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Author Topic: Warhammer Online  (Read 26462 times)
Arthur_Parker
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on: May 14, 2004, 05:07:46 AM

Not really paid much attention to this before so trying to gather some more info about it, especially if anyone managed to see this at E3.  

I was a big Warhammer FRPG fan for a long time and even worked for GW for a couple of years 91-93.  I sorta lost interest in their PC games after trying a few of the early ones and although they had good points they were generally roughly made.

Read a piece here today and then checked out their FAQ here.

I liked this.

Quote
Will there be Player versus Player (PvP) combat in Warhammer Online?

In Warhammer Online there will be 3 distinct types of Player versus Player combat available.

The first of these is career specific, for example, Witch Hunters will be flagged for Player versus Player combat against Witches, Necromancers, Demonists and other advanced career evildoers. When a Witch Hunter encounters a member of one of these careers they will both be able to engage in combat, regardless of their location.

Second there is location specific Player versus Player combat. There will be certain areas in Warhammer Online within which Player versus Player combat will be activated. These areas can range from the pit in the Pit Fighters Guild to city-slums and some small, obvious areas of the wilderness, a ruined Chaos temple for example. Combat within these areas will be a free-for-all.

Thirdly there will be Player versus Player Brawling. Brawling will be a non-lethal form of Unarmed Combat which players will be able to participate in. Brawling areas will be limited to Taverns, and should be an excellent way to unwind after a hard days adventuring.

In the case of Player versus Player combat and brawling, it will be made clear to your character when you are entering one of these areas.

Player versus Player combat will not be included for Warrior Companies as such at launch. There is however, nothing to stop members from rival companies arranging a showdown with each other in a Player versus Player area, or even sending out a Company Champion do to one-on-one combat in a Pit Fight.

As a final note there is currently some development work being done on Player versus Player Items. If a player has one of these items on their person other players would be able to attack them, and ultimately obtain the item for themselves. Items like this open the way to ‘Capture-the-Flag’ style events and quests.


I also like the fact they don't have a con system and if you have read any of their novels they really do dark gothic fantasy better than anything else I have read.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #1 on: May 14, 2004, 06:10:15 AM

I played the roleplaying version of warhammer for several years. Not sure what to think of this to be honest. We'll see in the long run.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sky
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Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 07:09:40 AM

GW is sitting on a great license for games and the only one I think I ever enjoyed was Blood Bowl. But then, I was a fan of WH40K, not WH.
Aslan
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Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 07:24:56 AM

Quote from: Riggswolfe
I played the roleplaying version of warhammer for several years. Not sure what to think of this to be honest. We'll see in the long run.


Yes, it has your three least favorite words...well, besides "You in yet?", and those words are PvP...
Riggswolfe
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Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 07:30:36 AM

Quote from: Aslan


Yes, it has your three least favorite words...well, besides "You in yet?", and those words are PvP...


PvP attracts to many inbred 12 year olds. So yes, this semi-forced PvP they have doesn't exactly give me a woody. More like "great, more lazy developers who don't know how to make an immersive game world so are hoping characters kill each other to keep the players entertained."

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 07:59:50 AM

Quote from: Riggswolfe

PvP attracts to many inbred 12 year olds. So yes, this semi-forced PvP they have doesn't exactly give me a woody. More like "great, more lazy developers who don't know how to make an immersive game world so are hoping characters kill each other to keep the players entertained."


A comment of yours on the WoW thread below.

Quote from: Riggswolfe

Look, if you play a game and don't like it bitch all you want. It's sorta silly to bitch about something you've never tried. It reminds me of those senators who try to get video games banned when most of them have never even seen one. If it is egomaniacal and condescending to say try it before you say you don't like it then I guess every parent on this planet is a condescending egomaniac.


It's fine to post you don't like PVP, it's fine to insult those who like a different playstyle (inbred 12 year olds), in fact it's almost a requirement in some parts.  It's also fine to insult the work of devs for a game even before the Beta starts (lazy developers), I just think it's funny, given your earlier statement.
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Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 08:17:48 AM

Do not taunt the wow fanboi, do not taunt the wow fanboi.
HaemishM
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Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 08:53:51 AM

I am really worried for Warhammer Online. I played GW games for many years (though never the RPG), and while I loved their dark angtsy goth take on Tolkien, their rules always managed to bring out the cheese dick in anyone that played them for any length of time. Their repeated overcharging on minis is finally what drove me away from them. They do some decent games, with loopholes you can drive a truck through. When I heard they were doing an MMOG, it did not inspire confidence in me. They have continually picked developers with no fucking clue how to make a good game, as well as constantly trying to square peg in round hole their game systems. Instead of doing what the fans of the game would sacrifice their own mothers for, i.e. translating their tabletop games DIRECTLY into computerized versions, they've put out hybrid POS games that really weaken their brand instead of building it.

That said, I'm very interested in some of the direction they are going with WHO. They've been flip-flopping back and forth about PVP for years, but I like the way they are including it now. But none of that matters if the combat sucks. Plz to not make teh combat teh suck.

daveNYC
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Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 09:01:54 AM

I've been keeping my eye on this one.  They have some nice ideas, don't know how they will work out in practice though.  Last time I checked their boards, they were populated by uber-geek types who knew the entire history of the Warhammer world.  That gives me some small hope for the game, as the feedback they were giving the developers seemed focused on keeping the core elements of the Warhammer game intact.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: daveNYC
Last time I checked their boards, they were populated by uber-geek types who knew the entire history of the Warhammer world.  That gives me some small hope for the game, as the feedback they were giving the developers seemed focused on keeping the core elements of the Warhammer game intact.


I joined their forum today but not worked up the bravery to post as yet.  I keep getting flashbacks to a kid who kept asking me who would win in a fight between Khorne and 1000 Snotlings.  I had to threatened to ban him from the store if kept talking to me.

GW staff had an expression for the extreme rules nut, the dreaded "Bearded Nigel", someone you never ever wanted to engage in conversation with on any subject.

The PC game space hulk was terrible, a simple great tactic game ruined by introducing RTS elements that were not needed at all.  The 2 WHFB games and 1 40k game I played were buggy at best.
daveNYC
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Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 10:21:22 AM

I liked the original Space Hulk game.  It had atmosphere.
Furiously
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Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 11:14:01 AM

If by atmosphere you mean "Game over man, Game over!!!!". Felt very much like Aliens - the tabletop.

daveNYC
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Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 12:02:43 PM

Quote from: Furiously
If by atmosphere you mean "Game over man, Game over!!!!". Felt very much like Aliens - the tabletop.

Yep.  Usually about 30 seconds into any of the scenarios I was wondering why we weren't just nuking the hulk into a glowing blob from a safe distance.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #13 on: May 14, 2004, 12:26:43 PM

[geek]Think the stated reason for that was the hulks contained a wealth of old technology that was very valuable to the Imperium and hence worth the risk.[/geek]
Jain Zar
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Reply #14 on: May 14, 2004, 02:42:32 PM

People have made their own versions of the actual Space Hulk games.  Those are kinda fun, though still a little hard.  I am totally not interested in this MMORPG though.  Sounds dumb.
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Reply #15 on: May 14, 2004, 02:50:31 PM

I'd be a lot more interested if it was the 40K universe.

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Reply #16 on: May 14, 2004, 10:33:50 PM

Add me to that list. 40K DOES have good background, and a original storyline of some sort (ok, elves, orks and bugs in space ain't new...but).

I saw the 40k crappy trailer of the tabletop conversion. I can't see how you're suppoosed to CONTROL it, but the blood guts and general WAAGGHHH seemed apporitate and correct for 40K.

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #17 on: May 14, 2004, 11:47:17 PM

Found some interviews if anyone wants to read some more about the Fantasy online game, the design of the faq and offical website are fairly crap.

Gamer.TV 1

Gamer.TV 2

Gamespy

Rpgvault 1

Rpgvault 2

Couple of questions and responses I liked below.

Quote
GameSpy: How many different races will the game launch with? How many career paths?
Robin Dews: I'm assuming that you mean playable races, in which case we'll be launching the game with: Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, Halflings and Ogres and including male and female variants of all of these (with the exception of Ogres -- ugly female Ogres?!) to give nine basic character types.

When you create your in-game character you'll also have to select their basic 'personality' out of four archetypes. These are: Warrior (big, strong and stupid!), Academic (weedy and clever), Rogue (crafty and sneaky) and Adventurer (combination of all three).

Because of the way in which the skills and careers system works, your initial choices with respect to race and archetype are less critical than with a class/race mechanic. In Warhammer Online you'll have a great deal more freedom about how your character develops as you move in and out of the various skills and careers.

In terms of hard numbers we expect to launch the game with over 120 different career options for the players to follow.
GameSpy: How many different types of magic will be represented in the game and how will your magic system be different from other games?
Robin Dews: Magic in the Warhammer world works in a very different way to other fantasy game settings and we've tried very hard to keep that feel as well as simulating some of the more unique aspects.

All magic in the world stems from Chaos itself. Magical energy enters the world from the shattered Warp gates at the planets poles, and streams across the landscape altering and affecting everything it comes into contact with. It's this magical energy that causes Chaos monsters and other dark horrors to exist and it's also this energy that spell casters tap into to cast their spells.

Wizards in the Warhammer world cast spells by channeling magical energy directly from their surroundings. This means that magic using characters and creatures do not have an inherent pool of â??manaâ?? to draw from but they instead tap into these Winds of Magic and channel the ambient power through themselves to work it into the spell they are trying to cast. Once that magical energy has been tapped by a wizard it is gone from the pool and it will need to be replenished with the passage of time.

In terms of the game we keep track of many different values to help us simulate these Winds of Magic. For any given area of the game world we know both the maximum possible magical field strength as well as the current rate at which the field is refilling. By varying those numbers we can create a wide variety of effects and have areas where the magic is strong but refills slowly or where the magic field is very small but refreshes very quickly, or any other combination we like.

In addition to the Winds of Magic various other things have an effect on the magical field strengths. Standing stones help focus the magical energies and will add to the rate at which an area refills, the moons of the Warhammer world have a large effect on the size of the magical fields themselves as well as the fill rates, which means that magic in the world will vary with each lunar cycle.

Spells themselves require a set amount of magical energy to cast and any specific spell will always cost the same amount of power, whether a novice or a master is casting it. The difference comes in the amount of time a spell caster takes to actually cast that spell. Let me give you an example. If a fireball spell requires 100 power to cast and a novice wizard can channel and focus 1 point of power per second, it's going to take him 100 seconds to cast. If a master wizard can channel 10 points of power per second then that same spell will only take him 10 seconds to cast it.

However, channeling this power has it's price. Spell casters take damage every second the magical energies are passing through them. Going back to my previous example the novice wizard is going to get to badly hurt casting that fireball spell as it takes him a long time to focus the energy. The master wizard probably won't even think twice, although casting that fireball over and over again is really going to take it out of him. This also means that there's nothing stopping a novice wizard from trying to cast a very powerful spell, as long as he can find some way to survive the experience.

Oh, and there's one more thing that any potential mage should bear in mind. Generally this focusing and channeling of magical energy is not 100% efficient. The higher your skill the better you are but it's never totally perfect. What this means is that when a character attempts to cast that fireball he actually drawn more than 100 points of power from the environment, he's just used 100 to power his spell. This extra magic -- the dirty exhaust or wild magic as we're calling it, doesn't just disappear. It gets tracked and once it builds up to certain levels unpredictable and usually dangerous things occur. Demons are drawn to this build up of power and when the wild magic reaches a certain level there's a good chance that one will draw on that wild magic pool and manifest itself. Random spells will be triggered and cast using the Wild magic as a power source. Basically magic in the Warhammer world is a dangerous thing to mess around with but as long as you're prepared for the risks the rewards and great.

There are a lot more aspects to the magic system that I could go into such as:


The Winds of Magic are actually divided into eight colors of magic and wizards can learn to draw from one color specifically.


Drawing the magical energy from an area is actually a good tactic when facing a magic using monster.


Several magic users can join together and use rituals to help channel the magical energies faster.


Scattered throughout the world are pieces of Warpstone. This material is essentially raw magic condensed into solid form and foolhardy wizards can use it to power their own magics.


Channeling magic all over the place is generally not something that the populous of Warhammer approve of and is likely to get you burnt at the stake if you're not careful.

Anyway hopefully that should help explain roughly what we're trying to do with the magic system and why I'm very pleased with what we've come up with.


Quote
GameSpy: Tell us a bit about PVP - I have read that it will be based on opposing career paths (i.e. Witch/Witch hunter).
Robin Dews: Yea, very much so. This was Warhammer after all and we needed to include PvP in order to include the 'edge' that it gives to the game play. At the same time -- and in common with other online games -- we had to come up with a solution that would prevent grief players from going around causing mayhem!

I think that Camelot came up with a fantastic solution to PvP with their Realm system and hats off to them. However, we wanted something that was rather more integrated with our core game play.

We've already described how the skill system has been structured around a career tree that will allow our players to develop their characters in a very unique and very Warhammer way. In terms of PvP, at the top end of this tree some of the careers will start to branch into mutually antagonistic pairs (or groups). To use your example; if your character acquires the requisite skills and standing and decides to join the Witch Hunter's you will indeed receive a notice to say that you are entering a PvP career path and equally with Chaos Cultists and Witches. Other examples might include; Outlaws and Bounty Hunters or Road Wardens and Highwaymen, etc. Some of these careers will be specifically targeted at an opposing career and some will include a broader range of groups.

We had a couple of ambitions for this system. First and foremost we wanted to include PvP in the game, but in a way that was consensual between players, and limited to people who had developed their characters to a reasonably high level and had an affinity for the game and the game world.

The second was that we wanted the PvP to be visible to other players in the game. We thought it would be kind of cool for you to be able to see the fights going on around you, but still feel protected either as a newbie, or as someone who doesn't want to get into that style of game play.


The important thing to note here is that the PvP elements of the game are entirely voluntary. Because specific skills are repeated across the career tree it should be perfectly possible for you to develop a character to the highest levels of skill and still avoid the PvP game if you so wish.

It simply comes down to designing a game that can accommodate as many different styles of play as you have players without blanding out the whole system -- I think this will be pretty cool.


Quote
GameSpy: Tell us what you've learned from some of the other MMORPGs on the market? Tell us about some of the conventions of current MMOGs you find appealing and the conventions you'd like to avoid.
Robin Dews: I think that there are good bits in all of the current MMOGs and I have nothing but respect for the design teams and the players that have stuck with them through the whole world of pain it takes to design, develop and deliver a good MMOG. I really do believe that they represent the future of gaming and that once you've played in either a persistent world, or other kind of online game you'll never again be satisfied with the limits of AI.

The distinctive factor (other than the large number of players) that separates an MMOG from a simple game with some multiplayer functionality is that each episodic playing session builds towards a longer-term goal. Despite having had any number of launch problems, this is what distinguishes an MMOG such as World War 2 Online from a game like Battlefield 1942.

In terms of what we've learned:


Give your players good feedback. Whether you intend to log on for a quick 15 minutes or settle down for an extended marathon, you should be able to log out at the end of your session with the sense that you've achieved something and advanced your character in the world.


Give your players lots to do. Even when they've got nothing to do, let them do something!

Immerse your players. Make them believe that the world is wider, deeper, broader, higher, more treacherous, deadly and dangerous than you can possibly make it and then they'll never want to leave.

All good MMOGs deliver all three of the above. Whether they are able to do it with that special 'something' that turns the erudite into the extraordinary is a different matter!

I've already mentioned the PvP system from DAoC, which is such a clever piece of design. The only problem it leaves in its wake is that when you finally snap and decide to go out and butcher that annoying NPC merchant, you're told that you can't attack another member of your Realm -- Doh! Equally in EQ, that simple farmer and his family suddenly turn into Ninja warriors if you so much a sneer at them!

Corpse runs are so discredited that they have become part of the lexicon of Online gaming, but I also have little empathy for praying at a gravestone! In fact player death in MMOGs is always going to be a bit of a fudge. We looked at mediaeval combat and realized that it was largely focused on incapacitating your opponent. Most casualties in battle were either the result of them being deliberately killed with a knife thrust once they were on the ground or they died of infected wounds before the age of antibiotics! What you'll see in Warhammer Online is players losing all their 'wounds' and falling to the ground. They can either remain there conscious but unable to move, get patched up by a colleague, or 'revive' -- in which case they pass out and then re-enter the game through either a voluntary or involuntary revival point.

The one area of MMOGs that we felt could be really improved upon was the combat. The thing that makes combat in the real world exciting is the fact that it is unpredictable. Two things conspire together in the current crop of MMOGs to make combat almost entirely predictable and these are the various monster conning systems and the poor monster AI.

You know the score. You click on that monster and get a red or blue or green bar that tells you how hard its going to be to fight it and what the most likely outcome is going to be. I can't think of anything more calculated to take the 'edge' and hence the excitement out of combat. In Warhammer Online, we are going for a visually arresting game and so if you see an 8` tall Orc in full plate armor with a big axe, then your own intelligence should tell you that this guy is going to be hard!

The generally poor AI also means that groups of 'adventurers' routinely get together and 'pull' monsters one at a time before beating them to pulp in an orgy of violence! This seems very unfair on the monsters and so we are aiming for an AI system that will allow them to 'assess' whether to enter combat with a larger party, or whether to go and get their mates!

Despite the reams of pseudo-academic nonsense that have been published about MMOGs, I think that the rules are really very simple.


MMOGs are services not products. They have little to do with computer games and the ways in which they are sold.


People like to play games in which they can 'recognize the reality'. This applies to any game from Monopoly to Mah Jong. In 'real' life people develop their personalities by acquiring three 'things' -- they acquire possessions, they acquire skills, and they acquire relationships. Mimic this is in a game and people will 'recognize the reality'.


Put these two things together. Make a fun game that people will want to play and back it up with great customer service -- easy:
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #18 on: May 16, 2004, 04:55:51 PM

Release date looks like at least Q1 2005.

Did some searching on the original source material and discovered Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is being updated to version 2 according to this press release.  Thought this was interesting as it also mentions 2005, a join marketing campaign via the hundreds of stores possibly?  Money off voucher in the RPG book on a tear out strip with similar in White Dwarf for the online game is the way I would go about it.

Things get more interesting as this press release hints of a Warhammer 40k RPG.

Climax are also hoping for a future 40k version online "We currently have no plans for a '40K online game, but if the first one is as successful as we all hope it will be then it is definitely something we will consider."

With Games Workshop going from Annual Net Income ($ mil.) 5.3 to 18 as of last year, they could be looking to expand big time into the online market.
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Reply #19 on: May 16, 2004, 04:57:48 PM

They should've done 40k first. I don't see myself hocking money for a month in the fantasy world. There's enough of them around. But 40k? Hell yes. I've started playing Fallout 2 again lately because I need a fix of futuristic sci-fi done right.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #20 on: May 16, 2004, 05:13:03 PM

It's a different audience though, they aren't targeting players from other mmorpgs.  They have 280 stores to hard sell from.  Biggest problems will be the graphics (artists been working mostly in 2d, though Citadel mini design staff work in 3d) and the client, content is not an issue, I imagine that's why they went fantasy first they have content to burn, 17 years of it, already written for a fantasy roleplaying game.  White Dwarf was fully computerised even in 1992, cut and paste for profit.

I got uncomfortable and left when they specifically mentioned they wanted to target 14 year old boys (aside from a natural feeling of discomfort with anyone interested in young boys) they also kept raising the prices even though common company knowledge was they were the most profitable company in the UK based on percentage of turnover in 1992. (might have been 3rd most profitable now I think about it).

I might just buy some stock depending how the Beta goes.  New Gamespy E3 preview here.
Sky
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Reply #21 on: May 17, 2004, 03:55:23 PM

I hate GW with a burning passion for driving out other miniature and paint makers from the local hobby shops in the area, replacing it with minis specific to only their game and dayglo crapola paints, both horridly overpriced.

I do give them credit for making some nicely detailed minis. But that's it, and it can be the most detailed mini in the world, but if you need a beholder, you're fucked.
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Reply #22 on: May 18, 2004, 11:52:29 AM

I can't get myself to hate anyone for aggressive use of capitalism.  So MS, GW, and Walmart all avoid my hatred on a daily basis.  GW minis are too much money for me so I don't buy them EVER at full price.

I wait till I see them half price and then buy a few.  All I have bought in the last 5 years or so was a minotaur, and several bloodbowl teams for $6 each on closeout.

I don't see the urge to hate them.  Might as well hate your local store for not expanding when they added all the GW stuff so they could still fit the old stuff you liked.  My local hobby shop is in a big warehouse and they are easily a GW shop even though they have more space devoted to freaking Teeshirts than GW minis.  Your local store dropped the products you wanted, not GW.

As I said, I agree they are WAY overpriced, but that does not stop me from not buying them.  These days I am lazy and would more likely play one of the click games instead anyway.  They look pretty easy to setup.

The WHO (war hammer online) devs seem to know what people want.  The question now is do they have the money, time, and skills to make it a reality.  Big grain of salt from me, but I am sort of watching it out of the corner of my eye.
Ezdaar
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Reply #23 on: May 18, 2004, 12:56:18 PM

My dislike of GW is similar to Sky's reasons. It's quite annoying that the local stores only carry GW stuff and on top of that their prices are goddamn ridiculous. Their minis are decent quality, but certainly not worth what they charge for them.

Having said that, WHO looks interesting but I'll wait a year and see where they are in 2005.
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Reply #24 on: May 18, 2004, 02:31:30 PM

The 40K RTS(bittorrents) looks good.  After half-life 2 it's what I'm most interested in from the E-3 reports.

I'm alot more interested in the RTS than in yet another MMOG anyway.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #25 on: May 19, 2004, 01:47:28 AM

Robin Dews has written a Diary about Games Workshop's E3 trip.

Also Casters Realm has a preview up with a lot of new information.

Quoted it all below as I had trouble accessing the site for a while.

Quote
E3 PREVEW OF WARHAMMER ONLINE, MAY 18, 2004
by Ophelea
Introduction

In the world of MMORPGs clean and pristine rule supreme. Warhammer Online plans to change that. Developers have been trying to capture the "casual" gamer. Warhammer Online doesn't want you. If you need an addiction, if you need to get down and dirty, if you want to fight on the side of evil or simply brawl because beating your mate with a beer bottle is good clean fun, this is the MMO for you.

Games Workshop has been very quiet about their upcoming MMO in previous years, but at E3 this year they opened up. And boy what a show! The client we were shown was not complete - shadows were not yet added and they'd just completed dynamic lighting so in some ways characters gave the feeling of plastic - but, make no mistake, this is going to be the world of Warhammer. For those unfamiliar with the universe you may want to visit the Games Workshop website at http://www.games-workshop.com.  Think of it this way - take Dungeons and Dragons and make it dirty; dirty and maggoty and rotting and then make it funny. You'll get a feeling for the universe.

With 30 years of backstory in books, pen and paper roleplaying (Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay), miniatures and White Dwarf magazine, the universe is enormous! As a result, it can be so utterly defined as to give the developers fits at times. The first part of the presentation gave quite a feel for exactly how important it is to Games Workshop that their game represents Warhammer totally and completely. Only one color of green is allowed for goblins. One, period. Orcs can have only one color but the designers were allowed to use tribal paints to differentiate - but only 4 colors of tribal paints. Buildings are modular like Legos and had to have each module approved. And each building type will only fit in one setting; each belongs to a certain area of the world. The world is intended to look like medieval Germany - anything that doesn't follow that, doesn't get added. It was interesting to try to determine whether this allowed the devs more freedom to develop (with such specific guidelines) or limited their abilities. Either way, it's worked to create THE Warhammer world.

Where to begin...I have so much information!

Character Creation

Characters come in 5 possible races - Ogres, Dwarves, Humans, Elves and Halflings.

Ogres only come in males and it was stated in no uncertain terms that although art was created for females it was just too ugly and would not work. You'll have your standard choices of height, color, etc when building your character but only within the limits of the Warhammer world. For example, Elves only have black eyes. You'll choose your basic career background - warrior, thief, academic or adventurer. From here you'll pool points to select a career. Every character will have the most basic skills of running, climbing, etc and must then choose their path from there.

A most basic career would be that of Ratcatcher. You gain the skills of Ratcatcher through use both vertically and horizontally. But, you may take this profession only because you have an ultimate profession in mind that requires you have a skill of x amount in stealth. Once you reach that, you may take the profession of Ranger and continue on a path of changing professions until you reach your ultimate goal.

The skills you obtain while in your profession don't become unavailable as you leave but they will degrade in quality. If you stop using your archery skill you'll always be a good archer but not an excellent one. So, should you continue to use it occasionally you'll lose only partial reduction in skills. If you never use it again you'll drop that skill to a base dependent upon where you left the profession. Conversely, while you're in a certain profession you'll receive a bonus to those skills as you'll be "apprenticing" and learning as you go.

You advance in your career through adventuring (there will be little true hunting of spawns in this game) and through career masters. The career masters will help you advance at higher levels by giving you quests that may take you weeks or even months to complete.

Environment

The environment in WOL is completely dynamic. There are no zones to load and changes will occur through night and day cycles, seasons and the spread of Chaos throughout the land. You will not be able to depend upon your favorite town and surrounding area to be safe from one day to the next. During the evening Skeletons will be more prevalent. Areas that have fallen to Chaos will spawn completely different creatures. And, should you not clear them, Chaos will spread and prevail.

This is something very key about WOL, your actions (or inactions) will change the land surrounding you. Should you not keep Chaos at bay, or intentionally choose to side with Chaos, the land can and will be eventually taken over. This will result in a server reset with a Reward or Punishment for the side you stood for. If you stood against Chaos you'll always receive some reward. Whether you do as the prevailing victor for Chaos will depend upon when you chose sides. Someone who worked to spread Chaos from the beginning will be rewarded; someone who did so to "jump on the bandwagon" will be punished for taking advantage of the situation.

The world is huge - 400 sq kilometers and there are no means of teleportation to get you anywhere. Magic of that type doesn't exist in Warhammer. You could try and run but that would take you about 6 hours. Not to mention that after 3 minutes you'd become completely exhausted and fall to the ground. So how do you get around? Boats and horses. They've cheated a little with the boats (it would still be a several hour trip up the water) so instead of a portal you'll enter a fog that will bring you out to your destination. They indicated that horses would simply be a faster way of foot travel. Oh, and something you could mount if a Knight and you wanted to fight!

You'll also be able to interact with your environment - move barrels, open caskets, etc. And this won't be static. It will all depend upon the state of the area and the storyline at the time.

Combat and Monsters (or more Environment)

Static spawns simply don't exist in WOL. Forget about camping, it won't work. But not only that, spawns will fight each other. This sounds like just a cool feature until you realize that it means in order to keep the type of spawns in your area that you want (good vs chaos, individual vs hoard) you're going to have to get out there and fight. Now it sounds like a VERY cool feature.

An example could be a lone goblin walking around who comes upon another goblin, and then another. Once they reach a certain threshold then orcs may begin to spawn. Again, if left unchecked, at a certain threshold giants may begin to spawn. Now, instead of a loan goblin you've got a group of 30-40 creatures bent on destroying you and your town. And they will.

Towns are not just areas of respite, in fact they're the opposite. You can think of them as urban dungeons. A great profession to take would be that of Town Guard - you'd never run out of things to do. But, say there simply aren't enough town guards and you've left that mob unchecked. It's going to walk into your town and overrun it. Your NPCs will fight to save the town but should they lose they will stop working. Players will have to take the town back and place a predetermined number of guards in position before the city will be considered cleansed again. And this would be with non-chaos aligned monsters. A city that falls to Chaos has even more to contend with.

Combat could be more complex, but not by much. This is no "whack-a-mole" game. First off, until you've fought a monster you'll not know anything about it. You can't ID it, won't know its agro style, tactics or even class. Once you have done so (and died) you'll get an entry in your bestiary that will indicate its agro style and tactics but not its level or comparison to your own. Until you beat it, you'll not know that you've outgrown it. And perhaps then you won't have, for creatures can decide and change their own tactics. A lone wolf may run away until it finds a group to attack you with; a goblin will just charge in; while a Beastman will lure you to a chaos stone to gather friends and ensure you're in an area of peril.

But then again, a monster may look at you, decide you're entirely too powerful for it based upon your equipment and run from you. Great! So you decide to chase it, but monsters are loyal to their areas. You won't be chasing a winter wolf out of the snow. It will just run.

Now that you've come upon creatures how do you attack? You've got to take into account strategy, tactics, whether the monster is passive or aggressive, fights in groups and what type of weapon will work best – all before it decides what to use upon you. And your damage isn't dependent completely upon your weapon - your body type and skill come heavily into play. A halfling with a knife is going to do completely different damage than an ogre with a shortsword. Weapons are also wielded differently by different races. To expect a halfling to use a claymore is unreasonable but how a man vs ogre would wield it again, will result in a very different experience. Oh, and make sure to whack em good in the leg. A monster with an injured leg runs more slowly than one without.

Magic! Magic you say, use Magic! Uh...be careful. This is Warhammer. In the world you'll find the Winds of Magic and from here you'll pull the necessary "mana" to cast your spell. Spells are not limited by level. However a less experienced caster may find themselves on the ground passed out by trying to cast something out of his skill - then again he may succeed. However, using the Winds of Magic changes the polarity of the Winds. Should you not let them recharge they will begin to become chaotic. That group of wolves you were just fighting may be joined through a rip in time/space by a group of Beastmen and now you've turned what was once a lovely area simply overrun by giants and goblins into the Realm of Chaos.

Are you sure you want that magic user with you? Trust me, he's not going to be a flashy mage...



PvP and Death

First off, no one dies in Warhammer. You may be defeated and find yourself back at the local pub covered in vomit, blood and the remains of your previous fight. Where else would your mates take a fallen comrade but back to the local physician in town? Of course, they could just dump you in the gutter and you'll have to find your way back.

This seems a good place to talk about how you'll find your way back. You will have in-game maps but they'll be empty except for those areas you've explored. Customization has not yet been decided upon nor has the coordinate system. But with a seasonal landscape things can be interesting.

Ok, you're alive again and must recover - or perhaps you're just trying to withstand the battle. Your first 50% of damage will recover very quickly. Your second half less so, but you can expect it to take no more than 2 minutes to recover while not in combat.

I know, I haven't mentioned the PvP yet. I'm getting there! PvP in Warhammer Online will exist on three different levels. There will be profession-based PvP. If you're a Witchhunter and I'm a Witch the chances of us liking each other are slim and we can PvP whenever we please. There will be dangerous back alleys. Pay attention to when you're told you're entering these areas - anything goes and you could end up bloodied and beaten.

And then there's brawling. In certain taverns you'll have the option to brawl for fun with your friends and enemies alike. But, only if you've been drinking. And only if you use bottles, broken chairs or your fists. This is, after all, a good clean fight!

Crafting and the Economy

Tradeskills will exist but they won't be tied to the economy like a traditional MMO. In fact, there won't be an economy as we're used to. It was stated that someone could have as much gold as they wanted - who cares? This game is about killing. It's about blood. It's about Chaos - siding with it or not.

That's not to say there won't be crafting. You'll have armorsmithing, weaponsmithing, Dwarves can make beer (we must brawl!) and Halflings can make pies (poisoning is a subtle art). Also, your armor and weaponry will be damaged from time to time and require repair. Without these handy crafters you'll soon find yourself with a notched sword and punctured armor.

Also, crafters play an important part in master quests. Most of the time, a crafter will make something of special value and keep it for himself. But, perhaps for your next level of skill advancement your career master will require you to find the necessary resources and a crafter of sufficient skill to make an item for you. In this case, you'll not only receive the item but also the XP. This should also help to stem the flooding of the market with special items as you'll not be able to receive one unless questing for it.

General Information

Guilds will exist both traditional and non-traditional. The career path you're following will have a guild of its own with items, chests and quests to help you advance. Players can form companies - bands of brothers - to fight against their common enemy. But forced grouping is not a part of Warhammer (just a wise choice).

There is no player housing - this game is "about killing stuff". (get used to that line!)

There is a Fame system that can greatly affect how an NPC in town will react to you. You have choices along your paths and each one changes where you stand on the side of Chaos. Change that ever so slightly and you may find that bartender who was helpful with information will no longer even acknowledge your presence. Your decisions will affect how you can play the game. Also, death will affect your fame. Die too often and no one will offer you a quest - you've become unreliable.

GM-led events should be plentiful. The town we were shown had over 150 buildings (all unique) in it but not all were able to be entered. They are designed in such a manner that doors can be locked or unlocked at will according to the storyline. An NPC that appeared one month may not be there the next. And how an event occurs on a server will be dependent upon how much that server is in the grips of Chaos. Not every player will have the same experience. Server divergence is such a wonderful thing!

Character animations extend beyond running, jumping and sitting. You can expect to swim - there may be a quest where only a halfling is small enough to fit in the sewers - and you will be able to climb. Each race will have its own animation. Oh yes, and you can dance. Although I wouldn't call the Tai Chi the elves do dancing - not much merriment in that!

You can expect the UI to not only be customizable but also to have xml files to design your own.

And finally...don't plan on running off the edge or the world. They've placed the nastiest beasts possible there to hedge you in. You'll just have to wait for an expansion!

As you can see there is a lot to Warhammer Online that we've not even seen the surface of! Hopefully, after 3 years of hiding we'll start to see more and more of this unique and exciting MMO.


Server reset bit they got wrong as confirmed from wo forums by Gevrik.

Quote
Good Morrow guys, I'll grab some of the new questions and answer them all in one big thread later today.

As for the server reset thing, I think that the nice bloke from Casters Realm was a bit confused by the magic that our designer Paul Barnett weaved on him.

As for server resets, there will be none! Period. We're not going to let our players develop their characters just to take them away because of Chaos taking over the world.

Chaos Taint is a unique feature of the Warhammer Online servers. If the players fight a lot of Chaos Creatures and participate successfully in events that involve Chaos activities, the Chaos Taint will go down. If the players neglect to fight Chaos and just let it run rampant on the world, the Taint will rise to heretic proportions and more Chaos entities will enter the world... Really bad things can happen, theoretically, there could be invasions on major towns, leaving them destroyed and for the players to re-conquer and rebuild.

Hope that clarifies that 'server reset' thing and spares some of you a heart-attack.


I like an awful lot of what I'm hearing about this game so far.
Alluvian
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Reply #26 on: May 19, 2004, 07:18:25 AM

It screams Horizons before the media blackout though.  I don't think they can even come close to pulling this off.  We shall see.  I like what they are saying, but I don't believe it.  Not for a second at this stage.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #27 on: May 19, 2004, 07:44:55 AM

I know what you mean, so many good ideas, going to be a miracle if the thing is playable.

Check this for example.

Quote
James Foran - What level of GM interaction is planned? Can we expect to encounter GM/Staff controlled NPC’s on a daily basis? Or will they be once in a blue moon affairs with the whole player base all-rushing to meet them. Personally I’d happily pay a much higher monthly fee if it meant that there would be many dedicated GM NPC’s or script actors.

Robin Dews - Another interesting one James that I can’t quite answer right now… As you know we have decided to reserve the Skaven as a GM controlled race in keeping with their game background as a corrupted and secretive force, plotting and manipulating behind the scenes to take control of the world - all seems pretty appropriate to me! :-)

We would like to be able to have GM triggered events and plots right across the world, but as you’ve rightly identified, this will come with a cost – staff want paying damn them! Right now I can’t give you any more detail on this, but the facility to have the GM’s take over control of standard NPC’s is being engineered into the software.


Is that a cool idea or what?
HaemishM
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Reply #28 on: May 19, 2004, 11:27:11 AM

Quote from: Murgos
The 40K RTS(bittorrents) looks good.  After half-life 2 it's what I'm most interested in from the E-3 reports.

I'm alot more interested in the RTS than in yet another MMOG anyway.


After watching that video with a buddy of mine that I used to play 40k with, all we could say was "WOW!" That video is an overdose of teh shiney if ever there was one. It's also a 40k fans wet dream. I know the first thing I'll have to turn off to make that run right will be shadows, followed by dynamic lighting, etc. And if they do not have a single or multiplayer skirmish mode (set up 2 forces with some sort of points buy system), then they will deserve a crotch-pox for their heresy.

But I am now actually looking forward to Dawn of War.

Arthur_Parker
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Reply #29 on: May 19, 2004, 02:41:07 PM

That 40k movie is intense just downloaded it, not played a rts for years but that's totally insane action.  Especially liked the marine getting the chainsaw love, guess he failed his saving throw.
Miscreant
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Reply #30 on: May 19, 2004, 03:44:07 PM

Wow.  Wowie wow wow.  That demo movie was incredible.  

The hero climbs on the demon's head for the killing blow -- and that was just one of many cool battle exchanges.  That stuff is hard to get right.  Incredible graphical attention to detail for an RTS.  I hope they manage that kind of polish throughout the final game.

schild
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Reply #31 on: May 19, 2004, 03:58:07 PM

I'm downloading this movie at the moment. I'm afraid to watch it. I've been waiting for a good Warhammer computer game since the beginning of time. If this turns out to be as good as you all say, I'm going to cry. Hard. I'm just so used to it being one game that should've stayed on the tabletop.

Just watched it, and all I have to say is, GODDAMN, why does Warhammer online look so bad and Warhammer Dawn of War look SO good.
Alluvian
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Reply #32 on: May 20, 2004, 07:39:51 AM

Myself, my wife and my best friend just looped that thing last night.  Holy shit that is one of the most fun looking games I have ever seen (dawn of war).  All I want to know is where to send my check.

The game looks just about perfect.  They even do morale and the squads right.  The rebuildable army is not exactly the un reinforcable squads of the board game, but making resources only dependent on holding capture points makes perfect sense and is a very good way of handling it.  RTS unit building with objectives right out of the tabletop mini game.

Watching things like the eldar Avatar of War in action was awe inspiring.  And then seeing the librarian go ballistic on the bloodthirster, jumping up on his back to deliver the death blow... wow.

The single player will be Blood Ravens only, so ork, eldar, and chaos are multiplayer only.  I understand wanting to flesh out one storyline fully instead of halfassing 4 different ones.  Hopefully this game sells like gangbusters and they make an add on with an orky campaign.  I would love a single player warhammer 40k ork campaign.  Oh, and this expansion should include TYRANNIDS.  That is the one warhammer 40k race I would LOVE to see added to this.  The 4 they have are a good choice to start with though.  After Tyrannids my interest in the remaining 40k races goes downhill.  Necromongers? Meh.  Tau Fire Warrior guys?  meh.  Dark Eldar? meh.  Ah, imperials should be added in an expansion as well.  They are cool.  I want my imperial assassin, although he would be a pain in realtime.

Bring back the Squats Biyotch!
stray
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Reply #33 on: May 20, 2004, 10:21:33 PM

Quote
GW staff had an expression for the extreme rules nut, the dreaded "Bearded Nigel", someone you never ever wanted to engage in conversation with on any subject.


Wow, there's a word for these guys? Here I thought there was something special with the assholes I played Warhammer with (and the sole reason why I could never really enjoy tabletop games, as much as they interested me).
HaemishM
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Reply #34 on: May 24, 2004, 09:12:08 AM

Quote from: stray
Quote
GW staff had an expression for the extreme rules nut, the dreaded "Bearded Nigel", someone you never ever wanted to engage in conversation with on any subject.


Wow, there's a word for these guys? Here I thought there was something special with the assholes I played Warhammer with (and the sole reason why I could never really enjoy tabletop games, as much as they interested me).


I think the entire Games Workshop culture, from the rules writers on down to the marketing people, actually attracts more "Bearded Nigels" than they turn away. I've never seen people turn into such huge cockmunchers as I did when playing GW games, including myself. I don't think I've ever played a GW game that didn't turn into a shouting match about some crevice in the rules. You think "exploiters" and "min-maxers" are bad in PVP MMOG's? Try playing GW games (especially some of the older editions) with some of these assholes. I've lost friends over the way these games are played.

It's scary, but I've had less "cutthroat competitive" games at miniatures tournaments for non-GW games than I've had in "friendly" games with GW products.

I really hope that doesn't bode ill for Warhammer Online and Dawn of War, but I can tell that I probably won't play DoW online.

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