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Author Topic: It was bound to happen: American hostage beheaded  (Read 15992 times)
Train Wreck
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on: May 11, 2004, 03:18:35 PM

(My apologies if a thread about this already exists by the time I post this)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An al Qaeda-linked Web site posted video Tuesday of a man who identified himself as an American and then was beheaded.

His captors said the United States refused to exchange him for prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison.

In the video, a man identifies himself as Nicholas Berg, 26, of Pennsylvania and is shown sitting in an orange jumpsuit in front of five armed, hooded men.
...
The Web site also published the text of the statement attributed to al-Zarqawi.

In the statement, the captors refer to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. military personnel, saying the "picture of dishonor and the news of Satanic assault on the people of Islamic men and women" will not be tolerated."


I have to admit this makes me feel almost zero sympathy for the Iraqi prisoners in the infamous phtographs.  I'm still mixed over the issue, but shit like this helps push me over into the "fuck them" category.  Fuck the ignorant, ingrateful Iraqis in general, fuck the media that published them knowing it would put American hostages at grave risk (CNN held back similar reports about Saddam Huisein's Iraq just to keep their Iraq office open), and fuck the dumbass American(s) who took the pictures.

I'm all for justice, but shouldn't something like this have been handled quietly?  Just knowing that the media was sitting on the story would have made sure the military addressed the issue, and from my understanding they've been investigating it since January.
Rasix
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Reply #1 on: May 11, 2004, 03:30:01 PM

Quote from: Train Wreck

I have to admit this makes me feel almost zero sympathy for the Iraqi prisoners in the infamous phtographs.  I'm still mixed over the issue, but shit like this helps push me over into the "fuck them" category.


This doesn't make them (the abused Iraqi prisoners) less human.  You can't just say shennanigans on human rights because some people from the same country are wacko, violent assholes.

-Rasix
WayAbvPar
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Reply #2 on: May 11, 2004, 03:34:24 PM

I linked to it a few hours ago in the Current Events Junkies thread, but it probably deserves its own thread. Sickening. Shit like this just makes me crazy. The irrational eye for an eye part of me wants to remove all US personnel from the region and turn the whole goddamned area into a sheet of molten glass.

This is obviously the reaction that those fucking animals want. I WOULD like to see less dicking around in Iraq and more attention paid to running every last person who ever read an Al Qaeda memo to ground and hanging them by their small intestines.

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cevik
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Reply #3 on: May 11, 2004, 03:34:45 PM

Quote from: Train Wreck

I have to admit this makes me feel almost zero sympathy for the Iraqi prisoners in the infamous phtographs.  I'm still mixed over the issue, but shit like this helps push me over into the "fuck them" category.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/iraq/cst-nws-abuse11.html

Quote
Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested ''by mistake,'' according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday.
...
..military intelligence officers estimated ''between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.


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Reply #4 on: May 11, 2004, 04:23:36 PM

Quote from: Train Wreck
I have to admit this makes me feel almost zero sympathy for the Iraqi prisoners in the infamous phtographs.


Well, remember that if this was the work of al-Qaeda or an affiliated group, it probably wasn't the work of Iraqis but foreign terrorists on Iraqi soil; al-Zarqawi for one isn't an Iraqi. Therefore, this doesn't make me any less sympathetic to the Iraqis who are tortured, only more committed to seeing al-Qaeda destroyed root and branch: that is, by killing their operatives whenever we come across them while placating Arabs who aren't explicitly anti-American. Of course, it would help if the current administration wasn't pursuing a course that does nothing to stamp out al-Qaeda, and is even likely to strengthen it.
 
Quote
I'm all for justice, but shouldn't something like this have been handled quietly?


Probably. To be perfectly honest, I'm uncertain how the media whirlwind actually began: did that whistleblower go to the media, after which a leak produced the infamous photographs, or was the leak what started it all? While Don't Put American Lives In Danger Through Your Coverage is hopefully a lesson that the media will now take to heart after their coverage led to the death of an individual, we still can't forget Don't Do Stupid, Evil Shit That Makes The World Hate Us as a lesson for the military and Don't Put American Lives On The Line Unnecessarily for the government. If either of the latter two had been followed, the first wouldn't have been an issue.

I'm not suggesting that the majority or even a large minority of military personnel engage in what could be termed Stupid, Evil Shit; I am suggesting that the administration sent Americans off to die in Iraq when it was absolutely unnecessary for them to do so. I know we're probably all desensitized to most violence that doesn't immediately affect us, but I always try to remind myself of this: hundreds and hundreds of Americans would still be alive today, perhaps hundreds and thousands more unmaimed, if our government didn't decide it wanted to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people and manufacture a war for esoteric policy reasons.  

I expect disagreement, but I would have negotiated for this guy's release. I don't think refusal to do so will halt kidnappings and killings in Iraq, and I know that the government will eventually start negotiating, as all prior administrations have eventually done when Americans were held hostage. Why let those initial individuals unfortunate enough to get caught in enemy hands end up dead just so that you can puff your chest out and say 'We will not negotiate with terrorists!' just like they do in the movies? That sounds cute on the evening news, but it doesn't make these people any less dead.

We need to disengage from Iraq as quickly as is feasible to leave the country in some sort of pro-Western orientation and get back to the task of hunting down the jihadists and other fanatics who are our real enemy.
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Reply #5 on: May 11, 2004, 05:47:57 PM

Some interesting information about the man who was beheaded.

He had originally intended to return home from Iraq on March 30th. He was arrested by Iraqi police at a checkpoint near Mosul on March 24th and held without being charged. On April 5th, his parents filed a lawsuit stating that he was being illegally detained by the US military in Iraq, and on the next day he was released. They last heard from him on April 9th when he telephoned to say he was looking for a safe way home. Yesterday, the State Department contacted his family to report that his body had been found near a highway overpass in Baghdad.
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Reply #6 on: May 11, 2004, 08:14:57 PM

Quote from: Foix
While Don't Put American Lives In Danger Through Your Coverage is hopefully a lesson that the media will now take to heart after their coverage led to the death of an individual...

Don't report on bad shit the military is doing?  How's that again?
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Reply #7 on: May 11, 2004, 08:37:59 PM

The red cross was reporting that events were occuring LAST YEAR.

The report writtin by the US General was done 3 MONTHS AGO.

The interagators are STILL working in the prison this minute.


Blaming the media does not cut it. If there was no public scandel nothing would have happened. A few sargents get dismissed from the army.

Anyways, the beheading would have occured no matter what, and it was done by the one terriost group IN iraq before the war started...the one group that BushCo KNEW about but didn't attack because that might slow down the genral Iraq invasion. Which incerdently, was in Kurdish controlled Iraq, and out of reach of Sadamm.

And as noted above, the only reason the poor guy was captured was because he ws stuck in a US controlled jail for a month with no charge!

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Reply #8 on: May 11, 2004, 10:25:15 PM

And of course no one mentions the fact that these were Al Qieda (sp) alligned assholes and we all know that AQ and Iraqis dont get along and whatnot. Noooo there could be no connection between AQ and Iraq....Mmmmkay.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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Reply #9 on: May 11, 2004, 11:00:03 PM

Welcome to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend bizarro world".  You might recognize it from the US's other visits.  Back when it was Afghanistan vs. the USSR and Iraq vs. Iran.
Romp
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Reply #10 on: May 11, 2004, 11:07:08 PM

it astounds me that intelligent people would have an anti-Iraqi response to this.  So what, some extremist Iraqis (if they even are Iraqis) behaved like animals.  Big surprise.  Dont project the actions of a few onto a whole people.

Now if another country captured Americans and detained them without trial and then humiliated, raped and tortured them then I could see a rational response might be hatred towards people from that country.  Oh wait...
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Reply #11 on: May 11, 2004, 11:20:56 PM

Quote from: daveNYC
Don't report on bad shit the military is doing?  How's that again?


I have no problem with the media reporting on these things. When the media published stories that the army was investigating abuse allegations at Abu Gharib and elsewhere back in January, it didn't cause any perceptible stir at home or abroad. As much as the recent publication of those infamous photos are a black eye for the Bush administration, which can't help but make me happy, they also inflamed opinion at home and abroad in a way that reporting on the issue without them (i.e. as the media did in January) would not have, and thereby put American lives in danger. I find it extremely likely that if those images weren't on the front page of every paper throughout the world, this hostage might very well still be alive today. And I don't see why honest, factual reportage of the situation couldn't have been done without them.

Quote from: DarkDryad
Noooo there could be no connection between AQ and Iraq....


There are likely al-Qaeda or al-Qaeda-aligned figures in Iraq now, yes. Even the Bush administration doesn't claim that al-Qaeda figures were receiving comfort or aid from Saddam Hussein's regime in pre-war Iraq, however. 'Saddam supports al-Qaeda' was one of the initial rationales put forth for the invasion of Iraq way back when, but it was quickly discarded due to lack of supporting evidence. Saddam had one credible link to terrorism during his years in power: he gave cash payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Romp
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Reply #12 on: May 12, 2004, 01:20:34 AM

Quote
There are likely al-Qaeda or al-Qaeda-aligned figures in Iraq now, yes. Even the Bush administration doesn't claim that al-Qaeda figures were receiving comfort or aid from Saddam Hussein's regime in pre-war Iraq, however. 'Saddam supports al-Qaeda' was one of the initial rationales put forth for the invasion of Iraq way back when, but it was quickly discarded due to lack of supporting evidence. Saddam had one credible link to terrorism during his years in power: he gave cash payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.


discarded by people with a brain but it was still argued by Bush and others in the administration.  Pretty sure it was argued by Bush in his State of the Union address wasnt it?
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Reply #13 on: May 12, 2004, 05:22:59 AM

Yeah I'll belive they werent there pre war when pigs fly. It just wasn't proven.  Kinda like the WMD thing any reasonable person with average Jr high math skills can take the numbers and figure out shit is missing but since we didnt find the stuff OMG he never had it. Sorry the ostrich approach dont work in todays world.
Note: Im not saying either of these were good reasons to go to war. As a matter of fact they are pretty stupid reasons especially when you give the ass 3 months to hide shit. Because Sadam was an asshole and we had yet to end hostilities other than a conditional ceasefire which he failed to meet the conditions of is.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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Reply #14 on: May 12, 2004, 05:33:22 AM

Al Qaeda perceived Sadam to be an enemy, his was one of the few non islamic regimes in the area and they wanted to get rid of him.  Probably only the US and Israel were seen as a big enemies by Al Qaeda than Sadam's Iraq.

To Americans it seems to make sense that they would be allies, because to Americans they are all evil Arabs who hate the US so therefore they must be friends.

What is also distressing is the fact that the US armed forces themselves have been led to believe that they are avenging 9-11 in Iraq and some of those involved in torture have been quoted as saying they held their victims responsible for 9-11.
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Reply #15 on: May 12, 2004, 06:33:04 AM

Iraq was under conditional cease fire. They didn't comply with the ceasefrie for 12 yrs. I'd say that was time enough.  Yeah I can see how they would feel it given that his support of terrorisim and all but I dont see why they were told it was for 9/11 unless they were told its time to clean up the terrorist and thier supporters, which they were, and made the connection that way.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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Reply #16 on: May 12, 2004, 06:35:11 AM

Quote from: Foix
And I don't see why honest, factual reportage of the situation couldn't have been done without them.

Because the story would have read "US soldier says he has photos that prove prisoners are being abused but we won't show them to you."

The photos are the proof of the story, if the news didn't show them, the same people who are saying "The abuse wasn't that bad/They deserved it."  Would have immediately said "If you really have photos, why don't you show them?"

H1: Saddam has WMDs.
H0: Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

So, how significant is it that we have been running the country for a year and haven't found any yet?  What about after two, three or five years?
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Reply #17 on: May 12, 2004, 07:15:08 AM

I suspect all the WMDs, if there were any, are in Syria by now.

The torture was bad. These guys weren't terrorists. They were soldiers for a foreign army at worst, people in the wrong place at the wrong time at best.

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Reply #18 on: May 12, 2004, 07:43:53 AM

My main problem with this, other than the incident itself, is that I know our media will forget about this in a couple of days.  They will then refocus on important things like the Kobe Bryant rape case and demonstrating just how evil ALL of our troops are just because of a few twisted fucktards.
Train Wreck
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Reply #19 on: May 12, 2004, 11:38:09 AM

Quote from: Romp
it astounds me that intelligent people would have an anti-Iraqi response to this.  So what, some extremist Iraqis (if they even are Iraqis) behaved like animals.  Big surprise.  Dont project the actions of a few onto a whole people.

Now if another country captured Americans and detained them without trial and then humiliated, raped and tortured them then I could see a rational response might be hatred towards people from that country.  Oh wait...


No, the prisoners didn't deserve it (except the ones that had blood on their hands, but that's another ballgame).  

My disgust with the Iraqi people is what I percieve, correctly or falsely, to be the Arabic culture.  Their silence over this issue is disgusting.  Where is the outrage?  The Iraqi people are not guilty of this crime -- they are guilty about not caring.  I want to be wrong. I want to be shown proof to the contrary.  But where is it?

This is the culture that murders their daughters because they were raped and needed to "save the family honor."  Sure, only whackos would behave that way, but their law allows them to do it.  At what point do people become responsible for what is socially permissable in their culture?  At what point can we admit to ourselves that we ARE better without feeling guilty about it?
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Reply #20 on: May 12, 2004, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Train Wreck

At what point can we admit to ourselves that we ARE better without feeling guilty about it?


Just after we stop sodomizing people with flashlights.

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Reply #21 on: May 12, 2004, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: Train Wreck
The Iraqi people are not guilty of this crime -- they are guilty about not caring.  I want to be wrong. I want to be shown proof to the contrary.  But where is it?


First of all, how exactly do we know how any Iraqis think about this murder? I haven't seen any commentary about the reaction of the Iraqi-on-the-street to it. (The Iraqi Governing Council has strongly condemned it as the 'brutal' act of 'psychopaths' who will be hunted down.) Second, in Iraq as in any other country in the world (including ours), there is no such thing as total consensus on a matter; saying 'Iraqis think this' or 'Iraqis think that' does nothing other than foster inaccurate stereotypes. Thirdly, why do you expect the Iraqis to care? A crime was committed against one non-Iraqi by a group likely composed of other non-Iraqis. The Iraqi people are required to have strong feelings about a single act of murder between foreigners that happens to take place within the borders of the country, while much of said country is still a warzone? If I were to draw any generalization at all, it would be that the Iraqis seem to be like every other nation in the world in that attacks on their countrymen outrage them, but attacks on others not so much.

Quote
This is the culture that murders their daughters because they were raped and needed to "save the family honor."


This Nat Geo gives a fairly gruesome account of honor killings in that Muslim (not Arab -- there being non-Muslim Arabs, of course) world. It also notes, however, that the number of women who die worldwide in honor killings each year pales in comparison to those who are killed in Hindu Indian culture by their husband's families because their dowry was considered too small. It also draws a comparison between the judicial treatment of honor killings and 'crimes of passion' in Latin America, which are also rarely prosecuted.

Also note that the article speculates that there are 'hundreds to thousands' of honor killings throughout the world each year in both Muslim and non-Muslim cultures. Unless only hundreds of rapes take place in the entire Muslim world, then obviously this isn't a cultural standard, but an aberration. There are millions of Muslims in the United States, after all, and the UN didn't include the United States among nations where honor killings have taken place--though a number of nations with minimal to nonexistent Muslim populations (such as Sweden and Brazil) were included.

I'm not a cultural relativist, and therefore consider honor killings as barbaric as any of the practices mentioned above; but these sorts of things happen in all cultures that place some value (usually honor, specifically family|tribal|clan honor) higher than human life. Western culture has progressed beyond that, but these very same scenes took place in Europe during the Middle Ages. Europe was a Christian land at the time, and the Christian faith didn't condone such killings--though the Mosaic law does--any more than does the Koran; but they nevertheless took place. Does that mean medieval European culture was worthless because barbaric acts were an accepted part of society?

My point is simply that we shouldn't condemn entire cultures because certain practices or certain individuals within them are objectionable. That allows us to draw a crude representation of that culture that allows us to think of them as Evil or the Enemy, and therefore not quite human. Jews throughout most of their history, Muslims and Hindus alike in modern India, Christians and Muslims in premodern Europe, the indigenous cultures of the Americas when the Europeans arrived, the Africans who were taken as slaves to the New World and any number of other unfortunates in world history: all were thought of as coming from cultures that were inferior, if indeed they were deemed to have any culture at all, and that fostered barbarities against them that were at least as great as any that they themselves had supposedly committed. (In regard to our own culture, witness seemingly serious calls in the wake of Fallujah and the Berg killing by Americans to destroy entire Iraqi cities, slaughter civilians en masse for the sake of vengeance, and so on. Of course, this is not representative of mainstream American opinion--I hope.)
Train Wreck
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Reply #22 on: May 12, 2004, 02:18:15 PM

Quote from: cevik
Quote from: Train Wreck

At what point can we admit to ourselves that we ARE better without feeling guilty about it?


Just after we stop sodomizing people with flashlights.



We're to not condemn an entire culture over the actions of a few, and yet, we do that very thing to ourselves over the deeds of a couple dozen soldiers out of 200,000.  Your glib statement would have a point if we ignored what the American soldiers did, but it sounds surreal in the light of the reality of a massive investigation and cultural introspection.

Quote from: Foix
First of all, how exactly do we know how any Iraqis think about this murder? I haven't seen any commentary about the reaction of the Iraqi-on-the-street to it. (The Iraqi Governing Council has strongly condemned it as the 'brutal' act of 'psychopaths' who will be hunted down.)


That's a good start.  As far as not knowing what the Iraqi-on-the-street feels about it, it's something that frusterates me about our own media coverage.  I'm leaning towards the impression that the "Arab Street" are indifferent precisely from the lack of media coverage.  Since they like to be the protectors of tolerence, I would expect them to find everything possible to improve our the perception of the Iraqi people -- to be searching high and low for common Iraqi citizens to condemn it, even anonymously.  They really should have been doing that yesterday when shock and anger was at it's highest, but instead what two or three minutes of coverage they gave it was presented as another indication that we are "losing" in Iraq.  But better late then never, so I'll keep my eyes open.


Quote
Second, in Iraq as in any other country in the world (including ours), there is no such thing as total consensus on a matter; saying 'Iraqis think this' or 'Iraqis think that' does nothing other than foster inaccurate stereotypes.


There is usually a predominate attitude or viewpoint.  There are Americans that said whatever we are doing to those Iraqi prisoners, we should give them even more of it.  But that viewpoint doesn't correspond with the prevalent American attitude.

I expect the Iraqis to care because it was murder.  I don't expect them to be remotely affected by it -- just to be able to call it a murder would be civil.

In regards to honor killings, it is my belief that such leniency is an indication of cultural barbarism, and that a culture that tolerates such an abberation can not be regarded as anything better than barbaric.  That doesn't mean that every muslim that happens to live in that region of the world is a barbarian, it means that the culture they belong to is barbaric.  And yes, I cite that as an indication that our culture is more socially advanced than theirs, flashlights or not (in reference to another poster).
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Reply #23 on: May 12, 2004, 02:22:30 PM

Quote from: Train Wreck
Quote from: cevik
Quote from: Train Wreck

At what point can we admit to ourselves that we ARE better without feeling guilty about it?


Just after we stop sodomizing people with flashlights.



We're to not condemn an entire culture over the actions of a few, and yet, we do that very thing to ourselves over the deeds of a couple dozen soldiers out of 200,000.  Your glib statement would have a point if we ignored what the American soldiers did, but it sounds surreal in the light of the reality of a massive investigation and cultural introspection.


No, I was pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.  At one time you want to condemn the Arab culture based on the actions of 4 guys on a video by saying that "we ARE better", but in the same breath you want to conviently forget about the actions of a few of our soldiers.  You're being an immature hypocrit, wanting to condemn an entire culture because of the actions of a few all the while forgetting that our culture did nearly the exact same thing just weeks before.  Neither side is better than the other.

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Reply #24 on: May 12, 2004, 06:36:16 PM

Quote from: DarkDryad
Yeah I'll belive they werent there pre war when pigs fly. It just wasn't proven.  Kinda like the WMD thing any reasonable person with average Jr high math skills can take the numbers and figure out shit is missing but since we didnt find the stuff OMG he never had it. Sorry the ostrich approach dont work in todays world.


This almost has to be ripped from Rush Limbaugh, the logic so twisted, the reasoning so stunted, and the use of terms that quite simply do not apply. Because there is a discrepancy in the numbers, it does not automatically mean that there has to be WMD floating around somewhere. There is another explanation one that actually has evidence backing it. Iraqi scientists quite simply overstated Saddams WMD capacity. Turns out Saddam is not someone you give bad news to. As far as calling those who doubt the WMD claims ostriches with their heads in the sand, I find that hard to do when the weight of the evidence rests on their side.  No you would be a much better fit for the ostrich. As you refute all the evidence that is contrary to what you want to believe and cling desperately to the few shreds of facts that tend to support your belief while denying that those facts could mean something other than what you think.
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Reply #25 on: May 13, 2004, 12:07:31 AM

One simple question Sarn. Just one. You ever been there? You ever seen what this shit does? I have . Trust me I will err on the side of saftey thank you. Rush has nothing to do with it. I rarely listen to him anywho. If I'm told he has x amount of stuff and he destroued 3/4s of it as far as I know he has 1/4 of it left and thats just not something I see as prudent to leave in the hands of an international asshole.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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Reply #26 on: May 13, 2004, 03:51:21 AM

Quote from: DarkDryad
One simple question Sarn. Just one. You ever been there? You ever seen what this shit does? I have .


Well, if you follow that line of thought, why would you vote for Bush and everyone else who dodges being "there", and not Kerry, who DID?

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Reply #27 on: May 13, 2004, 08:05:45 AM

Quote from: DarkDryad
One simple question Sarn. Just one. You ever been there? You ever seen what this shit does? I have.

Are you talking about banned WMDs?  That would mean you've seen either chemical, bacterial, or nuclear weapons in action.  Otherwise you're just talking about the banned conventional weapons, and while they'll ruin a lot of people's days, they're still killing on the retail, not wholesale level.
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Reply #28 on: May 13, 2004, 09:53:18 PM

Sorry for the confusion. The guys over at morlocks know a bit about my background. I have attended the US Army NBC (Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological) School while I was in. It was my job to ensure my units NBC preparedness. Part of the school is to see what some of the agents used around the world can do.
Vx is a particularly nasty batch of goo that I wouldnt wish on Hitler much less anyone else Mustard Gas burns you without creating heat so you really dont know whats going on untill you have 2nd or 3rd drgree burns all over your body.
Ricin is some very nasty stuff made from dried plant husks and basicly causes you to convulse yourself to death.
Yes I have seen over 30 Bio/Chem Weapons used (in a controlled environment) and one cant really appreciate how totaly horrible these things are untill you have seen it. I could tell you about Vx melting your skin but untill you see a lab rat melting it really doesn't strike home.
I guess thats the main reason why when it comes to Chem/Bio weapons Im a tad over zealous about thier utter destruction. Given my choice Nuclear would be the prefered method of death in this situation.

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
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Reply #29 on: May 15, 2004, 04:45:53 PM

As far as the WMD reasoning on going to war, was this really erroring on the side of safty?  Assuming that there are WMD. Was going from Saddam with WMD to ____ with WMD a good idea? At least with Saddam deterance ensured he did not use them directly against us.
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Reply #30 on: May 15, 2004, 05:38:01 PM

Has anyone actually seen the video?  I know the website that originally had it up took it down, but I'm sure you can still find it on the file sharing services...

I can't decide if I want to see it.  I have no problem with those who choose to do so, and I think there is information to be gained by watching it.  But on the other hand, I don't have a strong desire to see such a brutal act, and I respect the family's wishes that I don't.  Not to mention the fact that watching it is exactly what the terrorists want people to do...

Bruce
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Reply #31 on: May 15, 2004, 08:23:01 PM

Quote from: SirBruce
Not to mention the fact that watching it is exactly what the terrorists want people to do...


It's a rough video, there's no doubt about it.  The actual video itself isn't as bad as it could have been due to horrendous pixelation (I guess using a proper codec isn't up their in your average jihadi's skillset), it's the audio that's a bitch.  Trust me, the sound that poor guy makes isn't something you'll forget anytime soon.

As far as them wanting us to see the video, well, they want their little snuff film to scare people, but I just don't see fear being the primary reaction coming out of most Americans.  These people are flat-out pussies.  They use civilians as shields and hide in mosques.  They're also pretty much incompetent as soldiers.  They can set up boobie traps really well and generally act like thugs, but as far as discipline and actually being able to move and shoot competently, they suck.

I personally hope a lot of people watch this movie.  It just moves us as a nation that much closer to the point where we collectively say, "enough is enough" and start to behave ruthlessly.  Islam is incapable of reform, and unfortunately we're approaching the stage where we'll have to excise this cancer from the global body.
Big Gulp
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Reply #32 on: May 15, 2004, 08:33:37 PM

Quote from: DarkDryad
If I'm told he has x amount of stuff and he destroued 3/4s of it as far as I know he has 1/4 of it left and thats just not something I see as prudent to leave in the hands of an international asshole.


One thing a hell of a lot of people don't seem to realize is that there's never been any doubt that Iraq did have chemical and bio weapons.  The question was whether or not they'd all been destroyed, and sorry, I still don't believe that for one goddamned second.

The weapons are out there.  Unlike Saddam, they don't have to move around from time to time and can just stay buried forever.  Eventually they'll be uncovered, but how long that'll take I have no idea.  I don't believe that the regime was in any big hurry to destroy their stockpiles, though.

That said, I thing WMD was probably our weakest argument for going to war.  Hell, we could have gone to war just on the numerous times the ceasefire was broken in the intervening 12 years.
Sarno
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Reply #33 on: May 15, 2004, 08:47:31 PM

There are around 1 billion muslims we'll have to make the Nazis look like inefficient bleeding heart pussies to pull that off Big Gulp. The only thing about the brutality in this war that makes it any different from any other war is the fact that there are more pictures of it in this one.
Big Gulp
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Reply #34 on: May 15, 2004, 09:03:51 PM

Quote from: Sarno
There are around 1 billion muslims we'll have to make the Nazis look like inefficient bleeding heart pussies to pull that off Big Gulp.


And we will.  Eventually one of these groups will set off one form of NBC weapon or another in an American city.  Dr. Khan's nuclear bonanza is pretty much proof of that.  How far along is Iran in it's weapons program?  It'll kill a shitload of people and at that point we will go nuclear.  We'll also round up every muslim we can get our hands on in this country, and what they'll go through will make what the Nissei went through in WWII look like a pleasant little interlude.

The only thing that'll stop this is if the Islamic world finally wakes up to the fact that these nutjobs are more dangerous to them than they'll ever be to us.  They can hurt us, but we can utterly destroy them.  I don't believe that the Islamic world really has it in them to reign in all of this hatred.  Either because of fear, or more often because they sympathize with these terrorists they want to turn a blind eye to the whole deal.

I firmly believe that a really nasty day of reckoning is coming up.  I'd love to be proven wrong, but overall I'm very pessimistic about it.
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