(UO expansion) You'll all scoff, but I'm still going to jizz.

[Calantus]

This is brilliance. The NGE derail was countered by possibly the only tangent with more power --- UO's bitchslap to PKers. And to make it all the better, the UO:R tangent actually brings the thread closer to topic.

Bravo.

I don't know, we could try a politics derail. Just gotta get a good opening.

[Margalis]

sinij the problem is the numbers don't agree with you.

You can claim that UO pre-Trammel was a better game, but you can't claim it was a more popular one.

[WindupAtheist]

WUA I think you are too experiencing Entitlement Issues, don't worry your entitelments are still in place. Now go play your robo-ninja-elf-samurai-bug-riding-neon-touting-artifact-using character and pretend that U in UO still stands for Ultima.

I'm logged in right now.  And a year from now I'll be playing in Trammel on a spiffy revamped UO client while you scream about how UO is ten years old and has been "ruined" for eight of them.  Lawl.

[Reg]

sinij the problem is the numbers don't agree with you.

You can claim that UO pre-Trammel was a better game, but you can't claim it was a more popular one.

I'm sure he has a graph somewhere that prove his numbers are correct!

[sinij]

[shiznitz]

Who was the retard that paid $1.02 for a $1 maximum value contract?

[sinij]

I think graphs are clearly labeled.

[Bill]

This is why freeshards are good, and while they'll be even better come the new expansion. Take a little bit from here, a little from there and you have a better game.

Now go play your robo-ninja-elf-samurai-bug-riding-neon-touting-artifact-using character and pretend that U in UO still stands for Ultima.

Couldn't have said it better, OSI is a joke these days. I just want my old school PVP shard to look good.

[WindupAtheist]

More information released.

Q: What is Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn? Just a new client or more?
A: We are re-drawing the graphics and building a new user interface that will be easier-to-use for players new and old. (At the same time, we’re working to give long time players UI options that will let them play almost exactly the way they play now.)

We are also adding new content that you’d find in most other UO expansion packs, such as a new player race, new features, a new dungeon and other surprises.

We will be polishing and improving some areas of UO game play, but the core sets of rules, systems and content will remain intact.

The idea is to give current, former, and new players a vibrant, thriving world that looks and plays like it’s new, that also takes advantage of Ultima Online’s nine years of features, content and culture.

Q: Will there be a beta? If so, when? How long will it be?
A: Yes, we will have a public beta test. Dates will be announced on www.uo.com.

Q: Is the new client 2d or 3d?
A: Yes! In a way, it is both. It’s a 3D engine that will look and play like a 2D engine, except for some special effects, lighting and other small details.

Our goal was to preserve the look and feel of Ultima Online, while also providing the benefits of a modern graphics engine.

Q: Will we be able to rotate or otherwise change the camera angle?
A: To preserve the charm and feel of Ultima Online, we’re re-building the world with highly detailed 2D tiles. This allows us to have the visual detail we want, but does prevent us from creating a rotating camera.

Q: Will the new special effects be scalable? If I have a fast computer, can I enable more cool effects to make the game look better?
A: There will be some effects that will be scalable according to what 3D card you have. However, our goal is to give players with low system spec machine a visually vibrant and inviting game.

Q: Will we still be able to play with the old 2D or 3D client after Kingdom Reborn launches?
A: Yes, we will continue to support the older clients after the launch of Kingdom Reborn. However, the long term plan is to support a single client for the game.

In addition, developer Pat Malott (aka Leurocian) has apparently rejoined the UO team, much to the delight of the Stratics monkeys.  I will admit I'm pleased as well.  He was behind the "paragon  monster" system and the associated minor artifacts, as well as the last huge monster AI upgrade.  The systems he was behind always seemed to be the ones that were finished, working, and fun.

[Cheddar]

Shiny!


Too bad the fucking game will still be item centric.  I may still be drawn in, though.  I am finding Asherons Call to become stale; all anyone does is level level level.  I need adventure!

[Arnold]

Now tell me how this would not apply to UO:R?

Because the majority of players were playing a PVE game and having that interrupted by PKs. As a PVEer, I had no interest in sharing a world with the PKs at all. They were playing some game, but it was totally different from the game I (and I think the majority) of players were playing. PKs weren't part of our experience, they were an interruption of that experience. The minority of PKs were, in effect, changing the genre of the game for the majority.

I think that's an issue that the PKs never understood. We didn't view them as part of the game. They were a bug. UOR patched the bug.

No, you were the one who didn't understand the game.  UO was meant to be a world, and in a world there are bad people.  If you had taken time to read the original manual, OSI flat out told you not to leave town unless you had a group of people with you who could all protect each other.

Of course, you can't maximize your gold intake when you have to split it with others.  Better to be greedy, die a bunch, and whine to devs for protection.

[Arnold]

sinij the problem is the numbers don't agree with you.

You can claim that UO pre-Trammel was a better game, but you can't claim it was a more popular one.

That's because a large number of vets bought extra accounts so they could place big houses on the new land.  It wasn't like a bunch of 14 year old kids went "OMG MOM!  5 YEAR OLD UO IS SAFE NOW!!! PLZ BUY FOR ME!!111!!"

[Reg]

I just know you have a graph for us Arnold. C'mon now. Don't be shy.

[Rasix]

[WindupAtheist]

That's because a large number of vets bought extra accounts so they could place big houses on the new land.  It wasn't like a bunch of 14 year old kids went "OMG MOM!  5 YEAR OLD UO IS SAFE NOW!!! PLZ BUY FOR ME!!111!!"

UO came out in late 97, and Rennaisance was like mid 2000.  It wasn't five years old.  It wasn't even a full three.  The market was much less competetive then, and it WAS immensely easier to talk my friends into trying the game when I could assure them that all the PK grieftard horror stories they had heard were a thing of the past.  Seriously, nobody fucking likes full-loot open PVP.  They just don't.  Deal with it.

I mean are you, and sinij, and some of the other usual suspects from the Stone Age early years of UO this defensive about EVERY unpopular thing that you happen to like?  When you order pizza, do you loudly lecture everyone else on how people really love anchovies, and it's just a conspiracy from pepperoni manufacturers that keeps them down?

[sinij]

[WindupAtheist]

[Slyfeind]

I never thought it'd be ten years later, and we'd still be arguing over whose playstyle is more fun. I'm not being snide or anything; that totally blows me away. TEN YEARS after Ultima Online came out! And here we are today, the same people, the same arguments.

I <3 U Guyz

[Reg]

UO was the first MMOG a lot of us ever played and for some reason we always stay passionate about our very first game even if we've stopped playing it years ago.

[caladein]

UO was the first MMOG a lot of us ever played and for some reason we always stay passionate about our very first game even if we've stopped playing it years ago.

I don't really talk much about Asheron's Call... then again, I was in middle school, so I doubt I'd remember much to argue about anyway. It's just you UO guys :P.

[Yegolev]

UO was my first graphical MUD, too, but you don't see me airing my sandy vagina on the internet about it.  I just fucking quit playing.  Before this magical Trammel, too, which I still don't really understand.  I logged into UO last December and honestly wasn't sure if the virtual LARPers around me were able to gank me or not.  Since, you know, there isn't a manual or UI if you are using the fucking release CDROM like me.

[Sunbury]

Speaking of PvP only games, ARCHLord lauched with a whopping 2 US servers.   They had talked about a PvE only server, but decided at the last moment not to bother, as 'no one had any interest in it'.

The PvP is still no loot, no xp loss, just a free trip back to town.

Of course the PvP people are not happy as there is no point to it, and the PvE people don't want that free trip unannounced.

So ARCHLord has struck that perfect bad balance - a game neither style of player wants.

[HaemishM]

So ARCHLord has struck that perfect bad balance - a game neither style of player wants.

Well, why not? After all, the intial design was for a game I never wanted.

[Lantyssa]

<"graph">

[WindupAtheist]

I normally wouldn't go to such lengths to flame one particular poster, but since Sinij has been fagging up every single UO-related thread for the last two years, including ones like this which have nothing to do with the Rennaisance expansion, I took five minutes to throw this together in MSPaint.  Note that it even has one of his direct quotes from the infamous AW chart thread.

[Soln]

/chairnoise

(we got ourselves an old fashion'd CHART FIGHT!)

[Sky]

My favorite pvp quote of the day, from Amazon.com's CoV DVD comments:

You have to like " that sort of thing", November 17, 2005
Reviewer:   Sherri Murphy-Jacobs (Eustis, FL USA) - See all my reviews
   
I'm a longtime CoH player. I'm also in a non-traditional demographic for the game, so what I enjoy/dislike in the game won't really match with the expectations of NCSoft's target audience. Keep that in mind as you read.

I was both skeptical about and interested in CoV. The Deluxe edition had the nifty packs of HeroClix toys and lots of other stuff. The game on initial trial was buggy, but that's been about par for the whole world. They've patched and fixed and now most things work nicely.

Villians are very cool, very slick and appealing, there's no disputing that. They look fantastic, they have all the hero options and then some (this is not reciprocal for heroes) and there's a certain appeal in playing the bad guy. Lots of the options added into the game are great, although only a few also extend to the Hero side. The remixed villian archtypes offer a lot of fun stuff in new power combinations, new twists on old stuff. The environments were grim, gritty, and very vivid. It really looked good. I loaded it up, dug in, and spent a few dozen hours checking it out from both sides, solo and with friends.

The super bases seemed like a nifty idea and are something I'd hoped for almost since the game's beginning. However, they are almost prohibitively expensive (just wait until your first rent payment is due!). You must chose between being able to upgrade your character or building a base, especially after around level 34. Large supergroups are practically a must -- small groups don't stand much of a chance. Again, the bases are mostly aimed toward PvP so only a few options are really worthwhile for a non PvP supergroup. I'd recommend, unless you really want the "Hey, it's so cool" factor, that you skip it. Play The Sims instead.

I found my biggest objection was purely my distaste for the idea of fighting against other players. CoH originally was a game where cooperation was rewarded, teamwork was a goal, you weren't in competition with other people, and you could just concentrate on having fun, following the storylines, and seeing what developed as the world expanded. The depictions of violence were bloodless and you were "defeated", not killed. They added in the Arena for very restricted PvP (how successful that is, I don't know. People I game with avoid it and, after a few looks, I decided it wasn't worth the irritation). Now, it feels as if the flavor of the game has changed. Many things are available only if you go through the PVP areas. I see PvP as a huge barrier for enjoying the full possibilities of the game.

I finally decided not to play City of Villains because of the Player vs Player built in combat. The new areas are mostly PvP. If you don't want to fight with other players, there's no point in going into them. Hero or villain, you are walking around as a living target for someone else. Winning isn't just everything, it's the ONLY thing, and you win only when someone else loses. If you like the idea of playing for revenge, not being able to trust other players you team with, getting angry at people who see you as a source of points, a big lack of documentation on how the PvP works, wondering why nothing you do is successful -- you'll ADORE this. Absolutely. Dig in and have fun, you'll get your money's worth.

After a year and a half of regular play in CoH, and addicting many of my friends, I'm really considering closing my account and finding something else. I don't think that just ignoring the CoV part will help, as it looms over everything in the game. The world of CoH is now one more step -- a step too far, for me -- closer to the real world.

Oh, and I don't wanna be left out of a CHART FIGHT!

[raydeen]

That's not a chart. That's a Jackson Pollock painting.

[Glazius]

My favorite pvp quote of the day, from Amazon.com's CoV DVD comments:

I finally decided not to play City of Villains because of the Player vs Player built in combat. The new areas are mostly PvP. If you don't want to fight with other players, there's no point in going into them. Hero or villain, you are walking around as a living target for someone else. Winning isn't just everything, it's the ONLY thing, and you win only when someone else loses. If you like the idea of playing for revenge, not being able to trust other players you team with, getting angry at people who see you as a source of points, a big lack of documentation on how the PvP works, wondering why nothing you do is successful -- you'll ADORE this. Absolutely. Dig in and have fun, you'll get your money's worth.

After a year and a half of regular play in CoH, and addicting many of my friends, I'm really considering closing my account and finding something else. I don't think that just ignoring the CoV part will help, as it looms over everything in the game. The world of CoH is now one more step -- a step too far, for me -- closer to the real world.

Dear God. That is some high-test cowardice, right there.

The sad thing is I see people like her on the CoH forums all the time, whining about how they want the badges you get from exploring, fighting monsters, and completing objectives in a PvP zone (oh and the special powers too kthx) but think it's a terrible design flaw that they have to expose themselves to PvP to get any of them.

BZUH.

--GF

[stray]

Sometimes I forget that there are players like that.

I don't understand their fear. Didn't they ever play sports or compete against other kids in school? Tetherball? Foursquare? Spelling Bees? Hell.....Chutes and Ladders? Or are people who do those things considered sociopathic retards as well?

[Numtini]

Cowardice and fear have nothing to do with it. It's about a preference for certain things in a game that they feel PVP detracts from and a disinterest in what they see as being offered by PVP.

Believe it or not, some people avoid competition not because they're afraid to lose, but because they simply don't feel it's that enjoyable. Cooperation and socializing is what I prefer to do with my leisure time, not competing.

[stray]

Read her letter again.

She considered closing her account simply because City of Villians EXISTED.

That goes beyond anything you stated. She also completely overstates how much PvP is a factor in CoX (not much), as if the entire game world came crumbling down.

Then she closed with this line:

The world of CoH is now one more step -- a step too far, for me -- closer to the real world.

Dislike PvP for whatever reasons you want, but the person who wrote those words is someone who lives in fear.

[edit] I do believe however that no one really dislikes competition. Everyone, in some way or another, will compete in trying to land a job, or in garnering the attention of someone, or in proving or disproving a point, or in the buying or selling of something. Just because you're not carrying a virtual rocket launcher in your virtual hand doesn't make it any different.

Hell, some of the most cutthroat and hostile people in mmo gaming are "carebears", simply because they're willing to go so far as to villianize other players and protest for a playing ground all to themselves (which they sometimes even win). If anything, they're "competitively spirited".

Even this woman above is partaking in some form competition by taking the time out to write an Amazon review.

[tkinnun0]

The sad thing is I see people like her on the CoH forums all the time, whining about how they want the badges you get from exploring, fighting monsters, and completing objectives in a PvP zone (oh and the special powers too kthx) but think it's a terrible design flaw that they have to expose themselves to PvP to get any of them.

What if those zones didn't have PVP but instead had random purple mobs that could only be won by using a random obscure tactic, combo or just sheer dumb luck. Would her supposed aversion to that indicate fear and cowardice as well?

[stray]

What?

So every player you fight or see is equivalent to a fortune bound, "obscure" tactic using purple?

[Lantyssa]

She didn't like CoV because of its influence on CoH and the promotion of PvP in both games.

Much like Numtini, I prefer a cooperative experience over a competitive one.  It is fairly common, although many of the competitive types do not seem to really understand it.