Gaymers force Blizzard into submission

[Mesozoic]

Guilds are a sacred, legal, and social union ordained by God to be a relationship between hetrosexual individuals. Focus on the Family holds this institution in the highest esteem, and strongly opposes any legal sanction of Guild counterfeits, such as the legalization of homosexual "guilds" or the granting of guild-like benefits to homosexuals, bisexuals, lesbians, transexuals, or any other deviant relationship. History, nature, social science, anthropology, religion, and theology all coalesce in vigorous support of guilds as they have always been understood: a union of heterosexual males and females for the purpose of creating stable raids.

- from Focus on the Family, in an alternate dimension where they had any cognizance of WoW

[Morfiend]

I disagree. The solution is a guild recruitment channel and no guild recruitment in general chat because it is spam.

And if someone wants to advertise a hacker, cheater, or gold farmer guild in the guild recruitment channel I'm fine with that too.

Funny. In this morning patch, they added a guild recruitment chat channel. Must be thinking along the same lines.

Also, I have to agree with Civik. I have no problem with a GLBT guild. Also, I think its fine to advertise the fact. Do you expect homosexual people just to constantly join guild after guild in hopes of getting the one they want? What about raiders? Should they not beable to advertise that they are a raiding guild? Just gota join and find out?

I know I'll once again get shouted at about this, but that's a horrible point. Raiding is an interest inside the game. GLBT/Christian/Parent is a distinction outside the game. Being either of the latter has little to do with what you do in game other than perhaps your time commitments and apparently conversation points. There's a large difference. In addition, it really doesn't matter what I say in this thread at this point, since most of you are looking for a reason to be pissed about something. So have at it, I'll just move along to greener grasses and let this one go.

Also, Azazel makes me laugh. See you in the shithole good buddy.  :-D

Maybe this is a agree to disagree point, but I have never been in a guild where RL stuff doesnt bleed through in to the game. What about people advertising Casual-Friendly guilds? If I was homosexual would I want in a GLBT guild? Probably not, but I would be uncomfterble having people in my guild using the term "gay" to describe stuff that sucked.
I was in a small guild starting in the old NWN, and then in UO with a homosexual player, and he did tend to act a bit differently that a straight player (he was a major queen, and would be the first to admit it), but I could defenetly see how players of a like orentation would like to stick together.

We have Old Guys guilds, Christian guilds, l33t guilds, casual friendly guilds, hardcore guilds, and now Gay guilds. So far only one playstyle seems to have got people in an uproar.

[HaemishM]

The fact is, people advertise what raids they are doing, if they are newb friendly, pvp orientated or what timezone they operate in when they are advertising for new members.  The idea that information that you are using to whittle out people who will not fit in with the type of guild you are making should be kept secret until a person contacts you is fucking ridiculous.

<me>:  Guild looking for new members!  We have a cool name and a cool tabbard!  PST if you want to know anything at all about the guild!

Thats just retarded, and deep down we all know that.  General chat is all worthless spammage anyways, we all know that too.  If there is indeed a guild recruitment channel then yes they should keep that shit out of general.  But saying that they shouldn't attempt to look for people who would be interested in a LGBT friendly guild atmosphere in their advertising is just FUCKING STUPID YOU KNOW IT IS STUPID SO STOP PRETENDING THIS IS COMPLICATED.

No, advertising for guild members in a general chat channel, ANY GENERAL CHAT CHANNEL IS FUCKING STUPID. I should know, because I've had to build guild recruiting structures and procedures from the ground up in a PVE focused game (i.e. EQ and then DAoC). Let me tell you what you get from the general chat channel spam.

You get the lowest form of dirtlicking, inbred, assgrabbing, lewtwhoring, monkeyfucking, munchkin raping, twat waddling, gramatically inept, socially retarded, drooling, rambling, blithering, cockgobbling, cross-eyed, illiterate, immature monogoloids on the face of the fucking earth, and probably the face of other planets as well. For every 1/2 of a good guild person you find, you'll get 3,004 really really shitty ones. You get the people either no one else will take or the people who have already burned their bridges elsewhere. If your guild has to resort to general chat spam to get enough members to make a decent circle jerk, it doesn't matter what your imagined uniqueness is, whether it be GBLT friendly or the uberest PVP raiders or what, you are already fucked.

Which is why ANY guild recruitment should be shunted to its own chat channel, AND any guild recruitment in general chat channels should be a warning offense. Everyone who has ever been in a large MMOG city knows that there is already too much spam there anyway, this is just more useless shit.

And what's worse, is that knowing the Blizzard player base, advertising a GBLT friendly guild in general is only going to cause ASSTONS of problems from the haters. Bigots are loud, whiny fucks. They will cause more problems than its worth it to allow guild recruitment spam in general. I mean, if we really want to start getting stupid, how about allowing an abortion-friendly guild to chat spam? Is that ok, knowing how much fucking bullshit arguing that's going to cause over general chat channels? Or a racism-friendly guild?

My objection has nothing to do with GLBT as much as it has to do with ANY guild recruitment spam, but especially those that are ab-so-fucking-lutely going to cause huge shitstorms of retarded behaviour.

The best recruitment for your guild, BTW, is two-fold: 1) your guildtag on competent, friendly people who like to group with random strangers, and 2) doing live player events where you give away free shit, like arena tournaments or Valentine's Day dances. Everything else? More trouble than its worth.

[Llava]

You think you have a point here.  You do not.

You have no idea what I think.

So your point is that you have no point and were just being sarcastic and not adding anything to the discussion?

Agreed, then.

[HaemishM]

Also, I have to agree with Civik. I have no problem with a GLBT guild. Also, I think its fine to advertise the fact. Do you expect homosexual people just to constantly join guild after guild in hopes of getting the one they want? What about raiders? Should they not beable to advertise that they are a raiding guild? Just gota join and find out?

One /tell to the person recruiting will answer all of those questions, if the person recruiting knows what they are doing. And if they are recruiting, they should know what they are doing. None of it has to go in a general chat channel.

And I'm glad they added a guild recruitment channel. Just seems like a small thing to do.

[Krakrok]

So your point is that you have no point and were just being sarcastic and not adding anything to the discussion? Agreed, then.

You summed up your own post quite nicely. It's getting pretty crowded down there under the bridge.

Edit: Start your own thread and state your position if you want to debate freedom, the terms of service, and reverse engineering. You don't just get to snipe from the sidelines.

[cevik]

I'm glad I can stir you into such a frenzy over apparently nothing.

Removing basic rights (and no, I'm not talking about advertising a guild in a game, I'm talking about the way you people are treating gay people in our country) because you "disagree" with them and think they are "deviants" is not "apparently nothing" to me.. sorry you feel that way, it explains your behavoir quite well..

So I'm a bigot Cevik?

Yes.

Let's get back to basics. Ironwood is right, I shouldn't have said "deviant" and I didn't mean it applied to gays. I don't think of them as deviants, and while I don't agree with their lifestyle, this is America, and in my opinion they have a right to it and to talk and/or celebrate it in public.

Nice backtracking:  "No no no, I didn't mean THOSE people were deviants.. I meant some other unnamed group of people that had nothing to do with this conversation.. my bad!"  I think you just won the internet..

Also, because this is America, people that disagree can actually disagree without being called retarded, rednecked, bigots. That's counter-intuative to the argument if that starts.

When you are a bigot, you will be called a bigot.

I wrote the original post while wildly drunk, mostly because I'm sick of RL politics (which gay rights are, regardless if you don't want it to be) coming into something that I consider to be a relaxing and anonymous hobby.

You can't suddenly start saying that the rights of a class of people are "politics" thus should be banned because you don't want to hear about politics.  50 years ago the rights of African American were "politics".. can we ban African Americans from telling us their race in general?

You have zero class.

Coming from you, this is the best compliment I've recieved all week.. thanks!

[Azazel]

So does this go in the Den now, or the Politics forum?

Also, Proudmoore just fucking crashed again. I blame Paelos.

[TheWalrus]

You can't suddenly start saying that the rights of a class of people are "politics" thus should be banned because you don't want to hear about politics.  50 years ago the rights of African American were "politics".. can we ban African Americans from telling us their race in general?

You're American or African. Pick one.

[Samwise]

So does this go in the Den now, or the Politics forum?

The Den is too good for this thread.  Let's put it in the WoW forum.

[HaemishM]

So does this go in the Den now, or the Politics forum?

Also, Proudmoore just fucking crashed again. I blame Paelos.

I considered it, but really, it could fit in perfectly on the official WoW boards as well.

[Calantus]

First?

edit: yay first!

[Calantus]

Now it would fit right in.

[SnakeCharmer]

So I'm a bigot Cevik?

Yes.

If someone wants to stick their pecker in another mans ass, far be it from me to tell them they can't.  Just don't tell me its normal to WANT to do so, 'kay?

[Ironwood]

Classy.

I put it to you that the accepted norm is different for everyone, rendering the actual set in stone definition of the word to be a little iffy...

[SnakeCharmer]

There's not polite way to really say it.

Besides, if you want to argue semantics of definitions and their application, Cevik could be considered just as much or more of a "bigot" for not accepting Krakrok's point of view. 

At the very least, a hypocrite.

[Ironwood]

Hmm, I think dredging the argument up again when Mr P has already said that he probably shouldn't have used such an emotionally charged word is not the best idea.

As for Cevik, he's off on one.  As someone who does this, well, pretty much all the time, I recognise the symptoms.  There's no calming it down now.  All you can do is back away slowly.

So stop it.

[SnakeCharmer]

Hmm, I think dredging the argument up again when Mr P has already said that he probably shouldn't have used such an emotionally charged word is not the best idea.

As for Cevik, he's off on one.  As someone who does this, well, pretty much all the time, I recognise the symptoms.  There's no calming it down now.  All you can do is back away slowly.

So stop it.

Just calling it like I see it.  Especially on a post made not 13 hrs ago.

[Ironwood]

13 Hours is a long time when your thread is heading to Politics.

[cevik]

Besides, if you want to argue semantics of definitions and their application, Cevik could be considered just as much or more of a "bigot" for not accepting Krakrok's point of view. 

Yes, and everyone who disagreed with gassing jews were bigots and hypocrits too..

Yes yes, I know, I'm not supposed to compare THIS TIME that you're rounding up a group of people and removing their rights simply because you can with the LAST TIME that you did it, because it makes you feel bad about yourself or something.. Godwin's law.. *shrug*..

[tazelbain]

Just calling it like I see it.  Especially on a post made not 13 hrs ago.

You are an idiot. Hey, just calling it like I see it. If you are posting here, you are already a deviant. Enjoy.

[Ironwood]

Arg.  Gassing Jews.  Why does it always come back to Gassing Jews.

 

[HaemishM]

Yes yes, I know, I'm not supposed to compare THIS TIME that you're rounding up a group of people and removing their rights simply because you can with the LAST TIME that you did it, because it makes you feel bad about yourself or something.. Godwin's law.. *shrug*..

Who is removing rights? You don't have the right to spam up general chat channels with stupid shit advertising gold farming services, or things that are deliberately inflammatory. And anyone who thinks in a player community like Blizzard that the idea of a GBLT guild ISN'T eventually going to cause some inflammation (generally around the vaginal area) is incredibly delusional. If it had been a NeoNazi group spamming up the general chat channel, would anyone have a problem with their being warned/banned/whatever?

Paelos doesn't want to hear it in game. I don't want to hear it in-game. That's why the guild recruitment channel was a good "No duh" thing to add. Was warning this chick kind of stupid? Yes, because it was going to cause a shitstorm of stupid over something that shouldn't have been done. She was well within her rights to spam the general chat channel, because there wasn't any EULA rules against it. But there should have been, for no reason other than folks who don't like gays would probably start some shit in general chat over that kind of guild spam.

For the record:
1) Guild recruitment spam in general chat of any type, for any guild = bad
2) Guild recruitment channel = gud

No one's rights were removed. No one got gassed. Hyperbole is what makes this issue turn into a turnip patch of stupid.

[SnakeCharmer]

Besides, if you want to argue semantics of definitions and their application, Cevik could be considered just as much or more of a "bigot" for not accepting Krakrok's point of view. 

Yes, and everyone who disagreed with gassing jews were bigots and hypocrits too..

Yes yes, I know, I'm not supposed to compare THIS TIME that you're rounding up a group of people and removing their rights simply because you can with the LAST TIME that you did it, because it makes you feel bad about yourself or something.. Godwin's law.. *shrug*..

If you are comparing someone's belief that homosexuality is of a deviant behavior that can compare to genocide...
Wow....
Just...
Wow...
LMAO.

Deep end = you.

Godwin's Law be damned....

[Hoax]

First except the following parameters:
-There was no guild recruitment channel
-General chat in IF/UC is the commonly accepted, if maligned by some method of searching for new members from the general public

Assume:
A guild advertisement that included such details as:  US-Based, English speaking, Must have TS, hardcore raiding MC on farm status must be attuned to BWL/MC/Ony. -Would not warrent any attention from Blizzard reps.

Assume:
A guild advertisement that included such lines as:  Anti Gold Farmer guild, help us kill azn gold farmers, pvp+++ organized BG runs every weekend. -Would warrent attention from Blizzard.

So which category does a guild advertisement that includes:  "LGBT friendly" fall under?

You only have two choices as I see it.

It falls under the first category, they are referencing RL but only as a tool to whittle down the amount of applicants who fit the playstyle/personality they are looking for.

or

It falls under the second, which means you are saying that being LGBT-friendly is an inflammatory remark, that due to the amount of drama it will cause in general should be kept out of the channel.

Which is obviously how the CSR saw it, not that Blizzard was being anti-gay just trying to prevent a ton of spammage in general about a hot button issue.

The fact is Cevik, while being his usual over-stating self, is right.  You guys are being douchebags of the highest order when you even pretend their is some logic to the second form of thinking.   Either way I'm sick of fucking repeating that, while people continue to obscure the issue (Cevik included) by blowing everything way out of proportion.

***

To put it simply, you wouldn't have any problem with a guild advert that went:
"Looking for mature players 21+, family oriented guild so please no swearing or l33t speak"

There are tons of guilds like that, just as there are tons of guilds that naturally gravitate toward the opposite (younger, l33t min/maxer hardcore crowd).  Nobody minds.

But all of a sudden when a new element (designed to eliminate certain language and behavior from guildchat the same way the above language does) is introduced its a big deal, that reeks of fucking bullshit. 

Where I'm from we call people who get worked up over what other people do/say/wear/fuck tourists.

[cevik]

The fact is Cevik, while being his usual over-stating self, is right.  You guys are being douchebags of the highest order when you even pretend their is some logic to the second form of thinking.   Either way I'm sick of fucking repeating that, while people continue to obscure the issue (Cevik included) by blowing everything way out of proportion.

That's because tryinig to have a discussion with the f13 short bus crowd stopped being fun about 5 years ago.. instead I just like to stir up the retardation from time to time.. hopefully soon we'll digress into another lengthy diatribe on why the people at this site are so much smarter than those at the vault.. I'm not really aiming to get that one started until page 7 though, so stay tuned..

[Azazel]

So I'm a bigot Cevik?

Yes.

If someone wants to stick their pecker in another mans ass, far be it from me to tell them they can't.  Just don't tell me its normal to WANT to do so, 'kay?

Why are you trolling? Should you not be bleating over in the SWG thread instead?

[cevik]

If you are comparing someone's belief that homosexuality is of a deviant behavior that can compare to genocide...

Yes.  I am comparing today's anti-gay movement to the anti-* movements of yester-year.  I can do so easily, because I realize that, in 20 years, the history books will back up my assertion that you are all deranged bigots of the highest order.  I'm sorry that you believe this particular round of hatred that has made it's way into our zeitgiest is somehow different than all of the other rounds of hatred that existed in other zeitgeists.  But I promise that every time a virulant strain of thinking such as this venom being spewed by the fundamentalists has infected humanity, the general belief by the followers of the time was that they were right.

[HaemishM]

Assume:
A guild advertisement that included such lines as:  Anti Gold Farmer guild, help us kill azn gold farmers, pvp+++ organized BG runs every weekend. -Would warrent attention from Blizzard.

...

It falls under the second, which means you are saying that being LGBT-friendly is an inflammatory remark, that due to the amount of drama it will cause in general should be kept out of the channel.

You don't think "Help us kill Azn farmers won't get some inflammatory remarks returned to it? It would, just like GLBT would. Maybe not all the time, hell maybe not even 1/10th of a percent of the time, but it WOULD. I'm not asking these people to hide it under a bushel, but if you think saying you are a gay-friendly guild in general chat in a game with the playerbase of WoW's won't cause some seriuosly retarded, inflammatory remarks, you're fucking nuts.

It will, it does. If you don't think so, go into Ironforge and say, "Brokeback Mountain deserves all the Oscars." Gay cowboys eating pudding will cause a stir, and frankly, NONE of what would result is worth dealing with in a mass market MMOG.

The fact is Cevik, while being his usual over-stating self, is right.  You guys are being douchebags of the highest order when you even pretend their is some logic to the second form of thinking.   Either way I'm sick of fucking repeating that, while people continue to obscure the issue (Cevik included) by blowing everything way out of proportion.

I have a problem with anyone advertising in general chat for their guild, no matter the flavor because it creates guilds full of fucking idiots. Also, because I shouldn't have to hear it. But as a Blizzard GM, I could easily see how silencing the GLBT guild might be a reasonable course of action in order to stop the hordes of idiotic shittalking that would happen afterwards.

Walking into Ironforge and saying "I like gays" is about like walking into a cowboy bar and saying "All cowboys are gay." You're going to get a reaction, and you'll be lucky if that reaction isn't violent. If I was owner of the bar, I'd tell you to leave myself, simply because I don't want to have a bar brawl. And just like Blizzard, I'd be within my legal rights.

Blizzard caved to PC pressure, and I don't blame them. But they also did the smart thing and added a guild recruitment channel where that shit can live and not offend the general populace.

[Lantyssa]

You don't think "Help us kill Azn farmers won't get some inflammatory remarks returned to it?

He said it would be inflammatory and would warrent doing something about.

I have a problem with anyone advertising in general chat for their guild, no matter the flavor because it creates guilds full of fucking idiots. Also, because I shouldn't have to hear it. But as a Blizzard GM, I could easily see how silencing the GLBT guild might be a reasonable course of action in order to stop the hordes of idiotic shittalking that would happen afterwards.

I cannot say I enjoyed the recruitment spam in general.  I agree that more than likely the majority of people that would respond are people I would not want to be in a guild with.  I can understand a GM getting worried about the talk devolving because a few people cannot hear the word "gay" without going nuts.  But at the time, she was not doing anything wrong.

Walking into Ironforge and saying "I like gays" is about like walking into a cowboy bar and saying "All cowboys are gay." You're going to get a reaction, and you'll be lucky if that reaction isn't violent. If I was owner of the bar, I'd tell you to leave myself, simply because I don't want to have a bar brawl. And just like Blizzard, I'd be within my legal rights.

The first implies something about the one saying it and is not an insult but a statement of fact (assuming they are not trying to get into trouble).

The second is about everyone within the context of that situation and is meant as an insult.

There is a distinct difference between the two.  In the second, that person probably deserves something of what is coming to them.  In the first it should warrent no more than a shrug and a look of indifference.

As for within your legal rights, Lamda Legal disagreed.  In the end Blizzard's PR or law department also disagreed with the original position.  By stopping it where they did, no legal precident was set, which also lets them cover their (and the industry's) bums for a while longer.

Blizzard caved to PC pressure, and I don't blame them. But they also did the smart thing and added a guild recruitment channel where that shit can live and not offend the general populace.

I do not think they caved.  I think someone with a brain stepped in and solved this in just about the best manner possible for all parties concerned.  (Only the militants that want a legal ruling to shove it down your throats lost out, and they bother me almost as much as the biggots.)

The channel was created, so it is done now.  Guilds have a place to advertise, it is out of general chat, and if you do not want to hear about a GLBT-friendly guild that is recruiting, you can turn off the guild recruitment channel.  Everyone wins, so why are we still bitching about this?

[Hoax]

I'm still posting because Haemish is doing a great Schild impression and refusing to admit when he's wrong.  I know the clarity of my posts often sucks so I will chalk it up to that and try again.

First except the following parameters:
-There was no guild recruitment channel
-General chat in IF/UC is the commonly accepted, if maligned by some method of searching for new members from the general public

First thing I said in my post, which nullifies this point entirely:
"I have a problem with anyone advertising in general chat for their guild, no matter the flavor because it creates guilds full of fucking idiots. Also, because I shouldn't have to hear it."

Haemish:
But as a Blizzard GM, I could easily see how silencing the GLBT guild might be a reasonable course of action in order to stop the hordes of idiotic shittalking that would happen afterwards.

This is exactly the line of thinking I have a problem with, the idiotic shittalkers are the problem here, not the person who is trying to form a guild where gay, faggot and cocksucker are considered acceptable insults to be thrown about and where *gasp* people might even talk about gaybars they went to on the weekend or parish the thought Brokeback Mountain without the comment going something like "I can't believe shit-packer mountain won awards, the academy must be a bunch of fucking homo's".

I can understand and sympathize with the GM, they just didn't want to deal with the flamefest, but the whole point is the people flaming the guild leader are FUCKING WRONG.  They are being intolerant stupid bigots, like our buddy Paelos was at the start of this whole fucking thread.

As long as we can all agree on that, there isn't anything else to talk about.

If somebody was advertising for a mature 30 years or older guild and a bunch of l33t kiddies started flaming them, Haemish & Paelos wouldn't be defending a GM who told the guild leader to stfu so he didn't have to deal with the l33t kiddies calling the guild leader an old fart or gramps or whatever stupid shit they would come up with.  That is a fucking double standard any way you cut it, so just stop it already.

[Margalis]

Yes.  I am comparing today's anti-gay movement to the anti-* movements of yester-year.  I can do so easily, because I realize that, in 20 years, the history books will back up my assertion that you are all deranged bigots of the highest order.  I'm sorry that you believe this particular round of hatred that has made it's way into our zeitgiest is somehow different than all of the other rounds of hatred that existed in other zeitgeists.

Yup. 100% right.

What I find really funny is that sometimes I make the analogy to inter-racial marriage and then some black people will say "HOW *DARE* YOU COMPARE US TO FAGS!" Yesterday's hatred looks ugly but today's hatred is somehow totally different and justifiable. After we gave some rights to women it was still ok to hate black people, now that we don't hate black people it's ok to hate gay people. It's the same pattern over and over.

The saddest thing is that black people have no problem hating gays, and women had no problem hating black people. You would figure that a formerly oppressed group would have sympathy for other oppressed groups - but you'd be dead wrong. They can turn right around and hate with the best of them. Everybody wants somebody below them they can pick on.

Maybe I'll go retro: I hate black people. I'm 50s style! Now call me a bigot and I'll get all offended! How dare you call me a bigot for hating blacks!!!! Ruffians!

It takes a special kind of person to say:

"At the time we thought treating women as inferiors was ok, but then we realized it was wrong. Then we thought treating black people as inferiors was ok, but then we realized that was wrong too. Now we treat gay people as inferiors - but this time we're pretty damm sure we got it right this time, unlike all those other times where we just *thought* we were right."

1+1+1 = 54. Logic for the win.

---

As far as the whole gay guild thing, protecting people from themselves is usually a very weak rationalization for something. If "gaymers" started getting harrassed because they recruited in general chat they would have two choices:

1: Decide that the harrassment is worth it.
2: Decide that it isn't and stop.

It's that simple.

And last time I checked harrassing people is the wrong behavior - being harrassed is not. If gay gamers are being harrassed look at the chat logs and ban the harrassing accounts.

[Riggswolfe]

The only reason this is an issue is because homosexuals are the only minority that is still repressed and denied rights in places like the U.S. (On a large scale.) Name any other minority that can be called names in public and that is denied access to things every other minority has. (like marriage.)

10 years from now that will all be illegal and homosexuals will be just as protected as anyone else
20 years from now we'll all be paying for this current intolerance by yet more PC bullshit. We'll  probably be calling homosexuals something like "heterosexual impaired" or some crap.

In 100 years we'll either be in a very bland "utopia" where noone upsets anyone else or things will have finally stabilized, with no intolerance and no sugarcoating of things either. (Read no more PC bullshit. )

Note: I am speaking in generalities not absolutes when I use words like "noone".

[HaemishM]

Haemish:
But as a Blizzard GM, I could easily see how silencing the GLBT guild might be a reasonable course of action in order to stop the hordes of idiotic shittalking that would happen afterwards.

This is exactly the line of thinking I have a problem with, the idiotic shittalkers are the problem here, not the person who is trying to form a guild where gay, faggot and cocksucker are considered acceptable insults to be thrown about and where *gasp* people might even talk about gaybars they went to on the weekend or parish the thought Brokeback Mountain without the comment going something like "I can't believe shit-packer mountain won awards, the academy must be a bunch of fucking homo's".

We seem to be in almost violent agreement about this. Yes, the idiotic shittalkers are the problem, just as the cowboy shitkickers in a bar who bash the fuck out of the gay man in the bar are wrong. Doesn't change the fact that in reality, it's much easier, more efficient and frankly good business sense to tell the gay man he should probably take his business elsewhere, or to tell the GLBT guild leader that she's going to cause an argument and to keep it quiet.

It may not be RIGHT, as in morally that person should be allowed to say whatever the fuck they want. But it sure as fuck is reasonable. Gay rights parades can't just spontaneously go marching down the street without permits. And in a game where the general chat channel and anything the fuck else is up to Blizzard to decide what's appropriate, it's easier to silence one person/guild than the army of munchkin mongoloids who will start fights over that one person/guild.

Blizzard caved because they didn't want to get sued. That's it, plain and simple. Although I do believe they wouldn't have lost, because it's their place and they can determine what's appropriate within reason and what's not, they would have come across looking like gay-hating assholes. Which is just what apparently Paelos and I look like, despite the fact that Paelos's deviant comment is really the only negative thing we've said about gays.

And Cevik, stop being a troll. You know good and goddamn well that gassing the jews is about as SirBrucey a thing as you could have said in this entire thread. As I said, hyperbole doesn't help discussions, especially when it's just meant to stir shit up.

Yes, we feel superior to the fucking Vault. Get over it. I like being an elitist asshole when it comes to the Vault.

I can understand and sympathize with the GM, they just didn't want to deal with the flamefest, but the whole point is the people flaming the guild leader are FUCKING WRONG.  They are being intolerant stupid bigots, like our buddy Paelos was at the start of this whole fucking thread.

Again, the shittalkers ARE WRONG. But that doesn't stop them from talking shit, causing trouble and bringing an entire line of stupid shit into a game that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME. Your guild being GLBT-friendly? NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME. You being gay IN REAL LIFE? NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME.

And that's what Paelos was talking about. It's the same kind of argument like hating names such as "Ilovehotdogs" only he mentioned gays, so suddenly he's fucking Hitler and he likes gassing homos. Isn't that right, Cevik?

If somebody was advertising for a mature 30 years or older guild and a bunch of l33t kiddies started flaming them, Haemish & Paelos wouldn't be defending a GM who told the guild leader to stfu so he didn't have to deal with the l33t kiddies calling the guild leader an old fart or gramps or whatever stupid shit they would come up with.  That is a fucking double standard any way you cut it, so just stop it already.

But we aren't talking about agism, we are talking about homophobia. Only abortion, the death penalty, Bush and maybe Star Wars are going to cause more vehement nerd retard slap fights than homosexuality. Not all subjects or guild types are going to be the same lightning rods of controversy that GLBT will be.

[Ironwood]

And really, who here doesn't like gassing homos ?