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Author Topic: NCSoft fires a bunch of people.  (Read 95709 times)
stray
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Reply #70 on: June 24, 2006, 01:07:39 PM

Fans of "what"?  :-D
Yoru
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Reply #71 on: June 24, 2006, 01:10:36 PM

Fans of "what"?  :-D

Teh hate? Games? Getting peed on by dev shacks?
caboose82
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Reply #72 on: June 24, 2006, 02:07:45 PM

to Righ in re #61--

I've followed NCsoft stock and the corp for a few years now.  The dive in profits (even while income increases) is the indicator that ought to be shaking up the Koreans (even as Austin babbles about  gratitude to WOW for churning out new players that don't seem to be turning into NCsoft butter...Blizzard is eating NcSoft lunch in Asia, which NcSoft used to own)  Your posting of the stock chart caught my attn.  If you want to really see that chart sizzle, also do the technical anals for 50 day and 200 day MA-- watch how that green line and red line both move downhill.

It's said that a new online game now costs between 15-20M to produce and release.   It seems to me that Tabula Rasa is not going to cost what one game costs, because they've scrapped it once (twice?), started over,  and still can't even commit to a beta date after almost seven years.   (Supposedly Destination Games had Tabula Rasa moving and under development even  before NcSoft bought in).  It could end up costing even more than two ordinary games would have.  If Auto Assault cost fifteen mil, will Tabula Rasa cost 30 Mil?

Is Austin going to cost the Koreans 45-60Million in flop games?  Won't this make 'em angry in Seoul?
Lionhunter
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Reply #73 on: June 24, 2006, 02:44:50 PM

to Righ in re #61--

I've followed NCsoft stock and the corp for a few years now.  The dive in profits (even while income increases) is the indicator that ought to be shaking up the Koreans (even as Austin babbles about  gratitude to WOW for churning out new players that don't seem to be turning into NCsoft butter...Blizzard is eating NcSoft lunch in Asia, which NcSoft used to own)  Your posting of the stock chart caught my attn.  If you want to really see that chart sizzle, also do the technical anals for 50 day and 200 day MA-- watch how that green line and red line both move downhill.

It's said that a new online game now costs between 15-20M to produce and release.   It seems to me that Tabula Rasa is not going to cost what one game costs, because they've scrapped it once (twice?), started over,  and still can't even commit to a beta date after almost seven years.   (Supposedly Destination Games had Tabula Rasa moving and under development even  before NcSoft bought in).  It could end up costing even more than two ordinary games would have.  If Auto Assault cost fifteen mil, will Tabula Rasa cost 30 Mil?

Is Austin going to cost the Koreans 45-60Million in flop games?  Won't this make 'em angry in Seoul?

Garriot: So,i know our game has 20k subs,but come one,a good fanbase grows over time..
NC Soft Guy: KEKEKE WHERE IS RANG RANG

Mourning will release
Righ
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Reply #74 on: June 24, 2006, 02:56:17 PM

If you want to really see that chart sizzle, also do the technical anals for 50 day and 200 day MA-- watch how that green line and red line both move downhill.



Yep. It's certainly not pretty. This is a company that needs some good press, fast.

Quote
If Auto Assault cost fifteen mil, will Tabula Rasa cost 30 Mil?

Tabula Rasa is going to be an expensive one, but I'm hoping that Auto Assault was a cheapo. There's no way that thing could have cost big time MMOG money, is there?

Quote
Is Austin going to cost the Koreans 45-60Million in flop games?  Won't this make 'em angry in Seoul?

Very probably. But they should already be angry over the footie result against Switzerland.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Big Gulp
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Reply #75 on: June 24, 2006, 03:08:16 PM

it could very well spell the end of NCSoft North America mark I if Garriot's huge team cannot perform.

It can't.  It won't.

They've entrusted huge money to a guy who named his primary protagonist "Lord British", for Christ's sake.  A man who owns a castle and runs around dressed up for Renfaire 24/7.  Yeah, he was a pioneer back in the day when a one man operation could be pioneering.  That was in the Telengard days.
Signe
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Reply #76 on: June 24, 2006, 03:09:57 PM

Is he really that goofy?  You make him sound almost furry-like only without the fur.

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Big Gulp
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Reply #77 on: June 24, 2006, 03:12:03 PM

Is he really that goofy? 

You bet your sweet ass, he's that goofy.  Oh, and I left out the "chasing a burglar who broke into his house with a longsword" incident.

The Madness of King Garriott is legendary.
stray
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Reply #78 on: June 24, 2006, 03:17:02 PM

Hell, I'd chase burglars with a longsword too.
Big Gulp
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Reply #79 on: June 24, 2006, 03:21:00 PM

Hell, I'd chase burglars with a longsword too.

The Chinese invented this bizarre substance made of charcoal, saltpeter, and sulphur.  Just recently we've managed to utilize this substance in a device which allows a projectile to be propelled forward at tremendous velocity.  It's all very cutting edge and technical, but trust me, it works.
stray
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Reply #80 on: June 24, 2006, 03:24:06 PM

Yeah, I have one of those. But I hate them. They make me twitch.

True story: My old "alternative school" teacher, Mr. McDaniel pulverized a burglar's knees with a baseball bat once. Even more sad is that McDaniel used to play for the Phillies. Ouch.
Signe
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Reply #81 on: June 24, 2006, 03:42:16 PM

If a burglar broke into my house with a longsword, I'd run away!   tongue

I had heard he was strange but I figured it was just publicity stuff.  Was he always this way or did he get this looney after he became famous?  Or maybe after his fame disappeared?

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stray
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Reply #82 on: June 24, 2006, 03:50:10 PM

Ren-faire stuff 24/7, yeah, that's strange. But I still don't get why chasing a thief with a sword is strange. All guys want to do that shit. Even non fantasy dorks.

Or so I thought...
Big Gulp
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Reply #83 on: June 24, 2006, 03:55:39 PM

All guys want to do that shit. Even non fantasy dorks.

The fact remains that most people don't have longswords and suits of armor laying around to conveniently chase off burglars with.  He probably has 'em in every room of the damned castle.  Hell, he probably holds a scepter when he takes a shit.

There's a fine line between eccentric and crazy, and Garriott is right on the motherfucker.  Now given all you know of the man would you be so quick to invest millions of dollars in his sound judgement?
stray
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Reply #84 on: June 24, 2006, 04:17:40 PM

I wouldn't give him the money simply because it's hard to telll whether he's done enough to warrant it. He seems more like an MMO figurehead than he does an MMO designer.

As for "crazy": I wouldn't care. I'd still let Phil Spector produce my albums too.
Lionhunter
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Reply #85 on: June 24, 2006, 04:18:16 PM

All guys want to do that shit. Even non fantasy dorks.

The fact remains that most people don't have longswords and suits of armor laying around to conveniently chase off burglars with.  He probably has 'em in every room of the damned castle.  Hell, he probably holds a scepter when he takes a shit.

There's a fine line between eccentric and crazy, and Garriott is right on the motherfucker.  Now given all you know of the man would you be so quick to invest millions of dollars in his sound judgement?

yes.

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Reply #86 on: June 24, 2006, 05:10:01 PM

I've never been a Garriot fan...maybe if Tabula Rasa tanks, he'll finally dissappear from the gaming landscape?

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Reply #87 on: June 24, 2006, 06:14:49 PM

The whole game should be double exp. Period. Whole Game.
Wouldn't help.  Just before I quit I did some number crunching, level 28 (I think) took 800 white con minion kills to level to 29.  Level 29 was over 1000.  Sure I oculd kill them in groups of 8 or so and Lt's and such were worth more but that was some retard level grinding.

I quit because I had found my self running in this big square that would respawn groups just before I got there, going 'round and 'round this pattern endlessly.

Double exp would just have pushed the grind back a few more levels.  The whole exp curve needs to be rethought and streamlined.
It's more than just redoing the exp curve. Even if they sped up getting to level 50 then what? Hami raids? Those look more boring than the old-school EQ dragon raids. Base building? Maybe if salvage drops were more predictable it would be more interesting. The early levels are fun because you get new powers rapidly and those powers are generally your "bread and butter" powers by design. As you advance, the time between getting new powers extends greatly, not just because it takes more experience per level but also because past level 32 it's every 3rd level you get a new power instead of every 2nd. For many power sets the later powers are also very situational meaning when you do get a new power you don't really feel that much more powerful, unlike the early levels. And the power sets formerly known as "Epic" don't help matters (yes I know there are exceptions).

So the powers are continually nerfed to slow people down for what purpose? It's not like they need to slow people down cause they can't create end game content fast enough because there's only a trivial amount of end game content. For many die hard players the "end game" is rolling another alt and even for that there are not nearly enough character slots -- they should at least double the number and they should also allow Influence transfers between characters on the same account.
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Reply #88 on: June 24, 2006, 06:34:04 PM

The fact remains that most people don't have longswords and suits of armor laying around to conveniently chase off burglars with.  He probably has 'em in every room of the damned castle.  Hell, he probably holds a scepter when he takes a shit.

In Britain, there are a lot of people who hang those sorts of things on the wall and have suits of armour, although they don't normally wear them, in dusty corners of their homes.  My father has quite a large collection of swords and my father in law has a HUGE stuffed tiger that was presented to him by some African Indonesian tribal leader governor or something on his upstairs landing.  It's a bit alarming when you walk up the stairs.  I don't think he really wanted it but it's hard to say no in those sorts of circumstances and it's not the sort of thing you toss in the rubbish at the end of the drive when you get home.  Maybe Garriot is one of those larpy guys or something.  Just because he's loopy doesn't mean he can't do his job.  (though I think maybe everyone is right about Tabula Rasa.  I didn't realise it's been in the works for such a long time)

Edit:  yes, yes... I know there are no tigers in Africa.  Righ's family has just been to so many places, I get all the stories confuzzled.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 06:40:31 PM by Signe »

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Reply #89 on: June 24, 2006, 10:04:33 PM

I have some decorative swords.  I'd absolutely chase a burglar with one.

Much more effective than chasing them with my decorative pistols.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
stray
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Reply #90 on: June 24, 2006, 10:09:05 PM

Garriott was a fencing student at UT. Pretty cool. He's also a member of "The Society for Creative Anachronism". Probably not that cool.
Signe
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Reply #91 on: June 24, 2006, 10:44:55 PM

I'd have to smack the robber on the head with my Dali print.  Righ could use his bass guitar, I guess.  I don't have a lot of weapony type things in the house, not even decorative ones.  No way I'm using any of my kitchen knives!  They cost a fortune!

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Reply #92 on: June 24, 2006, 11:05:30 PM

Actually, the no tigers in Africa thing was handy. When we moved to Nigeria, the tiger came with us, and it was in the hall. We're talking a huge elderly Sumatran tiger, some nine feet in length, stuffed in the position it was when it was shot (as a maneater, it needed to be) - pouncing with its jaws wide. A burglar who broke into our house one night ran out screaming that he'd seen a monster. The rumours of devils and monsters living in our house quickly circulated, and we weren't bothered by burglars again - unusual for ex-patriates in Lagos, I can assure you.

And since everybody seems to find it odd, I'll say very little about swords... except that they're not the sort of thing you want to bring to another country in your stuff, unless you like long delays and a lot of paperwork. So no swords here.

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Reply #93 on: June 24, 2006, 11:28:00 PM

Actually, the no tigers in Africa thing was handy. When we moved to Nigeria, the tiger came with us, and it was in the hall. We're talking a huge elderly Sumatran tiger, some nine feet in length, stuffed in the position it was when it was shot (as a maneater, it needed to be) - pouncing with its jaws wide. A burglar who broke into our house one night ran out screaming that he'd seen a monster. The rumours of devils and monsters living in our house quickly circulated, and we weren't bothered by burglars again - unusual for ex-patriates in Lagos, I can assure you.

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Reply #94 on: June 25, 2006, 01:55:22 AM

I've never been a Garriot fan...maybe if Tabula Rasa tanks, he'll finally dissappear from the gaming landscape?

Agreed. I dont care how big a fan you were of his early work IMHO his time has come and gone.

NCSoft hired the fruit cake, gave him millions, and now their stock and profits are tanking. Sorry but I dont have much in the way of sympathy for them. Good riddance to the whole lot of 'em.

In good news we could all potentially get rich selling NCSoft shares short right now!

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Reply #95 on: June 25, 2006, 06:34:41 AM

Garriot is pretty out there. I suspect Tabula will prove that Wish's investors were geniuses.

On COX, I popped over to the forums and whatever their subscription rates are, it certainly looks like a game that is very much alive and well. Maybe everyone who plays is just a forum junkie, but there's enthusiasm and interest and a lot of postings. Kind of makes me want to hurt my fingers again and resub.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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Reply #96 on: June 25, 2006, 06:40:21 AM


So the powers are continually nerfed to slow people down for what purpose? It's not like they need to slow people down cause they can't create end game content fast enough because there's only a trivial amount of end game content. For many die hard players the "end game" is rolling another alt and even for that there are not nearly enough character slots -- they should at least double the number and they should also allow Influence transfers between characters on the same account.


The I5 nerfs, and the "Enhancement Diversification" nerf, were rolled out just in time for the CoV launch. The nerfs were put in place to make PvP balancing easier.

They spewed out a big pile of BS about PvE balancing, but anytime a huge, across-the-board power reduction is forced onto the playerbase, and given such a hideous euphemism as "Enhancement Diversification", those of us who've been around for awhile know when we're being lied to.

I agree with your other points. I'd like to have more characters per server myself, although in practical terms, 12 really is enough.
And I'd love to be able to transfer Inf between my characters, without having to get a guildmate to help. The trade window sucks for Inf transfers (limited to 99999 per transaction).

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Reply #97 on: June 25, 2006, 06:59:17 AM

The I5 nerfs, and the "Enhancement Diversification" nerf, were rolled out just in time for the CoV launch. The nerfs were put in place to make PvP balancing easier.

They spewed out a big pile of BS about PvE balancing, but anytime a huge, across-the-board power reduction is forced onto the playerbase, and given such a hideous euphemism as "Enhancement Diversification", those of us who've been around for awhile know when we're being lied to.
There were still a number of nerfs that were specific to PvE such as the massive nerf to the taunt abilities of Tankers combined with the massive nerf to the AoE abilities of Controllers. Sure maybe AoE groups were a wee bit too powerful but who cares? They were lots of fun and we're supposed to be superheroes (THOU SHALT NOT TAKE ON MORE THAN THREE MINIONS AT A TIME, DAMNIT!). And why the fuck would you nerf Fly and by extension Hover? Fly was already the slowest travel power and now you want to make it even slower? That's just retarded. I had to respec out of Siphon Power lowering my DPS (though I still have Fulcrum Shift) just to take Siphon Speed so I could make Hover useful again. *Sigh*
ZariusZer0
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Reply #98 on: June 25, 2006, 07:17:37 AM

I'm a bit of a lurker, but, apparently unlike most people, I'm really looking forward to Tabula Rasa, and hoping it does well. IT's original incarnation didn't interest me at all, but after their revision, and seeing some of the stuff they've had at E3, I think the game could easily be one of the best MMOs coming out in a long time. I hate the repetitive, bland, and slow combat in most MMOs, so having something more fastpaced, tactical and mobile should be a massive improvement, at least for one with a playstyle like mine. Now, I'm no huge Garriott fan. I never played UO, and he doens't seem like anything particularly special, but anyone who tries something new and innovative (or at least different) can't be all bad. (even if he is edging on insanity).
Signe
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Reply #99 on: June 25, 2006, 09:23:38 AM

The nerfs made I5 the most notable update of the game.  That's a bit unfortunate.  The ED just pissed me off.  Their explanation for it was so much bollocks.  In the past, I had gone hot and cold on the game, although playing for about a month at a time was always enough for me.  After that, I always needed a break.  I really think the main reason I keep going back for a few weeks or so after longish breaks, is character creation.  It makes me happy.  Maybe I should just buy Barbie dolls.

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Reply #100 on: June 25, 2006, 10:20:09 AM

Maybe I should just buy Barbie dolls.

Better yet, I just bought my niece a Mr. Potatohead with 50 accessories for right around $10!  Now that's bang for your buck, young missy.
Big Gulp
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Reply #101 on: June 25, 2006, 10:57:07 AM

Garriott was a fencing student at UT. Pretty cool. He's also a member of "The Society for Creative Anachronism". Probably not that cool.

And he's the mayor of Munchkin Village!

(Thanks to the lurker who PMed me with this one.  I may need to compile a flow chart to keep track of all the crazy.)
waylander
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Reply #102 on: June 25, 2006, 01:24:52 PM

LotD was one of the top 4 PVP guilds nominated for the 2006 community awards for CoV, and across the CoH/CoV PVP community in the game has been mentioned repeated in player generated "top ranked" lists. The only reason I bring that up is to make it relevant to the topics I'll mention below.

CoV failed as a PVP expansion because...............

1. The level and content grind

The first 14 levels absolutely suck worse than anything I've ever played except the Shadowbane newbie experience. Since missions are instanced there isn't a reason to have to run all over creation and grab mob aggro when missions could be generated very close together. Prior to level 14, there are no travel powers so there is a lot of dumb downtime involved with running to missions.

The content is the same thing over and over and over and over.  Its the same mobs, mission maps, and objectives for 50 levels. By the time CoV was released, I think it was pretty commonly known that designing like this was a bad idea.

There were a lot of PVP guilds, reputable and otherwise, that came to CoV from other games and didn't last 60 days because of this item #1.

2. Experience Curve

Since most of the COH playerbase apparently didn't care about PVP at all, I have to think that Cryptic was trying to lure the PVP audience in by releasing CoV.  COH was already known for its grind, and maybe Cryptic thought that adding shorter "newspaper" missions in would create a feeling that people were leveling faster. The overall experience curve to level apparently remained the same, and PVPr's were expected to deal with thousands of newspaper missions with the issues listed above in item #1. It basically created a feeling of repetition hell.

If they truly wanted to attract a PVP audience, they would have made leveling much faster. They could also have created PVP XP and PVP Zone based objectives that provided massive XP rewards. They didn't do this, they just used the same COH based system that people hated.

3. PVP Zones

CoV launched with 3 PVP zones, and only 1 of those zones had any sort of reward or worthwhile objective. The zones were too small, virtually no rewards, there was no downtime for PVP death, and the result was nearly 8 months of one side or the other camping right in front of the other side's respawn area.

Also the PVP zones are divided down by level. In the long run I think that's a mistake because the end game is always in the highest level zone, and the lower level zones become ghost towns. This forces new players or old players rerolling to have to grind up in order to get to the good stuff.

With issue 7, they have added exp debt to the PVP zones and that has created a big disincentive for people to PVP until they are done leveling.

4. Base Raids / Items of Power

Nearly a year after CoV release we are still waiting for a key component of the initial product to be available. Base raids are in right now, but they are voluntary and there's no incentive for people to even want to do it at the moment.

5. No Rankings or Recognition

PVPr's love to see who's the official top dog. They obsess over rankings, point systems, K/D Ratio systems, etc. Base raids won or lost can't be hard to do, and some basic scoring or something for the PVP zones shouldn't be rocket science.

6. Respec's

There is little room for error here because your options for fixing your mistakes are limited. If you pick the wrong primary or secondary powers, you have to deal with a grueling reroll. If you need to do the respec mission, its long, boring, and you'll need a 5 man team more often than not.

Because you don't know how something will do until you get to the end game PVP, its a real gamble with time and effort to level a character to 50 and find out you got it wrong.


7. New content, fixes, enhancements, etc take too long

Just like base raids, and 6 months between new Issues, stuff just takes too long for most people to wait around for if its a make or break issue for them.


So the bottom line is that if Cryptic was planning on using CoV to bring in and retain new PVP oriented players in order to grow the overall subscriber base, I am not so sure they accomplished that. I do know that initially they did see a jump in new subscribers, but the things I've mentioned above have caused a majority of those new subs to cancel.

I have seen over 100 people come to CoV and leave within 60 days and many guilds from other games, and their comments related to their departure are pretty much the same. In the community a lot of the competitive PVP guilds all have the same types of issues with recruiting and retaining membership over the long term. It just boils down to a long repetitive grind just to get to a PVP end game, and the PVP end game is too shallow and doesn't do enough to promote, reward, and recognize competition.

The COH/COV community is as big as its going to get, and the only way they are going to grow CoV anymore is to seriously jack up the PVP content while addressing some of the other issues that kill people off before reaching the end game.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 01:33:41 PM by waylander »

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Reply #103 on: June 25, 2006, 02:30:52 PM

FWIW, CoH was still the best MMO launch I've ever seen, or been in. The level of polish and (known) defect count was impressive.  Blizz would equal or top that for their GM, except their networking was/is slack-jawed.
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Reply #104 on: June 25, 2006, 05:26:06 PM

I never played UO, and he doens't seem like anything particularly special, but anyone who tries something new and innovative (or at least different) can't be all bad. (even if he is edging on insanity).
Someone around here thought that about SWG's NGE for quite some time...  In theory it might sound nice, but until it is proven to work I keep a healthy skepticism these days.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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