Rogue talent changes

[Paelos]

The fact that you believe this is suddenly going to mean we're taking more dps warriors than rogues is equally stupid. DPS WARRIORS CAN'T CLEAR AGGRO! Somehow rogues seem to forget that fact when they whine about their utility. A freaking dps machine that can hit hard and vanish without pulling off the tank is lovely. Hell in places like BWL it's downright essential.

[bhodi]

Hunters have an aggro dump and can do almost our damage, and can do more on many of the new boss fights (abom wing).
Mages can do more damage than a rogue without pulling, plus extra raid utility
Warlocks and others can simply use the aggro trinket from AQ.

[Chenghiz]

vis.

[Paelos]

Hunters have an aggro dump and can do almost our damage, and can do more on many of the new boss fights (abom wing).
Mages can do more damage than a rogue without pulling, plus extra raid utility
Warlocks and others can simply use the aggro trinket from AQ.

Fine, you're right. You're all fucked. Game over, man! Reroll before the sky falls, etc etc.

I fail to see how these changes specifically make this any different than before. All I can see now is they didn't improve the shit you wanted, so you're still in the same boat. If that's the case, rogues should have never been getting into groups in the first place, which I certainly don't see happening now.

[squirrel]

Hunters have an aggro dump and can do almost our damage, and can do more on many of the new boss fights (abom wing).
Mages can do more damage than a rogue without pulling, plus extra raid utility
Warlocks and others can simply use the aggro trinket from AQ.

Fine, you're right. You're all fucked. Game over, man! Reroll before the sky falls, etc etc.

I fail to see how these changes specifically make this any different than before. All I can see now is they didn't improve the shit you wanted, so you're still in the same boat. If that's the case, rogues should have never been getting into groups in the first place, which I certainly don't see happening now.

The point isn't that this is going to change overnight. The point is that as gear mudflation improves warrior and mage DPS and DOESN'T improve rogue DPS (remember the scaling issue??) that it's going to get worse. Look, 6 months ago NOONE would bring warriors to melee DPS in MC. Happens all the time now. It's a steady erosion that will now continue because rogues got none of the suggested changes that could have helped. Mages did in their review (massive aggro reduciing abilities, shatter crits helping both fire and ice) and so did warriors. If the review goes through as is the need for rogues in high level (BWL+) raids is going to go down. Not instantly no. But it will happen.

[Paelos]

Well for one, i doubt the review is going to go through exactly the way it looks now. And two, Blizzard may suck at a lot of things, but raiding is their cash cow and I really don't see them intentionally or unintentionally fucking an entire class out of the game with these choices.

I seriously think it's overreacting to worry about that. Besides flip it over. You give rogues too much scalability and they become DPS gods. Good for you, really bad for hunters. I do agree you need a specific talent that would matter in a raid, but I haven't heard a lot of good suggestions on what that would be. It would need to be something new to the game, not just letting expose armor stack.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, giving up now.

[Ironwood]

What the fuck has this got to do with Anything ?

What the fuck does anything have to do with anything? His point was that 90% of this thread consists of winning whines about how much rogues suck in raids, and the implication that they're never going to get invited to the party now that they suck even more. Essentially, I think its a call to please stop the self-pity and either enjoy playiing a rogue in raids, play a rogue where they are situationally superb, or play something else.

Warriors suck at ranged AoE. Blizzard needs to fix this now.

Wow. Way to fucking miss the point Righ. Yeah, that's what this thread is about. You got it.

Yeah, I've got to admit, this was a particularly nutsackular post for you Righ.

It did, like the Christian, amount to 'lern2play'.

I expect better from here.  I expect better in a ROGUE REVAMP thread.

Screw you all.

:)

[Signe]

I don't think it was all that nutsacky.  I think I understood what Paelos was saying, too.  If you want to be the most important in a raid then be a warrior or a priest.   The rest of you are all just dps, anyway.  Unless they can find 40 warriors and priest only, they'll invite you to the raid.  Who cares?   Maybe lern2play isn't such a bad idea... although, I can't be arsed to bother at the moment... but I like saying it to other people. 

 I thought rogues were supposed to be quiet and sneaky... so everyone should just shut up!

[Chenghiz]

UPDATE!

Devs decide that Eviscerate should scale with AP after all.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=1337254&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard

Subtlety is even more of a wierd tree than it was before, now.

[Paelos]

Hopefully, this will curb most of the bitching.

I'm shocked they didn't keep it that first way, really.

[squirrel]

This is much better. Not just the evisc scaling but the most important change i see is:

Opportunity is being moved to a tier 1 talent, swapping places with Camouflage.

This helps immensely as seal fate and combat dagger builds can now get away with 5 pts in subtlety instead of 10. Of course subtlety is looking like a more attractive PvE tree as well now.

See - it wasn't so hard to make reasonable changes now was it?

[Threash]

I want to make sweet passionate love to the talent review.  I've been playing with the calculator for the last hour and i honestly have no idea what im going to do, i can come up with viable interesting builds with any weapon/tree.  Thats really all we could have asked for, that and the scaling is nice.

[squirrel]

I want to make sweet passionate love to the talent review.  I've been playing with the calculator for the last hour and i honestly have no idea what im going to do, i can come up with viable interesting builds with any weapon/tree.  Thats really all we could have asked for, that and the scaling is nice.

Yeah there's some interesting combinations now. Combat daggers is probably still the best sustained DPS but boy subtlety has some nice talents that are PvE applicable now.

[Jayce]

Wow, what a turnaround for this thread.  Now if Ironwood posts with a neutral - hopeful flavored post, I'll just retire having seen it all.

I recall the mage and priest revamps starting out like this too, with some truly retarded ideas at the beginning which turned into fairly decent revamps at the end. 

[bhodi]

Me likey.

I do wonder, if people hadn't bitched, would it have been changed? Probably not.

[Jayce]

if people hadn't bitched,

Whoa.  Also, what if like... there weren't any air, man...   now THAT would be trippy...

[Signe]

Wouldn't matter.  Everyone will be bitching again soon.  I remember the neverending hunter bitch thread.  Everyone who plays WoW bitches about something all the time.  Forever.  It's traditional.

[squirrel]

Wouldn't matter.  Everyone will be bitching again soon.  I remember the neverending hunter bitch thread.  Everyone who plays MMORPG's bitches about something all the time.  Forever.  It's traditional.

Fixed that for you Feet.

[Typhon]

I recall the mage and priest revamps starting out like this too, with some truly retarded ideas at the beginning which turned into fairly decent revamps at the end.

I recall the same, and the massive warrior bitching at launch, and the time it took for druids to be tuned up a bit.  Almost seems like they do it on purpose to fuck with folks.  That amuses me.

I do wonder, if people hadn't bitched, would it have been changed? Probably not.

Yeah, thank god for the players.  Without the players helping with development, this game would suck.   

[Threash]

Yeah, thank god for the players.  Without the players helping with development, this game would suck.   

You joke but look at this talents compared to those they posted a few days ago, do you think there would such massive changes in such little time if there hadn't been massive, vociferous and justified complaining by the entire rogue community?  How did they go from "no scaling" to "evicerate rupture and garrotte will scale" in the span of 2 days?

[Phred]

Yeah, thank god for the players.  Without the players helping with development, this game would suck.   

You joke but look at this talents compared to those they posted a few days ago, do you think there would such massive changes in such little time if there hadn't been massive, vociferous and justified complaining by the entire rogue community?  How did they go from "no scaling" to "evicerate rupture and garrotte will scale" in the span of 2 days?

I think they do this intentionally. They initially release a set of mediocre changes while holding they changes they really intend to make in reserver. Once the bitching goes on for a week or so they release the changes they intended all along and everyone is happy, where if they're released them orignially people would still have bitched. They know people will bitch and complain no matter what they initially release.

[Ironwood]

Wow, what a turnaround for this thread.  Now if Ironwood posts with a neutral - hopeful flavored post, I'll just retire having seen it all.

I recall the mage and priest revamps starting out like this too, with some truly retarded ideas at the beginning which turned into fairly decent revamps at the end. 

I think you can retire.

I'm looking at the talent tree now and I'm just fucked as to what I'm going to do.  I'm a little spoiled for choice.  This could be good.

Expose and Sunder Still Don't Stack ?  I'M QUITTING.


Oddly enough, however, the new changes don't affect my current build...

[Dren]

I so want to be the happiness customer.  I bet he has a lot of fun.  And gold.  Er, yeah.

[bhodi]

I got almost the same thing in my WoW inbox in-game. freaky.

It's like they're stalking me.

Are you stalking me?

[caladein]

I got almost the same thing in my WoW inbox in-game. freaky.

It's like they're stalking me.

Are you stalking me?

My entire guild got oddly similar tells over the course of last night... hold me.

[Morfiend]

Since we are now going THIS direction, I thought I would bring up some thing.

Have any of you guys noticed the price of gold has skyrocketed? Blizzard must be really cracking down on farmers lately. A few months ago gold on my server was $35 for 1000g now the lowest price I can see is $150 for 1000g. Thats an amazing jump in price. Odd that I havent heard about any mass farmer bannings or such.

[Merusk]

Since we are now going THIS direction, I thought I would bring up some thing.

Have any of you guys noticed the price of gold has skyrocketed? Blizzard must be really cracking down on farmers lately. A few months ago gold on my server was $35 for 1000g now the lowest price I can see is $150 for 1000g. Thats an amazing jump in price. Odd that I havent heard about any mass farmer bannings or such.

Because there haven't been any.  It's just folks learning Naxx and buying the shit out of gold... or doing the "our uberguild will run you thorugh BWL for your Epix, 1000g/ drop" runs and letting other folks buy the gold for them.

 A "good" night in MC and my cloth-wearing priest has a 2-4g repair bill and has spent about 14g in consumables.  The MT and OT usually run into the 20's for repairs, and they're not fully-purpled.  Consumables used on the Tanks run around 200g.  T2 gear is more expensive than this for repair costs, plus there's all the consumables everyone's using for Nax encounters because you can't get resists high enough to counter the boss damage auras/ procs.