Scrappers will be the death of tankers

[jpark]

For fun I am trying to compare:

Scrapper (attack / invuln) vs. Tanker (Invuln/ attack)

Where the attack form is open to choice.  I am testing the idea that an "offensive" tanker with enhancement slots on attacks rather than defense may be more usable than an a scrapper with slots on defensive abilities.

I suspect the key is invulnerability.  With slotting you have to cherry pick the abilities you want - which is easy to do with attacks.  You typically are after only a subset of attack forms.  For a defensive ability like Invulnerability - it is almost impossible to cherry pick.  You need them all.  The best solution is to make it your primary skill set and then cherry pick by slotting (enhancments) all to the attack forms.

This is why i am curious to see if an offensive tanker Invlunerability/ attack is "superior" to a scrapper that tries to use invulnerability as a secondary skill set by cherry picking and assigning enhancement slots.

[Sable Blaze]

The most offensive (on the surface at least) secondary for tanks is axe. I my highest toon is a fire/axe tanker. She does play like a very tough scrapper. The main problem is axe is a huge endurance drain. I mean MASSIVE drain. This is primarily why I went fire; so I could emphasize the axe attacks and to get the END recovery from consume.

However, after playing broadsword and (to a lesser degree) katana scrappers, I've seen that it's very difficult to get damage over time equivalent in a tank. You can do burst damage that's pretty devastating, but once you've seen BS in action...well...axe tankers don't look so good. Partially it's a problem with the late blooming tanker, and partially the END issues. You can't get away from the END even with fully slotted Stamina. Scrappers simply use less END per hit, and they hit harder.

Energy secondary for a tank has some possibilities, but only at the very highest levels. My invul/energy tanker isn't anywhere near the levels necessary to see if this is effective or not. Again, the problem is it simply takes too long to get there and you have to play this toon to 30-odd to see what the deal really is. Energy melee is interesting in a twisted sort of way, but it's not a thrill ride playing this toon, though she tanks pretty well.

Broadsword/invul scrappers have some interesting possibilities. It's the most tank-like scrapper build. Hellish damage thanks to hasten/builtup BS primary attacks. You're not a tank, but you can stand there and take some surprising abuse. Using the invul toggles can be tricky, but it's also part of what make the toon fun. Again, Endurance is a real problem, but BS doesn't drain END as fast as axe...and it hits harder.

Of course, half the fun is getting there (unlike what some poor misguided folks think), and these builds can be pretty entertaining. I have fun with all of mine, depending on what I'm in the mood for. However, after playing my BS scrappers (one invul, one regen), my fire/axe tank feels sluggish and--relatively--ineffective. She can wade into some ugly groups, but really needs support for best play. The scrappers can kill faster, so they tend to need less support, but can't wade into +1 groups with bosses like the tank can (well, they can, but it's a lot trickier and you have to be prepared to run at any moment, where it's usually a done deal with the tank...until you run out of END).

A last point about invul, you don't need them all. For a scrapper you simply need the basic damage resistances and US. You can skip elements. Energies are nice, but can be put off quite a while. Invincibility is more for the ACC mods, but it's a handy replacement for TI when you get enough endurance to run it. Tanker invul IS better than scrapper invul. Signicantly so. However, scrapper attacks are much better than tanker ones, even axe.

[Murgos]

I'm working up a Dark/Regen scrapper amd any doubts I might have had from the boards of scrappers being not viable have been utterly squashed so far (lvl 16).

My scrapper can wade into large groups of white/yellow (I mean Hot Zone type groups 9 - 11 of 'em) and walk out the other end practically unscathed or with at worst momentary downtime.  Solo missions with this scrapper are pretty much too easy taking on average 10 minutes or so to complete.  There is no stopping to rest just run through at full speed killing everything in the way.

This build is focusing much more on defense than is probably normal for a scrapper - fully specced will be 6 slotted fighting/tough and fighting/weave plus combat jumping and resiliance (regen line damage resist).  Fully specced out she should have 50% smash/lethal damage resist and 35% damage avoidance (unless I take stealth too, for 45% total damage avoidance, though 35% should be more than enough for anything short of +4 lvl bosses).  End is not a problem so far and probably wont ever be as I will be taking stamina also.

Of course I am only going to take 4 or maybe 5 powers off dark melee but then again most of DM's powers are not in the must have catagory.

This build may not be able to main tank like a tanker but it will, and does, do great damage and take very little damage in return and have almost non-existant downtime.

[Sable Blaze]

Well, most of the really stupid scrapper whining comes from trying to fight +4 level mobs. You WILL get stomped on hard if you're regen in these situations. Especially hard if you're reflexes, hehe.

I'm very happy with my scrappers. They're rapidly becoming my favorite archetype. Just tons of fun to play and you can do almost anything within reason. The ability to just continuously fight is very attactive with regen scrappers.

However, we tried some Positron TFs last night with several regen and dark armor scrappers. It wasn't pretty. Just way too many mobs and--in my opinion--too large of a TF group for having scrappers holding the line. Since it's a Vahz mission, it was expecially bad with the tidal wave of zombie vomit just impossible to deal with (I was wishing for my fire tank at this point, since she's well-nigh immune to zombie barf). I doubt my invul scrapper would have fared any better, since she has no elemental resists to speak of.

The real limitation here was +2 level mobs and just the lack of hit points of the scrappers. Personally, I think full groups in TFs is asking for trouble, but that's just me. I prefer 3-4 in a scrapper group.

[geldonyetich]

I have to agree Regen scrappers are a lot of fun.  Reduced downtime, constant brawling.

I wonder if I should go take my Controller and dump a whole bunch of Endurance Reducers on his powers and see if he becomes more enjoyable.   I'd not be holding my breath, because the big issue my Controller has is his damage output is abysmal, but the reduced downtime it sure to help.

Bah, who am I kidding?  The best way to Solo the Controller I knew from the start:  Don't.    Unless you have incredible patience, Controller is strictly group only.    Though I never did try out a pet...

[Murgos]

From, admittidly limited, experience illusion controllers seem perfectly soloable.  Spectral wounds does uber damage and resets quick enough to be usable without hasten.  Blind is an excellent hold + damage.  Throw in supieror invisibility and then the pets and it sounds pretty groovy.

I got an illusion controller up to level 6, it was about as painless as any blaster or scrapper I ever did.  Not that level 6 is a very good indicator.

[geldonyetich]

Sure, you'll do good damage at level 6.   So did mine.   However, an important thing to realize is all classes do and take roughly equal damage when you're first starting out.   It scales out to their actual capabilities as you get closer to level 20.

By the time your Controller's hit level 17, like mine did, your damage is going to be pretty abysmal.    The saving grace some Controllers have is that pet damage is relatively good.   However, I'm hearing that second hand, having not tried that myself.

[Alkiera]

Especially hard if you're reflexes, hehe.

They're apparently changing some stuff in the upcoming content patch to make reflexes-style high defense more equivilent to the usefulness of resistances.  Whether it works or not remains to be seen.

The best way to Solo the Controller I knew from the start: Don't. Unless you have incredible patience, Controller is strictly group only.

And if your patience is that good, you are probably already enjoying Lineage II.

Admittedly, I also played a mind controller, and I'm pretty sure a power pool with 'Hurl Damp Tissue' as a power would probably do damage faster than mind control powers.  And I have yet to see or hear of a situation in CoH where 'sleep' effects are useful, and mind control has boatloads of them.  I deleted 'Alkiera', my mind controller, in order to rebuild her as something else.  I got to 10, and couldn't take it anymore.

--
Alkiera

[jpark]

Sable - thanks for those comments.  Ironically, I am working on a tank Invuln/Energy build pursuant to your comments.

Energy intrigues me because:

Energy Transfer = Absorb pain? (Empathy Defender)

I don't mean it literally - I am referring to effectiveness.  Absorb pain is the best single target heal there is and does so by using some of the caster's hit points.  It seems Energy transfer causes damage by using some of the Tank's hit points - which makes me suspect this could be a highly effective attack form that is END friendly for the tank.

But I am just speculating at this point.

[Sable Blaze]

I've heard energy transfer is simply sick damage. Very hard hitting, and the hit point drain is relatively insignificant. That's what had me intrigued by the build.

The problem is getting to it. I mean, this tank build isn't the most fun to play in your teens. Lack of heavy hitting attacks mean fights drag on forever. END cost is lowish, but with battles lasting as long as they do, you'll be lucky to finish a single +1 boss/minion group before a BS/invul scrapper finishes a whole mission. I think mid-20s would be better with a maxed out stamina, but haven't had the wherewithal to play enough to find out, hehe.

It's an amusing class to watch fight, though. Which is good, since you'll be watching those glowing fists a LOT, considering how slowly the tank kills. I should play mine more--she's probably my best costume design effort to date--but if I'm kicking a mort around for 5 minutes, I can't help but thinking he'd have been dead in 5 seconds facing ANY of my scrappers or my axe tanks. Patience will definately be a virtue with this build.

[CmdrSlack]

Bah, who am I kidding?  The best way to Solo the Controller I knew from the start:  Don't.    Unless you have incredible patience, Controller is strictly group only.    Though I never did try out a pet...

Controllers are wicked fun to play.  I haven't found a build that is as much fun to play until I made my new blaster.  The thing is that yes, we need groups to play.  I CAN solo with Seismic Shift now that I've added in some powers from the fighting pool.  However, until he has boxing and kick, his main damage powers are a whopping two (brawl really doesn't count).  I'm tempted to make a gravity controller just cause I wonder how good the damage on that "throw shit at your enemy" power is.  

What is fun about controllers (at least the lockdown type like Seismic) is that you get to rapidly cycle thru targets trying to lockdown as many mobs as possible.  With my fire/energy blaster (now that I have hover) it's very much the same.  At least while soloing.  With a group, especially with other blasters, I don't find myself able to lay down as much broad and diverse whoopass because others are doing just fine at killing.

Next "cause I don't play early enough to see you guys who have mostly outlevelled me" project is a dark/regen scrapper I currently have at lv 5.  I managed to get a blaster to 13.5 in one day, so I'm guessing I can do the same with a scrapper if I play my catass cards right.

[jpark]

Sable,

Ya for many tank builds the real test comes at the end - level 30+ since that is when they get abilities of greater offensive interest.  So the lengthy combats...

I have a level 21 Empathy Defender (main) and I notice his Fortitude cast (to hits, damage, and hit points all single target buffed woot!) may offer the same benefits regardless the level of the recipient.  In other words - great powerleveling tool.  Slot with some damage enhancements, and tanker damage starts to really look up when they receive this buff.

[Sable Blaze]

Yah, some support really makes the tank shine. It also shows up why the scrapper is so popular and so much fun, regen in particular. They can simply maintain the mayhem for long periods of time, or even indefinately if you build for it.

Tanks pretty much have to plot out a fight ahead of time, and if something goes wrong...well...just not much you can do about it other than take it. Of course, you can take quite a bit...

It's the feel of the classes in the game. Scrappers are very active classes, constantly busy (well, most of them) and very effective from the getgo. Tankers feel ponderous and slow, though very tough. Their ability to dish out punishment though is largely constrained by one power pool ability and the fact you don't get it until lvl20. Then you have to slot it up for any kind of real return.

I'm probably going to have to rethink some things with my fire/axe tank. Seeing how my scrappers perform gives you some ideas about how to improve tanker flexibility. The level 50 cap should help a lot in this regard. Hasten, buildup, and consume are pretty much key. Slotting them for the best synergy seems to be the correct thing right now. As for the invul/energy...no clue. This one...well...it needs more time than I have for the game right now.

[jpark]

About Build-up...

Which both scrappers and tanks get:

You think this buff adds a fixed amount to damage or a percent?

It makes a difference.  If the amount is fixed, then you want to use attacks with a fast recharge.  If the amount is a percent, it makes no difference really which attack you use imo.

The ponderous nature of tanks is a problem.  Someone on these boards said it right that in this regard CoH has not advanced this class far (ergo, that's why its fun to slot them for offense).  WoW has promised to make tanks far more engaging - and reports seem to reflect that.

[Daydreamer]

Its fixed at roughly 50%.  I've tested it.

[Sable Blaze]

Yah, it's about 50%. For an ability that only lasts a few seconds, it can make all the difference in the world--especially for hard hitting classes.

I won't get into which abilities seem to get the most out of it, there's too many variables. I will say the ability to one-shot certain annoying enemies (vahz zombies) with broadsword is a god-send. In a similar vein, the immense front-loaded damage of BS is a real tactical advantage, especially when duoed with another BS scrapper. Very tough, annoying enemies can be dropped almost instantly making the rest of the fight relatively trivial. Of course, one scrapper getting knocked down in the first seconds of the fight can make what looked like a walkover a real knock-down drag-out...

It seems attack animations are the real limiting factor on how many builtup attacks you can get off. Some experimentation will reveal what order of attacks works best, but sometimes the mobs you fight will dictate this. Most of my experience with buildup is with BS, katana, and axe.

Hasten makes a huge difference as well. More attacks, and, more importantly, a fast buildup recycle in large or long fights. I have yet to have a boss last two buildups, they usually are at about 25% after one attack cycle (3-4 attacks with BS, 4-5 with katana).

[Grind]

Sable Blaze,

Given the changes made, I see **/Invulnerability as potentially being optimal for fun and defense.

How are your defenses post level 30 versus equivalent level tankers - Do you do traditional tanking and have you taken much of the invulnerability secondary powers in your Broad Sword character?


My idea would be to kill my invuln/stone tanker and create a spines/invuln scrapper. I would maintain aggro using Provoke, Invoke panic, and DoTs. But I am uncertain how effective the defenses would be on this char versus my invulnerabilty tanker - How much of a degradation in defenses would there be going from invuln as a primary to a secondary?


Grind

Well, I thought it might be worthwhile to post an update. I did stop playing my invuln/Stone Tanker and started a new character named Spines. He is a Spines/Invuln scrapper and a real blast to play.

What I have found is that the scrapper gets the same powers of a tanker but at a much later time (ex invincibilty comes at level 28 rather than 18) and because of the lowered hps, you have more volatility in fights, but by and large, the defense is similar, i.e. within the range of 15% as posted by Sable earlier.

What I do get in retrun is much greater aggro control and vast amounts of it (via constant damage to all mobs nearby) with four AOEs to the build which I will fully slot you get the attention that provoke misses.

I also get sick amounts of AoE damage. At level 23 I am still comparable to the damage output of a blaster and my survivability is way higher (thought I suspect in future, the blaster will outstrip my damage).

Best ability of the template is Quills. Helps hold aggro enormously, animation is every 1.5 seconds, and continues when I am knocked back and various other disabilities, and given its low endurance costs, allows me to attack while resting for more heavier attacks. Very very fun to play.

I will keep you posted as to the templates effectiveness once I get invincibility - but I suspect that this character is far superior to my tanker and will only get better with the rest of the resist pool and two more AoE attacks.

Cheers,
Grind.

[Sable Blaze]

Remember that Invincibility also has a slight taunt factor. This cuts both ways, though. It's handy for keeping the vermin occupied with you and not eating blasters. But it'll alert mobs when you're incoming if you have it running (i.e. it'll get you mezzed before you can get US up). One alternative is to fully slot Unstoppable and support it with a fully slotted Hasten and Dull Pain. This does away with the mobility issues with US. As spines, though, I doubt this will matter to you.

Spines is very group friendly...for a scrapper. I've been seeing an awful lot of them lately, and the ability to go under US and just fire off AoEs is quite an advantage in blaster-heavy groups. I have a friend who's spines/dark armor and he is fun to watch.

However, I still prefer broadsword. I love those huge hits and one-shotting yellow minions with a lucky crit. BS is a true boss-killing primary, which is a role I enjoy quite a bit.

[Grind]

Yeah, very group friendly. I went to DA last night for about 40 mins and was able to level to 23 without risk. Upon reaching 24 I took teleport and slotted it with a reduce endurance SO and now just tp from villan group to villan group.

I am hoping that invincibility with get me even more aggro since I eventually want to aggro everything if needed and perform the tank duties.

At 26 i get my third AoE attack and coupled with provoke and invincibility, should have 5 ways then to gain aggro en masse without having to taunt or hit with lunge. I am actually finding that I am using provoke less and less with this build.

I have also got a lot of attention and see many more builds (and similar costumes) entering the server. With two fortitudes running (from my two friends) and one of them having leadership assault, my quills does 14 to 25 points of damage per mob per animation. Animation happens about every 1.5 seconds. The damage to whole groups of mobs (i.e. 8+) per tick is PHENOMENAL. couple a endurance reduction SO on the quills and it runs without draining endurance on the build (I have stamina but have not even slotted it yet).

I think the spines invuln template is one kick arse template, very uber and fun to play.

Cheers,
Grind

[HaemishM]

Spines is one of the most underrated power sets for scrappers. I think it's the only scrapper type that gets that many AOE's. I know a martial arts scrapper only gets one, at like 26 I think.

[kaid]

Spines is a really nice powerset. It gives a scrapper a good variety of aoes which most lack as well as the ability to use a decent ranged attack that can ROOT. On top of all that most of their powers are about as kind to end usage as anything I have ever tried in the game which makes for a fast paced fun little brawler.

Spines does not quite have the shock damage of some others but it is overall a very spiffy power set.

Kaid

[Big Gulp]

Spines is a really nice powerset.

The only problem being that spines look like deep fried ass.  When every move you do results in stupid looking bone thingys sticking willy nilly out of your body it's frankly just not a power I'd want.

[Sable Blaze]

One thing about spines is it lacks a really heavy-hitting killing attack. It's not really a point target powerset. It's about area of effect. This is good stuff, but there are times you have to drop an individual target RIGHT NOW and spines won't do that for you (instead you root it in place and let someone else worry about it).

Really, when you get down to it most of the scrapper primaries are very good. MA is somewhat problematic, but the rest work very well indeed. They all have somewhat different strengths that will dictate different playstyles, but they all work.

[Sky]

To me, spines isn't real superhero-ey. When I see spines players, I tend to think of them as mmog players, not comics fans. Not a bad thing of itself, just not for me.

[daveNYC]

I think that's just because the spines look so stupid.

[jpark]

To me, spines isn't real superhero-ey. When I see spines players, I tend to think of them as mmog players, not comics fans. Not a bad thing of itself, just not for me.

I hear ya.  In this case the poster Grind has done a good job on appearance I think.  He has a muscular medevil appearance that is all black with bright yellow magic runes down the length of his body.  When the spines appear they are white, and sit nicely on the avatar.

In this case I think the asthetics worked out.  Grind  maybe working on an alt.. Spine(less) :P

[daveNYC]

You can't change the color of the spikes can you?  That's a bit of an oversight on the design end.

[Big Gulp]

You can't change the color of the spikes can you?  That's a bit of an oversight on the design end.

Just like you can't adjust what claws look like; there are thousands of Wolverine clones running around out there.

Were I Cryptic that'd be one of the major things I'd be working on for an update.  They've got a phenomenal character creation tool, but all of the power effects look similar.  It's fairly glaring, and after a while it does get boring.  Just a cosmetic change to power appearance would spice up the game a hell of a lot.

[daveNYC]

Different styles of claws would be nice, I admit.  The bit with the spikes though, it's not just the style of them (hey! my entire fucking skeleton is outside) its the fact that the are large, they stay out for a while, and the color is constant.  The claws, while boring, are at least on the small side.  The spikes are huge.  The ability to color them would have been nice.

[HaemishM]

I still can't understand why they included spikes as an entire primary power set as it is. I mean, how many superheroes do you know that have similar powers? I can think of one, Marrow from the X-Men/now Weapon X. And she wasn't all that popular from what I know. So why go to the trouble?

Not knocking the powerset, just can't think of anyone else that really fits it in the genre's lore.

[schild]

They wanted to be original with at least ONE power I'm sure. All the rest were about as original as a pb&j. They really should've just stolen all the powersets from xmen. But I only say that because I'd rather have had access to Jubilee's powerset rather than illusion, which isn't really illusionary at all.

[Big Gulp]

All the rest were about as original as a pb&j.

Yeah, but really, who wants originality in this genre?  I just wanted a four color comic book game with lots of whiz bang stuff.  Mission accomplished.  Freedom Force didn't really employ any "original" powers either, and it didn't need to.

My wish list goes like this:

1)Cosmetic choices for existing powersets.

2)New powersets

3)Destructible terrain (I know, I know, almost definitely not doable, but perhaps on instanced outdoors missions?)

4) New travel powers (Like super swimming if they ever introduce underwater zones, web/line swinging, tunneling, etc)

5) Capes, must have capes!

6) Changeable body types, so you can have transformations like characters that can grow, shrink, scream "Shazam!" and be transformed into a hulking engine of destruction, etc.

7) More body types.  Why oh why can't I create The Potbellied Avenger?  How about gigantic, but really fat characters?  Why no gigantic female models?

[Grind]

You guys are bang on a few things:
1. Spine characters are extremely hard to find a costume/look that it goes with and still looks like a superhero. It took me hours and a several playing attempts to get it right. But with the right look, it does look unique and stylish.
2. NO killer one-shots. I have lunge which can do over a hundred, but I am really interested in the AoEs for aggro control. I built this char hoping AoE would solve my issue of getting aggro since my invuln tanker could not keep it with single, slow attacks and the provoke change. So far so good.
3. If we could colour our spines, I would colour mine glossy ebony to match the character better than plain white with a pinkish tinge. Also tip the very ends with yellow to match my magic runes and to represent magic type poison. That would be very cool. It is too bad I am not beter with capturing and posting images or I would post my look and let you guys judge though.

Cheers,
Grind

[Big Gulp]

I built this char hoping AoE would solve my issue of getting aggro since my invuln tanker could not keep it with single, slow attacks and the provoke change.

You're thinking about how to keep agro with an active taunt and damage output, and that's where you're wrong.  I play an Invuln tanker and with invincibility (area effect taunt that also gives huge defense and accuracy bonuses) and unyielding stance I can out-control controllers.

I only use taunt for the stragglers that are on the periphery, and besides, it's a better taunt than provoke is and it's in your primary/secondary power pool.  Why open up a tertiary pool for an inferior taunt when you could be opening up actually useful pools like fitness and leadership?

[Sable Blaze]

Well, one problem with invincibility is scrappers don't get it until lvl28. If you really want to do the pocket-tank thing, you have to do something prior to that level.

Personally, I have no use for provoke. A whole power pool that's otherwise completely useless just for this miserable excuse? Although I"m invul, I don't feel particularily compelled to save blasters from their own excesses. I don't care for the whole provoke-bot playstyle that's been foisted on tankers. That's a very large reason I made a BS/invul scrapper.

Still, that's a call you have to make for yourself. Spines/invul can rise to this particular calling. Just don't forget your fighting pool...