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Author Topic: NCSoft fires a bunch of people.  (Read 95718 times)
ForumBot 0.8 beta
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on: June 22, 2006, 10:05:17 PM

NCSoft fires a bunch of people.

Someone posted this on a dev only message board...

NC Soft (US) just had a big layoff today:

80% of GM's
90% of tech support
75% of QA

Numerous other staff, from producers to marketing/pr.

They are blaming the declining subscriber numbers for City of Heroes/COV which has slowly dropped to just over 100k total. Also to blame has been the disaster that is Auto Assault, which has yet to climb over 10k total subscribers since its launch in the third week in April.

Tabula Rasa continues to suck massive amounts of cash, yet still has no release date in sight.


... thus confirming some rumors that had been sent to me. That is all.

Ninja Edit: I feel the NEED to point out that WoW's success was not to blame, though it's very obvious that much of the pain felt is probably a direct result of Blizzard's success. Also, it's fairly arguable that NCSoft has not yet had a runaway hit in America and (obviously?) could use one right now.
Margalis
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Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 11:12:26 PM

Holy shit 10k subs? Wow...just wow...

Obviously this proves that the only games that will do well are games based on Elves!

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
stray
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Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 11:22:07 PM

I was grouping with some people in WoW earlier. The subject turned to MMO's and past games we've played. One guy started talking about CoV, and was trying to warn everyone about it. Like it was the crappiest game he'd ever played. I was surprised enough at that, but then a couple others agreed.

I don't know what their reasoning was, but I found it pretty strange. I wonder how many others there are like that? How in the world can it be that bad of a game to someone (unless Margalis is actually right about the Elves thing). Shit man -- Superjump? Superspeed? Flight? Those alone warrant at least a spot on a "Pretty cool game" list. How can you not like even that?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:24:02 PM by Stray »
angry.bob
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Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 12:30:52 AM

I don't know what their reasoning was, but I found it pretty strange. I wonder how many others there are like that? How in the world can it be that bad of a game to someone (unless Margalis is actually right about the Elves thing). Shit man -- Superjump? Superspeed? Flight? Those alone warrant at least a spot on a "Pretty cool game" list. How can you not like even that?

No suparlewt to get.

Most of NC soft's NA woes could have been solved by Altering the Korean-ness of L2, and the rest could have been solved by removing the grind from CoH, coming out with CoV fater, and focusing on good, balanced PvP. Allso, just making Car Wars Online with an expanded garage/car modification/cutomization subgame instead of whatever the fuck it is that they made would have made Auto Assault insanely good.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
raydeen
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Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 05:19:33 AM

Is 100K subs bad? It's a quarter of what EQ1 had at it's peak. Maybe since WoW raised the sub bar well past Earth's atmosphere and out into the area of Pluto's orbit, 100K seems small but I'd think it's still a respectable number and not worth cutting personel over. But what do I know. CoH/CoV is still my current fav. Good no brainer game.

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
schild
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Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 05:29:07 AM

Don't know how much CoX cost. Obviously 100k is bad though.
Comstar
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Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 05:40:10 AM

Does this include Lum? Isn't he at NCsoft?

Defending the Galaxy, from the Scum of the Universe, with nothing but a flashlight and a tshirt. We need tanks Boo, lots of tanks!
Trippy
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Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 05:44:43 AM

Does this include Lum? Isn't he at NCsoft?
He is, or maybe was.
Trippy
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Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 05:52:50 AM

Is 100K subs bad? It's a quarter of what EQ1 had at it's peak. Maybe since WoW raised the sub bar well past Earth's atmosphere and out into the area of Pluto's orbit, 100K seems small but I'd think it's still a respectable number and not worth cutting personel over. But what do I know. CoH/CoV is still my current fav. Good no brainer game.
It depends on how much staff, if any, they added in anticipation of CoV and AA doing better than they did. 100K subs is certainly a respectable number for a small development team (I'm assuming Cryptic is reasonably small) but if NCSoft hired a lot of people anticipating CoH and CoV would reach, say, 200K - 250K combined and AA would be in the 50K - 75K range then that's just too many people sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

However cutting 90% of tech support suggests something else is going on over there. And from the deep cuts in QA I'm guessing there's a problem with Tabula Rasa as well. You would think the people that QA'd CoV and AA would then just move over to work on TR.
Arrrgh
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Reply #9 on: June 23, 2006, 05:53:19 AM

I don't know what their reasoning was, but I found it pretty strange. I wonder how many others there are like that? How in the world can it be that bad of a game to someone (unless Margalis is actually right about the Elves thing). Shit man -- Superjump? Superspeed? Flight? Those alone warrant at least a spot on a "Pretty cool game" list. How can you not like even that?


Their habit of going on rampages with the nerf bat alienated many people, myself included.
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 06:26:31 AM

standard stuff

lay off CSR's and useless QA.  CSR's because there's less subs than expected.  QA's because the org doesn't care about quality anymore. 

Or more fairly, they have less releases and so less testing needed.
Signe
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Reply #11 on: June 23, 2006, 06:47:03 AM

I cancelled after this last update.  I usually stay subbed to CoH/V, even though I don't play very often.  I am addicted to their character creation!  I remember reading a blurb from Statesman either at the end of beta or just when the game launched that nerfing wouldn't happen in this game.  The non-happening nerfs happened.  For some reason, I was surprised.  I can't imagine how cutting that much of the company's employees would leave enough to see to all their games...  unless, they meant cuts only to the CoH/V staff. 

I like Lum and I hope his job is safe, if this is true.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Strazos
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Reply #12 on: June 23, 2006, 07:06:06 AM

Just...wow.

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Nevermore
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Reply #13 on: June 23, 2006, 08:09:43 AM

NCSoft fires a bunch of people.

They are blaming the declining subscriber numbers for City of Heroes/COV which has slowly dropped to just over 100k total.

I'm very curious about that 100k number.  Where did it come from and who is 'they'?  Subscription numbers for NCSoft titles are public record, 1Q numbers can be obtained from the earnings release posted here.  NCSoft reports a monthly access of 182,858 as of March 06.  Jack Emmert posted here the last time sub numbers came up on the CoH forums that the NCSoft numbers only include paid subscriptions (Jack loses points for referencing Bruce, but Bruce uses NCSoft's numbers so it doesn't really matter).  Did subscriptions 'slowly decline' by 80k in just two months?

I suppose the story could be true.  Actually I don't really doubt the layoffs happened, at least to an extent.  I'm skeptical about the drop in subscribers though.  That would be an enormous drop in numbers in just a couple of months.

Over and out.
Xanthippe
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Reply #14 on: June 23, 2006, 08:13:15 AM

CoX would get me back in a heartbeat if they added any of these things:  loot, crafting, or player housing.

40 should be the max level, or the experience gain curve should be steeper from 20 on.

I would not be  surprised by a drop of 80k since March.  CoV wasn't different enough, the xp grind was still too grindy, the guild housing was very disappointing, the nerfs were disheartening.

And WoW is still pretty shiny.
Lum
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Reply #15 on: June 23, 2006, 08:14:44 AM

I cannot comment on this story for  NDA NDA reasons, however I am still here at NCsoft as is my team and we still plan to make a kickass MMO that you all will mock and deride!
dusematic
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Reply #16 on: June 23, 2006, 08:36:28 AM

There is a company at steak keke?
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #17 on: June 23, 2006, 08:45:55 AM

I cannot comment on this story for  NDA NDA reasons, however I am still here at NCsoft as is my team and we still plan to make a kickass MMO that you all will mock and deride!

Wait, you have a team? You tell people what to do and they do it? No wonder you sold out!
Lantyssa
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Reply #18 on: June 23, 2006, 08:49:35 AM

If the percentages are true, then something must definately be up.  They have had a full year to know how CoH was doing when CoV released, so I am skeptical they made wildly inaccurate assumptions about that franchise.  They may have expected more from AA, but how popular did they expect it to be?  Would cutting CoX support almost in half (which seems too much), plus most of AA, and bits from the other games account for that high of a percentage?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
shiznitz
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Reply #19 on: June 23, 2006, 08:52:14 AM

Maybe Statesman will get off his fucking high horse now and flatten the exp curve. That is the ONLY reason I am not a highly profitable (6-10 hours a month) subscriber.  Moronic assholes. All the fun in CoX is new characters. Embrace it, dev team.

I have never played WoW.
Zane0
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Reply #20 on: June 23, 2006, 09:07:42 AM

I am surprised at CoX's subscription numbers.  CoH had 180k or something, at release, if I recall.

I guess they have lousy retention.  The game is very tempting to jump into, and they launched CoV as well, but when you get there..  I played for a couple months, and I had no real incentive to make friends, no real incentive to join an SG, no shinies to get, and nothing to look forward to but grind in an admittedly entertaining combat game.  Of course, then the combat game gets old, and it's been forever since your last level..

/unsubscribe
Strazos
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Reply #21 on: June 23, 2006, 09:33:24 AM

Diminishing the grind would be enough I think.

But there will never be loot. I would hate to see loot in a game like this - you're a SUPERHERO, so why would you need to pick up "loot"?

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
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AcidCat
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Reply #22 on: June 23, 2006, 09:34:36 AM

Maybe Statesman will get off his fucking high horse now and flatten the exp curve. That is the ONLY reason I am not a highly profitable (6-10 hours a month) subscriber.  Moronic assholes. All the fun in CoX is new characters. Embrace it, dev team.

Agreed. If the game didn't bog down to a slow grind 20+ I would have played a lot longer. Speed that shit up, let people max out multiple characters after a few months, it's all good.
Nevermore
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Reply #23 on: June 23, 2006, 09:42:20 AM

Well, here's an announcement.  The official spin doesn't make it sound as bad as the front page story.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 09:45:31 AM by Nevermore »

Over and out.
Righ
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Reply #24 on: June 23, 2006, 09:53:21 AM

Lum dodged a bullet. Nicely done.

Tabula Rasa is a bit of an albatross, isn't it? NCSoft's best stuff is COH's PvE combat, and Lineage 1's siege PvP. American players do like therir personal achievement indicators more than most. Peacock feathers. One day I'll make a Mummer MMOG.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #25 on: June 23, 2006, 09:58:05 AM

Quote
Also to blame has been the disaster that is Auto Assault, which has yet to climb over 10k total subscribers since its launch in the third week in April.

I wish I could laugh and say "I told you so!" (and I did, early in the beta), but this just makes me sad. It will scare away anyone who wants to make a GOOD car combat game (HINT- SEE CAR WARS KTHX). Diku cars = worst idea evar.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Hoax
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Reply #26 on: June 23, 2006, 10:21:05 AM

Lum dodged a bullet. Nicely done.

Tabula Rasa is a bit of an albatross, isn't it? NCSoft's best stuff is COH's PvE combat, and Lineage 1's siege PvP. American players do like therir personal achievement indicators more than most. Peacock feathers. One day I'll make a Mummer MMOG.

What makes you think this?  It seems that Asian games are the ones that routinely succeed despite MASSIVE grinds.  They are also the people that brought us free-to-play pay money for special shineys and have parlayed it into a successful strategy (it seems).  I'm not saying you are wrong but I am curious what you base that on?  Surely not WoW raid content, afterall if you aren't raiding wtf are you supposed to be doing?

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Chinchilla
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Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 11:16:12 AM

I quit CoH when they made me recreate my character Hellboy.  He looked similar to the Hellboy we know, but was still different enough.  Mine had that ponytail look, no shirt on, and both arms were regular (there was no stone arm option).  He wasn't exactly like him, but semi-similar.  Similar to all the Aquamans, Wonder Womans, and others out there.  Actually... those other ones were practically exact duplicates.

Well after them resetting my characters appearance and emailing me I told them to kiss my butt.  I really enjoyed that character as well, but I was not willing to tolerate that shit.  They told me that he looked semi-similar to him.  My response was "Yeah, similar, but not exact.  What's the problem?  Maybe getting sued over something that is "semi-similar"?  I hope you guys watch out for those Supermans and Wonder Womans I see at the town square all the time." 

Part of me wants to feel for them as they are one of the smaller companies that are left (after Mythic selling out to EA), but part of me doesn't give a flying fuck.

OK, I'll shut up now.  I just had to let that out.  Everything I see CoH I get pissed off.

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Xilren's Twin
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Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 11:34:55 AM

I quit CoH when they made me recreate my character Hellboy.  He looked similar to the Hellboy we know, but was still different enough.  Mine had that ponytail look, no shirt on, and both arms were regular (there was no stone arm option).  He wasn't exactly like him, but semi-similar.  Similar to all the Aquamans, Wonder Womans, and others out there.  Actually... those other ones were practically exact duplicates.

Shoulda kept that one in Chin.  I makes you sound like the morons who get bent b/c they named their character Heywood Jablomey and get tagged by the CS group after playing it for 3 months.
You made a character close enough to a well known one intentionally, knowing you werent supposed to, and they tagged you for it.

"He was speeding too and you didn't pull him over officer" ain't much of a defense.

It's just not that hard to avoid....

Give Cryptic grief over the grind and nerf stuff anyday, but not this.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Miasma
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Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 11:36:13 AM

The GMs, tech support and QA could just be a shift to offshoring the jobs to India or something.  Maybe they kept the senior people in each area to do the training and management.

Or I could put on a tinfoil hat and come up with some wild conspiracy about how EA was thinking about buying NCSoft or Mythic and when they chose Mythic NCSoft had to take drastic action.  But that's silly so I won't.
Ubiq
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Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 11:37:31 AM

I quit CoH when they made me recreate my character Hellboy.  He looked similar to the Hellboy we know, but was still different enough.  Mine had that ponytail look, no shirt on, and both arms were regular (there was no stone arm option).  He wasn't exactly like him, but semi-similar.  Similar to all the Aquamans, Wonder Womans, and others out there.  Actually... those other ones were practically exact duplicates.

Well after them resetting my characters appearance and emailing me I told them to kiss my butt.  I really enjoyed that character as well, but I was not willing to tolerate that shit.  They told me that he looked semi-similar to him.  My response was "Yeah, similar, but not exact.  What's the problem?  Maybe getting sued over something that is "semi-similar"?  I hope you guys watch out for those Supermans and Wonder Womans I see at the town square all the time." 

You do realize that they are forcing those Supermen and Wonder Women to change their names and characters too, right?  As part of a direct result of, say, getting sued by Marvel, right?
Yoru
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Reply #31 on: June 23, 2006, 11:44:32 AM

The GMs, tech support and QA could just be a shift to offshoring the jobs to India or something.  Maybe they kept the senior people in each area to do the training and management.

Bleah, I hope not. I've worked directly with offshored 'resources' and they've been nothing but headaches, blown time, missed deadlines, and rising blood pressures. From what I hear, customers aren't fond of 'em either.
Soln
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Reply #32 on: June 23, 2006, 11:48:01 AM

I quit CoH when they made me recreate my character Hellboy.  He looked similar to the Hellboy we know, but was still different enough.  Mine had that ponytail look, no shirt on, and both arms were regular (there was no stone arm option).  He wasn't exactly like him, but semi-similar.  Similar to all the Aquamans, Wonder Womans, and others out there.  Actually... those other ones were practically exact duplicates.

Well after them resetting my characters appearance and emailing me I told them to kiss my butt.  I really enjoyed that character as well, but I was not willing to tolerate that shit.  They told me that he looked semi-similar to him.  My response was "Yeah, similar, but not exact.  What's the problem?  Maybe getting sued over something that is "semi-similar"?  I hope you guys watch out for those Supermans and Wonder Womans I see at the town square all the time." 

You do realize that they are forcing those Supermen and Wonder Women to change their names and characters too, right?  As part of a direct result of, say, getting sued by Marvel, right?

say what?  info plz
WayAbvPar
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Posts: 19268


Reply #33 on: June 23, 2006, 11:54:43 AM

I quit CoH when they made me recreate my character Hellboy.  He looked similar to the Hellboy we know, but was still different enough.  Mine had that ponytail look, no shirt on, and both arms were regular (there was no stone arm option).  He wasn't exactly like him, but semi-similar.  Similar to all the Aquamans, Wonder Womans, and others out there.  Actually... those other ones were practically exact duplicates.

Well after them resetting my characters appearance and emailing me I told them to kiss my butt.  I really enjoyed that character as well, but I was not willing to tolerate that shit.  They told me that he looked semi-similar to him.  My response was "Yeah, similar, but not exact.  What's the problem?  Maybe getting sued over something that is "semi-similar"?  I hope you guys watch out for those Supermans and Wonder Womans I see at the town square all the time." 

You do realize that they are forcing those Supermen and Wonder Women to change their names and characters too, right?  As part of a direct result of, say, getting sued by Marvel, right?

say what?  info plz

Google is your friend

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Hutch
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Reply #34 on: June 23, 2006, 12:07:19 PM

Quote from: GOOGLE!
Marvel Entertainment, publishers of a wide array of comic books such as Spider-Man, X-Men, and The Hulk, has announced that it has settled its suit with NCsoft and Cryptic Studios, respective publisher and developer of superhero-themed MMORPG City of Heroes. The lawsuit, first filed over a year ago, originated over Marvel's complaints that the game's robust character creation toolkit allowed users to violate Marvel superhero copyrights with lookalike characters and powers.

Though copyright violation is forbidden in the City of Heroes terms of service, Marvel sought to protect its intellectual property in order to prepare for the coming launch of its own MMORPG, to be published by Microsoft in 2007, and due to compete against a DC Comics MMO in development at Sony Online Entertainment and also due out somewhere in that timeframe.

Marvel and NCsoft did not disclose terms of the settlement, but the result appears to allow NCsoft's games -- both City of Heroes and City of Villains, the expansion released in the interim -- to proceed unhindered, allowing players to create characters as they wish, without physical restrictions on what characters look like.

A statement released by NCsoft says that "...no changes to City of Heroes or City of Villains character creation engine are part of the settlement. The parties have agreed that protecting intellectual property rights is critically important and each will continue aggressively to protect such rights in accordance with all applicable laws. […] All parties agree that this case was never about monetary issues and that the fans of their respective products and characters are the winners in this settlement."

That's all fine and dandy in the press and in the various fora, but in practice, they only come down on a character if a GM happens to notice a copyright/TOS violation, or if another player files a complaint. There is no magic anti-Marvel/DC filter in the costume creator. Someone has to notice your costume, and be enough of a busybody to narc.


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