Rogue talent changes

[Ironwood]

I quite literally cannot do without improved shield bash these days.

The silences help so very very much.

[Paelos]

Yeah, things that make tanking at higher levels great in the prot tree?

Improved Shield bash's silence is awesome. It works a lot on trash, not so often on bosses.
Last Stand is awesome. It's probably the biggest lifesafer for your raid, let alone you. That extra second where you can get a late heal is everything.
Improved sunder is great, but could be better. Having sunders cost 3 less rage means you use 15 less rage each time you stack five on a target.
Shield Slam is killer. The threat on it is pure gold if something is trying to get away from you. It probably is the single most threat generating ability in the game.

[Xerapis]

Didn't you misspell "rouge"?

And no, I can't be arsed to actually change the text color.

[Ironwood]

That looks like Lockwood.

[Phred]

Improved sheild block is nice to have for fights where you don't want the huge spike of a crushing blow, as blocked hits can't be crushing.

[Rodent]

Looks like I might have to dust off the old rogue and give theese changes a go, though I doubt they will be enough to tear me from the goodness that is my priest and druid.

[Fabricated]

Yeah, things that make tanking at higher levels great in the prot tree?

Improved Shield bash's silence is awesome. It works a lot on trash, not so often on bosses.
Last Stand is awesome. It's probably the biggest lifesafer for your raid, let alone you. That extra second where you can get a late heal is everything.
Improved sunder is great, but could be better. Having sunders cost 3 less rage means you use 15 less rage each time you stack five on a target.
Shield Slam is killer. The threat on it is pure gold if something is trying to get away from you. It probably is the single most threat generating ability in the game.

I don't see the silence being all that amazing since while I've only really done the 20-mans up to this point, kicking rogues and counterspelling mages are generally more effective.

Last Stand looks really useful but it's not worth taking points out of another tree. I usually have limited invulnerability/elemental absorb/health potions and a health stone which have bought me the extra second I needed for a heal to land.

Improved Sunder is definitely not worth the points. I'm getting so much rage when I'm getting pounded as MT I can't sunder, revenge, shield bash, shout, or even mortal strike it away quick enough.

Shield Slam would be cool if I didn't have to spend a shitload of points in worthless skills to get it.

I just don't see how a full prot spec warrior would be required to do say BWL or Naxx. It'd be helpful, but I don't know if it'd be helpful enough to take a boring shit spec like protection.

[Xanthippe]

I think I'll make a gnome rogue.  I have a 53 undead one on a pve server, but I want to make a twink for the little bg.

Gnome best race, right?  Since I am not worried about end game rep?

The gnomes have the best giggle.

[bhodi]

I'm a gnome.

Go human for the +5 swords and rep or NE for the shadowmeld which is sick in PvP.

Escape artist is a nice idea, but in practice it's not overly useful. Maybe if it was instant cast....

[Paelos]

Yeah, things that make tanking at higher levels great in the prot tree?

Improved Shield bash's silence is awesome. It works a lot on trash, not so often on bosses.
Last Stand is awesome. It's probably the biggest lifesafer for your raid, let alone you. That extra second where you can get a late heal is everything.
Improved sunder is great, but could be better. Having sunders cost 3 less rage means you use 15 less rage each time you stack five on a target.
Shield Slam is killer. The threat on it is pure gold if something is trying to get away from you. It probably is the single most threat generating ability in the game.

I don't see the silence being all that amazing since while I've only really done the 20-mans up to this point, kicking rogues and counterspelling mages are generally more effective.

Last Stand looks really useful but it's not worth taking points out of another tree. I usually have limited invulnerability/elemental absorb/health potions and a health stone which have bought me the extra second I needed for a heal to land.

Improved Sunder is definitely not worth the points. I'm getting so much rage when I'm getting pounded as MT I can't sunder, revenge, shield bash, shout, or even mortal strike it away quick enough.

Shield Slam would be cool if I didn't have to spend a shitload of points in worthless skills to get it.

I just don't see how a full prot spec warrior would be required to do say BWL or Naxx. It'd be helpful, but I don't know if it'd be helpful enough to take a boring shit spec like protection.

You're right, not required, just better. Little things that I pointed out go a long way, but you're not doing 40 mans yet so don't worry about it. You can make the judgement call when the time comes. Really, the tree admittedly blows as I pointed out earlier. It's broken and needs more utility. Warriors don't need protection talents that make our abilities produce more rage or decrease the amount it costs. We have almost unlimited rage most of the time. Everything that falls into those categories has to go.

[Xanthippe]

Go human for the +5 swords and rep or NE for the shadowmeld which is sick in PvP.

I thought shadowmeld was a cheap stealth?  What does it do for rogues in particular?

[Threash]

Go human for the +5 swords and rep or NE for the shadowmeld which is sick in PvP.

I thought shadowmeld was a cheap stealth?  What does it do for rogues in particular?

Its a passive stealth bonus for rogues and druids, about equal to 2 points in MOD.

[Xerapis]

Actually, the last patch made shadowmeld usable by hunters only.

Sorry.

[Chenghiz]

I think I'll make a gnome rogue.  I have a 53 undead one on a pve server, but I want to make a twink for the little bg.

Gnome best race, right?  Since I am not worried about end game rep?

The gnomes have the best giggle.

Go human. Perception is just about the best anti-stealth ability in the game, and the skill in swords and maces is mighty fine. Gnomes have their size as the main advantage - I've been attacked by an ambushing gnome and killed without realising until it was too late.

Its a passive stealth bonus for rogues and druids, about equal to 2 points in MOD.

Shadowmeld adds 5 to your stealth level; MOD adds 3 per point. Items that add stealth also add 5. Really, it's a mildly useful racial but it's only useful if you stack up the stealth buffs.

[squirrel]

Its a passive stealth bonus for rogues and druids, about equal to 2 points in MOD.

Shadowmeld adds 5 to your stealth level; MOD adds 3 per point. Items that add stealth also add 5. Really, it's a mildly useful racial but it's only useful if you stack up the stealth buffs.

That's not it's only use though. It acts as a free Rapid Concealment as it's on a separate timer from stealth. So  you can leave stealth to do something that breaks it and then shadowmeld right away.

[Chenghiz]

Ah, I can see how that would be useful.

[bhodi]

squirrel's got it. The main thing people use it for is to break targeting; when you shadowmeld/stealth, the people lose their target; so if you have a ranged guy targeting you, like a mage, and you see his hands begin to glow, you can shadowmeld while walking to break his targeting and force him to start casting again. It being on a separate timer from stealth is just terrific. In rogue vs rogue duels, of course, it also gives you the edge.

Or so I've been told. Being a gnome, I wouldn't know :)  I'd say hiding in the bushes is real good, but most people still have the giant floating name above your head so you're still hard to miss.

Of course, freaking hunters and their shadowmeld... they can stay shadowmedled and cast a aimed shot, and don't unstealth until it actually fires.

[Xerapis]

Of course, freaking hunters and their shadowmeld... they can stay shadowmedled and cast a aimed shot, and don't unstealth until it actually fires.

But we have to be NELFs to do it.  Some things just aren't worth it.

[caladein]

Escape artist is a nice idea, but in practice it's not overly useful. Maybe if it was instant cast....

It's nice for Warriors, I've found it less useful with every other class though. To chime in though, I'd go Human too, Specializations + Perception are very evil (more so then Shadowmeld I feel, although I find it invaluable on my Druid).

And about Aimed Shot, they changed that at least a patch ago I thought (or at least on my Druid I can't start casting from Shadowmeld without it doing the fade-in animation as soon as I do).

[bhodi]

Escape artist is a nice idea, but in practice it's not overly useful. Maybe if it was instant cast....

It's nice for Warriors, I've found it less useful with every other class though. To chime in though, I'd go Human too, Specializations + Perception are very evil (more so then Shadowmeld I feel, although I find it invaluable on my Druid).

And about Aimed Shot, they changed that at least a patch ago I thought (or at least on my Druid I can't start casting from Shadowmeld without it doing the fade-in animation as soon as I do).

Yeah, it's going to become even more worthless depending on where improved sprint is moving in the sub tree, since they've just announced that it will break roots as well. Man I wish I went human. I don't know about the aimed shot patch, I don't pvp much, but it did seem ripe with abuse so they did probably fix it.

Also, gnomish warriors tanking gigantic bosses are just so comical what's not to like? Generally the swords are as long as they are tall, too.

[Merusk]

Of course, freaking hunters and their shadowmeld... they can stay shadowmedled and cast a aimed shot, and don't unstealth until it actually fires.

False.  That was removed 2 patches ago with the stealth changes.  You can't do ANY actions while stealthed now including but not limited to: Eating, bandaging, drinking, aimed shot, mounting and precasting.. byotch.

[bhodi]

False.  That was removed 2 patches ago with the stealth changes.  You can't do ANY actions while stealthed now including but not limited to: Eating, bandaging, drinking, aimed shot, mounting and precasting.. byotch.

Bring back precasting!

[caladein]

I'm pretty sure you can eat/drink while stealthed (as in: you start eating/drinking and then go into Stealth/Shadowmeld, you will continue eating/drinking until you move). I do it all the time.

[Morfiend]

I'm pretty sure you can eat/drink while stealthed (as in: you start eating/drinking and then go into Stealth/Shadowmeld, you will continue eating/drinking until you move). I do it all the time.

True.

[Xanthippe]

Fine.  I'll make a NE rogue and a gnome rogue and see which one I play.  You guys are no help at all.

My endgame toons are NE and human; I'm making no more toons I plan to take to 60 anything but human given the rep bonus.  The NE was just so I could get stuff from guys starting out.

(Worked, too).


edited:  It worked, but only at the beginning, and mostly what I got was people being nice.  People have wised up about the whole mangina thing.  I think I am one of the few real women NEs behind the toon - maybe the only one on my server.  I know we are few.

[kaid]

You can pry my escape artist from my gnome warriors cold dead hands. That power kicks so much booty as a warrior especially since I spend so much time in ubrs and strath and am constantly getting netted or webbed.

They drastically sped up how fast it casts a few patchs ago which turned it from cute to very damn handy. It can strip ANY negative movement speed effect snares/roots so its quite useful.

I have switched from arms/protection to mostly protection. Alot of the toys are not "requrired" but damn my group notices the differance in the 5 man instances. Between improved revenge and concussion blow I can keep a lot of mobs stunlocked for almost the entire fight. Being able to shut caster mobs the hell up on command is a life send and last stand can be a life saver. I have a great priest but shit happens and its nice to know I have an extra bunch of hp I can slap on in an emergancy.

The new shieldslam is very nice before it was hard to get the 30 rage with all the sundering and revenging I do normally. Now I can throw it easily into the mix and you can use it enough to actually use the buff removal feature. I use this in strath on those damn mages that absorption shield themselves it seems to do a good job of stripping the shield off them.

The funny thing is with shield slam my dps isn't to horrid either. I actually made out better than a warlock on one raid I did recently. Of course I am better equiped than the warlock but 90% of my gear is slanted totally towards pure tankage stuff ac/defense/hp/stam.

[Jobu]

I'm pretty sure you can eat/drink while stealthed (as in: you start eating/drinking and then go into Stealth/Shadowmeld, you will continue eating/drinking until you move). I do it all the time.

True.

My favorite trick was switching poisons and keeping your stealth. Helps when you run into a caster and want to switch out Instant for Mind-Numbing. Apply poison, drop stealth, apply Shadowmeld, wait for stealth timer to move in on them.

The new rogue changes sound great, all around. Makes me want to dust off my rogue, or roll up a new one for old times sake. The one about Vanish dropping things like Hunter's Mark in particular is exceptional.

[bhodi]

you can apply poisons when stealthed.

[Jobu]

you can apply poisons when stealthed.

Did it change? Last time I played, you could apply the poison, but you would drop out of stealth upon completion of it. Shadowmeld was nice to pop back invisible immediately afterwards so you were never exposed. *shrug* No matter, I guess. Either way.... I liked Shadowmeld. It was nice to have.

[squirrel]

Yes it was changed, poison application no longer breaks stealth.

Yes you can eat/drink stealthed/shadowmelded. As long as you start to eat/drink then hit stealth.

And to add to your indecision no ones mentioned dwarf rogues. Stoneform is awesome for rogues as it allows you to purge poisons or bleeds. Bleeds include warrior dots so you can purge those then vanish. Useful. Not as good as perception/shadowmeld imo but still good.

[bhodi]

OKAY, so we just got cornholed. Fuck blizzard.

I know that I had hinted at specific functionality, and I take that mistake upon myself for making statements based on information which was not final and/or fully intended. Expose Armor will not stack with Sunder Armor in 1.12.

The changes to make it perform as a percentage is still intended, and it should now give a pretty nice boost against high-armor targets versus the current Expose Armor functionality.
We are building a forum of extraordinary magnitude.

Rupture was found to be performing at-par to where we want it to be and will not be changed. While there was certainly some intention initially (and why it was included in my post) to improve or change how it functioned, after careful study it has been decided to not change the Rupture ability. I know that may be a dissapointment, but after careful study, no change was necessary.

Eviscerate is being improved by a new book, allowing a new rank and a general base-damage increase.

Garotte is receiving a damage boost. While final numbers are still unavailable, we are shooting for an approximate 50% damage increase.
We are building a forum of extraordinary magnitude.

Blizzard can lick my balls 50% as much.

[Threash]

The expose armor thing really sucks.  We are still only dps, we bring absolutely nothing else to a raid.  I agree that rupture did not need a buff though, its pretty handy as it is against high armor targets and it keeps rogues from restealthing on you.

[Ironwood]

Um.  That changes everything.

Evis and Rupture still to suck.  Expose armor still useless.

What a crock of shit.

[Chenghiz]

Evis needs help. Rupture is a decent no-threat way to burn CPs on bosses or keep rogues out of stealth, Expose Armor is amazingly useful in PvP. Try it sometime, you hit a lot harder. However making it stack with Sunder is a tricky proposition because if it does, then suddenly all physical damage on bosses will be increased and they'll have to be re-balanced.

[Ironwood]

This is NOT about PvP.

PvP is fucked.  It always has been.  It's fucked, fucked, fucked.

This is about our usefulness in endgame raids.  Right now we don't have any.  ANY. NONE.  I have no fucking idea why you would take a rogue into raids when you could get a hunter or a mage.  And don't give me that mana shit because if you had enough you could do rifle rounds, ffs.

So we want some utility.  And what do we get.  PvP goodness.

Fuck that.