NDA is up. This board goes public.

[Hoax]

You know, I always wanted to try Phantasy Star Blue Burst or whatever the PC MMO was called but the beta client fucking hated my router and I dont turn off the router for some beta.

The shiney sure looked shiney though, but I bet it was a grind fest.

\/\/\/\/\/
Nope I went as far as to turn my comp into a DMZ and tried but the server refused to cooperate.

[Strazos]

You know, I always wanted to try Phantasy Star Blue Burst or whatever the PC MMO was called but the beta client fucking hated my router and I dont turn off the router for some beta.

Port Forwarding? My router had trouble with SoE games when I first got it.

[HaemishM]

You cannot solo early, unless you are a barbarian.

I'd just like to comment, before Haemish twists everyone's mind with his propaganda, that I've tried six different classes (rogue, ranger, fighter, barbarian, wizard, bard) and with each and every one of them I've been able to solo all the way to level 2.  Generally without dying even once.  And the very first class I tried (and still my favorite to date) is rogue. 

But then I have leeter skillz than most.   

I have an odd feeling that regardless what class Heamish plays - he plays them the same way.  He probably tries to put a 2 handed something in the hands of every class he picks and charge into melee  :-D

You're a warrior type through and through Haemish - don't piss around pretending to "play" other classes 

Yes, I do have a warrior's mentality. However, that isn't how I played the rogue. I didn't go two-handed. In fact, I went rapier, and tried it both with and without shield. I tried sneaking around a number of mobs in the quests I couldn't finish. The main quests I am thinking of involve either areas you cannot sneak past no matter what the mob is or how good your sneak is (the rogue had improved sneak and a 16 dex, trying to sneak past CR .25 kobolds) or it involves mobs that are apparently impossible to sneak past (zombies). The most frustrating quest to me was the one that seemed to be tailor-made for a rogue, the Librarian quest. It's a level 1 quest. I was level 1. I'm supposed to steal a book, get caught in all these traps, and then find a way out of the tower with the book with as little conflict as possible. That leads me to believe I could sneak through the whole thing. Or disarm the traps.

I couldn't. I couldn't disarm the traps. I couldn't sneak past the zombies, they would see me every time. I couldn't fight the zombies because they were three and four at a time. Even when I made it past the zombies and the traps, I HAVE to fight an undead bowmen guarding a lever that opens doors. The quest was written as if one person should do it, after all, it's a pretty straight forward "You need to steal this for me" quest. The very context of the quest says "solo" to me, as I fail to see how a librarian wouldn't get suspicious of a group of 6 people coming in to take this book, some of which look like complete savages who can't read (barbarians or war golems). Maybe others can do the quest, but I couldn't. I died something like 10-15 just trying to do that quest, both with and without combat.

I'm not discounting the fact that my skills may not have been up to the task. I may just suck at the game. But I don't think that was the only obstacle.

OTOH, I felt that I could probably take my barbarian through that quest without blinking.

[Samwise]

There used to be a lot more quests that were 100% stealthable... the librarian quest, Osgood's Basement, and Miller's Debt all come to mind.  The problem was that they were not only 100% stealthable, it took about 30 seconds to complete them, so in the beta 3 update or thereabouts they added in a bunch of extra space and lots of mandatory combat to stop the farming.     As usual, we can't have nice things.

There are still quests that can be completed with pure stealth, though.  Bringing the Light and Dread Eye of Khyber are two that benefit greatly from a stealthy approach.  (In fact, Dread Eye of Khyber is nigh impossible to complete without stealth.)  And there are still a number of missions where you can bypass about 90% of the combat if you're stealthy.

I agree that there definitely could stand to be more quests of that nature, but we've already established that they need to have more content in general.  It doesn't mean that rogues are inherently gimpy compared to barbarians, which is what you were claiming.  (My barbarian couldn't solo that damn librarian quest either at level 1.) 

The thing that gives me hope for DDO is the fact that their core systems are pretty damn solid - at last count, every single class is playable (and reasonably well balanced with other classes), every single skill works like it's supposed to, and the combat system is fairly fun.  And there isn't any spawn camping or ninja looting.  That, to me, is huge.  All they have to do now is make good on their promise to keep adding content post-release, and do a good job of it.

[jpark]

Yes, I do have a warrior's mentality. However, that isn't how I played the rogue.

I couldn't. I couldn't disarm the traps.

Try using theives tools rather than the hilt of your dagger.

I couldn't sneak past the zombies, they would see me every time.

That sucks.  Next time, take off your platemail.

I couldn't fight the zombies because they were three and four at a time.

You're going to have to break this habit of using battle shouts - it breaks stealth - and wakes everyone up.

Even when I made it past the zombies and the traps, I HAVE to fight an undead bowmen guarding a lever that opens doors. 

You don't * have * to fight him.  You could sneak by you know.  Trouble maker.

 :-D

[Strazos]

Stop with the SirBrucing, please.

EDIT: Yeah, it was funny. I was tired.

[schild]

Stop with the SirBrucing, please.

Oh shutup, jpark's reply was goddamn funny.

[HaemishM]

Don't be a twat and try to actually read.

Yes, I do have a warrior's mentality. However, that isn't how I played the rogue.

I couldn't. I couldn't disarm the traps.

Try using theives tools rather than the hilt of your dagger.

Funny. Do you have a point?

I couldn't sneak past the zombies, they would see me every time.

That sucks.  Next time, take off your platemail.

I wore the best leather/light armor I could find. It wasn't my armor, twat.

I couldn't fight the zombies because they were three and four at a time.

You're going to have to break this habit of using battle shouts - it breaks stealth - and wakes everyone up.

Stealth didn't work on the zombies. At all. I didn't have the choice of avoiding combat with them, whether I was stealthed or not.

Even when I made it past the zombies and the traps, I HAVE to fight an undead bowmen guarding a lever that opens doors. 

You don't * have * to fight him.  You could sneak by you know.  Trouble maker.

 :-D

No, you can't, because he sees through stealth too. I mean honestly, was this just a sarcasm post, or are you trying to be a cockgobbler?

[schild]

It was meant to be completely tongue in cheek! Why am I the only one who saw it? I thought the battle shout part was money.

[Ironwood]

I'm fairly sure it was a sarcasm post.  I'm also glad he wasn't actually saying this to your face, judging by your reaction....

[HaemishM]

You'll excuse me for being a bit touchy about the combat rogue part. I died A LOT with this character, just trying to be stealthy, or I don't know, trying to kill one fucking monster. Seriously, I was extremely frustrated with the character, and every time I tried to ask anyone what I was doing wrong, I was told "a rogue is teh awesome at higher levels!!1!" and "stop playing him like a warrior!" In other words, I heard the same shit I've heard over and fucking over again in every motherfucking shit-stained beta of a game from the beginning of fucking time.

If you tell me I'm not playing my character "right," BZZZZZZZZZZZTTTT, game is fucked, move on. It's "same as it ever was." I'm sick and tired of betas of games that have decent potential being flushed down the fanbois cumspigot, while I'm told there's nothing wrong with the game.

Plus, it's Tuesday, and my vagina is sandy.

P.S. The warrior shout thing was witty, however.

[Samwise]

As an experiment, I rolled up a new level 1 rogue on Kundarak this past weekend, just to see if it was as bad as I kept hearing from Haemish.  Soloing as a rogue is definitely tougher now than it was in alpha - I'd say that most people should be able to get through the newbie area (the tutorial, the Wavecrest series, the Goodblade series, and the Low Road) solo, but once you get to the main harbor area it's trickier. 

I managed to do Miller's Debt, Sewer Rescue, Bringing the Light, and Dread Eye of Khyber solo (generally with 95% stealth and 5% combat), but there's absolutely no room for error - if you misjudge a sentry's patrol path and cut too close in front of him as you're sneaking around, he spots you and rings the gong and you get gangraped.  I think it's also still possible to solo Waterworks as a rogue, but again, zero room for error now (I got about halfway through and fucked up by brushing against a guard), so it's not going to be the average person's cup of tea.

I think the general idea is that soloing gets tougher and tougher the farther you get, with the harbor gates being the turning point at which most people are going to want to find a group unless they're antisocial to the point of masochism.

[Yegolev]

if you misjudge a sentry's patrol path and cut too close in front of him as you're sneaking around, he spots you and rings the gong and you get gangraped.

Sounds like D&D to me.

[Samwise]

if you misjudge a sentry's patrol path and cut too close in front of him as you're sneaking around, he spots you and rings the gong and you get gangraped.

Sounds like D&D to me.

Exactly.  There's a reason you don't "solo" in D&D.  Gotta at least have someone to find the pieces and duct tape them back together.

[Shockeye]

Exactly.  There's a reason you don't "solo" in D&D.  Gotta at least have someone to find the pieces and duct tape them back together.

There's a reason this game will have a large number of box sales and low subscriptions.

[Samwise]

Exactly.  There's a reason you don't "solo" in D&D.  Gotta at least have someone to find the pieces and duct tape them back together.

There's a reason this game will have a large number of box sales and low subscriptions.

I think Haemish already summed it up well.  Something about genitalia.

[jpark]

My post was pure sarcasm guys lol.

Next time I will add:

 :-D :-D :-D

[schild]

My post was pure sarcasm guys lol.

Next time I will add:

 :-D :-D :-D

Don't you dare. I lolled.

[Margalis]

I don't think it will have high box sales and low subs. I'm guessing low box sales and low subs. Word of mouth on this is a solid "meh" at best.

[Soukyan]

I don't think it will have high box sales and low subs. I'm guessing low box sales and low subs. Word of mouth on this is a solid "meh" at best.

/agree

[Malathor]

I don't think it will have high box sales and low subs. I'm guessing low box sales and low subs. Word of mouth on this is a solid "meh" at best.

"Meh" is an improvement over the word of mouth I've been hearing, when it's been getting any WoM at all. Methinks my status as official DDO doomcaster is looking better and better.

Joy!

[StGabe]

Well, in their defense Turbine didn't have any leeway here.  The system IS 3.5 D&D, with all of it's flaws (and glory).  Great for P&P where your DM can tweak things, or a single player game where you can say 'fuck this guy sucks' and cheat him or reroll and quickly get back to where you were.  For a MMO? Yeah, not the best system.

That's pretty much exactly what I said when I saw a demo at E3.

This could be a good lesson in appraising what licensed content means for a product, IMO.  D&D gets attached to something and everyone salivates over that and brings in all of these associations of fun D&D sessions they had in high school.  But the reality is that a license like that is mostly restrictive on a game design and doesn't necessariily lead to fun in the completely different context of an online video game.  Licenses almost always add only consumer recognition and associations to a product and rarely add gameplay value.  Look at most of the innovative games of the last few years and you'll see that they are almost always based off of of new IP.

 In this case I think that D&D is fun in a P&P setting because it is a fun core set of rules that a DM can write stories around, and relies very heavily on a DM tweaking every last detail and leading characters through a hand-crafted story.  Hand-crafted stories just aren't something that MMO's do well.  You need a DM there to add the flavor and allow for players to do stuff that wasn't intended.  It sounds like Turbine tried to capture that experience anyway (which is good, whether they succeeded or not).  But I'm not at all surprised that they are lacking content and haven't really pulled off the fun storymaking aspect of a P&P game of D&D.

[Margalis]

The system is not the problem. I daresay the system is fine or even good.

The problem is everything else. Does the D&D rule system say that it has to be always rainy and that armor is not 3-dimensional? I don't think it does.

Content design and innatention to detail are the problems. System design is fine.

[StGabe]

So they have enough content and have captured D&D sorts of storytelling?  That's not what anyone else seems to be saying.

Gabe.

[Margalis]

Is this opposite day?

No, they do not have enough content. (or enough variety, not the same exact thing)

No, they do not capture D&D storytelling.

However, the fact that they are using the D&D ruleset has nothing to do with the above. The content has NOTHING to do with the ruleset. The rules don't say that every dungeon has to be some guy's basement. The rules don't say the entire world has to be the same dingy color and graphics. The rules are not the problem.

If anything, the rules are a bright spot.

Original comment:

Well, in their defense Turbine didn't have any leeway here.  The system IS 3.5 D&D, with all of it's flaws (and glory).  Great for P&P where your DM can tweak things, or a single player game where you can say 'fuck this guy sucks' and cheat him or reroll and quickly get back to where you were.  For a MMO? Yeah, not the best system.

This is NOT THE PROBLEM. The rules set is fine. It's everything else that is the problem.

To me it says bad things about Turbine that the part of the game that is decent is the part they took from D&D. All the parts they had to do themselves came out much worse.

System is not the issue. License is not the issue. If you took WoW, made very quest take place in a dark basement and made it always rainy that would suck too.

[Ironwood]

Like Doom 3 ?

[StGabe]

IYO.

IMO and according to a lot of the other complaints I've read, the system has a lot to do with it.  There's no crafting, combat isn't that actively engaging, grouping is too enforced and sucks when you aren't around a table with your friends, a lot of abilities don't make sense unless you look to their D&D analogues, etc.  A lot more than: OMG, the graphics r teh sux even though that may be true.  If the only complaints were that the graphics sucked and the content was short I'd expect a fair amount of people to be rather happy with the game even if they didn't play it for that long.

And the amount of content, IMO, has a lot to do with the attempt to capture the D&D license.  Dungeons that look the same are a symptom of having spent too long trying to flesh out the wrong sorts of things because you were held to a certain license/feel (problematic when you don't have the insane budgets of a Blizzard game).  If they hadn't been tied to the license they would have had more creative control to create content in a manageable fashion that worked within their limitations.

[Samwise]

IMO and according to a lot of the other complaints I've read, the system has a lot to do with it.  There's no crafting, combat isn't that actively engaging, grouping is too enforced and sucks when you aren't around a table with your friends, a lot of abilities don't make sense unless you look to their D&D analogues, etc.  A lot more than: OMG, the graphics r teh sux even though that may be true.  If the only complaints were that the graphics sucked and the content was short I'd expect a fair amount of people to be rather happy with the game even if they didn't play it for that long.

And the amount of content, IMO, has a lot to do with the license and the attempt to capture the D&D license.  Dungeons that look the same are a symptom of having tried too hard to capture the license that wasn't going to do a lot of the work for them and then being stretched too thin (problematic when you don't have the insane budget of a Blizzard).  If they hadn't been tied to the license they would have had more creative control to create content in a manageable fashion that worked within their limitations.

Have you played DDO?  Or D&D for that matter?  None of the things you list are products of the D&D license.  I could refute each one individually if it didn't mean SBing the thread to hell and back, but instead I'll just say that I disagree with what you said.

[Margalis]

Samwise won't SB but I will. 

There's no crafting, combat isn't that actively engaging, grouping is too enforced and sucks when you aren't around a table with your friends, a lot of abilities don't make sense unless you look to their D&D analogues, etc. 

1: Nothing in D&D rules prevents crafting. This is a weak point though you can argue that they wanted to stay true to the license and D&D isn't about crafting so the game isn't either.

2: D&D rules don't force grouping.

3: Grouping being less fun when you aren't eating pizza with your buddies in the same room is a fact of life. It has nothing to do with D&D rules. I could say the same about playing MarioKart with 4 players in your living room vs. over the net.

4: Abilities that don't make sense: this is your only complaint that has any merit. I agree that some of the abilities did not translate all that well.

A lot more than: OMG, the graphics r teh sux even though that may be true.  If the only complaints were that the graphics sucked and the content was short I'd expect a fair amount of people to be rather happy with the game even if they didn't play it for that long.

Here are the main complaints, not from me, but from people in general:

1: Not much content
2: Not much content variety
3: Have to group
4: Have to run the same quests over and over
5: Combat doesn't feel right.
6: Nothing to do except run quests, no other meta-game elements like crafting, etc
7: Graphically blah
8: Setting blah

Out of those, only 8 is tied directly to D&D and the world of Eberron. In real D&D you don't have to group, you don't have to run the same quests over and over, not every quest takes place in a basement, combat doesn't have bad sound effects, etc etc etc.

And the amount of content, IMO, has a lot to do with the attempt to capture the D&D license.  Dungeons that look the same are a symptom of having spent too long trying to flesh out the wrong sorts of things because you were held to a certain license/feel (problematic when you don't have the insane budgets of a Blizzard game). 

The people implementing the system are a totally different set of people than content designers. Given that you are a game developer I am surprised you would fall into this noob trap! (Saving throw vs. not understanding industry failed!)

The people creating the dungeons are content designers - planners, texture artists, 3d artists, etc. Those are NOT the same people implementing combat or making stealth work correctly or anything like that.

When I played D&D there were adventures on Jurassic Park style islands, adventures in Ravenloft, etc. D&D does have a lot of dungeon style adventures but in D&DO "sewer, basement, warehouse (AKS basement above ground)" describe tons of quests all with basically the same graphics, layouts, etc.

Even if every single quest takes place in a dungeon the dungeons could at least be constructed somewhat differently - use different colors, different layouts and architectures, etc. Why does every dungeon in the game have the same breakable barrel and box, and the same giant stack of crates everywhere?

That's a failure of content design.

Now it is quite possible that the people at the top were so obsessed with making saving roll vs. whatever so accurate they didn't bother checking up on the content design and didn't really care that it sucked - but that is NOT a problem with the D&D license, that's a problem with people not being competent at their jobs.

[Samwise]

Samwise won't SB but I will. 

I was secretly hoping someone else would do it.  Thank you.   

[StGabe]

Have you played DDO?  Or D&D for that matter? 

Yes and yes.  Of the latter, quite a lot.

And I think you guys are missing my point because you aren't able to look past first play experiences to the reality of developing the thing.  Having played DDO I saw a lot of effort made to capture the license and not a lot of great game left after that (i.e. combat wasn't that exciting, content was drab)..  Having actually spoken to a couple DDO devs I was told that this is where the emphasis was going.  In asking about other things, such as crafting, I was told: we just want core 3.5 in.  Because, obviously, that taps into an existing fanbase and brings certain associations along with it.  Associations that, IMO, aren't really going to be done justice because MMO's aren't anywhere near ready to capture the dynamic of tabletop gaming and even if they were, Turbine is spending too much effort on license details, with too little of a budget (compared to a giant budget like WoW's) to do it.

I'm not complaining about Eberron, I could care less about that.  I'm complaining about a relatively bland game that doesn't do much, IMO, other than meat the minimum contract of fulfilling the license, a license that creates more liabilities than opportunities.

Gabe.

[StGabe]

1: Not much content
2: Not much content variety
3: Have to group
4: Have to run the same quests over and over
5: Combat doesn't feel right.
6: Nothing to do except run quests, no other meta-game elements like crafting, etc
7: Graphically blah
8: Setting blah

All of these are very strongly tied to a development team whose priority is on fulfilling license responsiblities first.

Gabe.

[Samwise]

So when you said:

But the reality is that a license like that is mostly restrictive on a game design

you really meant to say:

But the reality is that a license like that requires time and effort to implement

correct?  I don't think the latter is really an earth-shaking statement.

[StGabe]

No, I meant to say the former.

The requirement of putting Jedis into SWG had a great effect on the design of that game.

A while ago I worked on a design for a Hasbro-licensed title.  I have lots of ideas for what I think are fun games.  I couldn't use most of them for that, however, as they don't work with the licensed property (and in the end, playing well with the license is more important to the people with money than being fun).

Gabe.

[Samwise]

The requirement of putting Jedis into SWG had a great effect on the design of that game.

Yes, it required that the game have Jedis in it, which, if the game were to follow the license at all, would need to be severely imbalanced with respect to all other character classes.  Class imbalance is bad, hence the convoluted "force sensitive" system to try to minimize the impact... et cetera.

I don't think you can draw parallels to DDO.  One of the big differences is that D&D is already designed as an RPG - translating the d20 ruleset to a computer game isn't trivial, but it doesn't require nearly as much overhead as trying to design a brand new ruleset that somehow represents reality established by movies and novels and turns it into a game.  I might even go so far as to say that a lot of design tasks are actually made easier by having the d20 ruleset to work from.  The SWG designers could never figure out what the hell a "smuggler" profession should entail in the context of a MMORPG - it's not exactly rocket science to figure out what a "wizard" or "barbarian" should be like.