Expansion news: Smaller raids, Honor rehaul

[Morat20]

I'm looking forward to the raid downsize. Our guild puts up about half the toons for our weekly MC run, and we draw in about 15 from "regular friends" who like raiding with us but like their guild. The last five come from harassing guildies and friends. We generally run MC with about 35 to 37 people -- I can think of perhaps twice we had a full 40 man raid going in.

ZG, on the other hand, is easy to fill. It's just guildies -- people who are both skilled AND laid-back about things (we avoid catassery) and just fit into our general view of "This is supposed to be challenged and fun, not something that should make you scream and curse".

20 to 25 we can fill with fewer idiots, and more importantly it opens up the raiding door to alts. Right now, we've got WAY too many warriors and hunters (we're starting a rotation there), but too few 'locks and mages. Your 'lock alt can get in, even if you don't bother signing up -- your hunter alt is screwed unless one of the hunter mains lets you take his place.

I think it'll just work better. I am also fascinated by the PvP team stuff -- it once again fits our needs. There's five or six of us that like to PvP together, and would love the arena stuff.

[Dren]

I like the sound of all the proposed changes, but I do have to say it won't affect me much.  I still can only spend time on 5-10 man content, so 25 still does nothing for me.  However, the chance that I'll EVER get into some of that contect, at least for one night, is way higher now.  I mean, I actually experienced AQ20 two times.  I didn't get anywhere, but at least I can say I was there.

I can see this change really affecting those that had marginally enough time to spend on 40-man instances.  Now, they'll have time on their hands and still get into instances for the phat lewts.  That is a good thing.  My prediction is that this will help WoW retain/regain subs.

I'm really curious to know if they were seeing a plateau in their sub numbers or some far-off predictor in the behaviour or the data that suggested a drastic change was in order.  Typically businesses never make huge swings in their product lines or services unless they foresee a problem that will harm their momentum in the market.

[Phred]

Here's all I know, there are 6277 level 60 alliance on my server.

Does this account for alts? I'm on a original, day 1 server, and a ton of people have multiple L60 alts. Some even have one of each class.

[Morat20]

I like the sound of all the proposed changes, but I do have to say it won't affect me much.  I still can only spend time on 5-10 man content, so 25 still does nothing for me.  However, the chance that I'll EVER get into some of that contect, at least for one night, is way higher now.  I mean, I actually experienced AQ20 two times.  I didn't get anywhere, but at least I can say I was there.

I can see this change really affecting those that had marginally enough time to spend on 40-man instances.  Now, they'll have time on their hands and still get into instances for the phat lewts.  That is a good thing.  My prediction is that this will help WoW retain/regain subs.

I'm really curious to know if they were seeing a plateau in their sub numbers or some far-off predictor in the behaviour or the data that suggested a drastic change was in order.  Typically businesses never make huge swings in their product lines or services unless they foresee a problem that will harm their momentum in the market.

I suspect that at least part of this change came from datamining raid habits. When you find that, say (to make up numbers) 50% of guilds will field a ZG team but only 5% will field 40-man raid teams, you start to ask why. Dig in deep enough, and you find "Ye Olde Average Mature Guild" can field 10 to 15 members for a raid -- and has enough contacts to get another 5 to 10 -- but can't get nearly enough for 40.

I suspect that the pattern for 40-man raids is pretty solid on all servers -- sort of a pyramid. You have your handful of catass guilds on top, that manage to field a full 40-man field (more or less entirely from within the guild) and raid constantly. A larger level of medium guilds that can field a 20 man raid (mostly) and ally with a few other guilds to flesh out a 40 man raid. An even larger level of small guilds that do mostly instances and 10-mans, but allies with another guild or two to flesh out 20-man raids. Then the largest tier of guilds that just do the 5-mans, occasionally doing a pickup or grabbing friends for UBRS or something.

Starting with that, you can check attendence and do polls to determine what blocks the end-game -- and I'd bet money that it boils down to guild size and attendence. I hate raiding with unknowns. (We recently replaced a third of our MC raid with either new folks or folks playing alts, and we went from being wipe-free to Domo to wiping on the first boss three times while the newbies learned. Luckily, no wipes until Garr after that -- and that was because of an accidental pull). I don't even like doing 5 mans unless it's with guildies or someone a guildie vouches for.

Smaller raids means that more of the raiders are your guild-mates or people you trust (I can't even keep track of who all is in a 40 man). Easier teamwork, easier to schedule, easier to fill. It opens up more of the raiding content to small and medium sized guilds.

The catasses on top? Well, they'll either have to strip people to field just a 25 man, or bulk up to field two 25 mans, or do a 25 man/15 man pair at the same time, and just swap around. It'll suck a bit to be them, but in the end I suspect there will be more raiders because of this.

[Venkman]

I appreciate that these changes will screw with a lot of established paths to catassery, but man, that post from Xi kills me:

Now you'd say, well why not use 2 raids. Who decides who goes in each raid, who leads the raids, how many people do we need on standby for each raid, what kind of class stack do we need for the encounters, how many people do we recruit to deal with the challenges ahead, what happens when group B's tanks are online, but they don't have enough priests, and A has priests, but no tanks

Hey, I have a thought: how about the people who decided the last time?

I swear, the fear for change is directly inversely proportional to the amount of time a person spends each day in a game. Look, it's nice you've mastered the old game rules, but this ain't Monopoly(tm). It's a living breathing world looking to retain as well as attract. I guarantee you'll adapt.

*phew*

Anywho, the changes look pretty good on paper, except the Honor thing. But that only doesn't look as shiny because it hasn't really been defined much yet, beyond the impressions that they're replacing one grind with another.

[Threash]

I appreciate that these changes will screw with a lot of established paths to catassery, but man, that post from Xi kills me:

Now you'd say, well why not use 2 raids. Who decides who goes in each raid, who leads the raids, how many people do we need on standby for each raid, what kind of class stack do we need for the encounters, how many people do we recruit to deal with the challenges ahead, what happens when group B's tanks are online, but they don't have enough priests, and A has priests, but no tanks

Hey, I have a thought: how about the people who decided the last time?

I swear, the fear for change is directly inversely proportional to the amount of time a person spends each day in a game. Look, it's nice you've mastered the old game rules, but this ain't Monopoly(tm). It's a living breathing world looking to retain as well as attract. I guarantee you'll adapt.

*phew*

Anywho, the changes look pretty good on paper, except the Honor thing. But that only doesn't look as shiny because it hasn't really been defined much yet, beyond the impressions that they're replacing one grind with another.

I thought the "just make two raids" solution was pretty retarded myself.  Theres just no way something like that would ever work, you'd simply have two different guilds using the same guild chat and what exactly would be the point of that?

[Fabricated]

I've been gone since the 3rd of this month visiting my brother, but having just gotten back to hear this I am blown away. Who the hell figured that Blizzard would actually look at their numbers and side with the more casual players and guilds?

It does leave the current 40 man instances in a weird position though. I mean, why bother with Naxx when you can just get geared up with decent gear from 5/10 mans and get the best loot from the 25-man raids? I'm sure challenge and fun and all that are great but not everyone can/will herd 40 cats when they don't have to.

[Righ]

Here's all I know, there are 6277 level 60 alliance on my server.

Does this account for alts? I'm on a original, day 1 server, and a ton of people have multiple L60 alts. Some even have one of each class.

The ones who aren't hardcore raiders are alts.

[MrHat]

I've been gone since the 3rd of this month visiting my brother, but having just gotten back to hear this I am blown away. Who the hell figured that Blizzard would actually look at their numbers and side with the more casual players and guilds?

It does leave the current 40 man instances in a weird position though. I mean, why bother with Naxx when you can just get geared up with decent gear from 5/10 mans and get the best loot from the 25-man raids? I'm sure challenge and fun and all that are great but not everyone can/will herd 40 cats when they don't have to.

I'm farily confident that once people accept the 25 man raid limits, that they'll drop those old-school encounters down to 20.

[Phred]

I've been gone since the 3rd of this month visiting my brother, but having just gotten back to hear this I am blown away. Who the hell figured that Blizzard would actually look at their numbers and side with the more casual players and guilds?

It does leave the current 40 man instances in a weird position though. I mean, why bother with Naxx when you can just get geared up with decent gear from 5/10 mans and get the best loot from the 25-man raids? I'm sure challenge and fun and all that are great but not everyone can/will herd 40 cats when they don't have to.

More than that, why should anyone coming up through levels after the expansion bother gearing up their guild to take on a 40 man only to have to deal with the drama of making 1/3 sit out after.

It will be interesting to see if Naxx can be done with 25 L70's. That'd be quite an increase in player power, IMO. Much more than you got from 50-60.

[Merusk]

It will be interesting to see if Naxx can be done with 25 L70's. That'd be quite an increase in player power, IMO. Much more than you got from 50-60.

Not really.  Go back and run ZF/ ST/ Early BRD sometime with a group of 60s who know what they're doing.  I've done the Jailbreak loops before with just 3 people.  55 priest, 60 war in blues, 60 rogue in blue/greens.  It took a long time because of the # of mobs, but it was nowhere near difficult. (Came close to dying once, because the priest just lacked the healing power of a 60.)

[lamaros]

There's a huge diff between 50 and 60, even if they have the same equipment.

[bhodi]

If they retrofit existing instances for the reduced player limit, they will also adjust their difficulty, just like they did in ubrs, strath, etc.

[Dren]

If they retrofit existing instances for the reduced player limit, they will also adjust their difficulty, just like they did in ubrs, strath, etc.

My assumption is that all 40-man instances will drop to 25 or 20 eventually.  It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.  Why have the 40-man block to 25-man content?  It sounds like MC needs a revamp anyway based on the number of reports of how boring it is anyway.  I wouldn't know from personal experience though.

[angry.bob]

Theres just no way something like that would ever work, you'd simply have two different guilds using the same guild chat and what exactly would be the point of that?

Oh, the irony. The point would be that guilds should be, and originally were, about associating with people who's company you enjoy. It wasn't until cunty, shit-ass, "raids" for worthless pieces of shit came along that the concept was perverted into the 'We're hardcore Task Force Alpha" shit that abounds today where most people in a guild hate each other but they need the organization to get raid loot. If you don't want to listen to what they have to say in guildchat because they're in a different raid than you are, either they're in the wrong guild, or you are.

Here's my point condensed down to a single piece of indisputable wisdom. Guilds are about the other people themselves, not what fucking raid they're on that day.

[Threash]

Theres just no way something like that would ever work, you'd simply have two different guilds using the same guild chat and what exactly would be the point of that?

Oh, the irony. The point would be that guilds should be, and originally were, about associating with people who's company you enjoy. It wasn't until cunty, shit-ass, "raids" for worthless pieces of shit came along that the concept was perverted into the 'We're hardcore Task Force Alpha" shit that abounds today where most people in a guild hate each other but they need the organization to get raid loot. If you don't want to listen to what they have to say in guildchat because they're in a different raid than you are, either they're in the wrong guild, or you are.

Here's my point condensed down to a single piece of indisputable wisdom. Guilds are about the other people themselves, not what fucking raid they're on that day.

And once again i ask, whats the point of being in the same guild as someone if you CANT PLAY WITH THEM?  do you stop being friends with someone because their guild tag changes?  I don't consider people friends just because they wear the same guildtag, and i don't consider them not friends because they don't.  Every guild ive been in on my time in wow has been based around PLAYSTYLE, and ive been in every single kind of guild there is.  I did the casual thing where we scrambled several nights a week to put together a 5 person group, i did the pvp guild thing and fought with the same people for hours each day and im doing the raiding thing now.  I'm friends with people in all three guilds, i was friends before i joined them and ill be friends after i leave, people who stay in a guild that does not fit their playstyle simply end up frustrated and quit.  Maybe for you a guild is simply another chat channel, but thats not the case for me or most other people.

[Calantus]

In my guild we came together to raid.

I couldn't give 2 shits about being able to talk to people in /g, that's what ventrilo is for and we don't restrict that to guildies only.

[Morat20]

It will be interesting to see if Naxx can be done with 25 L70's. That'd be quite an increase in player power, IMO. Much more than you got from 50-60.

Not really.  Go back and run ZF/ ST/ Early BRD sometime with a group of 60s who know what they're doing.  I've done the Jailbreak loops before with just 3 people.  55 priest, 60 war in blues, 60 rogue in blue/greens.  It took a long time because of the # of mobs, but it was nowhere near difficult. (Came close to dying once, because the priest just lacked the healing power of a 60.)

I did LBRS yesterday for the first time in a LONG time (escorting a level 56 priest). The other four of us were 60s in a variety of ZG and MC gear (we've been raiding MC for maybe 6 weeks now, and only get to Domo so far). It was a cakewalk. LBRS wasn't ever terribly hard, but the only wipe we had came when the 56 somehow managed to train about 40 mobs on us by aggoring mobs above him.

The mage and I blew apart the end-boss before his summoned mobs actually got there.

We've been noticing ZG going a lot faster as people started collecting Tier 1 sets as well. That's just gear -- not level upgrades.

[Venkman]

I thought the "just make two raids" solution was pretty retarded myself. Theres just no way something like that would ever work, you'd simply have two different guilds using the same guild chat and what exactly would be the point of that?

It sucks for them, but no more than it would for guilds that had 80 active raiders.

Personally, I think a guild that is fielding 40-person raids nightly with the exact same people five days a week is incredibly rare, down in the statistical-irrelevance realm. Chances are, they're guilds that predated WoW anyway, maybe even coming from EQ1, where the uberest endest bestest raids for freakin' 72 players. How insane was that?!

Splits are inevitable. Right now players get to blame Blizzard. A year from now it'll be internal politics or the collective growth of members to new stages in life, like houses, marriage, kids, whatever. Everyone and everything changes. Blizzard is not looking at December 2006. They're looking at December 2009. And if not them, VUG is making them do so. This is the quintessential cash cow of our time, and the way to keep it going is not to focus on a steadily diminishing number of players who are capable of putting up with ever-more-hardcore shit.

[lamaros]

So you can't have a group of 50, who spilt up in to two raids, but the members of each specific raid swap from time to time so you do play with everyone?

I don't consider people friends just because they wear the same guildtag, and i don't consider them not friends because they don't.  Every guild ive been in on my time in wow has been based around PLAYSTYLE, and ive been in every single kind of guild there is.  I did the casual thing where we scrambled several nights a week to put together a 5 person group, i did the pvp guild thing and fought with the same people for hours each day and im doing the raiding thing now.  I'm friends with people in all three guilds, i was friends before i joined them and ill be friends after i leave, people who stay in a guild that does not fit their playstyle simply end up frustrated and quit.  Maybe for you a guild is simply another chat channel, but thats not the case for me or most other people.

If you don't LIKE the people in your guild why the fuck do you CARE if you get broken up and reform as a 25 man raid group? In your own words, you've joined guilds in the past simply to further your own ends, and still have friends in other guilds, so what's the BIG FUCKING DEAL?

So you have to find a new guild suited for 25 man raids? So do it.

I'll repeat myself here:

I think only those who are in really good friendly guilds have a real reason to complain about this, and even then it'll pass within a while once new game dynamic works itself out.

***

You know how people play WoW as they level up? They play solo or in small groups, questing, running instances, maybe a little bit of PvP. And then wham, all of a sudden they get to level 60 and there's little more for them to do in that regard. All of a sudden they have to completely change their playstyle and become a mindless raider (the raid leader looks up the strategies that someone else has devised on the internet, then tells everyone in the raid what to do, and if they manage to minimise the retards in their group after spending hours and hours a night they get some new equipment, maybe! FUN!).

And WoW is popular. Huge numbers of people are playing the game and enjoying it, but the number of people who are also playing/enjoying the raiding 'endgame' are nowhere near as high.

So Blizzard has released an expansion which caters to more people's ideas of fun, and it still had raids, and yet you people are having a huge song and dance because you might have to change from a guild you only care about because of 40 man raids to a new guild that only cares about 25 man raids?

Gimme a fucking break.

[jpark]

Like EQ - I am concerned that hybrid classes like Paladins could interfere with the tanking abilities of warriors.

Well, you have nearly 40% less people in a maximum sized raid. That should be good for cutting out a decent proportion of witless imbeciles. Or were you planning to raid the endgame instances with a pickup group?

What?

That's right Righ you have deduced the essence of my post so lets expand on it:

1.  Smaller raids must mean fewer hybrid classes will participate.
2.  I wish I could use a pick up group to hit Naxx or perform a 45 minute Baron run flawlessly.
3.  People who play hybrid classes are imbeciles.

Have I missed anything you have imputed to my comment?

Anyway - to state the obvious - maybe you were having a bad day when you posted - I do not mean any of these things.

What I meant was what I said - expanding the aggro control abiliites of paladins will bring them into conflict with warriors in exactly the same way that happend in EQ.  The devs will deny this of course - as they did in EQ - but lead to endless drama over it.

[Phred]

While I know it might be a problem for some if they give pallys too much agro control I don't see it bothering the majority of warriors in WoW. They're all closet rogues anyway.

 

[caladein]

What I meant was what I said - expanding the aggro control abiliites of paladins will bring them into conflict with warriors in exactly the same way that happend in EQ.  The devs will deny this of course - as they did in EQ - but lead to endless drama over it.

Like what's been happening with Druids and Warriors since the Druid revamp? There's already tons of drama there, and I assure you that any boost to another tanking class would cause the Warrior boards to erupt in /wrists (relative nerfs and all that nonsense).

Hopefully with the buffs they're giving to Paladin tanking, we'll have encounters that each tank can main tank well. Some may play to one tank's strengths over another (Jin'do) but I kind of doubt that. Right now there isn't any reason to not have your best-geared tank, be they Druid or Warrior tank something (with the exception of Jin'do, and even the Kitty Call isn't as devastating as it first seems).

This is of course, highly wishful thinking, and one simply needs to look at T3 to be reminded of it.

[Paelos]

Good warriors aren't going to be hurt by opening up the tanking job. It's not all about gear and button smashing. It's about leading, timing, keeping up the pace, and learning how to control each encounter the best way you can. They have the past experience in the role that others don't have, and i doubt pallies would be given huge buffs that would suddenly make them the new FOTM tanks in raids.

I see it as they would be fun in 5 man encounters where you're not shoehorned into ALWAYS taking a warrior just to get it off the ground.

[Fabricated]

Good warriors aren't going to be hurt by opening up the tanking job. It's not all about gear and button smashing. It's about leading, timing, keeping up the pace, and learning how to control each encounter the best way you can. They have the past experience in the role that others don't have, and i doubt pallies would be given huge buffs that would suddenly make them the new FOTM tanks in raids.

I see it as they would be fun in 5 man encounters where you're not shoehorned into ALWAYS taking a warrior just to get it off the ground.

Agreed. I'd say gear plays a good role though. I mean, I don't see +Def anywhere in the Pally tiers, so in raids I imagine in raids you'll want someone who won't get their head crushed in by crits.

[Dren]

Good warriors aren't going to be hurt by opening up the tanking job. It's not all about gear and button smashing. It's about leading, timing, keeping up the pace, and learning how to control each encounter the best way you can. They have the past experience in the role that others don't have, and i doubt pallies would be given huge buffs that would suddenly make them the new FOTM tanks in raids.

I see it as they would be fun in 5 man encounters where you're not shoehorned into ALWAYS taking a warrior just to get it off the ground.

Yes, as a casual Pally at 60 I found my role very difficult.  I really only join 5-10 man groups and by the time they fill out the "necessary" roles, there are only a few opportunities for hybrid classes.  I switched to just healing since that is really all we are good for it seems (hard to kill priests.)  I do that well, but if a priest or druid is available, I'm second pickings.  For DPS or Tanking?  Ha!

I don't have to have DPS, but being able to get and hold agro would be a role that seems well suited to a support class like Paladin.  The last time I played armored priest, I healed well and the group succeeded without much loss, but I noticed I never even got hit the whole time.  My heals don't gain agro and since I wasn't attacking anything, nothing looked at me twice.  It seemed like a waste to even have armor on.  I might as well be able to pull some agro off of the cloth and leather wearers for even more support to the group.  Even limited agro control would have been nice.  It would have been more fun than Tetris - Healbot anyway.

[Merusk]

Yeah, paladin's current role is heal/ buff/ cleansebot.  It's boring as hell and I don't blame the Pallies for trying to break out of that role, but right now it's all they're good for.  Divine Fury seems to hold aggro pretty well when combined with seal of Retribution, but that's from experience only at L31. I know things tend to go pear-shaped in the high 50's.

It's amusing in a sad sort of way to watch so many of them try to be critadins and talk about how much damage they do when you just /know/ it's not the case. (unless there's undead.) At the 30s I can already see how inferior the damage is to any of the other 3 classes I've leveled-up (Priest, Hunter, War) and I've been spending good cash on Blue weaps whereas the Hunter & warrior always had greens. 

 I know it's going to be a slog if I continue and I just don't understand why anyone would push through as their first char.  For the love of mud pally combat is less interactive than EQ combat.  Seal-judge (autoattack engages on its own) -seal *pause 30 seconds*  re-seal.  Repeat until it's dead. 

[Dren]

In my case, I did Pally as my first due to ignorance although I started at launch so there wasn't much around for a warning.  I'm pretty stuborn too, so I just trudged through it all.

So, when I got to 60 and respecced to healbot for the guild, what did I do?  I started a Warlock.

Well, that being said, I had a lot more fun with the Warlock anyway.  He is sought after for utility type stuff and the constant DPS from DOT's at least.

[bhodi]

Yeah, paladin's current role is heal/ buff/ cleansebot.  It's boring as hell and I don't blame the Pallies for trying to break out of that role, but right now it's all they're good for.  Divine Fury seems to hold aggro pretty well when combined with seal of Retribution, but that's from experience only at L31. I know things tend to go pear-shaped in the high 50's.

It's amusing in a sad sort of way to watch so many of them try to be critadins and talk about how much damage they do when you just /know/ it's not the case. (unless there's undead.) At the 30s I can already see how inferior the damage is to any of the other 3 classes I've leveled-up (Priest, Hunter, War) and I've been spending good cash on Blue weaps whereas the Hunter & warrior always had greens. 

 I know it's going to be a slog if I continue and I just don't understand why anyone would push through as their first char.  For the love of mud pally combat is less interactive than EQ combat.  Seal-judge (autoattack engages on its own) -seal *pause 30 seconds*  re-seal.  Repeat until it's dead. 

Our guild leader was and is still pretty outspoken on the paladin forums. He eventually got tired of people talking about paladins can't hold aggro, etc. etc. and created a video series, Paladins Can't Tank, which is (you guessed it) videos of him tanking everything in MC and BWL.

Of course it's 100% staged (sort of, we didn't know he was MT until he waded in) and we're way way overgeared for the encounter. It still can be done.
Here's one of them on google video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-764039960634473523

[Merusk]

Well cool, at least they keep their single-target aggro, nice to see. (If only ours would stop picking up crit gear.... )

[Modern Angel]

That's sort of neat but a paladin got a Thunderfury? Please tell me it's either your only on in the guild or that the warriors and rogues all passed on it...

[bhodi]

ah, he's the guild leader, so he got it first. Privilege of rank, I guess. He did pay DKP for it, and also paid for the materials to forge it out of his own pocket. There are a few others who have one binding or the other, but it's currently the only one in the guild.

There were people who said he could only tank due to having a thunderfury, so he broke out the linken's sword of mastery and used that while tanking geddon :)

[Modern Angel]

Oy vey...

[Calantus]

Did he know what it was when he got it?

[bhodi]

Yes, he knew. We all knew. It wasn't a huge deal, since he (as an officer, manager of bank, website, and a number of other things) puts a lot more effort into the guild than your average member. He also had the highest attendance and DKP. It was more for the status than anything else; the DPS is nice but about 6 months ago when he got it what was really kickass was the mob debuff. It didn't really matter who's hands it was in, but I don't think any of us were senior enough in the guild or willing to shell out the 2k gold in materials to make the thing had we been given the option to collect the bindings.

We have another officer (druid) who's life is pretty much running the guild collecting the staff shards right now.