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Author Topic: NDA is up. This board goes public.  (Read 59363 times)
StGabe
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Reply #140 on: January 30, 2006, 02:02:13 PM

I'll make it easy for you, this is the comment that was my jumping off point:

Quote
D&D online looked a bit meh. My basic impression was that it was yet another game that relied too heavily on the licenses and not enough on gameplay. No crafting either. They said they were trying to just get the core 3.5e ruleset in for the initial build. And my problem with that is that the 3.5e ruleset just doesn't seem interesting enough for a game (it's a great framework for creating live stories with a DM, but I'm not sure it's a great framework for an online world). I got to run around as a dwarven warrior and for the most part this suspicion seemed justified. I basically just mashed very similar attacks over and over again (I had a single target attack and two AE's with cooldowns essentially).

You seem to want to agree with everything being said there, and then more or less agree with everything I've said after that, just not without changing it to your own terminology first and telling me I'm an idiot for not understanding your terms instead of mine.

Gabe.

Alkiera
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Reply #141 on: January 30, 2006, 02:21:17 PM

I'll make it easy for you, this is the comment that was my jumping off point:

Quote
D&D online looked a bit meh. My basic impression was that it was yet another game that relied too heavily on the licenses and not enough on gameplay. No crafting either. They said they were trying to just get the core 3.5e ruleset in for the initial build. And my problem with that is that the 3.5e ruleset just doesn't seem interesting enough for a game (it's a great framework for creating live stories with a DM, but I'm not sure it's a great framework for an online world). I got to run around as a dwarven warrior and for the most part this suspicion seemed justified. I basically just mashed very similar attacks over and over again (I had a single target attack and two AE's with cooldowns essentially).

You seem to want to agree with everything being said there, and then more or less agree with everything I've said after that, just not without changing it to your own terminology first and telling me I'm an idiot for not understanding your terms instead of mine.
Bold mine.  The bold is the part no one else agrees with.  The 3.5e d20 system would be fine for an online world, if the company building that world was any good at building worlds.  KoTOR, which everyone agrees was a good game, was built on the d20 system.  It's kinda hidden, and changed slightly for the setting, but it's more or less the d20 system.  The major difference is that Bioware knows how to make a world, has good artists to implement the concept art, decent story and dialog writers, quest designers, etc.  Everyone else's argument seems to be that it's not the license that caused Turbine to fail...  it was TURBINE.  They are indicating that if Blizzard, or Bioware, or any other maker of good games, had made 'D&D Online' using the Ebberon setting, it wouldn't have been constantly raining, all earthtones, with mediocre art, and missions more formulaic than CoH, with slightly gimicky, but not terribly improved, combat and a depressing lack of content.

Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
StGabe
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Reply #142 on: January 30, 2006, 02:35:29 PM

EQ is based on D&D.  Diku was based on D&D.  Have we forgotten this?  Well -- tbh, hey actually expanded D&D a little bit whereas DDO is only trying to do the core ruleset.

KotOR is loosed basely on d20 and not licensed directly off of D&D 3.5e.  Not to mention that it was done by one of the few companies out there with enough clout to do things "their way".  I already mentioned that KotOR was an exceptional case to general trend of licenses and I applaud Bioware for that.

Edit: Also, KotOR and other D&D licensed titles that Bioware was involved with had the luxury of being singleplayer.  A singleplayer game can offer a tailored experience, akin to having a DM run the show.  An MMO can't.  As I was trying to convey, I think this is a big part of why the D&D to MMO transfer isn't that exciting.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 02:54:46 PM by StGabe »

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #143 on: January 30, 2006, 03:30:22 PM

Give me a licensed title and I'll tell you how I think the license probably hurt gameplay.

Licenced games are more likely to be impulse buys, they also will eat into your budget and if you are not careful securing the license becomes more important than what you do with it.  Turbine have shown you can borrow additional funding just for having a popular license. 

Designing a fun game within a certain framework will restrict your options but if you are sensible the wording of your license will allow flexible implementation, Turbine forced their own restrictions by marketing the game as a faithful conversation of the PNP game.  That restricts what they can do for no good reason, it's not a faithful recreation of pnp as you start with 20 extra hit points/spell points, the patch notes show them bending/breaking rules just to fit a mmorpg, e.g. turn undead.

As Margalis said if you have a talented team you will make a talented product.  To use your quote above if there was a popular IP based on creating cheese sandwiches, someone somewhere could make an awesome game from it, possibly set in space with pink aliens.
StGabe
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Reply #144 on: January 30, 2006, 04:03:18 PM

To use your quote above if there was a popular IP based on creating cheese sandwiches, someone somewhere could make an awesome game from it, possibly set in space with pink aliens.

Rather depends.  Who's making it?  How much influence does the licensor have?  What context is the license being used for?  An MMO?  A singleplayer RPG?  A game for prizes?  How much budget is available?

I think that an important thing that is being lost here is that there is a large distance between could and would.  A talented design team, with a good budget, and a helping of creative freedom, working in a medium that was conducive to the license could make a good game -- I haven't ever been trying to deny that.  KotOR is a good example of this.  Whether the stars align so that this actually happens or not, is another matter entirely.  And if the game is poor, it could be because of any of those: the license didn't work well for the context, there wasn't enough budget, the licensor manhandled the project, ... or the people making it sucked.  More than likely it is a combination of several of those factors and more.

In DDO's case I suspect that the license wasn't that great for the medium of MMO's, that they did feel significant pressure to fulfill the "D&D experience", that their budget wasn't nearly WoW's and ... I'll pass on judgement of the dev team.  They could be bad, they could be good, I just don't know.  I saw enough problems there already though, that I didn't need to judge the dev team to predict that the final title would be fairly "meh".

El Gallo
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Reply #145 on: January 30, 2006, 04:05:35 PM

I'm with Alkiera.  License has little to do with it.  DDO is as good a game as Turbine is capable of making.  They just aren't that good.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Margalis
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Reply #146 on: January 30, 2006, 04:09:13 PM

Yeah, I've pretty much said what I wanted to say, and that's the short version.

What license was responsible for AC2 again?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #147 on: January 30, 2006, 05:15:06 PM

According to lots of leaks through the Vanguard testers, AC2 wasn't the fault of Turbine, they were out doing charity work or something when AC2 was developed.  AC2 was 100% Microsoft's fault. Turbine tried hundreds of times to resolve the design issues with Microsoft but being fairly new to software development, Microsoft didn't have a working email system plus their phone system was out and their address was wrong. Turbine designed a whole new phone system for them in a week!  Ungrateful bastards.  Microsoft then designed Turbine's new database for the account migration from Microsoft to Turbine, the result was to cancel 490% of the active accounts, that many users can't all have decided not to pay for a game they don't play anymore, something's fishy there.  Don't people know that one of main benefits of running a mmorpg is that you can continue to charge forgetful people for years for a service they no longer use?  They must be happy with it, or why would they continue to pay eh?

Things got even worse when Microsoft then used the personal information in the old database to track down and kill all the pets of the remaining customers who continued to play AC2.  Not many people know that. 

All I can say is it's lucky for Wizards of the Coast that they have been so supportive of Turbine and DDO, if any rumours start to leak about Wizards of the Coast being less than fawning towards Turbine, I for one am going to be shocked and horrified.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 05:17:15 PM by Arthur_Parker »
tazelbain
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Reply #148 on: January 30, 2006, 05:30:24 PM

According to lots of leaks through the Vanguard testers...
Why are you talking to Vanguard tester, you traitor commie terrorist.

commie is in the dictionary, nice!

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StGabe
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Reply #149 on: January 30, 2006, 06:02:17 PM

What license was responsible for AC2 again?

Right, because this is an all or nothing proposition.  If licensing can hurt the development process then it is the only thing that can hurt the development process.

Look, I offered some reasons why I personally predicted that DDO would flop, and some ruminations on how licensing works.  It was not an attempt to condense the One True Downfall of DDO but just discuss Some issues of working with licensed property and the D&D license in particular.  I'm sorry if it didn't match your own personal theory.

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #150 on: January 30, 2006, 07:49:26 PM

According to lots of leaks through the Vanguard testers...
Why are you talking to Vanguard tester, you traitor commie terrorist.

commie is in the dictionary, nice!

Not Vanguard the game, Turbine had a set of "special" players called Vanguard who tested new content etc.  Fascist
jpark
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Reply #151 on: January 30, 2006, 10:17:22 PM

I've got a theory - the less color there is in a game - the more shitty it seems.  No pun.

WoW > EQ2 > DDO

I like neat gross simplifications (no, I am not a US foreign policy analyst  :-D )

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Margalis
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Reply #152 on: January 30, 2006, 11:01:12 PM

To further lighten up this thread:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/01/13

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
shiznitz
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Reply #153 on: January 31, 2006, 08:55:41 AM

I'm with Alkiera.  License has little to do with it.  DDO is as good a game as Turbine is capable of making.  They just aren't that good.

Which bodes wonderfully for LotRO or whatever it is called now.

I have never played WoW.
Alkiera
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Reply #154 on: January 31, 2006, 09:42:25 AM

I'm with Alkiera.  License has little to do with it.  DDO is as good a game as Turbine is capable of making.  They just aren't that good.

Which bodes wonderfully for LotRO or whatever it is called now.

I believe the consensus around here when they got both those licenses was 'Wow, who'd they have sex with to get those?  I can't imagine who thought they were a good enough dev team to really do either of those licenses justice'.

Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Margalis
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Reply #155 on: January 31, 2006, 10:28:28 AM

Two licensed fantasy MMORPGs coming out at about the same time where the license appeals to very overlapping audiences - brilliant! Talk about cannibalizing your own user base.

Whether or not there is a lot of room for a new fantasy MMORPG at all is question, let alone two from the same company with similar themes.

They would have been much better off choosing one license and making the game good than doubling the cost and effect to create two products that compete directly with each other.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Hoax
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Reply #156 on: January 31, 2006, 10:30:11 AM

LotrO justice?  What justice, the second some moron somewhere decided there would be no pvp and the game would take place during the timeline of the actual trilogy that game was doomed to the suck bin.  I dont care if Blizzard, Jesus and Tolkien himself were involved in designing the stupid thing.


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HaemishM
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Reply #157 on: January 31, 2006, 01:44:53 PM

St. Gabe is saying that the license was a major mitigating factor in the /meh-ness of DDO, not the only factor. He doesn't like tossing stones at dev teams, so he doesn't get into that. I have no such compunctions.

The DDO license (nor any other) didn't necessitate its mediocrity, it merely helped it because the main design goal was to make an absolutely faithful translation of the core 3.5 rules and nothing else. Part of the mediocrity has to be placed with the license, with the license not being conducive to an MMOG design, and with the zealous adherence to the license's rules over and above almost anything else.

It would have taken a star dev team to make it work. Most licensed games (or movies licensed from games or books or comic books) do not hold up to the quality of their original source because the transfer in medium creates significant barriers to the viewer/player.

KOTOR was not an MMOG, and would not have translated well as an MMOG without serious redesign. See Neverwinter Nights for a perfect example.

I still haven't figured out how Turbine got the licenses for DDO AND LOTR based on AC1 and AC2, unless they were the low bidder.

Margalis
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Reply #158 on: January 31, 2006, 03:35:43 PM

The DDO license (nor any other) didn't necessitate its mediocrity, it merely helped it because the main design goal was to make an absolutely faithful translation of the core 3.5 rules and nothing else. Part of the mediocrity has to be placed with the license, with the license not being conducive to an MMOG design, and with the zealous adherence to the license's rules over and above almost anything else.


PSO worked fine. That was a subsciption game, and it didn't have many worldly elements. In fact much less even than DDO. You just meet in lobbies and then run quests, there is no town or anything like that.

It may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but it was fun for what it was. I was expecting DDO to be a lot like it but it but it isn't. PSO didn't do a lot but what it did do it did well - combat was simple yet fun, distance, aim and timing mattered, there were cool looking weapons and spells, characters looked neat, the landscapes were nice looking, the bosses were impressive. Although the quests used the same graphics over and over there were a variety of quests that could be unlocked - beat in a certain time, beat certain bosses, find certain items, etc. Even though 50 quests may have all taken place in the same basic caves area they at least felt different.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
El Gallo
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Reply #159 on: January 31, 2006, 03:52:20 PM



I still haven't figured out how Turbine got the licenses for DDO AND LOTR based on AC1 and AC2, unless they were the low bidder.

Well, I think that movie with Marlon Wayans showed how hard it is to get a D&D license these days.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Righ
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Reply #160 on: January 31, 2006, 11:56:53 PM

See, its not reasonable to now narrow down the whole "more bad products from licenses than non-licenses" thing by saying "I meant MMOGs" because we haven't actually had enough MMOGs let alone MMOGs based on license to make a viable assesment. And of the MMOGs we've had so far, its really only fair to say that one sucks less than another, not that one is especially "good", particularly if by "good" we mean of the level of KotOR, Gran Turismo or Goldeneye 007 (surely some mistake).

The way this argument is going around in circles just so that people can claim "victory is mine" every other post is just like a Telefunken U47. With leather.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
HaemishM
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Reply #161 on: February 01, 2006, 11:49:16 AM

VICTORY IS MINE!




With leather, and whatnot.

Furiously
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Reply #162 on: February 01, 2006, 12:05:55 PM

He's a THIEF!!!!!!!!

jpark
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Reply #163 on: February 01, 2006, 12:49:40 PM

He's a THIEF!!!!!!!!

That uses battleshout  :-D

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Furiously
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Reply #164 on: February 01, 2006, 02:49:46 PM

He said in LEATHER

Ironwood
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Reply #165 on: February 01, 2006, 02:56:39 PM

What happened in here ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
jpark
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Reply #166 on: February 01, 2006, 05:33:54 PM

He said in LEATHER

A barbarian Thief  cool

"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation.
"  HaemishM.
Signe
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Reply #167 on: February 01, 2006, 06:26:40 PM

Spank me.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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