Rogue talent changes

[bhodi]

The review is well underway and we wanted to share a sort of first glimpse into the changes being made for the rogue talent review. Keep in mind that these changes are not complete or final, and the below information is likely to alter as we move into our testing phases. While not everything is listed, the below list encompasses the majority of changes being made in the review.

I'll be working in the weeks to come to get as much additional information as possible, but it is likely that quite a bit of the final information regarding talent changes will not be fully announced until the talent calculators go live. Of course you'll also be able to actually play around with the changes too once the Public Test Realms go up.

I'm going to just list the changes and provide additional information where possible or necessary. Let's get to it.

# The following talents have been removed: Improved Deadly Poison, Improved Distract, Throwing Weapon Specialization, Improved Vanish, and Rapid Concealment.

# Improved Instant Poison is now "Improved Poisons" and increases your chance to apply ALL poisons by 2/4/6/8/10%.

# Rapid Concealment has been merged with Camouflage, by combining these talents you not only get a great talent to start off the tree, but obviously it frees up a number of points to be spent elsewhere.

# Murder will now also apply to all finishing moves. The benefit this will provide to output and attack combinations is fairly straightforward.

# Vile Poisons now gives your poisons a chance to resist dispel effects, in addition to increasing poison damage.

# Improved Kidney Shot has been changed, and will instead increase the damage taken by the target while they are affected by Kidney Shot. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Kidney Shot.

# Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

# Improved Evasion renamed to Endurance, and will add a Sprint cooldown reduction.

# New talent Weapon Expertise in the Combat tree, increases your weapon skill with all melee weapons. The recovery of damage with an increased weapon skill should be a good boost to overall output.

# Initiative is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75% end chance to add an additional combo point.

# Elusiveness is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75 sec cooldown reduction to Evasion, Blind, and Vanish.

# Ghostly Strike now has a reduced Energy cost, the reduction of Energy was enough to make it necessary to also reduce the damage output slightly.

# Improved Garrotes damage reduction will be removed. This is being changed as part of an overall improvement for Garrote.

# Setup is being moved higher up in the tree, becoming a 16 point talent with no prerequisites, helping move the talent in reach of specific builds.

# New talent Heightened Senses in the subtlety tree, increases your Stealth detection, and reduces the chance for you to be hit by spells and ranged attacks.

# Hemorrhage will be moved up in the tree to become a 21 point talent. This should help to place the ability in a more reachable position, and allow for a little more versatility with specific talent builds.

# New talent Deadliness in the Subtlety tree, increases your Attack Power by a percentage.

# Premeditation will have its Energy requirement removed, changed to an instant cast, and range increased. Its cooldown will remain the same. Premeditation will now be pre-reqd by Preperation.

# Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

# Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

# Expose Armor will now reduce armor by a percentage.

I'll be continuing to speak with the designers and collecting as much additional information as possible in the coming weeks.

Thanks for reading.

    Q u o t e:
    I have a few questions.

    Improved Kidney Shot: Will the damage debuff effect monsters that are Immune to stun?



No, I don't believe there will be any dual-purpose for Kidney Shot on a mob that may be immune to stun. The increase to damage isn't an additional debuff as far as I am aware.

    Q u o t e:
    Improved Expose Armor: Are there plans to make this raid friendly?



Such as? I think the new change makes it quite friendly.

    Q u o t e:
    How far up the tree are: Weapon Expertise/Deadliness/Heightened Senses



I can say they're in there somewhere! This would be part of the 'more info to come' rigamarole.

    Q u o t e:
    And finally, are these ALL the talent changes planned?



No, but they do encompass the vast majority currently. The changes won't be 'complete' until 1.12 launches onto live realms after the PTRs. Up to that point we're going to continue evaluating, testing, and tweaking the changes until we're happy with them.
We are building a forum of extraordinary magnitude.

I was hoping everyone would be able to read between the lines, but it seems I may have overestimated you. ;)
We are building a forum of extraordinary magnitude.

That last quote implies sunder armor and expose armor now stacking, making it "raid friendly".

[Ironwood]

Did I miss the change to Eviscerate ?

[bhodi]

Did I miss the change to Eviscerate ?

# Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

[Threash]

A damage increase is not what is needed, scalability is.  A year ago in full green armor with a thrash blade i did way more damage with evicerate than i do today in full epic armor with bwl weapons because the only thing that affects evicerate damage is your targets armor.  If they simply increase the damage on it we will eventually be at the same place, everybodies hps and armor will keep going up while the damage we do is completely static no matter how good our gear is.

Edit: other than that though the changes make me happy in the pants, i didn't mean this to sound like a whine post.  Addressing our kitability with the vanish/sprint improvements and the lack of dps in the sub tree, not to mention giving all weapons access to +weapon skill are all great improvements.

[bhodi]

I'm sure they are aware of it and are making it scale. They seem to be removing all flat numbers from the class, which is good. See expose armor, it's going to be a percentage.

When SS does more than Evis, you know you have a design flaw.

[Ironwood]

Sorry, I'm a tit and can't read properly.  It's hot, so please excuse me.

I would think 'more details to come' addresses scaleability.

Or at least I hope so.

[Merusk]

The more trees come out the more I realize Hunters and Warriors got screwed by going early.  Some of those are changes they had been dead set against ages ago.  Some are just plainly uber.  Happy for rogues, though.. they'll be more hated than hunters again.

I do giggle about the comments in regards to allowing more versitlility in builds.  Rogues had the three most-flexible trees, allowing for a good number of builds.  Moving talents HIGHER in the tree is reducing that versitility, not increasing it.

[bhodi]

The more trees come out the more I realize Hunters and Warriors got screwed by going early.  Some of those are changes they had been dead set against ages ago.  Some are just plainly uber.  Happy for rogues, though.. they'll be more hated than hunters again.

I do giggle about the comments in regards to allowing more versitlility in builds.  Rogues had the three most-flexible trees, allowing for a good number of builds.  Moving talents HIGHER in the tree is reducing that versitility, not increasing it.

When he says higher or up in the tree, he means it costs less to get. Like directory trees they go downward. Hemo is going from 26pt -> 21pt talent. It's increasing versatility.

They've already said they're taking another look at the warriors after this, and of course for the expansion there's going to be a new round of evaluations as 10 more talent points get thrown in the mix. Hunters? Y'all are screwed. Of course, I have no sympathy, since hunters are doing as much damage as rogues at this point.

Edit: Me fail english? That's unpossible!

[Merusk]

Ahh.. see I think "more points" when I hear higher, because that's the definition they used when moving priest stuff around.  Yay for mixing definitions.

[Ironwood]

Did I miss a memo ?

What's wrong with hunters now ?

(Sure, the class was totally shipped without, er, anything, but it's good right now...)

[Chenghiz]

Did I miss a memo ?

What's wrong with hunters now ?

(Sure, the class was totally shipped without, er, anything, but it's good right now...)

It's good in that it has an incredible amount of utility, while simultaneously benefiting from gear that scales with weapons and armor like a melee class and attacking at range. Hunters can rival rogue burst damage, from range, with the ability to keep you at range. This is what is overpowered. it's frustrating for rogues in particular because they have 1 snare that's a poison, and 1 ability to close quickly which is still affected by snares (sprint, while warriors have charge and hamstring).

Overall I'd say the changes so far are good, especially in the fact that a stunlock is no longer looking to be the only and best way of killing.

[Ironwood]

Eh ?

That wasn't what I was asking.  I was directing it at the 'Hunters, y'all are screwed'.  Do you mean against rogues or in general ?

[bhodi]

Sorry that "you're screwed" was directed at the point of hunters and warriors having their reviews early made them less dynamic.. they've said they are revsiting warriors again after rogues, but there's been no mention of hunters ;) What you got is what you get.

[Threash]

I think hunters are ok :P

[Paelos]

The only thing I want as a warrior is the protection tree to be completely overhauled. I'm fine with the arms and fury trees, but for heaven's sake, we're designed tanks and that tree absolutely blows.

The tree starts off well with shield spec and Anticipation. I have no problems with either talent.

Second tier, Imp. Bloodrage is pretty lame. Two points in a talent to get an extra 5 rage? The sad part is that it's tied to last stand, which is a lifesaver. Toughness gives the 10% bonus to armor, so that's uber. Iron Will is stupid. Nobody cares about charms or stuns enough as a tank to blow 5 points in it.

Third Tier, Last Stand is fine, Imp. Shield Block needs work. It's nice that you get the extra block, but you don't really gain much for putting 3 points in it. They should add more blocks with the longer duration. The Imp. Revenge stun is nice, but in larger instances, it doesn't work. I don't know if it adds more threat with each point, but it should. Defiance is uber, anything that adds total threat is nice.

Fourth Tier, Improved Sunder Armor is another talent where the bang for the buck is low. 3 points to reduce 3 rage off the talent. It was better before when the talent added more reduction to armor and more threat. Improved Disarm? 3 points for an extra 3 seconds? That's completely useless. Improved taunt is nice to have a lower cooldown, but I'd rather have that talent decrease enemies abilities to resist it, which would negate needing the quick cooldown in the first place.

Fifth Tier, Improved Shield Wall currently makes it last longer by 5 seconds, but the cooldown on it is hideously long at 30 minutes. If any talent screamed for a cooldown reduction, this one does. Concussion Blow, fine in solo, but it doesn't work on any raid bosses, and if you're speccing this deep in protection you're probably fighting more than a few of those. Improved Shield bash is great with the silence, but it's way too deep in the spec, and frankly it should probably just be part of the ability and not a talent option. Otherwise it's just a stupid little ability that does nothing damage.

Sixth Tier, One handed weapon spec. 10% more damage is fine and good, but we're tanks. The damage output is secondary to our abilities that generate aggro.

Top Tier, Shield Slam. I personally like the talent, but I'd like to see it have more damage scalability based on the quality of the shield. Maybe have it do damage based on your percentage of AC on the shield, or as a multiplier on how much block it does. Something to that effect.

[Ironwood]

I think hunters are ok :P

Holy Fuck.

[kaid]

Garrot is going to have to have its damage upped ALOT before anybody is likely to use it.

[Merusk]

I think hunters are ok :P

I can pull that same trick with our DPS warrior. The difference being he gets weapons that scale ridiculously, making it worse.  Overpower or Mortal Strike with one of those new 80dps weapons will suck. {1}

From that multishot I can tell that hunter's range specced.  Soon as he's in melee he's fucked.  Great for Raids, less so for PvP.  

Sorry that "you're screwed" was directed at the point of hunters and warriors having their reviews early made them less dynamic.. they've said they are revsiting warriors again after rogues, but there's been no mention of hunters ;) What you got is what you get.

Yes, this is what I meant.

I'm not bitching that hunters are underpowered, just that I'd like to see some more varied specs.  There's exactly 2 viable raiding specs, and they have very specific gear parameters.  You spec one way if you have under 450 agi, and another if you have over. That's it. Any other specs and you're gimping yourself and taking up a slot.

 Either way after the reviews are now 95% complete you're still out DPS'd by rogues, mages, warlocks and Fury Warriors at equal gear and playing ability... which puts you back where you were two years ago with people questioning why you're needed other than the few 'ranged-only' fights out there.  (This is an itemization problem, though.  Blizzard has seemed fearful of giving Hunters bows that do anything over the 50dps line.. until Nax.  We'll see how long that lasts.)

PvP is a bit different.  You can give up some melee survivability to do more ranged DPS or give up some range DPS for melee survivability. (Until you hit the gear point that you spec survival and get good melee AND good ranged. This is a flaw.)  If you spec beastmaster you're either PvPing with a 30-second mini-god, farming or a twit.

1)  Our Mega-DPS warlock frequently gets 1500 tick crits on his dots, too.  Even more if he's got a shadow priest along laying-down shadow vuln.  Also, that picture is pre-aimed and multi-shot normilzation.  It's rare to see Aimed Shot crits anywhere near 2500 these days.

[kaid]

I play a hunter as one of my mains as do about half the people in my guild. Hunters are fine good lord the auto shot damage from a marksman speced hunter is sic. The hunters can make our guild mages drool with envy. The mages are better now with talents but it still can be shocking how many big hits hunters can throw down.

One thing that makes some thing hunters are not so good is that on the face of it a hunter is very easy to play. But hunters can be a LOT more powerful if you can learn to use their more subtle powers effectivly.


kaid

[Righ]

I think hunters are ok :P

Against a sundered caster (low armor) mob with some statistically unlikely crits. You could do more burst damage with a rogue, were you to get the same "dice rolls". Not from range, granted. However, this conversation is always fun.

[Threash]

Well i gotta admit merusk does have a point.  Hunters have 2 builds, 5bst/31marks/15surv or 21marks/30surv.  If they are asking for more variety i can understand that, more power though and you'll get bitchslapped.

[bhodi]

From a BWL+ raiding standpoint, our top rogues, DPS wars, mages and warlocks are all about in line with each other in overall damage dealt, with the ranged guys edging out the melee on trash. A hunter and I (a rogue) fight for the top spots, but in general the rest of the good ones are only a bit behind. The problem is that the warlocks and DPS wars pull aggro much easier and don't have any way of getting it off them, so they can't push the damage as aggressively as the rogues/hunters can. Our hunters also pull early on occasion, when that FD gets resisted.

For hunters there's some awesome dps combo that you use, I could dig up the specifics, but it was on the forums a month or two ago. Once our hunters switched to that, you really see a jump.

Of course, all the talents in the world aren't going to help a guy who doesn't have situational awareness, can't hit the dump aggro button fast enough, is out of position, or is autoattacking and then making a sandwich. There is a lot more to it than straight damage, but I do like straight damage as a good meter of who's on the ball and who's not. As an example, the lowest performing guy of any class is generally less than half the damage of the top guy. Some of it is specs, a lot of it is just not being there 100%.

[Xanthippe]

My hunter has never done anywhere near that type of damage.  That hunter must be wearing the very best equipment in game for that kind of damage.

[Threash]

My hunter has never done anywhere near that type of damage.  That hunter must be wearing the very best equipment in game for that kind of damage.

Just a mix of bwl and mc gear.

[bhodi]

His talent build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunters/talents.html?0000000000000000510510305100003320202510303150

His attack:
start
     0 aimed shot
     3 aimed shot fire
     3.small auto shot fires
     3.small multishot fires
     5.52 auto shot fires
     8.04 auto shot fires
     10.56 auto shot fires
  end

Info Linky: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-hunter&t=862216&p=1&tmp=1#post862216

He uses swinger: http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=2123 for the timing help

[Morfiend]

Overall I'd say the changes so far are good, especially in the fact that a stunlock is no longer looking to be the only and best way of killing.

The changes look good. But I would say we will see MORE stunlock rogues, not less. Also, a lot of these chages are for PVP rogues, inless the attack power buff in the sub tree is very good, all the raiding rogues are still going to have to go high in combat. Also, that + to weapons skill is going to own for PVE, so I dont see any way for a raiding rogue to get a hemo build and still be excelling. IMO hunters are fine for PVE (the easist class to level) but for PVP they are a bit over powered, but thats another thread, and we have all ready been around that bush.

[Chenghiz]

My main's a hunter in MC/BWL gear with the 5/31/15 spec. A combination of the new rank of Multishot from AQ20, 3 points in Barrage (+15% damage on Multishot) and 8/8 Giantstalker (+15% Multishot) adds up to some pretty nice Multishot damage on trash mobs, though I still switch to a GS/DS mix for boss fights because of the extra attack power. I've gotten 1700+ multishots and 2500+ aimed shots, but only on low-armor fully sundered targets. In PvP I'd be lucky to get a 1400 multishot on cloth. I really do think hunters are a bit overpowered in PvP for this very reason, and the same for warriors - though quite honestly it's not a matter of how the class works, it's a matter of the gear they get from raid instances. I fear one day we'll have a game where the competition is to see who can hit the insta-gib button first. Hopefully I will have quit far before then.

[Merusk]

<hunter stuff>

Yeah, I use the 10-second cyle and all that.  I'm in the top 5-10 because the other members of the raid rotate out frequently and are using blues, but I can't come anywhere near the top two rogues, both of whom have Gutgore Rippers. Then there's the Fury warrior who, even with all his deaths, still out-dpses the rogues without even trying.  I forget what he's wielding, but last I recalled it was the Halberd off of Mandokir in ZG. Those weapons alone will outdps any bow I can hope to get until BWL.

 Now, perhaps things will flip-flop later but for now I'm solidly behind them, with no hope of great improvement given that the Epic bow is only 7more DPS than my current one, and the X-bow of smiting is 1.4 more dps beyond that.  The burst damage, however, IS crazy from both of those, because of the wacky mechanics Blizzard uses.  However, you have the same problem with warrior abilities and 2-hd weapons, but nobody seems too concerned about buffing those.   

[caladein]

I forget what he's wielding, but last I recalled it was the Halberd off of Mandokir in ZG.

This one?

Anyway, a lot of nice consistency fixes (like making Hemo the competing 21pt. talent it should be) and some stuff that just streamlines the trees a bit more. Changing Imp. KS to a damage buff should be interesting to watch (Premed + Cheap Shot + Hemo -> Imp. KS might be some evil looking normal damage) and the Garrote buff should make that whole Garrote-kite work a little bit better.

On the PvE side, with Hemo and the new Expose Armor, Rogues now come up to help the other physical DPS out so it's good to see some equity there. Will more PvE rogues be getting Hemo? Of course not, heavy Combat for the win .

Improved Sprint and the new Vanish look overpowered at first, and I think my Druid's going to have a bit of a tougher time with Rogues now (especially since I fight them a lot in Bear after the opener), but DoTs still pop you out of Vanish on tick, and they really, really needed Improved Sprint in the first place.

One thing though, Subtlety is really looking more and more like the tree you have to go down for heavy PvP with Heightened Senses (I know I love the Detection bonus on my PvP gloves), and especially if Deadliness proves to be worth anything. I see the revenge of the cookie-cutter 21/0/30 build for PvP.

[bhodi]

<hunter stuff>

Yeah, I use the 10-second cyle and all that.  I'm in the top 5-10 because the other members of the raid rotate out frequently and are using blues, but I can't come anywhere near the top two rogues, both of whom have Gutgore Rippers. Then there's the Fury warrior who, even with all his deaths, still out-dpses the rogues without even trying.  I forget what he's wielding, but last I recalled it was the Halberd off of Mandokir in ZG. Those weapons alone will outdps any bow I can hope to get until BWL.

 Now, perhaps things will flip-flop later but for now I'm solidly behind them, with no hope of great improvement given that the Epic bow is only 7more DPS than my current one, and the X-bow of smiting is 1.4 more dps beyond that.  The burst damage, however, IS crazy from both of those, because of the wacky mechanics Blizzard uses.  However, you have the same problem with warrior abilities and 2-hd weapons, but nobody seems too concerned about buffing those.   

It's true about the war vs rogue, the GGR is a pretty crappy dagger, but the balancing point to that is the fact the war can't shed his aggro. Part of the whole "Buff the rogue" thing crystalized with the damagemeters screenshot on magmadar, 3 full tier2 rogues with perds or higher doing half the DPS of a warrior on magmadar; The war had somewhere above 700dps. Which is all well and good in MC, but will simply get you killed in BWL. Plate or leather, it doesn't matter; if you spin that mob around, you and probably half the raid are dead.

As for hunter weapons, they are totally crappy. You have to realize though, that a lot of your DPS comes from your items; Moreso than a rogue or war which are almost completely weapon dependent. As to why you can't beat rogues wielding GGRs, I have no idea, other than the supposition that you're still in several blues. When everyone's got tier 2, it all evens out.

Quick edit: We have a hemo rogue with the AQ ripper that keeps up with the rest of us. Because Hemo wasn't normalized with the rest of the attacks, rogues still gain more benefit from a slower weapon. With that bonus, Hemo does just as much as SS with specific weapons when you get above ~12-1300AP, PLUS the 7-extra-damage-per-hit extra ~200dps to the raid as a whole. There's no reason not to have at least one hemo rogue.

Another edit: The top performing Hunter's profile: http://ctprofiles.net/1154128   me, for reference:  http://ctprofiles.net/40206

[Morfiend]

Quick edit: We have a hemo rogue with the AQ ripper that keeps up with the rest of us. Because Hemo wasn't normalized with the rest of the attacks, rogues still gain more benefit from a slower weapon. With that bonus, Hemo does just as much as SS with specific weapons when you get above ~12-1300AP, PLUS the 7-extra-damage-per-hit extra ~200dps to the raid as a whole. There's no reason not to have at least one hemo rogue.

Hemo can never keep up with a Combat specced rogue the way it is right now. No matter the gear. If a rogue tells you otherwise, ether he is: A) Lying, because he wants to raid with a PVP spec, or B) Doesnt understand all the math.

Yes, hemo can get close to SS, but its only when using a weapon like AQR, and having 1600ap. But that still doesnt factor in the extra damage combat rogues get from Duel Wield spec, presision, sword spec and aggression. I was hemo for a long time. It is still my favorit spec, but for raiding you are just hurting your guild and gimping your dps. Also, the MOST possible dps the hemo buff adds is 60dps, if all charges are used, since due to energy you can only apply the hemo buff at a certern pace. I have looked in to this very extensivly, as I really wanted to stay hemo and raid, but when it comes down to it, combat spec is better in just about every way for raiding. When you switch to combat all the combat talants make you do about 100-140 dps more, which is more raid dps that you lose by giving up the 60dps from hemo.

If you have enough combat rogues, there is no reason TO bring a hemo rogue.

[Fabricated]

The only thing I want as a warrior is the protection tree to be completely overhauled. I'm fine with the arms and fury trees, but for heaven's sake, we're designed tanks and that tree absolutely blows.

The tree starts off well with shield spec and Anticipation. I have no problems with either talent.

Second tier, Imp. Bloodrage is pretty lame. Two points in a talent to get an extra 5 rage? The sad part is that it's tied to last stand, which is a lifesaver. Toughness gives the 10% bonus to armor, so that's uber. Iron Will is stupid. Nobody cares about charms or stuns enough as a tank to blow 5 points in it.

Third Tier, Last Stand is fine, Imp. Shield Block needs work. It's nice that you get the extra block, but you don't really gain much for putting 3 points in it. They should add more blocks with the longer duration. The Imp. Revenge stun is nice, but in larger instances, it doesn't work. I don't know if it adds more threat with each point, but it should. Defiance is uber, anything that adds total threat is nice.

Fourth Tier, Improved Sunder Armor is another talent where the bang for the buck is low. 3 points to reduce 3 rage off the talent. It was better before when the talent added more reduction to armor and more threat. Improved Disarm? 3 points for an extra 3 seconds? That's completely useless. Improved taunt is nice to have a lower cooldown, but I'd rather have that talent decrease enemies abilities to resist it, which would negate needing the quick cooldown in the first place.

Fifth Tier, Improved Shield Wall currently makes it last longer by 5 seconds, but the cooldown on it is hideously long at 30 minutes. If any talent screamed for a cooldown reduction, this one does. Concussion Blow, fine in solo, but it doesn't work on any raid bosses, and if you're speccing this deep in protection you're probably fighting more than a few of those. Improved Shield bash is great with the silence, but it's way too deep in the spec, and frankly it should probably just be part of the ability and not a talent option. Otherwise it's just a stupid little ability that does nothing damage.

Sixth Tier, One handed weapon spec. 10% more damage is fine and good, but we're tanks. The damage output is secondary to our abilities that generate aggro.

Top Tier, Shield Slam. I personally like the talent, but I'd like to see it have more damage scalability based on the quality of the shield. Maybe have it do damage based on your percentage of AC on the shield, or as a multiplier on how much block it does. Something to that effect.

Shhhhh! I like my 31/5/15 build still being considered plenty good enough to MT! My guild just started doing the 20-mans with another guild and some totally epic'd out fillers from a larger guild, and being MT is blindingly easy on damn near everything in ZG.

[bhodi]

If you have enough combat rogues, there is no reason TO bring a hemo rogue.

Well, when I say keep up I mean not be left in the dust. No, it's not going to beat a human combat swords, but ~75dps less isn't completely gimp, that's only about 20% less, and you do pick up preparation which adds quite a bit of extra versatility. It's good for the AQ fights, it's a decent spec dps wise, and it's a good compromise for the people who like to pvp and raid as well. If you can fill your entire roster with combat, go for it, but the fact is it's hard to find everyone who's willing to do the exact raid-only-gimped-everywhere-else spec, and you can still be not just fairly useful but very useful to the raid with hemo. Unlike some of the other pvp-centric builds, this one you can at least raid with.

Broken-ass human combat swords. I'm not bitter. Nope. They don't have to worry about facing, daggers do less damage, and by simple virtue of their race they get an extra 10% damage on the later bosses. Tall bastards.

[Paelos]

Shhhhh! I like my 31/5/15 build still being considered plenty good enough to MT! My guild just started doing the 20-mans with another guild and some totally epic'd out fillers from a larger guild, and being MT is blindingly easy on damn near everything in ZG.

Yes, tanking ZG has nothing to do with spec. At all. It's really just about making sure you're group isn't retarded enough to pull things off of you when they shouldn't, and CC's. Hell, we've been running it for pretty much five months solid, and it's doable to get the whole thing except Jindo done in less than three hours. It's one of the more fun places in the game.

Unfortunately, spec does come into play in places like BWL and beyond. MC you can do whatever you like, but once we started hunting Rags, I changed over from the arms to prot spec.

[Fabricated]

Shhhhh! I like my 31/5/15 build still being considered plenty good enough to MT! My guild just started doing the 20-mans with another guild and some totally epic'd out fillers from a larger guild, and being MT is blindingly easy on damn near everything in ZG.

Yes, tanking ZG has nothing to do with spec. At all. It's really just about making sure you're group isn't retarded enough to pull things off of you when they shouldn't, and CC's. Hell, we've been running it for pretty much five months solid, and it's doable to get the whole thing except Jindo done in less than three hours. It's one of the more fun places in the game.

Unfortunately, spec does come into play in places like BWL and beyond. MC you can do whatever you like, but once we started hunting Rags, I changed over from the arms to prot spec.

I still see nothing in the protect tree that you'd absolutely NEED outside of defiance, toughness, and shield spec.