1.11 Dev Notes -- 40 person raid coming

[Trippy]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/

Talent Review: Mages

The next class up for a review of its talents is the mage, master of the arcane and the mystical energies of magic. Some of the aspects the class designers will be looking to improve include easing a mage's downtime between fights and opening some new, interesting talent builds through changes to all the mage's talent trees.


New High Level Dungeon: Naxxramas

Floating above the Plaguelands, the necropolis known as Naxxramas serves as the seat of one of the Lich King's most powerful officers, the dreaded lich Kel'Thuzad. Horrors of the past and new terrors yet to be unleashed are gathering inside the necropolis as the Lich King's servants prepare their assault. Soon the Scourge will march again...

Coming in patch 1.11 is Naxxramas, a new 40-man raid dungeon that will present even the most experienced and powerful players with an epic challenge. Stay tuned for more announcements about this coming addition to the World of Warcraft!

[Modern Angel]

You know, it's not the raid content for me. I actually enjoy raids. It's the fact that they keep churning them out with no way to laterally move from one to the next. You HAVE to do MC to do BWL to do AQ to do Naxx. Christ in a can, don't make them like levels in a video game with a linear progression. Even the most hardcore of the raiders only have so many days in a week and if you must do one to death in order to move up to the next you're going to run out of fucking days.

[Jayce]

you're going to run out of [nws] days.

The opposite side is to run out of content, which people complain about even more (and with more justification).

Which one do you want?

[bhodi]

We owned fankriss good last night but we are still stuck at the gigantic cockblock of the princess. NO CLUE how to kill her, she owns us even with the 15 people's NR around 200i-250sh, barely got her to 20% on our best try... a new dungeon will be nice to work on until they fix the shitty NR itemization.

[Modern Angel]

you're going to run out of [nws] days.

The opposite side is to run out of content, which people complain about even more (and with more justification).

Which one do you want?

I want them to release content (raid or otherwise is irrelevant to my argument) that doesn't require me to run through a gauntlet of other content to get to. MC is a cockblock to BWL. How hard would it have been for them to release a dungeon which was tougher than MC because of complexity alone instead of gearing issues?

When I log in I want to be able to choose where I go based on my mood not play "The Princess is in another castle!" for two years.

[Rasix]

We owned fankriss good last night but we are still stuck at the gigantic cockblock of the princess. NO CLUE how to kill her, she owns us even with the 15 people's NR around 200i-250sh, barely got her to 20% on our best try... a new dungeon will be nice to work on until they fix the shitty NR itemization.

Princess was a cupcake compared to Twin Emps, who we just downed last night. I was in the 15 folks for our last princess kill and I only had 162 NR unbuffed (only one person died).  Still, she takes a few attempts because it can really fall apart at the end.  Once you've got a strat that can consistantly take her to sub 10% you've got her down.  Then it just becomes a matter of keeping everyone alive until she frenzies and then powering through that.  Alas my guild is moving to Black Dragonflight.  Not a happy raider, atm. 

New raid content is good, but there's just too much on anyone's plate right now.  If you're on BWL farm status, then you've got 1 day for MC (some people still need T2 pants), 1 day BWL, and 2 days on AQ to get through Emps (if you've got them on farm, and people still haven't downed C'thun or Ouro). On a 5 day a week raid calendar, you've got an entire 1 day for Naxx. 

Of course, this is Blizz, who knows when 1.11 is coming out.

[Rasix]

I want them to release content (raid or otherwise is irrelevant to my argument) that doesn't require me to run through a gauntlet of other content to get to. MC is a cockblock to BWL. How hard would it have been for them to release a dungeon which was tougher than MC because of complexity alone instead of gearing issues?

Have they even said yet if Naxx is an upgrade to BWL?  Is it "tier 3"?

[Zane0]

Technically new guilds can do some of AQ before BWL.  I imagine it'd be easier to do Skeram and the Bug trio than Razergore.

Not sure how good Naxx loot is, but a lot of raiders are anticipating it as the next big itemization lift and are throwing all kinds of annoying ultimatums around it.  Not sure how much choice Blizz has in the matter.

[bhodi]

I want them to release content (raid or otherwise is irrelevant to my argument) that doesn't require me to run through a gauntlet of other content to get to. MC is a cockblock to BWL. How hard would it have been for them to release a dungeon which was tougher than MC because of complexity alone instead of gearing issues?

Have they even said yet if Naxx is an upgrade to BWL?  Is it "tier 3"?

Meh, the rumor is that it is upgraded gear. Most of us don't want anything from AQ, really, it's more of a sidegrade, and we're doing THAT so even if it's another sidegrade we'll probably just do it for the challenge.

We've dropped MC from the rotation every other week to focus on AQ, we're just a bit behind you, I think, farm status on BWL, MC, ONY, so by time that comes out in a month hopefully we'll be just frustrated enough with slamming our heads on the C'Thun wall that we'll want something else. The guild is getting touchy and beigining to show signs of burnout (low turnouts on the 'new content days', things like that, so a change of pace will be good.

Any hints for princess? Is there a trick we're missing? Right now our "best strat" it's just groups 1-4 NR gear, two MTs in normal gear for the pre-30, get her to 30, then NR takes over and burns her down while priests in each of those groups are spamming prayer of healing. We're just SUCKY in full NR, can barely get her to 30 before she enrages on her own.

Technically new guilds can do some of AQ before BWL.  I imagine it'd be easier to do Skeram and the Bug trio than Razergore.

Not sure how good Naxx loot is, but a lot of raiders are anticipating it as the next big itemization lift and are throwing all kinds of annoying ultimatums around it.  Not sure how much choice Blizz has in the matter.

Meh, we STILL wipe on fucking prophet if/when he stacks all 3 on the same platform half the time... they get loose and we die. I don't see how people think AQ is easier than BWL, frankly, we took vael down with none of the real problems that everyone else seemed to have. Of course, we wiped on rag/domo for around 2 months beforehand so our entire guild was DECKED OUT in FR gear, and we still have problems with trio control and generally wipe once or twice on that, too.

[Morfiend]

My guild is hoping that we can get BWL close to farm before Naxx comes out. Right now we are working on Chromaggus, but advancing fast. We will try and do MC 1 night, BWL 1 night, and Naxx 2 nights. I think for the majority of the guild AQ40 is a small upgrade, where as Naxx will be a big upgrade. As long as tghere isnt a huge resist cockblock in naxx, I think we will be able to do OK.

[Zane0]

I'm not sure about how my tanks set themselves up for Huhu, but I believe they were full NR for the entire fight.  The main source of Huhu's damage to the tank is her stackable NR DoT.  It's best to rotate the tanks after they get one or two of these debuffs, because you don't want healers running out of mana before 30%.

30% depends a lot on your healers.  You should have a couple free ones assigned to pick up slack from PoH that develops from differences in NR and priests getting silenced.  Shield wall rotations can take a lot pressure off of the tank damage, which is very harsh after 30.  PoH can sometimes be difficult to time since it has a long cast.  You can either practice it, or assign one healer to two or three targets each; this works too.

[Modern Angel]

The general feeling is that there won't be a massive resist cockblock in Naxx but we'll see. As far as AQ goes I just want that staff from Skeram for my mage and the rest of the place can fuck itself.

[Rasix]

We've dropped MC from the rotation every other week to focus on AQ, we're just a bit behind you, I think, farm status on BWL, MC, ONY, so by time that comes out in a month hopefully we'll be just frustrated enough with slamming our heads on the C'Thun wall that we'll want something else. The guild is getting touchy and beigining to show signs of burnout (low turnouts on the 'new content days', things like that, so a change of pace will be good.

Twin Emps put us in serious burnout mode.  Serious enough that we're moving to a PVP server as a "change of pace".  We beat Twin Emps on our last night on the server. I shouldn't be saying "our", I'm likely staying put and just taking another 6 months off the game.  I'll cut myself off here, but the discussion for moving made me want to vomit.  If you're not on a PVP server, pray Blizzard never tosses that apple of discord your way.

Any hints for princess? Is there a trick we're missing? Right now our "best strat" it's just groups 1-4 NR gear, two MTs in normal gear for the pre-30, get her to 30, then NR takes over and burns her down while priests in each of those groups are spamming prayer of healing. We're just SUCKY in full NR, can barely get her to 30 before she enrages on her own.

We've got all tanks in NR.  All of them.  All rogues in NR gear.  We're usually bringing 6 warriors to this fight.   We've been farming the green dragons for a while, so people aren't exactly going in with shitty NR gear from mauradon (well not all of it).  We've got priests in each group that's staying close so they can fire off group heals at 30%. They are in NR gear.  There's likely one shaman and a couple hunters in NR gear in range also (some of our high NR warlocks have also stayed in range at times).  Shaman/druid keep the tanks up and unslept (still important to do this at this point) while the group priests fire off group heals like they're fighting vael.

Some key points for this:
*Remove sleep from your two MTs ASAP and from other tanks as soon as you can.  All tanks being slept, will likely result in a ranged DPS getting aggro and proper fucking your raid. Our best attempts are when the sleep is handled well.  Don't remove sleep on rogues. 
*Tank transitioning is key. The ST needs to pick up aggro to avoid you dumping too much mana on the tank that starts the fight.
*Start your mages wanding, then let them into the fight after you've beaten her down some and then them and everyone else goes batshit on the DPS at the 30% mark.  You'll need to pick a point where your mages/warlocks can start blasting away.  You just can't go too slow on the DPS.  Remember, if you bring enough tanks, execute range is what you're shooting for.

The imporant thing is to really make to the 30% mark with no deaths and enough mana to power you through to the end.  Early deaths will lead to 1% wipes.

[Xanthippe]

I think the linear progression thing is a bad idea.

I am growing tired.  I want to have a nice farm somewhere, or become a lady merchant or trader.

The whole killing monsters thing is getting old, especially when it's built upon progression where one needs 39 other people in order to proceed.  (And most especially when I can't even log in in a reasonable amount of time).

I quit DAOC over ToA (which became necessary for the pvp).  I'm hoping there will be enough casual stuff to do in WoW to tide me over until the expansion.  Or maybe I should take Schild's advice and go back to single player games.

[bhodi]

We've got all tanks in NR.  All of them.  All rogues in NR gear.  We're usually bringing 6 warriors to this fight.   We've been farming the green dragons for a while, so people aren't exactly going in with shitty NR gear from mauradon (well not all of it).  We've got priests in each group that's staying close so they can fire off group heals at 30%. They are in NR gear.  There's likely one shaman and a couple hunters in NR gear in range also (some of our high NR warlocks have also stayed in range at times).  Shaman/druid keep the tanks up and unslept (still important to do this at this point) while the group priests fire off group heals like they're fighting vael.

Unfortunately we couldn't even keep our tanks up in full NR gear long enough to get her to 30, so we had to back down and let two of them wear normal tanking gear. We have no ability to kill any world spawn as two other uberguilds have them completely locked down and most of our guild works and can't log in at 11am every other weds anyway. We've got the warrior rotation down, but healers/mages have around half mana by time we get to 30%. That stun sting is a real bitch to our DPS and the fact all our DPS has nothing but maurdon and chimera gear really fucking sucks. We're pretty much boned it looks like.

[Jayce]

I am growing tired.  I want to have a nice farm somewhere, or become a lady merchant or trader.

http://www.eve-online.com

[jpark]

I am getting tired of the idea of having to have completely different resistance sets for different encounters.

I like to see more challenge in terms of scripted encounters and variable powers than having an instance for each resistance type.

Although, a frost instance would be very cool.  :-D

[Chenghiz]

AQ isn't really required, it's just sort of a 'get-neat-loots-for-nonstandard-specs' instance with some nice bonuses for others. On the other hand, Naxxramas I believe will contain Tier 3 armor sets. *Prays to God the hunter set doesn't look stupid*

[Fabricated]

Sigh, more content for the minority of players.

Bonus: You won't be able to walk in the door and even try it if you're not in an uberguild that's well into BWL. You'll have to do fucking MC/Ony, then BWL, then maybe AQ, with a bit of ZG sprinkled in here and there for filler or fun.

[Modern Angel]

Sigh, more content for the minority of players.

Bonus: You won't be able to walk in the door and even try it if you're not in an uberguild that's well into BWL. You'll have to do fucking MC/Ony, then BWL, then maybe AQ, with a bit of ZG sprinkled in here and there for filler or fun.

EXACTLY. New raid, fine. Not everyone's cup of tea but whatever.

Hey, that Naxxraboobis thing sounds cool... wait, what? What do you mean that I have to go run MC and BWL for a year before I can go see it? Yeah, we're running Molten Co... what? Everyone should be in roughly 6 of 8 Tier 2 to go there? We just spent four months beating Ragnaros...

LATERAL FUCKING CONTENT BLIZZARD!

[Rasix]

LATERAL FUCKING CONTENT BLIZZARD!

Lateral content is usually equated with loot sidegrades.   If they can avoid fucking up the itemization the current raiders *might* go for it.  If not.. well, you'll have a repeat of the AQ40 gripes.  Of course, those people griping are still for the most part continueing to hammer away at C'thun/Ouro. 

But yah, I feel you for MC being a stepping stone.  It's a big ball of boring suck once you've got it on farm and it aint exactly a rivetting experience while you're learning it. It would be pretty damn cool if it was an alternative to MC.

Anyhow, I'm going to reserve my Naxx bitching until I hear details.  It would be nice to get a useful upgrade to Earthfury for a shaman.   Course, who knows when I'm going to be raiding again.

[Modern Angel]

If it ends up being an alternative to MC I'll be a happy man. Never going to happen, though.

[Fabricated]

I'd like to see an end to the Tier $FOO variety of armor myself and just see all the pieces in a dungeon sport similiar themes so they work reasonably well together visually. This Tier shit is just another cockblock and it's about the worst kind of mudflation there is since you can't get a mix of individual pieces that really compare or even share a good look.

"Man, you're still in Tier 3? Only fucking n00bs have that, real hardc0re people have Tier 5!"

[bhodi]

I'd like to see an end to the Tier $FOO variety of armor myself and just see all the pieces in a dungeon sport similiar themes so they work reasonably well together visually. This Tier shit is just another cockblock and it's about the worst kind of mudflation there is since you can't get a mix of individual pieces that really compare or even share a good look.

"Man, you're still in Tier 3? Only fucking n00bs have that, real hardc0re people have Tier 5!"

Since you look like a salvation army hobo past level 20, I'm pretty sure blizzard isn't concerned about the look all that much. You can't really mix and match different pieces of armor so they look good visually without some sort of dye system.. and that ain't happening. As for the tiered system, there really isn't any other option; each dungeon gets harder and you need better and better loot to take it on and/or get from the monsters you kill. Half the people do it for the challenge, and that's great, but what about those who are doing it for the phat lewts? you have to throw them a bone.

[Modern Angel]

Then throw them a bone. Just stop making it so gear is the only stopping me from waltzing into BWL.

You can make it sort of about gear if you want (my priest needs more mana to heal for five minutes!) but Jin'Do isn't tough because of gearing issues.

[Telemediocrity]

Have they ever made uber-content that offered no reward whatsoever, that people simply attempted because it was actually fun of its own accord?

[Modern Angel]

Have they ever made uber-content that offered no reward whatsoever, that people simply attempted because it was actually fun of its own accord?

Is it fucking 1997 where you live? Where you get to do ARR PEE for the sake of doing whatever hammy little queer jig in front of the Brittania bank? No? Because I know exactly where you're going to go with this fucking thing just like everywhere you post.

[Malathor]

Interesting that people are having their priests PoH on Huhu. We abandoned that very quickly in favor of assigned 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 healing, and had little difficulty (barring lag) with her thereafter.

AQ's just been an exercise in cockblockage for us. Six weeks of farming to get the gates open. Twin emps down one week after opening. Six weeks (so far) of banging our heads against C'Thun.

Have they ever made uber-content that offered no reward whatsoever, that people simply attempted because it was actually fun of its own accord?

Loot is irrelevant to me. Making shit dead, preferably first, is the only reason I bother. And yes, while that is what constitutes fun for me, it's hard to find 39 others who share the same sentiments.

[Merusk]

I am getting tired of the idea of having to have completely different resistance sets for different encounters.

I like to see more challenge in terms of scripted encounters and variable powers than having an instance for each resistance type.

I couldn't agree more with this,  and I'm only just getting through MC with my group in the last month.  (No Rag attempt last week.. Friday had the "B" team to 'give people a chance' and there were just too many of them.)   Rumors I've heard, tho, is that Nax is going to be shadow-resist heavy.  Makes sense, since all the undead effects are shadow-based.

Fucking resist design.. learn a new tune! I'd bitch about it more, but I know that given Blizzard's glacial pace (When they released DM they said it'd been started prior to Beta) any instances using lessons learned now won't be out for 18-20 months.

[Telemediocrity]

What's the deal with resist, exactly?  Does it basically make the certain gear that provides the resists highly in-demand / a prerequisite?  Can buff mages just cast all the resists on you, so you don't need gear for them?

[SpaceDrake]

Have they ever made uber-content that offered no reward whatsoever, that people simply attempted because it was actually fun of its own accord?

Is it fucking 1997 where you live?

There are more recent offerings which offer content for it's own sake. Granted, there's no multiplayer component, but depending on your point of view that can be a very good thing.

Oh, no surprise on Naxxramas, of course. I was hoping it'd be 20-man, but of course Kel'Thuzad gets to be the next Big Evil Guy in WoW's single-player plotline. Should be the Dream after that, maybe one or two more BGs, and the current-time World Tree as a very big maybe (I rather suspect they'll tie in access to the "current" World Tree with the "past" World Tree event in the Caverns of Time in the expansion), and then a content freeze until the expansion.

[Fabricated]

What's the deal with resist, exactly?  Does it basically make the certain gear that provides the resists highly in-demand / a prerequisite?  Can buff mages just cast all the resists on you, so you don't need gear for them?

You could probably get by with just some smaller handfuls of resist gear + aura/cast resists, but that wouldn't make the poopsockers happy or promote their kind of strategies, which mostly involve 1-3 tanks with utterly obscene resists so healers don't really have to pay attention outside of crits or burst damage.

If Blizzard didn't actually put in some scripted events and require at least a brain stem on some bosses the catasses would be perfectly happy grinding out all the best resist gear for tanks and doing the old "Okay, pull here, build aggro. Priests heal and decurse. Oh darn, some totally retarded wipe-causing debuff, you run over here and die so the rest of us may live. Alright, DPS squad come in. *Lag*. Hey, we win!" routine.

[Modern Angel]

The first time I got a nice shiny purple text weapon I was like "WOW! Look at that Brutality Blade! Fucking SWEET!"

By the seventh it was a means to an end to see new content.

Which is not to say my old guild was uber; eight months to clear MC is most assuredly not fucking uber. Rather I LIKE Blizzard's content as a general rule and if I have to jump through a few of the A to B to C gearing hoops to get there, cool. I wish there were less of them and it will eventually drive me into the arms of another but for now, fine. Most people never get past the PURPLE ZOMG stage, though.

[Rasix]

What's the deal with resist, exactly?  Does it basically make the certain gear that provides the resists highly in-demand / a prerequisite?  Can buff mages just cast all the resists on you, so you don't need gear for them?

You could probably get by with just some smaller handfuls of resist gear + aura/cast resists, but that wouldn't make the poopsockers happy or promote their kind of strategies, which mostly involve 1-3 tanks with utterly obscene resists so healers don't really have to pay attention outside of crits or burst damage.

If Blizzard didn't actually put in some scripted events and require at least a brain stem on some bosses the catasses would be perfectly happy grinding out all the best resist gear for tanks and doing the old "Okay, pull here, build aggro. Priests heal and decurse. Oh darn, some totally retarded wipe-causing debuff, you run over here and die so the rest of us may live. Alright, DPS squad come in. *Lag*. Hey, we win!" routine.

Your casual angst is showing.  Again. 

I'll let you in on a little secret: raiders hate resist based encounters too.  Resist gear takes up bag space (lots of it). Tanks don't like tanking in paper mache because it helps them resist *stupid breath attack*.  Healers don't like playing with shitty mana pools because they've got on their depends of shadow resist on. No one likes farming for or spending DKP on crappy gear just because it has 15 nature resist on it. No one wants to complete that stupid fire resist libram or spend mats on resist enchants.  Resist based encounters are lazy design due to being artificial cockblocks that have nothing to do with skill. It dumbs down the encounter and adds an element that can't be bipassed through any other means but gathering the gear.

People that think getting resist gear is fun are probably frothing at the mouth waiting for Vanguard.

And yah, Emeriss is a dumb encounter, but no one should ever die on it if people know what the fuck they're doing even if they get the corruption. (Assuming that's what you're using as an example.)

[Fabricated]

And yah, Emeriss is a dumb encounter, but no one should ever die on it if people know what the fuck they're doing even if they get the corruption. (Assuming that's what you're using as an example.)

Well, there are bosses with disaster causing debuffs/DOT's/bizzaro curses in all of the raid instances.

I'm just getting more and more uninterested in progression in the game since it's like Blizzard is flat out not interested in making content the majority of players can see without having to go through horribly uninteresting/unfun content like MC and spending so much time gearing up they get sick of the content that provides it.

I haven't even gotten to see hardly any of MC, and that's the only 20+ raid instance I've been in. I think about that. If I want to see any of it, my small guild can go around begging to try and get an alliance and pray for the other people not to be functionally retarded (provided we can even find an alliance), recruit like mad and spend a LOT of time weeding out the people who never log on afterwards or are retarded/cockholes, or I can leave my guild behind (basically leaving behind a lot of people I really enjoy playing/talking with) and try to get into a raiding guild.

And that's just to get started. Then I have to spend weeks gearing up in MC provided it's even on farm status yet, then it's on to BWL with maybe some sidetrips to AQ/ZG, and maybe, just maybe, after a good 2-3 months of plugging away, I can walk in the door of this new instance and experience the new content/story, see the zone's design, and ooh and ahh at everything in general. Nevermind the loot even.

Fuck raiders. Fuck them, and fuck whoever thinks it's a good idea to keep making content for them that requires gearing up so you can get geared up to get geared up for the current "hardest" instance.