Expansion Talents and Spells Released

[pants]

can you imagine facing a 0.8 speed pet in PvP? As a caster?

I'm going heavy BM too - its always been a good levelling spec anyway, and now it is very useful PvP as well.  Brokentooth (speed 1.0) * 20% serpent speed * 30% frenzy = 0.56 attack speed (if Ive got my sums right).  Add in bestial wrath and my ol' cat is going to be eating clothies for breakfast.

[Morat20]

can you imagine facing a 0.8 speed pet in PvP? As a caster?

I'm going heavy BM too - its always been a good levelling spec anyway, and now it is very useful PvP as well.  Brokentooth (speed 1.0) * 20% serpent speed * 30% frenzy = 0.56 attack speed (if Ive got my sums right).  Add in bestial wrath and my ol' cat is going to be eating clothies for breakfast.

Not to mention the 100% focus regen talent, and the MM talent that regens 50 (go for the throat?) focus each time the hunter crits (and we'll crit more now). Even my 1.5 speed cat (first pet, i'm keeping it!) with serpent speed, frenzy, and go for the throat isn't going to run out of focus. Ever. Constant spamming of claw and bite and whatever new comes down the pipe.

[Velorath]

With the right pet -- even if the pet talents are all BS -- we're talking boosts to you AND your pet, and minor party buffs. What about the Misdirection spell? Yes, indeed, let me blow my long cool-downs, drop a ton of burst DPS, and dump all the threat on the tank. He'll thank me for it.

Yeah, I really like the sound of Misdirection.  Seems like a good way to make Hunters more useful in raids.

Edit:

1. Traps are now on a 30 sec cooldown, but can be used in combat (you no longer need to feign/trap).

That's also a pretty big change, making Freezing Trap a much more viable means of crowd control.  Won't that make Scatter Shot fairly pointless though?

[Fordel]

You can never have too many escape tools, not that it would be much differen't from now really. Only difference would be unhitching the trap from FD.

[SurfD]

as a mage, i get the feeling that no matter what i do, unless i somehow manage to get the total drop on ANY spec of hunter, I might as well just stand there and let him kill me so as to get the incoming death over that much faster.  I mean, hell, I stand almost no chance against hunters now, and when BC goes live, they are going to be totally broken.  GG driveby frost trap IN combat, without even needing to FD

Not to mention the half a dozen ways that a hunter can cockblock and kill me without me ever getting a shot in.

- Aimedshot, multishot, driveby frost trap, readiness, repeat.
- Aimedshot, multishot, steady shot, wevrensting,  repeat
- Aimedshot, multishot, scattershot, steady shot, driveby frost trap, repeat
and thats just a couple of them.

People think locks and EZcoil are broken, locks got nothing on hunters.

And lets not forget the lucky ones who can Aimedshot, multishot, zg trinket, multishot, Readiness, multishot, for mowing down clustered clothies.

[Merusk]

If you see the hunter, at least you've got a better chance to close on him now.  Aimedshot is being upped to a 3.5s cast time.   Yeah it sucks if they get the drop on you, but that's the case with almost any class. 

Later on in that thread they start talking about itemization.  It sounds like there aren't going to be as many slow bows with a high damage range out there anymore, but they are upping the DPS on bows in general (probably by lowering shot times).   They're trying very hard to break the "10 second cycle" but still give hunters good DPS just by doing autoshoot w/ specials.   I hope they give us bigger quivers.

- Added:  Dev comment that Arcane Shot's scaling bonus is 20% of your RAP tacked-on.

[Nevermore]

5. Other note: Wyvern Sting may now be used in combat.

Wait, so Wyvern Sting will be a 12 second sleep usable in combat that works against everything?

[Ironwood]

The more I read, the more terrified I get.

Where's the ability to strap tactical nukes to the back of your pets ?

 

[Xanthippe]

5. Other note: Wyvern Sting may now be used in combat.

Wait, so Wyvern Sting will be a 12 second sleep usable in combat that works against everything?

Wyvern Sting is currently completely useless.  Usable in combat - I take that to mean that a hunter can be in combat and get off a shot.  Further damage to the target will wake the target.  Which means it will be of limited usefulness in pvp but nicely useful in pve. 

Or am I misunderstanding it?

[Phred]

I know why Hawk's Eye was moved -- that extra six yards was pretty much part of any build, and it meant that Hunters were generally outside the AoE of any boss. They made it more expensive to have.

Not true. Unless they reduce aoe's in the expansion back down to 40 yard range they've all been 75 since BWL. Our guild hunters were talking about this in channel last night and the concensus was most of us just had it because it was there. Probably won't take it in BC unless they change a.e. range back again.

[Phred]

Lead Dev Reply about the Hunter Changes

Yes, there are several notable changes.

1. Traps are now on a 30 sec cooldown, but can be used in combat (you no longer need to feign/trap).

.

Can't wait to shove this in the face of all those who claimed feign/trap was an exploit. This will make life in PVE so much easier. No more cursing out resists to feign while trying to drop snare traps to help kiters on some events.

[Morfiend]

The more I read, the more terrified I get.

Where's the ability to strap tactical nukes to the back of your pets ?

 

I think its near the top of the BM tree.

I thought we all knew this was coming. The last class to get talents always gets the really badass ones. I dont quite get it though, they just got done nerfing hunters down to the level of everyone else, and they have once again given them a bunch of overpowered shit. The only good thing is, they had better enjoy it while it lasts, cause they will get the nerf stick a few times.

[Morat20]

I'm pretty sure that some of these things will be changed, but I don't think it's as overpowered as it looks. The mages -- who are understandably pissing themselves over this -- are used to an aimed-multi-auto crit situation.

But bear in mind -- you get crit resistance in TBC. Aimed is moving to a 3.5s cast (a big difference -- it's an opener now) and tied to the auto-shot timer. It's going to be steady-multi-aimed, which won't do as much damage but has a chance of dazing you. Everyone's going to be more protected from crits now because of resiliance. Also bear in mind that hunter AP in generally just got halved. They're supposed to change itemization to reflect this, so paper DPS should remain steady.

Traps are now a 1.5 second cast (if I recall correctly), which means it's harder to drop traps in combat to get range.

All in all, yeah -- a BM or MM hunter is going to seriously hurt a mage. But that's always been the case. On the other hand, judging by the other talents I've seen -- warriors and rogues will do considerably better against hunters, as will warlocks. I do suggest that if you're a mage, you sheep the hunter. You don't want him triggering bestial wrath now. It makes him AND the pet unsheepable for 18 seconds.

I suspect that any nerfs will come out in itemization, not in talents.

Phredd: You and me both, man. I'm sick of that "it's an exploit" bullshit. If it was, it'd have been removed six months ago.

[Velorath]

I wouldn't say that Hunters are all that overpowered so much as I'd say that they have more viable specs now than just about any other class.  All 3 trees have a lot of good stuff in them and they didn't get any really crappy 41's like Rogue's Cloak of Shadows.

[Chenghiz]

Also bear in mind that hunter AP in generally just got halved. They're supposed to change itemization to reflect this, so paper DPS should remain steady.

Actually from what I hear the AP will probably be about the same for hunters, and maybe increasing slightly just because combining AP and agility is more efficient dps-wise in use of itemization points. Compared to the old Dragonstalker's Helm (27 agility) the new one has been reported to be 18 agility, 36 attack power. I think what might actually suffer more is crit chance.

[Morat20]

Also bear in mind that hunter AP in generally just got halved. They're supposed to change itemization to reflect this, so paper DPS should remain steady.

Actually from what I hear the AP will probably be about the same for hunters, and maybe increasing slightly just because combining AP and agility is more efficient dps-wise in use of itemization points. Compared to the old Dragonstalker's Helm (27 agility) the new one has been reported to be 18 agility, 36 attack power. I think what might actually suffer more is crit chance.

If I understand what they're doing correctly, they're moving away from the "Must Have Slow Powerful Weapon" and opening up to faster ones. People on the other end of our guns shouldn't be facing as many huge crits as before, because it looks like faster weapons (especially for MM specs) are going to be desireable. Our crits are going to be smaller just off itemization.

They've changed the crit numbers -- it's like 33 agility per crit now.

TBW really looks like an overpowered talent, but if you take it -- yeah, I'm going to rape anyone I see for 18 seconds, but....I'm highly noticeable when I do, it doesn't take much to get inside my range and force me to move (thus drastically lowering my DPS), and I'm trading a lot of steady DPS (Marksman tree) and armor and survivability (Survival) to do so.

I might not even take aimed shot -- it really doesn't seem worth it other than to get to mortal shots.

[Chenghiz]

If I understand what they're doing correctly, they're moving away from the "Must Have Slow Powerful Weapon" and opening up to faster ones.

They're doing this by using (set amount + (percentage of RAP)) instead of (weapon damage + set amount). Because slower weapons had higher topends, they were better for uber crits; I don't think this will change particularly. Getting a slow weapon will still get you bigger crits and thus be desirable for pvp.

People on the other end of our guns shouldn't be facing as many huge crits as before, because it looks like faster weapons (especially for MM specs) are going to be desireable. Our crits are going to be smaller just off itemization.

There aren't a lot of talents I'm seeing that would necessarily benefit from a faster speed weapon.

They've changed the crit numbers -- it's like 33 agility per crit now.

Yeah, my mental math was off. Looks like crit-from-agility will remain pretty constant, at least for the retroactive itemisation stat changes.

[Morfiend]

I honestly feel rogues got the worst of the Expansion situation. Crits are getting nerfed, Everyones hitpoints are getting buffed, and we got worthless 41 point talents. Well, maybe not totally worthless, but no min/maxer would take any of them except possibly Mutilate but right now its about on par with Backstab and its a 41 point talent. The 41 point combat talent is a horrible joke, and the 41 pint sub talent is not worth giving up cold blood for. I do like a lot of the new sub talents, for a hemo build, but other than that, not much is going for the rogues.

[trias_e]

1 point for 5% increased backstab/sinister strike/shiv damage seems like a pretty good PvE talent to me, but I might be mistaken.  Obviously not so much for PvP.

Cloak of Shadows seems pretty nice for PvP.  You'd basically just own mages, unless they were smart enough to wait to frost nova/poly you until after the 4 seconds wear off.  Garrote to start off for the silence, then after 3 seconds hit cloak of shadows.  There's 7 seconds of protection from a caster to start off a fight, which isn't shabby at all.  But yeah, maybe not as good as cold blood.  16 assassination/3 combat/42 subtlety looks just cool to me.

And deadly throw makes my mage cry.

[Morfiend]

Im going to go 21/0/40 i think. If I can handle with the loss of Improved Gouge.

[bhodi]

I think I'll just main switch out of rogue. The expansion doesn't give me anything new, it takes it away. I won't be able to have adrenaline rush anymore.

[SurfD]

Wait wait.  Where did you hear that traps had a 1.5 second cast time?  If that IS true, then I wont consider hunters to be nearly as broken in a PvP situation as they would be with in-combat insta traps.

[caladein]

I think I'll just main switch out of rogue. The expansion doesn't give me anything new, it takes it away. I won't be able to have adrenaline rush anymore.

Huh?

[Threash]

1 point for 5% increased backstab/sinister strike/shiv damage seems like a pretty good PvE talent to me, but I might be mistaken.  Obviously not so much for PvP.

The problem is its not really 5% damage for 1 point, you gotta take into account the 9 points you had to use to get there and none of those give you absolutely any dps whatsoever.  For Pve 4% more hps is fairly useless and any chance to resist fear just means the dragon comes and eats you.  In the end it turns out to be 10 points for a very slight dps increase, you are much better off putting those points into the other trees and not going above 31 on any of them.

[caladein]

Pardon my relative ignorance (haven't done the number crunching for Rogues, don't have many in our guild for some reason :P), but considering that Combat already was the top dog in terms of DPS, you'd think they would add some PvP/survivability stuff (like Fear resist/Stamina). Same way they've given a lot of the other class's "raiding off-builds" a few PvE DPS/support boosts. (Hell, Shadow Priests can restore Mana at 41pts, it's an honest cold day in hell.)

Not saying that Surprise Attacks is a min-maxer's wet dream, really, none of the 41pt talents are. I don't think a single build my guildmates and I have tossed around has seriously included a 41pt talent. The sole exception is Pain Suppression for my 42/19/0 Smiter build and that's it.

[Morfiend]

1 point for 5% increased backstab/sinister strike/shiv damage seems like a pretty good PvE talent to me, but I might be mistaken.  Obviously not so much for PvP.

Actually if you do the math, supprise attack doesnt add 5% more damage, its more like 1%. Well, for SS rogues anyway, for dagger it might be a tad more. Cause it doesnt add anything to white damage, also with the way attacks are calculated, not having attacks dodged can reduce DPS. I cant find the thread with the math right now, ill look more tomorrow.

[Ironwood]

To be honest, the top level talents may as well not be there for Rogues.  I've looked and looked and Ironwood will not be going above 31 points in any tree.  It's pretty pointless.

[Merusk]

To be honest, the top level talents may as well not be there for Rogues.  I've looked and looked and Ironwood will not be going above 31 points in any tree.  It's pretty pointless.

It's funny, I keep hearing that about certain talents, but it's from folks not considering the synergy of all classes together.  Those '% chance to daze' talents are taking the hardest beating, but everyone in BC now has at least one ability that does more damage if a target's dazed. 


Oh, and in another huge buff to Hunter raid utility, Improved Hunter's Mark will be changing so that the attack bonus will apply to Melee Attacks from all attackers as well as ranged attacks instead of just upping the RAP bonus.

[Ironwood]

Uh, yeah.  I'm gonna go 41 points in for other people.  Because all the posts I've ever written have told you how much of a people person I am.

 

[Merusk]

Uh, yeah.  I'm gonna go 41 points in for other people.  Because all the posts I've ever written have told you how much of a people person I am.

 

Let it be known that when I reference such things I am forever excluding Ironwood, because I know he hates people.  :-D

But yes, from a soloing/ ganking standpoint I can understand Rogues complaints.  From a grouping/ raiding standpoint no I just don't get it.

[Morat20]

Oh, and in another huge buff to Hunter raid utility, Improved Hunter's Mark will be changing so that the attack bonus will apply to Melee Attacks from all attackers as well as ranged attacks instead of just upping the RAP bonus.

So my mark adds AP to me AND my pet? Score. I'm sure the raid will be happy as well.

[caladein]

Druid Talents updated. They basically ported the Feral-ish talents in Balance to Resto, and combined Imp Healing Touch with Natural Weapons. Score. The one thing I'm not sure of is if the new 3pt Feral Instinct is still as effective as Rogue's 5pt Master of Deception. If it isn't... damn, but it's a very nice buff for the bear tanks. A mild nerf for PvP cats. Either way though... so much love .

There is great joy in my Feral Hybrid pants.

[Yoshimaru]

1.5sec cast time on traps? Damn, I'm going to miss insta-cast when Im being chased by a train of mobs/Allies.

[Driakos]

1.5sec cast time on traps? Damn, I'm going to miss insta-cast when Im being chased by a train of mobs/Allies.

As of a few minutes ago, they are still instant cast.

[Ratama]

Most important to its respective class/generally biggest change so far, imo: Crusader Strike, 41 pt Retribution talent for Paladins. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-paladin/talents.html

Does purely physical damage atm, and will not be subject to spell-lock after getting a heal or HoW CS'd.

Speaking as someone who wasn't going to buy BC until he saw this change; at least it's good business.