Scrappers will be the death of tankers

[Grind]

Scrappers are the damage outputters and tankers the damage absorbers.

Now I may be offbase but I can see the potential for an increasing issue with tankers and scrapper differences and please correct me if I am wrong.

Currently, it seems scrappers can arguably get close to tanker level defence but only one tanker build prenerf could get close to a scrappers damage output. As a direct result of this, there are way more scrappers than tankers and fire tanks > invulnerabilty ss tanks > all other tanks.

Crossover builds (invulnerabilty or reflex scrappers and fire tanks) allows people to optimize - high damage output, total control of mobs via provoke, and very high damage resistance/avoidance.

Thus comes nerfing. Developers might incorrectly react by reducing provoke's effectiveness in combat (via recast times etc.), increasing mobs ability to damage/avoid damage from characters lower level then them (i.e. revert to EQ style mobs) and then increase damage output of scrappers to placate the many many scrapper population base (a la EQ and druid placating over the years)

The result of this could be something that happened to EQ and classes there:

Scrappers see their reason for being = damage output only and most hand to hand blaster templates can easily outdamage them already.

After nerfing fire tanks all tanks may be less effective and less played - no damage output, no way endure a combat if soloing, no damage mitigation and no control of mobs in groups or runners in solo play with slow timers. They will suffer the same fate as did the warrior in EQ (until the release of GoD).

Maybe as an alternative to deal with this potential issue:

1. Do not allow crossover templates (i.e. scrappers should not be invulnerable and fire tanks should not have damage output rivalling scrappers and blasters) that can have best of both worlds to begin with.

2. Make provoke a tanker only ability OR have its effectiveness be much higher than other classes via general pool choices similar to the way leadership skills are much more effective with defender templates.


Can people provide some feedback who are in these builds at levels higher than 30 - I would value your feedback/input.

Cheers,
Grind

[geldonyetich]

Personally, I think the Tanker's real issue is that they're comparitively somewhat boring.   After all, you're focused on fairly passive gameplay - taking damage.   But then, I haven't really played a Tanker all that high up - they do have some interesting looking crowd control powers, like Mud Pots.

I'm surprised Scrappers are finding reason to whine.   They're a very solid, well rounded Archetype.  Don't fool yourself: Scrappers are not *nearly* as durable as Tankers, especially when a Tanker can combine damage absorption powers and take 0% damage.   (It'll be bumped up to 10% minimum damage in an upcoming patch.)   However, that Scrappers can take abuse at all is more than most classes are capable of.   Scrappers have to be the most Solo-Capable class in the game.

Scrappers should pipe down and let Controllers step up to the plate.   I really, really wish I could solo with my main Controller.   However, at level 17 my damage output is abysmal - it takes me a full minute to take down an even con minion.    Unfortunately, my main Controller is a Mind Controller and never gets pets, so that damage output is going to *stay* down.   Confuse isn't an answer, as damage done by confused foes does not count towards experience earnings.

[jpark]

I think this goes to a fundamental problem that has plagued many MMORPGS.  In Everquest should a Paladin tank as well as a warrior?  In shadowbane should a barbarian tank as well as a warrior?

In CoH right off the bat I equated the Paladin/barbarian/shadowknight classes to a scrapper in CoH.  Not exactly the best damage dealer, not exactly a tank.

These melee hybrid classes are problematic.  They either displace the warrior or get they get displaced by the warrior.  The balance just does not seem to be achievable - at least so far.

The ideal situation that represents balance is zerging.  The tank controls most but not all of the villians and the scrapper offtanks.  That's is their best role I think.  Currently that does not come up too often though.

But right now - I am starting to think the money is on the scrapper - X / invulnerability build.  It will replace the tank unless a serious high end to the game is introduced.

[Sable Blaze]

I play both. To be blunt, this issue is horseshit. There's no controversy here, aside from some "grass is greener" whining from board trolls and related malcontents.

I play a fire/axe tanker, an ice/axe tanker (if any subclass has issues, it's this one), an invul/energy tanker, a katana/regen scrapper, and a broadsword/invul scrapper. All these builds have strengths and weaknesses. They all can find roles to play in any group I'm inclined to join, and they're all fun. They also all overlap to varying degrees.

If you think tanks can't do damage, then you've never made a proper axe tank. Fire is preferred for END recovery (and not because of an underbalanced skill), but any axe secondary that is heavily enhanced will do enormous--almost scrapper level--damage. I play scrappers, and axe compares very well with broadsword. You'll never have the ability to sustain damage output like a regen scrapper, but you can put out frontloaded damage as well as any. Fire is simply best at maintaining it.

Invul as a secondary skill lacks some of the extreme ability of it as a primary. However, an invul scrapper can tank pretty well...at later levels. They still lack hit points, though. They can deal with small groups of enemies, but nothing like what you'd see in a TF mission. They also tend to have the same endurance issues as tankers.

These classes are customizable to a large degree. If you're smart (operative word here) you can make your own role. If you're a bandwagoning mouth-breather, well, then you post senseless whines on the CoH forums. The tanker forums at CoH.com are a disgrace and it's almost embarrassing to admit to being one after reading that drivel.

[HaemishM]

I think this is a bullshit whine controversy. The only scrapper build that I think might approach a tanker in "tankability" is the regen scrapper (and maybe invuln, but I haven't looked at that build). As a marital arts/super reflexes scrapper, I can attest that reflexes WILL NEVER be as effective as a tankers extra hit points and damage resistance abilities. It just will not.

Tankers are just not as dynamic as the scrapper, especially at lower levels. But they damn sure can take a helluva lot more punishment than the scrapper, and it will only go up as the levels increase. A scrapper might be an ok tank in a pinch, but will never equal a tank in taking damage. Ever.

[Delf]

What he ^ said.

Qua Fin Ti
Katana/Regen scrapper

[Big Gulp]

A scrapper might be an ok tank in a pinch, but will never equal a tank in taking damage. Ever.

Word.  At level 24 I have over 1000 hit points.  On top of that, I've got physical, energy, and element damage reduction along with combat jump and invincibility.  I can and have waded into a sea of oranges and reds, slapped down an AOE taunt, and taken the beating (with some heals, natch) while every one else wittles around the perimeter.  A group of whites can forget about substantially decreasing my hit points.

I know of no other class besides the tanker that can even come close to pulling that off.  Granted, my damage output is for shit, but I can take an ungodly beating for my level.

[Sable Blaze]

At least until the next patch and the 90% cap on damage reduction.

Personally, I don't really care how much damage I take, as long as it's managable. Uncontrolled incoming damage is the killer. This is the concept behind the regen secondary of the scrapper. The problem is they don't have the damage pool to really soak up big hits.

Invul scrappers actually do better, but it's still a secondary skill and they don't get the abilities themselves as quickly as a tank. I play both a invul/energy tanker and a broadsword/invul scrapper and the damage taken is very different between the two. Basically, when something does get past invulnerablity, there's just less there on the other side to soak it up. It's much easier to get in over your head with the scrapper, where the tank can usually either take or take enough to get clear if things really furball.

Bottom line: scrappers can tank, but they aren't tankers. They just can't handle the extreme situations. They are skirmishers and play like it.

[SurfD]

From what I understand, one of the big issues with scrappers was an insanely imbalancing combination of powers accheviable only at near max level. (which has since been addresse in the current patch)

It went something like this:
Get Moment of Glory (sucks up butloads of HP, makes you nigh invincible), Instant Healing, and the Health/Stamina from Fitness.   Instant Healing used to work while Moment of Glory was active, meaning the HP hit became meaningless, and when properly slotted you could have it running practicly indefinately.

Storys of high level regen Scrappers who were basicly invincible to everything their level, while still retaining damage output was what had people pissed.  Now that IH does not work while MoG is active, the whining has commenced.

Add in the Damage Resistance cap and now tankers will be important, because scrappers might be able to rival their defence rate, but wont have nearly the HP count to survive.

[stray]

Since they both represent damage mitigation, I'm more concerned with Tanker/Controller differences than I am with Tanker/Scrapper differences...Which is why I don't think the nerf to Provoke is that much of a problem. It was getting a little too close to Controller territory.

Since Tanks also share similarities with Scrappers (damage dealing), they shouldn't be doing the Controller's job even more reliably than Controllers. Tanks should be doing the jobs of Scrappers and Controllers halfassed, yet with the most survivabilty of all three. That's a good tradeoff. They shouldn't be able to depart from that role to the point where it doesn't even apply at least in some way.

In the case of Burn + Provoke, it was putting both Scrappers and Controllers to shame. Since this is a game with archetypes, the lines have to be drawn somewhere.

Besides, Tanks now only have to ACC slot 1 CCing power, and they still rank 3rd in dmg dealing -- with the hitpoints to boot. Tanks have the best of both worlds. Tanks and Blasters are probably the only well thought out and complete archetypes to play. It's the others that need a little improvement.

[Grind]

SurfD,

Thank you for your remarks. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for - what has happened at the high end to scrapper and tanker builds.

I have more faith in the tanker template again.

To continue in the 30s then with my tanker, I will slot provoke two more times with increase taunt length and take fear to control true mob zergs that are incoming to the groups I am in.

Grind

[Sable Blaze]

Provoke still works OK, just don't count on it to keep +4 level mobs from running amok. If you're dealing with those sorts of situations, you'd better have a controller.

I've got one increase duration enhancement in my own provoke and it even did pretty much what it was supposed to on purple con +2 lvl mobs. Of course, I had a controller in my group, so provoke failures weren't very noticable. Still, blasters need to learn to do more than simply burn the END bar. I expect them to deal with their own yardtrash if they attract its attention, however.

We don't streetfight +4 level mobs anymore, though.

[Secundo]

Unless you have played your char well into the 20´s you don't know shit about how this has changed the game.
Provoke was THE team saver power you could always rely on. I have a 32 fire/mace tanker and I can survive just fine on my own. But guess who's gonna die? Yes that's right, those whiny controllers..
They draw insane aggro with their cc and start to get 1 shotted in their 20´s. Hell, I have even seen it happen in Perez to a 10 controller who got zapped by clockworks. Insta death because the tank had no way to get aggro. It will get worse higher up.

The Burn nerf was expected but overdone. The main fault with it now is that the area decreased so mobs can still melee you outside of it.

Who needs controllers, defenders etc anyway? I team with 1 MA/regen scrapper and since the purple mob invincible patch we can kill anything that is killable. The poor group xp bonus makes non damage dealers very undesireable since we can no longer do big game hunts.

I'm just gonna laugh at all the people dieng now. I know I will not die because of this nerf.

The game was very fun with alot of options for different playstyles and I had plans to lvl plenty of chars on several servers if need be. Now it's just a grind. A boring grind.

[CmdrSlack]

Hate to break it to you, chief, but as a controller, I don't find myself one shotted very often.  

And before you say I don't know shit, I've played an earth/storm controller into the 20s so I know exactly how to get one killed.

While you might not NEED a controller, having played scrappers and controllers, I can say that fights sure as hell seem to go much easier with a controller locking down groups.

Now that it's slotted with SO accuracy enhancements, my mass disorient power (stalagmites) keeps entire groups out of commission until I can lay down individual fossilizes on each priority mob.  The only time I find myself getting killed in a group is when I miss on a particularly nasty group and I don't have inspirations or a healer.  Once I toss down freezing rain and earthquake, it's really a non-issue as the bad guys just sorta bounce around.

I played just fine last night until Comcast ate itself and my connection decided to take the night off.  

If anything, it's the people who don't know how to play a controller who will end up dead, but I have to say that our tanker did a damn fine job of drawing aggro the last two nights I've played since the patch.  And that was in random pickup groups...and you never know what you'll get with those.

[stray]

Yeah, I'm not sure where that's comin' from. I almost never die, let alone get one-shotted. I just can't kill shit. Even if an entire group fucks up, my chances of dieing are still pretty slim. If my holds don't hit, my getaway powers will. The pet does half of the job anyway. And when grouped with tanks, that's about as risk-free as it gets.

The poor group xp bonus makes non damage dealers very undesireable since we can no longer do big game hunts.

I'll agree with that: the patch sucked. I wouldn't nearly be the lvl I'm at had I started post-patch..Yet it isn't as bad of a problem when SG members are still cool enough to group despite the bullshit.

[Sable Blaze]

The best way to get kicked from my group is starting in on the experience. I don't want to hear it...ever. I don't play to get xp, and I do NOT want to hear about how lousy your xp is, what it was like back "in the day" or whatthehellever.

I play to have fun. I could care less about the flavor of the month, your xp travails, or your theories on CoH game design and why you know better than the devs on this that or the other thing.

I enjoy a good rant as well as anyone. Stupidity, however, is annoying. The "you don't know squat 'cause you're not 120th level, etc., etc.," doesn't wash here. Provoke bots got nerfed and  damn good thing it was. This was becoming a huge nuisance in pickup groups. One trick ponies and a play-style that was a cliche in less than two weeks after release. Good riddance, says I.

I could go on, and make a couple of more points swimming about in my head, but I want to play my BS/invul scrapper. See you ingame! If your provoke bot is now useless, well, log and delete. See yah!

[Secundo]

1 more time for good measure. As a tanker, the provoke nerf doesn't affect ME. It will however affect all others in the high end game.

So you say pets do all the work now? NERF! they will be next...

[Murgos]

1 more time for good measure. As a tanker, the provoke nerf doesn't affect ME. It will however affect all others in the high end game.

And your still wrong.  Provoke should not be a panacea, no one power (particularly not a lvl 6 power pool power) should.  If you can't see that, then you have serious whiners block and should stop playing before you burst a vessel.

AND provoke still works and works well it's just not guaranteed to work on all double plus uber-mega-mobs.

[Grind]

Sable Blaze,

Given the changes made, I see **/Invulnerability as potentially being optimal for fun and defense.

How are your defenses post level 30 versus equivalent level tankers - Do you do traditional tanking and have you taken much of the invulnerability secondary powers in your Broad Sword character?


My idea would be to kill my invuln/stone tanker and create a spines/invuln scrapper. I would maintain aggro using Provoke, Invoke panic, and DoTs. But I am uncertain how effective the defenses would be on this char versus my invulnerabilty tanker - How much of a degradation in defenses would there be going from invuln as a primary to a secondary?


Grind

[Sable Blaze]

I think you'll see about a 15% degradation in your resistances and defenses. Defense can be made up with power pools, but you'll take more damage than an invul tank. Additionally, you don't have tanker hit points.

Invul scrappers develop much more slowly since it's a secondary skillset. Your attacks are still most important. You kill stuff FAST. Invul just allows easier boss baiting and you can stand more and take it rather than running stuff around like a regen scrapper. You're still not a tank, just a tougher scrapper.

I've taken the base innate invul defenses against smash/lethal, TI, US, and invinicibility (mostly for the ACC mods). Nothing else. Though I may take energies near the end. Might not, either. Dull pain, of course, since it's going to be your heal.

I don't really see invul as being all that much better than regen. It's just different. I have fun with both. They play a bit differently, have different strengths and weaknesses. Both are fun. I don't think either is a real substitute for a tanker.

[Secundo]

Murgos, I am not disputing that provoke was too powerful to be a lvl6 powerpool pick. In my opinion provoke belongs in the primary tanker lines.
It should be made available around lvl 18 or so. Before that provoke will kill the user.

But, my tanker is 32. I have seen the high end game. Anyone but tankers WILL feel the provoke nerf by then.

It is no coincidence that I team with a scrapper now near the high end game. Anyone else is dead meat in seconds if provoke misses or doesnt recycle fast enough.

I can and will live with the changes but a respec would be in order. For me to gain another lvl and add a few slots to compensate, I will need to kill ~700 even tank bosses. That is if I can find them without any invincible purples around that is...

Oh and no, scrappers cannot replace tanks as the main tank but they make an excellent 2ndary tank. This has alot to do with the fact that scrappers can resist stun&sleep better than most tanks so they are good to pick up the slack while the tank takes a nap(with his shields down).

[stray]

It is no coincidence that I team with a scrapper now near the high end game. Anyone else is dead meat in seconds if provoke misses or doesnt recycle fast enough.

If you don't know it already, that's why there are controllers. A group 4 or so isn't going to be some terrible penalty to your xp rate either. And if you're so concerned about that, then get a controller who can debuff too, with Radiation or Kinetics. You'll kill faster.

[Sable Blaze]

I still say the deadly fascination with fighting +4 level mobs is the real problem. It's the EQ-mentality at work and this isn't EQ.

I"m all for a respec myself. AO had problems in a vein roughly similar to this. Even Funcom eventually broke down and offered limited partial and one total respec. I've got a few things I'd like to correct on assorted toons.

Provoke being a power pool skill is a bit puzzling. Why anyone BUT a tank would want it is a bit of a mystery. Still, we don't need provoke bots. Good riddance to those. Again, I don't see the provoke revamp as a bad thing. Fighting +4 level should be risky as hell. There should be deaths. It's not something you should be doing lightly just for xp.

[Phred]

I still say the deadly fascination with fighting +4 level mobs is the real problem. It's the EQ-mentality at work and this isn't EQ.

Erm, for most of it's 5 years of existance, EQ was about killing blues to maximise experience so I don't see why you think it's an eq thing.

[Sable Blaze]

I call it that mostly due to the relative difficulty of the mobs. You generally didn't fight groups of mobs in EQ if you could help it. The con system was entirely meaningless in EQ by Velious.

Any even con mob in CoH is toast when engaged by any reasonably constructed toon. Best xp is usually on yellow mobs (+1 lvl) for solo players. Groups could add a level or two, depending. In EQ, it'd be suicide to take on a small group of even cons. Solo play hardly even existed outside a few classes and then generally only in older content. We won't even get into EQ itemization and PC strength.  

EQ was built around the concept of groups of PCs engaging single, much more powerful NPCs. CoH isn't. Engageing groups of mobs is basic to CoH. EQ was about groups of players and single mobs.

[Murgos]

Along the lines of what Sable Blaze is saying but what has struck me most about the recent spate of whining is that the vast majority of those not foaming at the mouth are actually pushing for strict class stereotyping.  Tankers MUST only tank.  Scrappers MUST only do melee damage.  Blasters MUST only do ranged damage.  Defenders only buff and controllers only control.

It's disheartening because one of the things that sold me initially on CoH was the lack of strict sterotyping.

[Big Gulp]

It's disheartening because one of the things that sold me initially on CoH was the lack of strict sterotyping.

That's never bothered me, really.  My main is a tank and my secondary is an empathy defender.  I truthfully enjoy being a support class (I include tankers in that description) much more than I do being a damage dealer.  And hey, since everyone and their brother seems to want to play scrappers or blasters I'll let them do the damage while I keep them alive.

Maybe it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I get off on performing those roles well.  If I wanted to be a walking death machine that can get killed in two or three hits I'd have made one.

[Murgos]

Shouldn't you be practicing fast ropeing out of the back of a Blackhawk or something?

[Big Gulp]

Shouldn't you be practicing fast ropeing out of the back of a Blackhawk or something?

Not for another year, my friend.  I'm still doing the drill sergeant thing.

[Jimbo]

Along the lines of what Sable Blaze is saying but what has struck me most about the recent spate of whining is that the vast majority of those not foaming at the mouth are actually pushing for strict class stereotyping.  Tankers MUST only tank.  Scrappers MUST only do melee damage.  Blasters MUST only do ranged damage.  Defenders only buff and controllers only control.

It's disheartening because one of the things that sold me initially on CoH was the lack of strict sterotyping.

Amen to that!  I hate that it might turn into EQ with just name changes.

I also notice that tanks and scrappers are starting to see how certain pool powers are more desirable and leaves less open for creativity.
Example:  Say I'm playing my ice tanker, well he sucks up stamina like crazy (almost as bad as my stone tanker did) and to keep on trucking I really need to take the fitness line (either health, hurdle, and/or sprint and stamina).  Sure I could get buy without fitness, but it really makes the game fun when you don't have to worry about wearing out.  Also, as an ice tanker, I have looked over at my ice armors, and probably the best armor is wet ice.  Wet ice is nice, but does not have a great amount of regular defense.  To make up for some lack of defense and resistance I could grab fighting and get tough and weave.  Again a trade off, as what I wanted (cool stuff like jump kick and super jump) is left off building the better tank super hero.

Of course I was never kicked from a group when I built my first stone tanker (okay...he was my second stone tanker) for not having provoke, so I don't think many people will be that critical on builds.

[kaid]

Provoke even when it worked like it used to was never really seen as vital to a tank until post 20. Few tank templates I have seen bother picking it up before then because you need to round out your defenses first or provoke dosn't do you a lot of good.

Provoke although changed is very handy as something to pluse like mud pots or the other pbaoe damage auras most tanks get. For things like earth or fire tankers provoke may not even be very needed because you can get most of the effect by diving into mobs and pulsing your aoe damage. Tanks get a big taunt multiplier on any damage they do so these auras can do a good job of making mobs stick to the tank.

I don't understand the point of the single target taunt for the most part if you want to agro a single target you just attack that target for the same effect. Coh is not like eq and rarely do you ever find yourself in a one on one situation where a single target taunt would be effective.

It also confuses me why the aoe taunt is a level 6 open pick from the power pool. This should be a tank skill not a power pool skill. How many blasters are going to want provoke,  or controllers, or defenders, or heck even scrappers.


Kaid

[Big Gulp]

I don't understand the point of the single target taunt for the most part if you want to agro a single target you just attack that target for the same effect. Coh is not like eq and rarely do you ever find yourself in a one on one situation where a single target taunt would be effective.

Yeah, I don't understand the allure either.  I use taunt simply to pull singles when I'm soloing.  When I'm grouped I turn on invincibility (which is an AOE taunt, although it does no damage) and wade into a group of mobs to get their attention.  Works like a charm, and the rest of the team can way laste to fringe bad guys that I may have missed.  The nice plus of invincibility is that I have a buddy who's pretty much always 10 levels behind me, but with it I can jump into groups of high level (to him) stuff and keep their attention without ever doing damage.  Meanwhile he can just blast away on reds and purples all night and get some killer xp at no risk to himself.  It's really a thing of beauty.

[Sky]

OMG SPLOITS SPLOITS GET THE NERF BAT

[Jimbo]

I don't understand the point of the single target taunt for the most part if you want to agro a single target you just attack that target for the same effect. Coh is not like eq and rarely do you ever find yourself in a one on one situation where a single target taunt would be effective.

It also confuses me why the aoe taunt is a level 6 open pick from the power pool. This should be a tank skill not a power pool skill. How many blasters are going to want provoke,  or controllers, or defenders, or heck even scrappers.

Kaid

Taunt is nice for when I picked up rooted (and the inv build has one some what like it) and could no longer run around spaming my gash or brawl.  I got by with those two early attacks for a long time, but when I couldn't run around wacking stuff because of rooted, taunt was nice.

About the only other class I could see taking provoke would be a scrapper...but then that is way doubtful, as most would use a taunt to pull off one of the bad guys beating on the controller or defender or blaster.

[Sable Blaze]

When under US and something runs, I do one of two things: 1) let it run, it'll be back. 2) Turn off US and run after it and deliver the coup de grace on the hoof. Whichever you choose will largely be dictated by circumstances.

If some ne'er-do-well goes after the more fragile party memebers, well, just hitting buildup and going to town on it usually results in a cessation of whacking on said fragile party members...usually because it's dead. If it's made of sterner stuff, then I guarantee you'll have it's undivided attention after a built-up hack and disembowl hit home.

That's my view on taunt.