EQ2 to boost solo play - Test Update #27a

[geldonyetich]

FYI, you're able to use food and drink that's of the next tier.  In other words, if you're level 20-29, you can use food and drink marked level 30.   Yes, that's very odd considering the level readout on any other item means minimum required level to use it.

Also, do a search on the broker for "totem" and be amazed.

[Soln]

uh uh, still several seconds nearing half a minute with some DOTs.  Also the difference is between having a moneysink versus having a personal skill you can level and fund with things like cloth drops.  Minor beef.

[Sky]

I played solo last night.  Definitely need some time to readapt...

Heh. Solo in EQ2? Get used to fighting yard trash. They don't want solo players taking on named mobs or anything with cool drops. I could still find fun in the game, but that never stopped bothering me. Was EQ so broken in that regard? Iirc I was still getting jobbed by the stupid named orc quest mob outside Freeport at level 30.

Downtime. I'm not really interested in any game with downtime anymore. I don't have the time to waste sitting around doing nothing, no matter what that means to game integrity or balance or foo.

[Soln]

yeah the game blows solo.  But I just don't have the time or inclination to do anything else.  And group play has been "Wanna do ROV for 2hours till I get my drop??"  Uh no, I just want to level and finish these fucking green quests, which for some reason I can't solo...

It's funny cause there's lots of content, but the UI is sooo horrible (that quest logs blows hard as does inventory) that the game just feels way too clunky.  I'm still sort of playing waiting for an OMG! moment to break through.  Otherwise I'll just cancel once again.

SOE seems to be on the right track this year with improving the game, and these expansion do look cool (I bought Splitpaw which was Ok and KoS which I can't play yet),  but they just can make birdie.  Open the fucking game up already and sink the putt.  Lots of market research showing there's more so-called casual gamers out there.  Bizzare.  What is SOE worried about with old-world "Oh noes they ate through our content too fast and churned"?  Look around.  Maybe why Hartsmann doesn't post here anymore but is stuck on FoH boards.  Progression fever.

[geldonyetich]

I don't know where we're getting this "EQ2 can't be comfortably soloed" stuff.  I've been soloing 99% of the time in EQ2.  There are a few untackable scenarios, but not nearly as much as back at release.  (Of course, playing an Illusionist helps when those inadvertant adds are pulled.)

No, the main problem I'm having is actually getting in a group, and that's on the most populated PvE server.  It's not server population - EQ2's world is just too big.  The developers had the right idea when they started merging servers to try to increase the player density.

Another thing I noticed is that the quests don't sync with level very well.  I tried to complete all of my Antonica quests before moving to Thundering Steppes.  Still had a dozen or so left when I realized I was level 25 and thus half way through having outleveled the Steppes.

So, compare this to WoW where your quests dry up and you're dragged to areas of appropriate level, and you can see why this can make it difficult to sync up a proper amount of players in the right places to form groups most of the time.  Duos and trios are the more likely result in EQ2, and most of their "group" content is balanced towards that.

[Signe]

I hardly ever grouped and leveled pretty fast.  I disliked the game in beta and only subbed when I heard that they had made huge changes and that it was very soloable... they didn't lie.  I do, however, have the same problem with outleveling quests and areas.  The number of quests is HUGE and I just can't keep up, even when I make a concerted effort.  I can't even begin to count how many quests I've had to delete.  I have to say, though, it's a lot better than running out of quests.  I resub to EQ2 pretty often.  I'll probably do so for the next big thing they have.  Right now I'm not subbed to anything.  And I'm cranky, too.

[Nebu]

Have you played much past level 40 Signe?  I think you'd find the solo leveling is anything but fast when the quests you are relegated to solo are all green/gray. 

[Signe]

No, I haven't played much past 40... 44, I think is the highest.  I've started several chars but became a bit weary of doing the early quests so much.  I'm also one of those people who, when reaching the level cap, reckon I've won the game and quit.     Fortunately, I'm so casual that it rarely happens.

[tazelbain]

I don't know where we're getting this "EQ2 can't be comfortably soloed" stuff. 

But thats not the issue. Sky wants all content to be accessable to solo players.  EQ2 has some really great quests and areas. But most of it is not for solo players. It doesn't matter if you make it easier for people to solo if they are locked out of the compelling content.

[Sky]

Yeah. Solo Blackburrow when you can still get experience and good drops there. Good luck.

I don't mind a challenge, I did play original EQ to level 54 when the cap was 60 as a solo necromancer. Necros were a good solo class, but you had to be on your game to solo a lot of stuff, and there was still plenty that couldn't be solo'd.

But not because the mob had a magic 'group-only' flag that made it way too tough for solo players. It's like every dungeon is a plane raid or something. Garbage.

As Taz points out, I'm not saying you can't solo and level up. Both my characters are in the 30s, and I managed to get plenty of quests for each. It's just the omnipresent cockblock that keeps me away. I miss using creative tactics SOE apparently hated in EQ1, I also played a great feign-pulling monk.

[shiznitz]

No, I haven't played much past 40... 44, I think is the highest.  I've started several chars but became a bit weary of doing the early quests so much.  I'm also one of those people who, when reaching the level cap, reckon I've won the game and quit.     Fortunately, I'm so casual that it rarely happens.

My zerker is 57 and there are more solo quests (about a half dozen quest series) in Pillar of Flames to get me to 59 probably. If you set out to do every single soloable quest for your level range, you will green out many of them. When a quest goes green, I delete it unless it is part of an arc. I want to focus on blue and higher quests because those give AA points.  If I don't delete the green quests then I overstay my time in the same zone and get bored.

As far as pickup groups, I agree it can be hard to find an exp group in the zone you want to hunt in, but I have found that there are usually people looking for help on the Heritage Quests or other major quest lines like the carpet quest in SS. If you spam your level channel a bit, you will find people (or alts of people) who want to advance those.

I also find that if I announce "57 zerk forming a group for <insert instance here>" I tend to get some replies. Many people go LFG hoping someone else will organize a group instead of trying to organize it themselves. There are too many times when I have seen

"57 pally LFG"
"55 defiler LFG"
"58 troub LFG"

back to back in a chat channel. That is a 4-man group right there if you start inviting them.  You just have to have an answer to the inevitable "what are we hunting?" No one ever objects to instances in my experience.

[Soln]

it's like anything -- ya, you can solo in EQ2 the same way you can push a car up a hill on yer own.  Doesn't mean it's in any way fun.  Also, the insight of quest being incomplete per level or zone is bang on.  Not knowing anything I've been reasonably trying to complete "green" quests in  my (useless UI) log and its been a waste of time.  I don't understand the need to push players on to other zones, only to drag them back to the same damn places they banged their head against.  I'm 28 and I still don't have those plans from the Gnoll Captain which I think is lvl 14 quest. 

also, WTF was up with the design of having mobs that are 24^^^?  why not just have them another level or call them Heroic and be done with it? This way you have no real way of knowing if that green^^^ is actually soloable. 

EQ2 is frustrating because at every turn there's a throttle on your gameplay or a form or downtime to keep the fun from happening too fast.  And there seems to be so much content to get into.  Bizarre.

[Sky]

Pickup groups are only acceptable if everyone is already in the zone you want to play in. I have zero time to wait around for people to get their shit together.

Also...working with strangers isn't fun much of the time. And if the phone or doorbell rings, I'll leave immediately. I solo for good reasons, I don't like to bother people or be bothered by them in turn.

Luckily, with the amount of time I have to play games, single player games are filling the bill quite well. I think I'll play through Gothic II again and Gothic III should be out soon :)

[Strazos]

When I tried to play this again some time last year with my Brigand, I found that soloing stuff in EL did nothing for me. I soloed orange-con stuff for like, 2 hours, and couldn't notice a difference in my XP bar.

Also, they nerfed Brigand's high-damage Ruse ability, which I was very fond of previously.

[Nebu]

Pickup groups... ugh.  I think this may be the single phenomenon driving me away from mmogs.  I have yet to get into a pickup group where I felt like people knew what they were doing.  Thankfully most games now come with a /qtd function. 

[shiznitz]

Pickup groups are only acceptable if everyone is already in the zone you want to play in. I have zero time to wait around for people to get their shit together.

You are entitled to your impatience, I guess, but with the two recall spells available to most players 50+ (the home city one and the Maj Dul one) it takes maybe 5 minutes for 6 people to meet up from anywhere in the game world. During those 5 minutes, you can continue to solo whatever you were soloing.

edit: As I hit submit, I realized this is not the case for people meeting in KoS. KoS requires using the Nexus-like teleporters which requires some land travel. People in KoS can leave easily, but 6 people not in KoS will take 15 minutes to meet up in KoS.

[Sky]

It's not impatience, though I am impatient when it comes to sitting around waiting for people. It's about having a half hour at a time to play. Rather than being a flaw on my part, it's a feeling born out of respect for others, since I don't want someone to travel across the world just to sit for 20 minutes with me. It's not a huge deal, I just don't play mmo. But with the larger game world, I'd like to be able to solo in one more effectively and EQ2 and WoW don't want players doing that, unless you relegate yourself to being a second-class citizen.

I'll never subscribe to the idea that mmo means you must be forced to group to do the cool stuff. I guess I'm stuck with Oblivion and Gothic.

[shiznitz]

Clearly I misunderstood. I know I hate it when a group forms and someone leaves after 20 minutes, especially if that class was the tank or the healer.

[Strazos]

I can hardly think of any console/PC games that are worth playing for only a half hour...Counterstrike?

[HaemishM]

Unreal Tournament, most sports games on the console, hell, I've managed to have fun with the original Ghost Recon on the X-Box in half-hour chunks.

[Sky]

I can hardly think of any console/PC games that are worth playing for only a half hour...Counterstrike?

Yeah, tell me about it. It counts out most rpg and tbs stuff I love. I've been playing through Gothic 2 again and it's obnoxious trying to remember little quest bitlets, a lot of the time someone will just drop a verbal clue I'll totally forget (I just remembered one from last night...the bow thief dove off the docks...). I'm actually considering having a gaming notebook, something I haven't used since Daggerfall/Ultima 8 days.

[Sky]

I know I hate it when a group forms and someone leaves after 20 minutes, especially if that class was the tank or the healer.

Maybe they should have classes specifically denied grouping. You can play an overpowered necro or druid, but you can never group, though you can also take on group-only content. Then slap on an experience cap per diem to quash power gamers ala Siege Perilous.

[geldonyetich]

I think the problem with EQ2 is beyond class balance.  I'm more prone to blame the Quest in EverQuest and, specifically, how it's arranged in EQ2.  Players want to get those quests done, and in doing so they're obligated not to get tied down in a group that prevents the player from getting the quests done.  If they are, they'll outlevel the quests before completing them, thereby losing those rewards, and so they'll avoid grouping.  It's a commonly observed phenominon in World of Warcraft, but made significantly worse in EQ2 because there's way more quests.  Enough that even if I were to do nothing but solo quests (which I have been, pretty much), I'll still outlevel quests before getting them all done!

Bottom Line: Soloing is not only supported in EQ2, it actively punishes you for grouping by preventing you from completing quests before they're no longer as lucrative.

Sure, there are quests you can only complete in a group, but good luck finding the members to do those when everybody else is half way across norrath getting their own done.

[Soln]

I think the problem with EQ2 is beyond class balance.  I'm more prone to blame the Quest in EverQuest and, specifically, how it's arranged in EQ2.  Players want to get those quests done, and in doing so they're obligated not to get tied down in a group that prevents the player from getting the quests done.  If they are, they'll outlevel the quests before completing them, thereby losing those rewards, and so they'll avoid grouping.  It's a commonly observed phenominon in World of Warcraft, but made significantly worse in EQ2 because there's way more quests.  Enough that even if I were to do nothing but solo quests (which I have been, pretty much), I'll still outlevel quests before getting them all done!

Bottom Line: Soloing is not only supported in EQ2, it actively punishes you for grouping by preventing you from completing quests before they're no longer as lucrative.

Sure, there are quests you can only complete in a group, but good luck finding the members to do those when everybody else is half way across norrath getting their own done.

and what a piss off they're still there to haunt you in your quest log day after day.  Let's all haul ass back to Antonica to finish all those Green ^^^ quests in SH.  Right...

[geldonyetich]

I've been hitting the "delete quest" button a lot lately, targetting green quests specifically, but not without remorse.  Outside of extensive research outside of the game, how can I tell that some lower level quest that I deleted isn't a prerequisite in some higher level quest I really want to do?

[HaemishM]

The quests in EQ2 and really almost any MMOG today are not written or meant for groups. The context of them is completely wrong. Even the "get 50 friends and raid" quests are really written as if they are presented to one individual and oh yeah, you can have friends help you if you want to (though the gameplay mechanics require you to have friends). But there aren't really many quests that actively bring people together. There aren't two quests, given to two different people, that must be completed by both people but with different reasons for doing so.

For instance, you and your group of hobbits are going to meet Gandalf, and along the way Strider meets you in Bree and saves you from the wraiths. That kind of "accidental on purpose" questing doesn't exist, but it really should. That's where the lack of a human GM/storyteller hurts MMOG's.

[shiznitz]

I think the problem with EQ2 is beyond class balance.  I'm more prone to blame the Quest in EverQuest and, specifically, how it's arranged in EQ2.  Players want to get those quests done, and in doing so they're obligated not to get tied down in a group that prevents the player from getting the quests done.  If they are, they'll outlevel the quests before completing them, thereby losing those rewards, and so they'll avoid grouping.  It's a commonly observed phenominon in World of Warcraft, but made significantly worse in EQ2 because there's way more quests.  Enough that even if I were to do nothing but solo quests (which I have been, pretty much), I'll still outlevel quests before getting them all done!

Bottom Line: Soloing is not only supported in EQ2, it actively punishes you for grouping by preventing you from completing quests before they're no longer as lucrative.

Sure, there are quests you can only complete in a group, but good luck finding the members to do those when everybody else is half way across norrath getting their own done.

That is all true and well written except this part: "[EQ2] actively punishes you for grouping by preventing you from completing quests before they're no longer as lucrative."

There are quests that require groups. These requests have better loot rewards and better exp. Plus, you always get better exp and a better loot table (which you have to share, of course) in a group as long as you are fighting heroic mobs at or above the average level of the group. So, while anyone can make steady progress solo, grouping is better if you can get it. That can be a big "if" for people like Sky.

If all you do is solo in EQ2, unless you can make your own spells via tradeskilling, you are going to be challenged to have/afford any adept3s/master spells and any Legendary gear. In fact, you will be hard pressed to afford a full suit of Mastercrafted gear before reaching the middle of the appropriate tier. Soloing will provide lots of harvesting opportunities and lots of Treasured quest rewards and adept1 spells, but having only that will severely limit how efficient'y you solo in the first place.

EQ2 is still best experienced with a group as far as advancement rate and gear, but the devs have also done a good job of giving the solo player a semi-story-driven game to experience if grouping isn't possible all the time.

[geldonyetich]

My problem with grouping isn't that I don't want to group, so much as I seem to have a hard time even finding groups when everybody's too busy doing their own thing.  That's the issue I have with quests - I think they go beyond giving somebody their own thing to do, and into the realm of punishing them if they group because then they'll outlevel their quests.  Yes, there are quests that involve grouping, but it's a catch22 - where's players who are available to group with?  Too busying doing solo quests.

I know this because I've actually found myself not wanting to group sometimes because then I'll outlevel my quests while doing something unrelated.  Lately, most of the group opportunities I've seen have been, "Oh, lets just go kill stuff for xp" groups.  That sucks.  The rest were either out of my level range or for quests I've never heard of or already done.

It could be that this is only an issue with lower levels, as the highest I've ever been is level 25ish.  I hear things slow down a bit later.  I shouldn't be looking forward to that, but I am.

FYI, I do make a goodly amount on the broker, more than enough to afford mastercrafted gear.  Roots and Ores are consistant sellers, especially with the consignment writ system in place, and sometimes I find other things that will sell too.  The main hurdle I run into isn't lack of money but rather broker skillbook availability.  Indeed, I've found that to be the main reason I'm into crafting lately.

[Strazos]

If you're getting XP and leveling...what's the difference? The vast majority of quests, in any game, are one-offs.

[Soln]

what is unequivocally bad design is offering a player who is not grouped (which the system can tell) a quest which is marked green (lower than player level) but can only be completed in a group.  This is like triple ugly -- offering a quest lower than the player's level that a player still can't complete.   Now, the problem is how the quest requires a group -- more DPS, more participants, more heals, I dunno -- but the fact that I don't see this in WoW or DAoC makes me wonder WTF is up: giving challenges and rewards to you individually that are supposedly lower than you that can't complete alone.  And when you can complete them, the mobs of course are grey.

Why do they have that crazy ^^^, ^^, ^ designation?  I haven't been able to find out if these are 10%, 20%, or 30% harder?  And how are these different from "Heroic" mobs?  EQ2 is very confusing.

[geldonyetich]

[...]I don't see this in WoW or DAoC[...]

You might be forgetting WoW's "Elite" and "Epic" mobs, which work somewhat identically to EQ2's, preventing solo quest completion until long after you've outleveled them.

Granted, we're in agreement that EQ2's method of designations are unneccessarily wierd.  Players have to learn that the size of the frame around the mob's name indicate it's general toughness, with additional modifiers in the up arrows.  One can get used to it in time, but it's somewhat trial and error.

[Soln]

[...]I don't see this in WoW or DAoC[...]

You might be forgetting WoW's "Elite" and "Epic" mobs, which work somewhat identically to EQ2's, preventing solo quest completion until long after you've outleveled them.

Granted, we're in agreement that EQ2's method of designations are unneccessarily wierd.  Players have to learn that the size of the frame around the mob's name indicate it's general toughness, with additional modifiers in the up arrows.  One can get used to it in time, but it's somewhat trial and error.

"the size of the frame"?  don't understand.  The size of the font in EQ2 mobs?  And yeah, WoW has those, but EQ2 has heroic and elite and epic/legendary mobs too I thought.  The only thing worth trying to figure out for me is how ^ ^^ ^^ and opposite work to my level, since its claimed that decay does not affect your DPS or mitigation unitl 0% exactly.

[Kenrick]

Re-cancelled my account today.  Can't believe I lasted almost 3 weeks.

[geldonyetich]

the size of the frame"?  don't understand.  The size of the font in EQ2 mobs?

Everything but the letters itself.  When you target the mob, there will have some different looking graphics in the target window - where the hitpoint bar shows up.  The more expansive looking the graphics are, the more epic the mob.  World of Warcraft actually uses a fairly identical system, but they clarify better by putting (Elite) in the name in addition to the frame graphics.   The up arrows just indicate "tougher" than the frame designates.  A heroic mob wiith three arrows up will be much tougher than a heroic mob with just one arrow.  There's also a tool tip that will pop up when you move your cursor over the target window that tells you how many players the encounter is balanced for as well as a plain english description of how tough the foe is.

But for most people, that's just too much information.  DAOC's method is just target level = difficulty... which may be inaccurate depending on the type of mob your facing.  WoW's method is target level = difficulty except if it's marked "Elite" or "Epic".  EQ2's method is target level + all the stuff in the previous paragraph.

[Modern Angel]

Re-cancelled my account today.  Can't believe I lasted almost 3 weeks.

Same. And I'll be back at some point when I'm at one of my low ebb months in WoW. I want to like this game so much but it makes it so hard. At base it's a purer Diku style game than WoW with more depth. I love the guild system with a passion.

You know what it was? This is going to sound so fucking stupid... I was riding a griffon in EQ2 and the wings were stiff as boards. And I thought about riding a WoW griffon and about how it was obvious that the WoW graphics team obviously had watched an eagle fly. EQ2's hadn't.

So small and dumb but it sums up the difference in microcosm.