Expansion news: Smaller raids, Honor rehaul

[Jobu]

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3152830

The highlights are:

- Raids capped at 25 players. All raids in the expansion are between 10-25. The final, level 70 one is 25.
- Honor is going away as we know. Instead you earn honor much the same as you do now, but spend it as a kind of currency instead of dealing with the ranking system.
- Some cool new spells for Paladins and Shamans.

Basically, fistfuls of awesome.

[bhodi]

Kick ass. if it's true.

[Zane0]

Honor revamp is good.

The raid change completely fucks my tightly-knit 45-50-regular guild, however.  Two raid groups will be a nightmare, and hoping for attrition / being tight-asses with signups is not a great alternative.  Resourceful players will ensure they have the right social connections..  Many good players in larger guilds would indeed stand to benefit by being on the right side of an inevitable trimming of the fat.  It would also be far easier to form new raiding guilds.

Regardless, between this, the Shaman/Paladin change, and level 70 class development, WoW endgame raiding will be completely different with The Burning Crusade.

[Koyasha]

Heh, so they're making that mistake too.  Not that it matters to me personally, it's all good for me if and when I come back, but living through the post-Planar age in EverQuest showed me one thing with great clarity, and that's that it creates a poor situation for guilds when maximum raid numbers decrease.  PoP with it's 72 person raids, followed by raids with limits of 54 or less caused a lot of trouble with guilds that were too big to fit everyone into one raid, but too small to field two raids consistently.  Splitting a 40 person raid group into two 25 person raid groups isn't quite as easy as adding 10 people due to the class balance concerns.

Overall, probably a good move, but it definitely shows the error of making 40 person raids in the past, if they have no intention of continuing to make raid content of that size.  The 72+ raids are a thing of the past in EQ, and 40 person raids are going to be a thing of the past in WoW if Naxxramas is the last of the 40-man raid content.  In the future it'll be done by 25-30 level 65-70's.  Which is all well and good, but it'll bend a lot of guilds on the way and break a few, which is usually sad to see.

End result will probably be good, but the intermediate period is going to hurt a lot of people.

[Modern Angel]

I had this feeling that the expansion was going to be a total overhaul of alot of existing concepts in WoW. Turns out that hunch was right.

Curious if this marks some sort of falling out with the Tigole/Furor crowd. I doubt it but it seems odd that they'd release Naxx the 40 man and then immediately say that was it. Unless there will actually be upgrades in Naxx even for 70s and it's actually meant to be done 25 man...

[Kail]

Yeah, seems awfully drastic to me.  Not that I don't think the endgame would benefit from some drastic changes, I just didn't see them being eager to bet their $100 million/month franchise on it.

Can someone maybe explain to me what this means:

For a 5-on-5 team you could have 10 people on a roster. You can have your substitutes, your benchwarmers, etc. And that should make it interesting

Substitues?  Benchwarmers?  What is this?  In case your team captain comes down with a crippling typing injury, or what?

[bhodi]

Er, fixed 'pvp' teams. Think of it like instance timers, but weekly, and with a set number of 10 people. So you get those 10 people, sign up for the week, and then field 5 of those people througout the week. Then, at the end, the teams are ranked. Everyone gets honor points, and the higher ranked ones acrue them faster, and can get the epicx faster. The lower ranked ppl can still get the purples, but it will just take longer.

Most of that stuff has been confirmed by blue on the forums, and gamespot also has an expose'..

[Jobu]

Can someone maybe explain to me what this means:

For a 5-on-5 team you could have 10 people on a roster. You can have your substitutes, your benchwarmers, etc. And that should make it interesting

Substitues?  Benchwarmers?  What is this?  In case your team captain comes down with a crippling typing injury, or what?

Does that mean I can red card bubble-hearthing Paladins, and FD->Ice-Trap Hunters?

[Modern Angel]

Cross faction yo momma jokes inspire headbutts.

[Koyasha]

I think the idea is to have people you can count on that would replace anyone that happens to need to go.  Also, if you can hotswap people in and out of combat, you can adjust your team to the enemy's strategy.  Happen to need another mage?  Send one in!

[jpark]

Interesting.  I agree with the short-term pain mentioned above.

Like EQ - I am concerned that hybrid classes like Paladins could interfere with the tanking abilities of warriors.

[Chenghiz]

In wiriting, I like these concepts. How they'll play out is another thing entirely of course, but in particular the changes to raid size make me very happy.

[Righ]

Like EQ - I am concerned that hybrid classes like Paladins could interfere with the tanking abilities of warriors.

Well, you have nearly 40% less people in a maximum sized raid. That should be good for cutting out a decent proportion of witless imbeciles. Or were you planning to raid the endgame instances with a pickup group?

[angry.bob]

This is all good. I take it as absolute vindication that I was right, and Tigole chokes on cock. Especially concerning the paladin stuff. 

[Simond]

Another preview, but this one lists the BE & draenei mounts (cockatrice & elephant-type thing, respectively)

Also, a player report from Gencon:

Some information coming from Gencon about the Burning Crusade. Not all is new.

New profession level cap is 375 and called Master
Alchemy specialties called Potion and Elixir Alchemy
Tailoring specialties called Shadoweave, Divine and Arcane Tailoring
In the expansion they will be many more useful high level recipes. Along the lines of sageblade or robe of the archmage and better.
Each race/class combination will receive one new racial spell, much like Priests already do.
The example they give is Blood Elf Paladins getting a spell called Blood Debt which amplifies the power of your next judgement at the cost of health. All racial spells will be released when public beta starts.
They're aiming for Q4 2006 release.
Public beta will begin not too long after 1.12 goes live.
Patch 1.13 will be primarily a bug fix patch, but will introduce the Dark Portal opening world event.
They learned from their mistakes from the pvp system in the original game. They will completely revamp the honor system and make it complement PvE, rather than be dependent on it.
They have ideas to make PvP more skill based than time based. 1.12 is just a temporary fix.
Cross realm battlegrounds makes it possible for them to make many new battlegrounds without thinning the pvp population.
Gladiator Arenas will be introduced in the expansion. Some will be deathmatches (which is something players requested but weren't appropriate for a battleground), some will be survival against increasingly powerful monsters.
World pvp objectives will probably not give physical rewards. It's just something for fun that players requested. Think SS Tarren mill battles.
Guild rating and ladder will be introduced as part of honor system changes
They will focus on smaller group content, but that doesn't mean theyre forgetting about raiders. An example is there are 4 full raid dungeons not including onyxia in game currently. They will have at least as many in the expansion.
They really liked stuff like DM tribute and 45 minute baron. As a result all new BC dungeons will have difficulty levels.

...but this is currently uncomfirmed.

[lamaros]

Regardless, between this, the Shaman/Paladin change, and level 70 class development, WoW endgame raiding will be completely different with The Burning Crusade.

Yes. We can hope.

Maybe even good enough to get me to play again.

[bhodi]

Wow, I just had an image of the gladitorial arenas.. that would seriously kick ass. 5 of you vs increasingly tough monsters, see how far you can get.. maybe with others watching, maybe instanced, either way that's just cool.

[HRose]

Instead you earn honor much the same as you do now, but spend it as a kind of currency instead of dealing with the ranking system.

Basically, fistfuls of awesome.

I find EXTREMELY IRRITATING when people receive praises for NOT HAVING DONE what was necessary for more than two years. And started with that super retarded idea in the first place.

That's not "awesome", that's quite disappointing, in fact. And those responsible of that shitty design shouldn't be brought in triumph because they finally gave up at their incompetence.

[Merusk]

Nice changes in there.  I'm dissapointed to see the ranking ladder go away completly, I'd rather have seen it remain untied to equipment-gains, but actually reflect some skill via Kill/Death ratios, etc. 

Then again, with items making such a huge difference in PvP, that's still not a good reflection of skill.  Perhaps ranking the teams that way would be, though.

[Righ]

That's not "awesome", that's quite disappointing, in fact. And those responsible of that shitty design shouldn't be brought in triumph because they finally gave up at their incompetence.

Unfortunately, I find myself in agreement with HRose. The WoW developers should be pilloried for our amusement too. Not verbally, in actual wooden pillories.

[Modern Angel]

Yes, because making a design decision for the betterment of the game is Bad Fucking News and the important thing is HRose having something to gripe about in overly long broken English. You dizzy fucking bitch.

[Calantus]

Killing guilds is a good thing I guess?

PVP changes look good.

[Jayce]

Yes, because making a design decision for the betterment of the game is Bad Fucking News and the important thing is HRose having something to gripe about in overly long broken English. You dizzy fucking bitch.

Yes, but I remember when HRose was a fanboi for WoW, back in beta days.  I guess you can't be a ranter and like the games you play though.  Tough life.

[angry.bob]

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3152830
- Honor is going away as we know. Instead you earn honor much the same as you do now, but spend it as a kind of currency instead of dealing with the ranking system.

Basically, fistfuls of awesome.

It was fistfuls of awsome way back when it was called Dark Ages of Camelot, too.

[Paelos]

Killing guilds is a good thing I guess?

PVP changes look good.

It'll be painful, but it won't kill them. Guilds will be the same, while trimming off some, and the some that are trimmed will find it easy to get together in new guilds due to the low numbers required.

I think in the long run, even the hardcore will like it better after the dust settles. Even if they don't, the vast majority of the WoW community who is benefitted by the move will really care less.

[Righ]

I thought we'd established in some other ten page thread that most people were raiding and loved raiding, and that the people who wanted smaller groups were an irritating vocal minority? In theory this change should start a popular revolution against the developers for attempting to destroy the game.

[Koyasha]

It'll be painful, but it won't kill them. Guilds will be the same, while trimming off some, and the some that are trimmed will find it easy to get together in new guilds due to the low numbers required.

It will undoubtedly kill some guilds.  They'll be in the minority, as most guilds will adjust somehow, but it'll happen.  Happened in the post-Planar era too.  In some guilds, the trimming will just trigger massive breakups.

[Calantus]

Yeah it probably is better to go with 25 than 40. That's something that should have been thought of before release though. -_- Now I'm looking at a guild we put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into making it a tight raid of skilled people. All the recruiting and cutting the fat. What was it for? Meh.

Oh and the change wont help casuals. You'll still need to be able to devote a big chunk of time regardless of size of the guild. It also wont make recruiting any easier because the excess people will be taken up the extra guilds that will pop up. 25 people will make it easier to get along with all 25 and get to know them well, will probably make the encounters tighter, and will reduce officer overhead. Good to be sure, but its not the silver bullet people are after. Raiding will be raiding, just less people required.

Also it's not just about guilds surviving, im sure people who end up having to be cut or sat our forever wont be impressed regardless of whether their guild survives.

[Signe]

Yes, because making a design decision for the betterment of the game is Bad Fucking News and the important thing is HRose having something to gripe about in overly long broken English. You dizzy fucking bitch.

Bit over the top, no?  I guess it's your time of month.  Here, , have one of mine. 

Asshole.

PS  I'll absolutely start playing again when the expansion comes out.  It might even keep me interested for a few months.

[Modern Angel]

Thank you. I'll put it in my ass since that's the only appropriate hole.

Is there a certain threshold of invective which is frowned upon or is it the HRose/Borat fan club?

[Modern Angel]

Yeah it probably is better to go with 25 than 40. That's something that should have been thought of before release though. -_- Now I'm looking at a guild we put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into making it a tight raid of skilled people. All the recruiting and cutting the fat. What was it for? Meh.

Oh and the change wont help casuals. You'll still need to be able to devote a big chunk of time regardless of size of the guild. It also wont make recruiting any easier because the excess people will be taken up the extra guilds that will pop up. 25 people will make it easier to get along with all 25 and get to know them well, will probably make the encounters tighter, and will reduce officer overhead. Good to be sure, but its not the silver bullet people are after. Raiding will be raiding, just less people required.

Also it's not just about guilds surviving, im sure people who end up having to be cut or sat our forever wont be impressed regardless of whether their guild survives.

I read from a few cutting edge raiders that the problem with the 40 mans was that you simply could not weed out the tards fast enough or with enough alacrity to keep the number below 10 or so in a raid. So you get terrible churn as guilds would run into Naxx and later half of AQ40 because the idiots are there in encounters where you can't have any and succeed. 25 non-idiots is much easier to get.

Difficulty from the encounter itself or difficulty from a rogue who keeps pulling aggro on Vael night after night? I'd much prefer the former.

[Merusk]

I forsee my recently-merged guild and it's former raiding partner fracturing again after this.  I can't say I'm upset at the notion, and cite  what M.A. said above.

We have a high-tard population right now.  We need to keep them because they're in key classes.  It sucks, and I await trimming them the fuck out with an eager knife.

[Signe]

Thank you. I'll put it in my ass since that's the only appropriate hole.

Is there a certain threshold of invective which is frowned upon or is it the HRose/Borat fan club?

You called my husband a bitch for absolutely no reason in a stupid WoW expansion thread.  Either you are truly bi-polar and I just never noticed or you are the most voracious fanboy I've ever seen.  You were so OTT that if you fell you'd land with a big, meaty crunch.  Strangely, I've never seen you do that before.  You've always seemed pretty reasonable.  What happened?

[Modern Angel]

You're married to HRose?

[Signe]

No, to Righ.  Oh, I get it now.  You're stoned!  Sorry... carry on.