »

Nebu
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Reply #78 on: October 05, 2006, 01:58:03 PM

I will say one thing for death penalties in MMORPGs: they do create an actual reason to play well. 

Do people need a carrot to play well beyond the fact that playing well = more fun?  If playing well isn't more fun than playing "not well", then perhaps the developers should look into the mechanics of their game.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Llava
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Reply #79 on: October 05, 2006, 02:17:46 PM

Normally it's more fun, but CoH has a unique factor in this- prisons inside missions.  Basically, anyone could solo anything that takes place inside a prison because you die, release to two feet away, and try again.  Eventually you'll wear them down.

Also, there are some powers that are balanced around it coming at the cost of someone's death. Vengeance is a huge team buff that has to be targetted on a friendly corpse, while Fallout is an extreme damage AOE with the same target.  The strength of these powers is justified in their requiring an ally to die to be able to use them.  If dying doesn't matter, then it's not really a trade.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
geldonyetich
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Reply #80 on: October 05, 2006, 02:53:02 PM

Quote from: Nebu
Do people need a carrot to play well beyond [some people's opinion] that playing well = more fun?
I'd say it's less about proviing a carrot to play well so much as raining on the parade of those who won't take the game seriously.  But maybe I'm channeling McQuaid-brand fascism there.

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Reply #81 on: October 05, 2006, 04:55:39 PM

Quote
Nothing like perpetual debt to hurt an archetype's popularity.
Bah, I forgot about the debt thing. No wonder I thought the game was such a grind, I was always in debt. More grind!
Debt is good for those who actually like to follow mission storylines, thanks to the brain-damaged mission system. I know people who play with perma-debt just so they don't outlevel their contacts which, like you said, makes the grind even worse. It's similar to how rest experience is *bad* in WoW if you are trying to maximize your quest faction/reputation points.
Sky
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Reply #82 on: October 06, 2006, 07:13:36 AM

So it's a good workaround for a game flaw.

It rains on the parade of people who don't take the game seriously.

It allows people to solo things by wearing them down.

Ok, you've all bolstered my point :)
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Reply #83 on: October 06, 2006, 07:33:38 AM


Lantyssa
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Reply #84 on: October 06, 2006, 09:32:22 AM

Debt is good for those who actually like to follow mission storylines, thanks to the brain-damaged mission system. I know people who play with perma-debt just so they don't outlevel their contacts which, like you said, makes the grind even worse. It's similar to how rest experience is *bad* in WoW if you are trying to maximize your quest faction/reputation points.
I am one of those players who liked to follow all the missions, at least until the high teens where debt is no longer needed if solo, or into the 30's if duoing.  Debt certainly doesn't bother me after being in perma-debt for 30 levels, but I fail to see how people die so often as to make it a real annoyance.  Across all my characters, including a very ugly learning period after the ED/tanker changes, I have not died more than a few dozen times.  Half of those I knew it was likely going into the fight.

My problem is that in the 40's (earlier in CoV for me, maybe because of disillusionment) it becomes pointless, boring mission after mission within the stories.  Once the story starts getting dragged out for the sake of adding more missions, it becomes uninteresting to me.  Until then I never noticed a "grind".  Were the steps more interesting than, "Okay, now go to this building and fight the same people again", I probably still wouldn't.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Sky
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Reply #85 on: October 06, 2006, 12:23:45 PM

I remember a lot of mobs that could rip apart my blaster when I was soloing. Anything with a strong ranged attack was tough and anything that knocked me out of the air meant instant death, pretty much. I often thought of rolling up a melee character because I'd get torn up so easily soloing with my blaster.

Same thing happened in EQ2, my SK hit 30 in about half the time my Wizard took because he could just rip through mobs so much easier.
Lantyssa
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Reply #86 on: October 06, 2006, 02:10:49 PM

I did notice a tendancy for blasters to charge ahead regardless of the opposition.  Perhaps it is the difference in mindsets between people who likes to play defensively and offensively.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Sky
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Reply #87 on: October 06, 2006, 02:33:36 PM

I'm talking about timidly trying to solo in outdoor zones. Indoors, it's much worse. For a while outdoors, I would use my superlong sniper shot to aggro a group, then go out of range until they all split up, then zoom in and plink away at the main mob I hit. It was pretty lame but the only way I could hunt effectively at the time. Any mistakes and I'd die.
Hutch
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Reply #88 on: October 25, 2006, 11:56:43 AM

Months 27 through 36 have been announced

Click link, then scroll down to find all the details.

Summary:
27 = Dedicated. "Anime-style tech armor" costume set.
30 = Committed. Signature costume chest emblems. Signature base items.
33 = Unswerving. Choice of permanent Nemesis Staff or Blackwand.
36 = Addicted. Base Item: Longbow or Arachnos flying vehicle. Non-combat pet (choice of 5 pets).

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The sun will shine on us again, brother
eldaec
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Reply #89 on: October 25, 2006, 12:33:37 PM

33 is also yet another respec btw.

I just mention this for those who are concerned at how hard respecs are to get.


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Stormwaltz
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Reply #90 on: October 25, 2006, 12:43:31 PM

27 = Dedicated. "Anime-style tech armor" costume set.

Someone has confused "Power Rangers sentai group suit" with "anime tech armor."

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

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Llava
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Reply #91 on: October 25, 2006, 09:05:51 PM

Nice on the pets.  That'll be a fun little thing.

Also like the signature group chest emblems, great for concept characters who are in The Council or what have you.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Nebu
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Reply #92 on: October 26, 2006, 08:52:02 AM

So it's a good workaround for a game flaw.

It rains on the parade of people who don't take the game seriously.

It allows people to solo things by wearing them down.

Ok, you've all bolstered my point :)

While people hate them both, XP debt and corpse runs do add to the intensity of play in an intangible way.  Perhaps that type of intensity isn't for you.  We all have different tastes.  I can remember being in dark recesses of dungeons playing EQ and being very focused on my surroundings.  It's a kind of intensity that can really make a game exciting... and yes, it's the kind of thing that can also make a game suck.  When there are consequences for actions, it adds an element to gameplay.  Most people really don't like that element.  Some do. 

Making games to fit all playstyles is like making one size of pants.   You'll never make everyone happy.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #93 on: October 26, 2006, 08:59:49 AM

Why not make it voluntary? Turn on the option to lose your corpse if you need that to make the game more fun. Or, as I've suggested in the past, hook a car battery up to your balls and light 'em up every time you die. That'll sharpen your focus.
Nebu
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Reply #94 on: October 26, 2006, 09:07:10 AM

Why not make it voluntary? Turn on the option to lose your corpse if you need that to make the game more fun. Or, as I've suggested in the past, hook a car battery up to your balls and light 'em up every time you die. That'll sharpen your focus.

I think it has something to do with the whole "level playing field" concept that people are yammering about in the RMT thread. 

Don't like XP debt?  Easy solution: Don't play games with it. 

The implementation is everything.  DAoC has such a poorly implemented debt system that a large portion of the playerbase uses death as a means to travel.  If used in a method of risk/reward, I think it can be a valuable tool.  Example: instances with valuable loot could be very challenging with a high cost for failure.  Helps artificially increase the value of the loot while also giving an incentive for people to play well.  I'm all for rewarding good play and giving a carrot to others to improve their play.  They could also opt out of these instances should they not like the risk/reward. I'd also much rather that the best items require more skill than more people/more time to obtain.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 09:14:43 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
rk47
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Reply #95 on: October 26, 2006, 06:48:53 PM

I'm never too frustrated with the XP debt in this game, but I think it has something to do with the archetype we all play. I heard stuff about youir blasters that I find true with my experience trying to get him to level 10 the first time. I had 30 MM and boy he levelled so much easier than my blaster and died less often once I learn how to handle groups and gain access to my paralyzing poison things are easier to beat.

I'm guessing Blasters actually need to team up to get a better PVE experience at lower level...I can hardly find a singular (ungrouped) mobs at lowbie zones in CoH compared to CoV. The hollows mission especially is harsh for my Lv 6 Blaster I end up just giving up and going back to my MM since my timezone prevents me from getting much party.  Heartbreak


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Glazius
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Reply #96 on: October 27, 2006, 07:07:42 AM

I'm guessing Blasters actually need to team up to get a better PVE experience at lower level...I can hardly find a singular (ungrouped) mobs at lowbie zones in CoH compared to CoV. The hollows mission especially is harsh for my Lv 6 Blaster I end up just giving up and going back to my MM since my timezone prevents me from getting much party.  Heartbreak
PROTIP: Leave the Hollows. Go back to regular missions. Every 6-10 contact has at least one mission with at least one nifty wrinkle.

Less pro tip: I think my brain started running out my ears when Sky talked about being timid with his blaster. Timid! My fire/elec is up to 43 or so and I think I was only timid while fighting Vahz abominations. Everything else is just aim-buildup-AOE-AOE-cleanupcleanupcleanup done. Aid Self is a huge help there, though. Lately I've been fighting Malta and Carnies and the strategy there is basically the same except I open with Shocking Grasp - or in extreme cases detonate a Bonfire and then hammer mobs while they're being repeatedly exploded into the geometry.

--GF
Sky
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Reply #97 on: October 27, 2006, 07:25:24 AM

I'm an energy/energy blaster. Huge single-target nukes and no crowd control. If I didn't rely hugely on fly/hover, I don't know how I'd even have made it to 26.
geldonyetich
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Reply #98 on: October 27, 2006, 08:17:35 AM

Energy/Energy Blasters aren't totally berift of crowd control, but what they've got isn't what's traditionally considered as such.  Instead of Immobilization or Hold, they've got Knockback and Disorient.  Although to keep em' out of melee range hover is a lot more reliable, most Blasters don't get to disorient bosses.

Sky
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Reply #99 on: October 27, 2006, 08:38:50 AM

Yep, Hover is essential, as is Fly to move between the various ranges of our powers. And the knockback punch is essential for combating other flyers, I wonder if Air Superiority is any good (doesn't it ground flyers?). The problem is CC on the minions.

My outdoor hunting was: buildup/aim/snipe a boss mob. Minions and Lts scatter to find a path to me. Fly in to long range powers, hover and cut loose. Fly in to medium range powers, hover and cut loose. Fly back out to long range again. Repeat, retreating to snipe range when minions/lts come back and attack. It was tedious as hell. And doesn't work at all indoors.

Main problem is single target attacks without any solid defenses. I was playing the blaster last weekend for a bit and it was funny looking how I had slotted everything. Hover was slotted up for defense big time. Basically, while I'm taking down the big guy, I'm getting pounded hard by everyone else.
geldonyetich
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Reply #100 on: October 27, 2006, 08:47:00 AM

A tactic I normally use in that situation is to pop a couple defensive inspirations (and I realize it isn't fair to assume you'll always have a couple defensive inspirations around), hit buildup, and Energy Torrent/Explosive Blast the entire group.  Chances are most of the minions will be dead at this point, and if not perhaps another Energy Torrent will do te job.  Then hit the boss (hopefully there's only one) with Energy Punch, Bone Smasher, Stun - basically, attempting to layer two Disorient effects on it so it's unable to attack, since bosses do way more damage than a minion.  Focus fire on the boss while trying to catch the minions in as much AOE as possible.  Chances are everything'll be dead before those defensive inspirations wear off.

Without a couple of defensive inspirations?  Hmm, good question.  I certainly wouldn't try to tackle more than a small sized group (3 minions or 1 minion/lt) unless I had somebody to distract them.

Llava
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Reply #101 on: October 27, 2006, 08:48:29 AM

Open up with Explosive Blast (or whatever the minor damage AE knockback is).

Knock them into a corner if you can, against a wall if it's available.  If neither are available, this strategy is a pain.

Single target nuke what you can before they get up.  Hit Energy Torrent, knock 'em on their asses again. Keep single target nuking what you can.  By the time they're up again, you should be in decent shape to take out the rest without a problem.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Sky
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Reply #102 on: October 27, 2006, 09:02:24 AM

I've done that kind of stuff (not sure I have explosive blast). It makes for some downtime and I'm just not that good at playing a blaster, I guess. I die alot. I'm much happier playing the MM, though I haven't hit the 20s, where I started having trouble with the blaster.
Llava
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Reply #103 on: October 27, 2006, 09:51:39 AM

My Mastermind never got hard to play.  Sometimes a little dull, but never difficult.  I just played him again last night for the first time in a while (been focusing on my Brute) and I forgot how many tools he has.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #104 on: October 27, 2006, 11:47:53 AM

I like fun more than difficult. I even play Gothic 2 in god mode, just to check out the story and not worry about dying. I'm getting old, I guess. I'm more interested in Ghost Widow's origin mission than making sure I set up my acid mortar for every fight.
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