So. What's BioWare's MMO?

[Nevermore]

If they're set on doing a fantasy MMO, I'd much rather see them do something like White Wolf's Exalted instead of yet another D&D/Tolkien inspired yawner.

[Stormwaltz]

I think the bigger Achilles heel in my reasoning is the seperation between Austin and Edmonton.  How much of this project is being done by old hands in BioWare, and how much is the work of the MMOG veteran hired guns?

I answered this for HRose a couple weeks ago.

[SurfD]

If they're set on doing a fantasy MMO, I'd much rather see them do something like White Wolf's Exalted instead of yet another D&D/Tolkien inspired yawner.

Planescape: The MMO?

[DataGod]

Why its based on the Michael Moorecock world of course....

[UnSub]

Can't believe I missed something this obvious - Bioware's next MMOG will be based on Buffy.

It's got huge geek cred as an IP.

It's got a big fanbase.

There are plenty of bad guys for it.

And in order to be powerful, all you have to do is roll up a female character, which 90% of male players do for other reasons currently anyway.

Mystery solved.

[Engels]

Buffy has geek cred? I thought it was the same crowd that watched "Friends".

[UnSub]

Buffy has geek cred? I thought it was the same crowd that watched "Friends".

... and right there is your cross-over potential. Who wouldn't sign up to a MMOG to take a swing at Ross?

[Cyrrex]

I might be way wrong, but I would have thought that Buffy had a fairly narrow audience that it appealed to, and almost zero international appeal whatsoever.  If so, those are pretty bad ingredients to mix into your MMO soup.

To contradict myself, however...someone mentioned a Diskworld based MMO.  Are we talking about Terry Pratchett's world?  If so, sign me the fuck up.

[schild]

Buffy would be a wreck.

How many fucking times do I have to say it?

It doesn't matter HOW MANY GEEKS watch something or love something. You need to have crossover into the gaming world. Not all geeks are gamers. Not all gamers are geeks. And as shown by the top ten game sales every single year (Madden, Madden, NCAA, Madden, Madden, Some Disney Movie, Madden, Final Fantasy), Buffy would fail like a motherfucker.

You need something that has instant appeal to gamers at large and can REACH OUT. Like WoW. Not something that has to reach in - like Star Wars Galaxies.

To become popular by word of mouth, you need to have a man on the inside, not some fucker outside yelling about things he doesn't understand.

Edit: Granted, Buffy might work as an MMORPG. Only because nothing interesting happened in the series and nothing interesting happens in most MMOGs. And I mean work, not "Be Popular." And when I say nothing interesting happens in MMOGs, I don't mean it as a blanket statement. I mean it as - Developers don't do Neat Shit Often. Most of the Neat Shit comes from the players. Particularly Eve Players. I reckon it's more fun to read the blogs of Eve players than it is to play the game. Actually, I know, fo'sho. I also know it's more fun to talk about Buffy than it is to watch it. Go figure.

[Rasix]

Oi! Quite sniping Buffy (you can snipe the last 2 seasons.. ok.. 3).  Uhh yah, that'd be a horrible IP for a MMO.  The manginas would love it though.. no real reason to be a dude. Unless you want to read books.

[Rithrin]

Anyone ever consider an Earthsea MMO?

But still, there are thousands upon thousands of decent fantasy/sci-fi book/novel series with IP that could be taken upon and adapted to games. If anyone's read The Magic of Recluse series, there's enough ideas in there to back up a huge world with unique societies, a large span of abilities and skills (or classes if you want to do that), huge portions of the book dedicated to how the economics of the world work (for crafting, trading, etc), politics, wars, even just simple exploration, all sorts of things.

Is it really a requirement that the IP have huge cred to begin with? Isn't it possible that a large company could pick up an almost unheard of (yet still of good quality) IP and make it big?

[schild]

Is it really a requirement that the IP have huge cred to begin with? Isn't it possible that a large company could pick up an almost unheard of (yet still of good quality) IP and make it big?

Consider the cost of getting the IP, making an MMOG and marketing it. You want to pick IP with huge gamer cred so the IP can break away from the gamer arena. Breaking into the gamer arena is nearly as hard as breaking into the actual industry and getting a job.

Or you could just be Nintendo, make a Pokemon MMOG, have Chunsoft do the dungeon crawling part, have Nintendo do the regular Pokemon PVP battle shit, and call it a day while the rest of the industry stands around with a thumb up its collective ass. Speaking of, another interview is going up Monday.

[Morat20]

Anyone ever consider an Earthsea MMO?

But still, there are thousands upon thousands of decent fantasy/sci-fi book/novel series with IP that could be taken upon and adapted to games. If anyone's read The Magic of Recluse series, there's enough ideas in there to back up a huge world with unique societies, a large span of abilities and skills (or classes if you want to do that), huge portions of the book dedicated to how the economics of the world work (for crafting, trading, etc), politics, wars, even just simple exploration, all sorts of things.

Is it really a requirement that the IP have huge cred to begin with? Isn't it possible that a large company could pick up an almost unheard of (yet still of good quality) IP and make it big?

I mentioned Green's Deathstalker series as a joke, but in all honesty it might make a decent IP for a game. For one, it's small enough an IP that you wouldn't be building it for "Simon Green fans" -- you'd be just mining it for world-details, and the world there would be fairly compatable with Diku-style MMORPGS. Which is what purchased IP should be for -- providing some background, world, or concept that you can hang MMORPG mechanics on.

You don't want your lore/IP/history/whatever hemming in game design, and you don't want your IP/Lore/whatever to be so freakin' popular that you're going to turn off tons of potential players because you have to restrict access to concepts that are popular in the IP, but translate poorly to an MMORPG experience. (See: Jedi).

So I consider Deathstalker to be decent IP for a MUD. It's space opera, and space opera is often nothing but fantasy with a sci-fi wrapper. Which means your mechanics can be Diku-varient, but you've already got a decent background and world defined.

[brian]

You need something that has instant appeal to gamers at large and can REACH OUT. Like WoW. Not something that has to reach in - like Star Wars Galaxies.

To become popular by word of mouth, you need to have a man on the inside, not some fucker outside yelling about things he doesn't understand.

Ok, color me lost here.  How do you define "gamer cred"?  Are you saying that an IP must be a game, and nothing else, ever?  Are you seriously suggesting that after nearly two decades of x-wing and tie-fighter flight sims, Rebel Assaults, KotOR, and now Lego games that Star Wars doesn't have gamer cred? 

I’m probably misunderstanding you.  I mean, I know the shtick here at f13 is bitter cynicism, but this strikes me a bit much like saying fantasy novels  and comic books can never be translated into decent, popular movies. 

- Brian

[Soln]

a calm word before anything -- there are IP's that are worldly and IP's that lend themselves well and directly to games.  SW sure is a good game IP, if it's one aspect of SW that's taken (like the civil war combat).  Harry Potter would not.  Buffy might not if there was a lot of relationship and hugging required.  A gamer might looking at those IP's which has a lot of competitive drama and prefer those over ones that require more narration, back story or development what-not.

[brian]

a calm word before anything -- there are IP's that are worldly and IP's that lend themselves well and directly to games.  SW sure is a good game IP, if it's one aspect of SW that's taken (like the civil war combat).  Harry Potter would not.  Buffy might not if there was a lot of relationship and hugging required.  A gamer might looking at those IP's which has a lot of competitive drama and prefer those over ones that require more narration, back story or development what-not.

Different IPs work in different sorts of games.  Harry Potter would make a horrible MMORPG, but might be fun as a MUSH, or something more along the lines of Skotos' Castle Marach.  Highlander would make a horrible MMORPG, but it would make an awesome tag-like game.  You'd start with a handful hundred players per server, every week or so the terrain and available weapons would update to a new period in history, and you'd play until only one player was left alive, with rankings posted for how long each player was able to survive, and how many enemies they'd managed to kill.  New games would be starting every day, so you could jump right back in after you died.  Not a MMORPG as we know it, but it could be fun. 

Buffy would be an interesting challenge.  The key would be to play with the pull between the daylight world of classes and jobs, and the nighttime world of slaying.  To capture the feel of the show, it would probably look like the Sims with dungeons.  I'm not sure that's two great tastes that taste great together.  But I never tried the Sims online, so I'm speaking, as usual, from a position of ignorance.

I think Star Wars as an IP isn't a death sentence to a MMOG.  I agree that it did have some serious handicaps to overcome.  I think some of those handicaps are going to continue to bedevil the industry, especially when it comes to translating popular IPs.  One of the biggies is MMOG combat being about as swashbuckling as sumo.  But CoH seems to have done pretty well, mostly by keeping true to the look and feel of their theme, and avoiding MMOG tropes that didn't fit, such as looting money off the bodies of defeated mobs, and playing up those that reinforced the theme, like flashy powers and costumes, sidekicks, and cool opponents.

- Brian 

[geldonyetich]

Grimwell had spotted signs of a potential Bioware-made Star Wars MMORPG awhile back, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was that.  The reason they've not yet announced it would probably have a lot to do with it being tentative at this time, in addition to securing the IP.  I imagine that SOE'd be pulling as much contractual strings as possible to hinder Lucasarts in this regard.   Thus, a Bioware-made SWG MMORPG is still not a sure thing.

If a developer learns only one thing from SWG, it should be this: "Intellectual Property places certain expectations of the type of game that will be developed."

The Star Wars movies set up an expectation of an action-packed exciting experience interspursed with brief periods of romance and wonder.  Star Wars Galaxies, a game focused on the day-to-day boring lives of less exciting Star Wars inhabitants, couldn't hope to meet those expectations.  Knights of the Old Republic, however, delivered exactly was was needed.

But, per usual, I'm probably not saying anything that surprises anyone here.

[Righ]

Thanks for correcting him Rasix, saved me some typing. Righ, if you wish to hate on Whedon more power to you, but at least get your facts straight.

Facts? There are no facts here, just a bunch of wibbling from fanboys. None of us know if Wheldon's a shit to work with, or if he has unreasonable demands, or why Fox does what it does with shows. I was just putting a scenario out there, which is every bit as enlightened as your cough facts. Sci-Fi showed Dr Who out of sequence and at irregular slot. Perhaps they were trying to kill its audience. Fucking tin foil wearing loonies.

[Signe]

Buffy, Angel, Veronica Mars, Gilmore Girls, OC, Smallville, etc... even though they're different subjects all seem kind of similar-ish to me.  They all seem to be shows geared towards teens and I lose interest after a while.  Sometimes I'll put one on and wonder, "why don't I watch this show more often?"  Half way through the episode, however, I always remembery why....  These days I can almost always tell from the previews, too, which shows will fall into the "teen" catagory.

[Rasix]

Don't really think they're geared for "teens", maybe OC out of that bunch is specifically geared for teens. It's this generation's "90210". It needs more 30 year olds pretending they're 16 or it'll never measure up. The others of course contain "teens".  Now.. I used to watch "Dawson's Creek".. that was a show with teens geared for teens.  But yah.. I was hooked so I kind of had to keep watching the car wreck.

Tag team posting isn't fair.  That last post could have been written by Righ. Maybe Signe and Righ are one person! /tinfoil_hat

Facts? There are no facts here, just a bunch of wibbling from fanboys. None of us know if Wheldon's a shit to work with, or if he has unreasonable demands, or why Fox does what it does with shows. I was just putting a scenario out there, which is every bit as enlightened as your cough facts. Sci-Fi showed Dr Who out of sequence and at irregular slot. Perhaps they were trying to kill its audience. Fucking tin foil wearing loonies.

Of course we don't know if Whedon's himself is to blame for his latest show getting a quick pull.  Even though Angel and Buffy were longer runs, both seemed to always on the crux of cancellation.  His shows have rabid fan bases but that doesn't translate into good ratings.  And his shows cost money.  Firefly couldn't have been cheap to make.   His shows develop slowly and often take years to resolve story arcs or to the pull the trigger on a romantic angle. 

Another Joss Whedon show we'll likely not see on any form of network television for the above reasons.  They take a while to get going and when they're on a network like Fox, that shits itself unless ratings are immediate and huge, they don't have a prayer.  Only hope for another Whedon series would be on a network like Sci-Fi, TNT, USA or FX.  Battlestar's been in the timeslot of death for two whole seasons and seems not be going anyway soon. 

[Bunk]

Thanks for correcting him Rasix, saved me some typing. Righ, if you wish to hate on Whedon more power to you, but at least get your facts straight.

Facts? There are no facts here, just a bunch of wibbling from fanboys. None of us know if Wheldon's a shit to work with, or if he has unreasonable demands, or why Fox does what it does with shows. I was just putting a scenario out there, which is every bit as enlightened as your cough facts. Sci-Fi showed Dr Who out of sequence and at irregular slot. Perhaps they were trying to kill its audience. Fucking tin foil wearing loonies.

Hey, call it fanboi all you like Righ, but Firefly was not exactly given a fair shake by Fox. They showed 11 out of 14 episodes. The order was mixed up, including playing the like 4th episode first and playing the pilot last (which explained the whole dam setting and universe). It was on Friday nights, which I don't give a dam if X-Files did well in it, is a shitty ass timeslot for a show aimed at a 20 - 30 year old crowd.

It received almost zero hype or advertising, and they made no real effort to pull in the Buffy/Angel fanbase. Hell, I was a regular Buffy/Angel watcher at the time, and I didn't even know the series had made it to tv until a year after it was cancelled.

Oh, and on topic: KotoR would be the perfect setting for a Star Wars MMoG. Thing is though, what made Knights work was Bioware's outstanding writing and characters. Doesn't matter what ip they use, they need to capture that polished story feel.

[Righ]

The most likely explanation for Fox (which is pronounced faux) network behaving the way it does is gross incompetence, which is pandemic to life but seems to be accentuated by that network probably because they pay less or something. If you don't want your show bollocksed up by being shown out of sequence and whatnot, make every episode largely independent from the others, because sequencing messes have been made of just about every show on every network.

[damijin]

this thread was about uh...

biodome?

[Bunk]

The most likely explanation for Fox (which is pronounced faux) network behaving the way it does is gross incompetence, which is pandemic to life but seems to be accentuated by that network probably because they pay less or something. If you don't want your show bollocksed up by being shown out of sequence and whatnot, make every episode largely independent from the others, because sequencing messes have been made of just about every show on every network.

No offense Righ, but we were talking about an action/drama with an overarching storylie. That's the type of show Whedon writes, and is why he has a loyal fanbase.

Picture watching BSG out of order. Yea, that would have worked well, Shaon Valeri's story would have made perfect sense... 

All I can say is that I'm thankful for the growth of non-network channels that will actually give shows like BSG or Blade:the Series somewhere to thrive.

[HaemishM]

Planetary would probably be the perfect Fox show, since it's similar in tone to Firefly and yet all the issues/episodes are self-contained stories but with an overarching plot.

[stray]

It was on Friday nights, which I don't give a dam if X-Files did well in it, is a shitty ass timeslot for a show aimed at a 20 - 30 year old crowd.

X-Files was on Sunday nights. It's the best timeslot there is.

Buffy mmo aside (wtf), Firefly did get a bad deal. Anyone who gets the Friday night slot is on it's way out before it really even begins (X-Files creator Chris Carter's show Harsh Realm got it, the Tick got it, etc). Friday night slots are virtually synonymous with "canceled".

[Signe]

I don't know.  Maybe "family" show is more appropriate instead of teen.  I suppose when I see a show where the lead is a teen and the lead teen is surrounded by a bunch of other teens, it strikes me as being a show that probably had a teen audience in mind.  I looked up the demographics and target audience for some of those shows and it said "18 - 34" in nearly every case.  They also mentioned shows that "everyone in the family can be in the same room" to watch.  I enjoyed the first season or so of Smallville, liked Angel a bit better than Buffy but both were okay, didn't like the others much.   I'm not dissing the shows or those who enjoy them at all.  I never lasted til the end of the season with any of them... they all seemed to deteriorate towards the end.  The ones I watched were slick looking and entertaining for the most part, but sophisticated?  Nah.  As an aside, Righ and I both really enjoyed Firefly.  We were rather disappointed that it was cancelled so soon.

I'm not sure why you made the "Maybe Signe and Righ are one person!" crack, Ras, but I'm taking it as a compliment.  Righ's the brain in the family by a longshot.  I'm mostly fluff.

[Rasix]

I'm not sure why you made the "Maybe Signe and Righ are one person!" crack, Ras, but I'm taking it as a compliment.  Righ's the brain in the family by a longshot.  I'm mostly fluff.

In situations where you agree, maybe not in the same fashion, but agree; you occasionally post consecutively.  I was just trying for some levity, but I'd definately take it as a compliment.

As for the derail gripes.. common.. this a thread dedicated to making random guesses on Bioware's new MMO we're all going to buy. I think we've ran out of reasonable guesses to the IP, but if you want to keep guessing: I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. 

[Righ]

No offense Righ, but we were talking about an action/drama with an overarching storylie. That's the type of show Whedon writes, and is why he has a loyal fanbase.

None taken. In that regard, he's like a comic author, and the networks to support his work don't exist yet. The closest that one could come is something like the somewhat arty HBO, which is very good a scheduling, though has failed a few shows itself for other reasons. Its possibly the case that a new type of marketing arrangement will need to exist in order to better support true episodic content, where the sell-through precedes the broadcast.

[Morat20]

No offense Righ, but we were talking about an action/drama with an overarching storylie. That's the type of show Whedon writes, and is why he has a loyal fanbase.

None taken. In that regard, he's like a comic author, and the networks to support his work don't exist yet. The closest that one could come is something like the somewhat arty HBO, which is very good a scheduling, though has failed a few shows itself for other reasons. Its possibly the case that a new type of marketing arrangement will need to exist in order to better support true episodic content, where the sell-through precedes the broadcast.

The Sci-Fi network, if you can get the greedy bastards to shell out, is pretty good for it. They don't dick with their premium shows. On the other hand, they make the bulk of their money on the cheap-ass crappy films they make and show on Saturdays. Their good Sci-Fi is just advertising and some credibility.

[Signe]

 Sometimes we talk about you.  Sometimes we say the most OUTRAGEOUS things about you!  Sometimes you lot make us LAUGH OUT LOUD!   

Righ pointed out to me that sometimes we read and chat and then post so I suppose it's not uncommon that we post close to each other.  One of the reasons, I think, that we've been married so long is that we agree on so much.  Believe it or not, we've never had a real argument.  I'm hoping we'll have one for our 12th anniversary in December. 

Talking about Sci Fi Channel... I've been watching Eureka based on reccomendations here, mostly Haemish... and I've been enjoying it.  I expect it'll be cancelled any minute, now.   :-(

[Calantus]

All this talk of cancellations and messups, I don't think I've ever heard of this kind of stuff here in Aus. Of course, most of our shows have been running for a season or 2 somewhere else in the world first and when Aus studios make shows they tend to make ones they KNOW will work because they only make so many and the "stars" only stretch so far and should not be wasted. But still. :P

[Kail]

Oh, and on topic: KotoR would be the perfect setting for a Star Wars MMOG. Thing is though, what made Knights work was Bioware's outstanding writing and characters. Doesn't matter what ip they use, they need to capture that polished story feel.

That would be the major reason I wouldn't care about a KotOR MMO.  Bioware writes interesting characters, but in KotOR Online, I'm going to have to share the world with guys named "xXx-LukeJr-xXx" and "Yodapenis", and I really, really doubt they can magically make the random jackasses I group with into compelling, identifiable characters.  And in terms of storyline, we're still stuck with the same problem we've had for years: stories in which nothing happens to the world are boring, and stories which change the world (like the old KotOR games, for example) can't be repeated (and therefore tend not to work in MMOs).

So what's left?  The setting?  There's almost nothing defined.  You've got some guys with laser guns and some guys with laser swords.  There are organizations called "The Republic" and "The Sith" about which virtually nothing is known (save that one is "good" and one is "eeeeeeevil").  The Jedi have been almost erased.  For the setting of KotOR, Bioware took the bare bones of the Star Wars license and ripped everything else out so they could write their own stories without having to work out why Luke wasn't jumping in to save the day every few minutes.  Without those stories, all you've got left is the bare bones again.  I'm not saying they can't turn it into an interesting setting, but why would it be inherently more interesting than any other?  It's just generic sci-fi with laser swords (and a stronger brand name, but why would we get excited about that?).

The mechanics in KotOR are, in my opinion, not the strong point of the game, but it would probably be easier to translate them into an MMO format than it would be to write some compelling MMO narrative or something.

I'm not saying that KotOR would be a BAD setting, I just don't see why it would be inherently better than anything else.  It would probably make more money than NoName Sci-Fi MMO #50, but aside from that, I don't see why it would be something I'd get excited about.  Bioware generally makes fun games, but I have trouble seeing how the stuff they're best known for (stories, characters, etc.) would be carried over into an MMO.

P.S. Your spell checker includes "Yodapenis" but not "Bioware"?

[Trippy]

It was on Friday nights, which I don't give a dam if X-Files did well in it, is a shitty ass timeslot for a show aimed at a 20 - 30 year old crowd.

X-Files was on Sunday nights. It's the best timeslot there is.

X-Files started on Friday nights. It didn't do particularly well ratings wise but it did well enough to survive and eventually get moved to Sunday's (starting the 4th season I believe) where it turned into a big hit. Also Thursday's is the best night for television at least in terms on how much advertising revenue they rake in. It's no coincidence that the most watched regular series shows in recent history have been on Thursday's (ER, CSI, etc.).

[Calantus]

The thing about IPs is that they cost money. In some cases, a lot of money. If you aren't getting a whole lot of extra pull to your game based on the IP then you're just wasting your money. There's a lot of IPs where they would work in a MMO, and might even be advantageous in the fact that you don't have to write your own background lore and it might turn a few more heads than otherwise. But are they likely to be cost effective? A lot of them just aren't.