Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Madman]

This is a dangerous path. Do you think that losing players see the crap they play any differently? Tournament poker is all about stack conservation. The vast majority of the time playing J8o for a raise will result in you losing chips (and thus having a smaller stack). The few times it does it you can make some money with it, but the same could be said for 52 or 63. Calling a raise and begging for the perfect flop is a losing strategy long term. What happens if the flop comes J high? You have top pair with a terrible kicker. How can you play that with any confidence? Even J9 and JT have you beat.

See my post above (edit - on the last page), I doubt I would have played it at all if anything but that flop came down or possibly two pair. If the board had come down J high then I would have checked and probably folded if anyone had bet. I have also said I don't normally play crap like J8o (and even J8s), but just decided on to take a chance on it this time. If the flop doesn't come down for me, I lose 60 chips and move on to the next hand. I don't see that call any different that say raising preflop with something like KQs (or calling a smaller preflop raise with a middle pair), and then having to fold when the flop comes down rags in the opposite suit or all overcards. Sure those two hands have much better odds but in the end you still lose your preflop bet. I don't sit there and call every crap hand I get, in fact I tend to fold stuff like suited connecters like T9s, 98s even when I could just limp in. For this month, I see the flop less than 30% of the time when I am not in the blind, so I think I am doing alright.

[UD_Delt]

I don't see that call any different that say raising preflop with something like KQs (or calling a smaller preflop raise with a middle pair), and then having to fold when the flop comes down rags in the opposite suit or all overcards.

The difference is in how dominated the hand is. If you pair the J's you have an 8 kicker which is about worthless. If you pair either card of KQ you have a kicker which is second best. Also a connector plays much better than a 2-gapper for obvious reasons. W/ a 2 gapper you are very rarely even making the best straight when you do hit. Otherwise you are correct in that any two cards can win. Playing J8o is the same as playing 74o. You are hoping to connect with a miracle flop, either a straight and pray it's best, trips, or two pair. Hell any two cards can make a Full House too.


FYI... I've also started a blog to use as a poker journal. If anyone is exceptionally bored and needs something to read:

http://uddelt.blogspot.com/

[Margalis]

I'd rather call a raise with 23 than J8. That way if the flop is all rags I could likely have the best hand, and nobody would put me on it. If the flop comes down with 2 3's nobody is going suspect I have a 3.

There is also less chance I am going to have a dominated hand. If I play J8 is a raised pot if I flop a Jack I could easily be behind AJ, JJ, AA, KK, QQ, AJ or any better kicker with the Jack. Even if I flop 2 J's I could still be outkicked.

The player "Premier" on Stars uses this kind of strategy to good effect. For NL it makes some sense. (Makes no sense in limit) You won't win that often with a hand like 23, but when you do win you can win a lot because people will think "there is no way he has 23." In a raised pot I don't want to be playing dominated hands like J8, JT, etc.

[Rasix]

Heh, decided to buy in for a little more and play the 10 dollars tables. A much more enjoyable experience IMO, although I'm basing this on not may played at the moment. So far there are less assholes and some people are actually making intelligent plays.  However, riverstars is alive and well at this level also.

I played a tournament last night and for the first part of it I was just on fire.  I was hitting the nuts and getting good value out of it constantly. I was smelling out traps and making the tought laydowns when I had to.  I guess we all seem to play like gods when we're catching cards.  Usually I can't get good value out of these types of hands, but I've learned some methods for getting people to pot commit or just call along thinking you're bluffing.

Here are the stats for the tournament:

126 hands played and saw flop:
 - 21 times out of 37 while in small blind      (56%)
 - 11 times out of 37 while in big blind      (29%)
 - 19 times out of 52 in other positions      (36%)
 - a total of 51 times out of 126      (40%)

 Pots won at showdown - 12 out of 15      (80%)
 Pots won without showdown - 29

Flops seen is a tad high (ok, pretty damn high for my standards as of late), but I was really hitting a lot of cards and heads up went on for a bit. I think at one point I had two face cards about 7 times in a row. I actually wasn't hitting a lot of flops, but gathering a decent sized stack I was able to push the smaller stacks away towards the end.  Of the 3 hands I lost, one was a collossal suckout; the guy caught 2 runners for a flush. The other two I misplayed, the final hand being making a semi bluff(had top pair) all in and getting caught by AA.  I finished second, but the other guy was a much better heads-up player than and had about 3k chips on me heading in.  I still stink heads up, the only people I beat heads up I've noticed are pretty bad ABC poker players.

Ohh, and I've started playing the low buy in daily large tournaments when I can (the $1 + 0 and so on) to get a feel for large tournment play.  I'm getting a bit better each time, improving my end position by a couple hundred positions (700 to 450ish to under 200). I've just been having trouble building stacks and eventually get chip whipped out of the tournament.   I've noticed I'm not at my best when it's a 9 man table, I'm more comfortable when it's down to about 5-6.

I'm open for any ideas on how to improve my 9 man table play or large tourney play.

PS. I'm just getting sick of people that cry when they get beat on the river or go out on a bad break.  Really, it's STILL gambling and luck does play a roll.   I want to reach out through the computer, slap them, and yell really loudly in their face "QUIT BEING SUCH A PUSSY.  IT'S POKER. MOVE ON!".

[Pig Destroyer]

Had a guy in a big multi table tournament that lost his damn mind because he went out on the first hand.

Basically went like this, guy raises to about 250 preflop, other guy raises to 400, and first raiser pushes all in and the other guy calls.

Initial raiser has QQ and the Caller has AKs.

Flop comes Axx and that's all she wrote.

Or so you think.

The guy who lost with QQ procedes to verbally berate the guy who beat him about how AK isn't the nuts, and that he is a terrible player etc etc.

I'm used to that sort of thing, however this guy stuck around for over two hours verbally abusing this other guy everytime he either won or lost a hand.  He'd say things like "AWESOME HAND" when another person at the table would beat the guy.  It was retardation at it's finest, and when I told him to shut the hell up he accused me of collusion with the guy who beat him in the first hand.

Some people just should not play Poker.

[WayAbvPar]

I love it when I knock people like that out.

"What the hell are you doing playing shit like that???"

"Stacking your chips, what does it look like I am doing?"

That usually elicits a torrent of profanity from the jackass and a hearty chuckle from the rest of the players.

[El Gallo]

Anyone else going to be in Vegas around World Series time?  I am not playing, but may go hang out with a buddy who is.  Hopefully, I can do well in the ring games on the strip while the good players are playing/watching at the 'shoe =)

[WayAbvPar]

Hard to say- either there will be a ton of good players in town, or a ton of tourists. I would say both, and it will take some looking to find the really soft games.

[Madman]

Wow...today was odd to say the least. I lost the first 5 $5 SnG's I played today. It was a combination of a cold deck and some bad plays on my part. I haven't been doing as well I as I should be the past day or so and I have been hovering right around my original buy in.

I started today just above my $100 buy in and after losing those 5 $5 SnG's, I decided to say screw it and played a $10 SnG. I ended up going out on the bubble in that one and was down about $40 bucks for the day. However, in the sense of a true optimistic gambler I said, "I can make it back! All I have to do is win a $10 SnG and I will be back over my original buy in!". So of course I started another one and although I didn't get first, I did manage to get 3rd. That just whet my appetite and I said "Well, that went well, I can play one more now!" So I join another one and ended up playing pretty well, although I think I got called a fish because I folded a couple of times to reraises when there was a flush on the board. Of course I wasn't holding anything of that suit, although once I did have top pair, but a crappy kicker. The justice came when the guy who called me a fish went out on the bubble.

I had gone up several hundred chips early and ended up losing some of it when I couldn't get a flop to hit me. By the 32nd hand, it was into the 4 way and I was had the small stack at just under the original 1500 chips. I was getting bled and so I decided to either go out or get lucky on this hand:

Code:

*********** # 36 **************
PokerStars Game #424174985: Tournament #1566101, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/05/07 - 17:13:00 (ET)
Table '1566101 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (2585 in chips) 
Seat 4: nutflushdraw (6479 in chips) 
Seat 5: Zelik (3091 in chips) 
Seat 6: TheMadMadman (1345 in chips) 
nutflushdraw: posts small blind 50
Zelik: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [9d Qd]
TheMadMadman: raises 200 to 300
VoodooChild1: folds 
nutflushdraw: raises 1800 to 2100
Zelik: folds 
TheMadMadman: calls 1045 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [4s 7s 7h]
*** TURN *** [4s 7s 7h] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [4s 7s 7h Qh] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nutflushdraw: shows [6d 6h] (a full house, Sevens full of Sixes)
TheMadMadman: shows [9d Qd] (a full house, Sevens full of Queens)
TheMadMadman collected 2790 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2790 | Rake 0 
Board [4s 7s 7h Qh 7c]
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: nutflushdraw (small blind) showed [6d 6h] and lost with a full house, Sevens full of Sixes
Seat 5: Zelik (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: TheMadMadman showed [9d Qd] and won (2790) with a full house, Sevens full of Queens

As you can tell, I got lucky. I felt a little more comfortable after I had some extra chips behind me. Zelik (the guy who called me a fish) went out on the 38th hand when he gambled on a pair of J's with a king kicker. Too bad nutflushdraw had J's and 9's when he tried it. It didn't help when another J hit on the turn. So I was in the money again, but I was still short stacked compared to nutflushdraw. I went through a rough batch of cards and nutflush and voodoo tried to bleed me off by stealing my blinds. I got lucky again on this hand:

Code:

*********** # 58 **************
PokerStars Game #424185815: Tournament #1566101, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/05/07 - 17:21:12 (ET)
Table '1566101 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (3485 in chips) 
Seat 4: nutflushdraw (8275 in chips) 
Seat 6: TheMadMadman (1740 in chips) 
nutflushdraw: posts small blind 50
TheMadMadman: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [8s 4d]
VoodooChild1: folds 
nutflushdraw: calls 50
TheMadMadman: checks 
*** FLOP *** [8h 3h 5h]
nutflushdraw: bets 700
TheMadMadman: raises 700 to 1400
nutflushdraw: raises 700 to 2100
TheMadMadman: calls 240 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [8h 3h 5h] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [8h 3h 5h 4c] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nutflushdraw: shows [8c Kd] (a pair of Eights)
TheMadMadman: shows [8s 4d] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
TheMadMadman collected 3480 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3480 | Rake 0 
Board [8h 3h 5h 4c Qh]
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: nutflushdraw (small blind) showed [8c Kd] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 6: TheMadMadman (big blind) showed [8s 4d] and won (3480) with two pair, Eights and Fours

I felt kind of bad after getting lucky like that, but I also felt alot more comfortable with about 3500 in chips. I felt like I could be a little more aggressive then and pulled a set on the river 10 hands later. That gave me just over 5k in chips and I was finally the chip leader. From there, I went down a little, then made it back up, went down a little, made it back up and just sort of hovered between 3.5-5k chips for the most part. The around the 93rd hand, I started to hit some flops and they kept calling me.  By the 97th hand I was up over 8k in chips and the two left were starting to respect my bets a little more. I got a couple of folds on weak middle pairs or pure bluffs, in fact I bluffed one of them out of the blinds on the river with 32o. I really wanted to show him those cards, but I resisted. On the 114th hand I was over 10k in chips and then got sucked out of about 2k in chips by betting into Voodoo who had a set of T's on the flop while I was betting on two pair - 9's and 10's. On the 115th hand nutflush went out when his ATo didn't catch anything on the board and my A3s hit a 3 on the flop. Two hands later this went down:

Code:

*********** # 117 **************
PokerStars Game #424219352: Tournament #1566101, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2004/05/07 - 17:46:25 (ET)
Table '1566101 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (5365 in chips) 
Seat 6: TheMadMadman (8135 in chips) 
VoodooChild1: posts the ante 25
TheMadMadman: posts the ante 25
VoodooChild1: posts small blind 100
TheMadMadman: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [7h 3h]
VoodooChild1: calls 100
TheMadMadman: checks 
*** FLOP *** [6h Ah 4s]
TheMadMadman: checks 
VoodooChild1: checks 
*** TURN *** [6h Ah 4s] [4h]
TheMadMadman: bets 200
VoodooChild1: calls 200
*** RIVER *** [6h Ah 4s 4h] [5h]
TheMadMadman: bets 7710 and is all-in
VoodooChild1: calls 4940 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TheMadMadman: shows [7h 3h] (a straight flush, Three to Seven)
VoodooChild1: shows [Qh 9h] (a flush, Ace high)
TheMadMadman collected 10730 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10730 | Rake 0 
Board [6h Ah 4s 4h 5h]
Seat 1: VoodooChild1 (button) (small blind) showed [Qh 9h] and lost with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: TheMadMadman (big blind) showed [7h 3h] and won (10730) with a straight flush, Three to Seven

I went all in praying he also had the flush, which I sort of had him on when he stayed with 3 hearts on the board even though it was a small bet. I actually had to look twice at the my hand to make sure I had the straight flush. It is only the second time I have had a straight flush. With this win, I  actually ended the day up slightly, which I really needed.

I am tempted to just play the $10 SnG's because I seem to do much better there. I am not sure if it is because I concentrate more with an extra $5 on the line or if it is just the fact that the people on those tables tend to play a little more 'normally'. I don't know why but I don't really deal with maniacs very well. I also think I need to work on my hand readings a bit more. I guess I am a weak tight player, I know there are some places where I should raise or reraise, but I don't as well as places where I should call a bet or raise and don't. I guess that is something that will come with more experience.

[WayAbvPar]

If your bankroll can handle it, the $10 SnGs aren't much different from the $5 (at least on Stars).

*** FLOP *** [8h 3h 5h]
nutflushdraw: bets 700
TheMadMadman: raises 700 to 1400
nutflushdraw: raises 700 to 2100
TheMadMadman: calls 240 and is all-in

This is just a terrible play that got paid off on the river. Don't let the results fool you. Not only are you almost assuredly outkicked if he is playing top pair, but both a straight and a flush are possible.

If you are going to play this hand, don't just min raise him- shove the stack in and be done with it. You are going to end up all in anyway, but if you are the aggressor, you might get him to lay down a hand that has you beat (which in this case, is almost anything!).

[Madman]

Oh yeah, I knew it was a bad play when I made it. I was trying to buy the pot, betting that he didn't have an 8 or that he would think I hit the flush. I was surprised when he turned over K8 in the pocket as I kind of thought he was trying to buy the pot. I know I got real lucky on that hand on the turn. At the time I felt I was backed into a corner and I had to try to make a move. I was in the money, so I wouldn't have really been upset if it hadn't paid off, but I am glad it did.

One of the things that these hand histories don't show is the time taken before bets. On that particular hand, I just jumped right on the raise button hoping that a quick raise would drive him out. He did hesitate for a while before he tried to shove me out. Normally I wouldn't play that hand, even in a loose 3 way.

[WayAbvPar]

Just a heads up for everyone- the World Series of Poker main event started over the weekend. Some big names that have bit the dust thus far-

Danny Negreanu
Chris Moneymaker
Antonio Esfandiari
TJ Cloutier
Sammy Farha
Men Nguyen
John Bonetti
Phil Ivey
Scotty Nguyen (unconfirmed)

Should be interesting. 2400 starters (with 200 alternates), first prize is $5,000,000+. Wow.

[Anger]

So, no-limit Hold 'Em, in a live game setting, may be my new favorite game of all time.  I've played it twice now, twice in about for day's time.  Saturday I played for several hours in a multi-table tournament, and tonight (Monday) I played for a few hours at a short table (5 guys, including myself).

I was seriously terrified about playing no-limit before these few days, but now I am absolutely all for it.  All for it.  Don't get me wrong, I'm no superhero at the table, but the game is completely different from playing limit, especially limit online.  I remember winning a pot and having my hands shake for a good few minutes afterwards.

Saturday I played in a multi-table dealio, it was 18 people.  We started with three tables of 6, when each table got down to 3 players we had something to eat and then put the last nine at a single table to shoot it out.

I remember the first hand I got was QQ, and I won, not a huge pot, but it was ok.  Time went by and I won a few more, but had to fold on good hands where I knew I was beat, so my stack was dwindling.  I got QQ again.  Now, these were the best cards I'd seen all night, as I was getting garbage.  I swear to you I saw 8c4d five seperate times within an hour or two, and they kept coming like that.  So I bet my QQ pretty strongly, and won.  About half an hour later the chip leader at my table has a sizeable lead, but I'm doing ok...not great, but ok.  I get QQ AGAIN, and I'm thinking "Fuckit, I feel I've gotten my money's worth already, and this is just too crazy NOT to bet on."  So I go all-in and get two, TWO callers pre-flop, and the Queens hold up against 57s and some other garbage (half the table was playing trash consistently).

So I make it to the final table, I want to make a point that I had seen a single straight, and no flushes, from anyone, at the previous table.  The strippers are about to show up (don't ask), and everyone's getting antsy (well, almost everyone).  Dude goes all in pre-flop, and he hasn't proven to be that strong a player, everyone folds and I've got A6s, I think "Fuck it." and call, as I have YET to see a friggin' flush.  He's got KQo, and we see the flop. 78J, with no flush anywhere to be seen for anyone, turn comes A, and River is garbage.  Two other guys go out, one by me I think, there are five of us left and they all want to split, but I've got a mountain of chips.  I offer that anyone can leave with their buy-in if they want, everyone thinks this is fair and two people leave, the three of us left then decide to split.  I probably could have beaten them both, one of them for sure, but was happy to be out ahead.

Tonight with the table of five I had some serious high's and low's.  I limped to the River one hand with pocket 7's, and the River card was 7.  The board was something like ?QJ?7 rainbow.  All I remember is no straights or flushes possible, and dude goes All-In.  At this point I'm freaking out, because I'm positive I have the best of it, but he just went all-in.  I call, mainly because A) I'm almost postiive I have him beat, and B) This is my first time playing with these guys, if I lose, there's a better chance they call me to play again.  He's got nothing, and I basically double up.  He gets me back about half an hour later with a straight flush against my AAJJ.  He called all-in, and I looked at him, and there was that goddamn feeling, that You're-Beat bullshit that I listen to less than I should, and I call him.  His body-position is more upright, and he's more active tan when he tried buying the pot from me, and I call him anyway.  Live and learn I guess.

He takes all my cash, and I sit there a bit talking to these guys...there are only three of us left.  I buy $10 more in chips (original buy-in was $20), and go agressive, in the half hour we played with just three of us, I end up making most of my cash back.  I think I ended up $3.50 down for the night, but took home $25 since they had no small bills.  Confident that I'll be invited back, I wouldn't care if I lost all $30.  So, we'll see how it goes.

Does anyone use Turbo Texas Hold 'Em from Wilson Software, been thinking of buying it, but can't get past the hefty pricetag.

[WayAbvPar]

I have used Turbo Texas Hold 'Em in the past. It is pretty amazing for software, but real experience is a better teacher. I would suggest spending the money on a couple of poker books and some micro limit stuff online if you are in the mood to learn. If you want to tinker, run simulations, etc, then TTH is great for that sort of thing.

As for NL games- I RARELY play any other kind of tournament. Cash games, however, are a different story. In a tournament, my finanacial liability is limited to the buy in. In a ring game, I can lose my whole roll in a NL game if I catch a hideous beat. I just can't handle the variance in NL cash play- I prefer to grind out 3-4 BB/100 hands at the 2/4 or 3/6 tables. I win 4 sessions out of 5, so my bankroll keeps growing, and I can eventually work my way up to some real limits.

Live games are quite different though- I would feel much more comfortable in a live NL game than online. With poker's wild popularity, there are tons of godawful players trying it out for the first time. I am pretty sure I am a hell of a lot better than most of them, so my EV is definitely positive in any game format against all the n00bs.

[WayAbvPar]

Goddamn it, my post got eaten. Let me try to recreate it, since I know you all care.

This is how my night went- cold, dead cards, interspersed with busted draws and a few tough beats (AQ, flop is AQx, turn K, river J, opponent has KK...that kind of thing). My original buy in for the table was $80, and I was down to $5.50 when this hand happened-

> PokerStars Game #454559068:  Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2004/05/27 -
> 01:03:35
(ET)
> Table 'Denebola' Seat #2 is the button
> Seat 1: crazy razer ($103 in chips)
> Seat 2: letitride10 ($76 in chips)
> Seat 3: gmoney04 ($116.50 in chips)
> Seat 4: Chisness ($119 in chips)
> Seat 5: nfinity711 ($129.50 in chips)
> Seat 6: bobcat ($17 in chips)
> Seat 7: wayabvpar ($5.50 in chips)
> Seat 8: wheresmykeys ($76 in chips)
> Seat 9: sluttyh ($267.50 in chips)
> Seat 10: Unbearable ($93.50 in chips)
> gmoney04: posts small blind $1
> Chisness: posts big blind $2
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to wayabvpar [Jc Ac]
> nfinity711: folds
> bobcat: folds
> wayabvpar: raises $2 to $4
> wheresmykeys: folds
> sluttyh: folds
> Unbearable: folds
> crazy razer: folds
> letitride10: raises $2 to $6
> gmoney04: folds
> Chisness: folds
> wayabvpar: calls $1.50 and is all-in
> *** FLOP *** [Kc 2c Qc]
> *** TURN *** [Kc 2c Qc] [Tc]
> *** RIVER *** [Kc 2c Qc Tc] [Ad]
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> wayabvpar: shows [Jc Ac] (a Royal Flush)
> letitride10: mucks hand
> wheresmykeys said, "nh"
> wayabvpar collected $14 from  pot
> Chisness said, "wow"
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot $14 | Rake $0
> Board [Kc 2c Qc Tc Ad]
> Seat 1: crazy razer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 2: letitride10 (button) mucked [Js Ah] - a straight, Ten to Ace
> Seat 3: gmoney04 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: Chisness
> (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: nfinity711 folded before Flop
> (didn't bet) Seat 6: bobcat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 7: wayabvpar showed [Jc Ac] and won ($14) with a Royal Flush
> Seat 8: wheresmykeys folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 9: sluttyh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 10: Unbearable folded before Flop (didn't bet)

FUCK!!!! Why can't I catch hands like this with a decent stack? My opponent made a straight on the turn, and I KNOW I could have extracted a few more bets. Such is life.

It was damned pretty at least.

[Madman]

Well, I just finished a Poker Stars freeroll at 560/6000. I should have finished higher but I got a horrible beat by the luckiest chipleader in history. It was the 8th level 25a 200/400 and I am in the middle of the pack with about 9k or so in chips. I get AdJd and go all in, the chip leader at the table goes and calls me with K4o, the flop comes down 44x with 2 diamonds. He catches a K on the turn and I am all done.

I guess it was just karma for the hand I tripled up on early in the freeroll. I had TT and went all in, get two callers. One has AA, one has KK. I say to myself 'shit, I guess I am going out early'. The flop comes down with a T and I go on to a higher table.

I haven't really been playing much poker for money in the past 2-3 weeks as I have been a bit too busy. I just decided to play this tourny on a whim and I am glad that my skills still seem to be there. I didn't make too man bad moves and I made quite a few good ones.

[Rasix]

Man, I know it's a freeroll, but... why go all in with AJ suited when you're still sitting pretty good with chips?  A lot of poker is still to be played.  

Anyhow, I'm pretty much out of playing online poker.  The wife just isn't comfortable with it and I don't feel like making it an issue. (Just bought a house too, so she's kinda freaked about cash)

I've got plenty of other interests to keep me busy. Ones that don't slowly lose me money.  I'm good enough to make 50 bucks carry me a while, but it's just a matter of attrition.  I don't like playing ring games and you've got to play a little better than I do to make money in the sit n go's. Placing just about every other time loses you money at a trickle rate.  

I'll still be watching the hell out of the WPT.  Some interesting results this year, although I don't particularly like watching Gus Hansen win, the lucky fucker.   Hopefully, somewhere  down the line, I can get in a live game.  Small sit n go's with friends is hard to beat.

[Madman]

Yeah, I probably should have just made a decent sized raise and played it out. Depending on how the other guy bet, I probably would have folded on the turn. If it wasn't a freeroll, I probably wouldn't have gone all in unless I was in the money.

It was really too bad he didn't call my all in a few hands earlier when I had AA. I had gone through a bad run of cards (about 20 hands) and then got AA, junk, junk, AJs fairly fast, so I felt it was a good chance to double up. It just didn't pay off that time.

Oh and Rasix, you should keep playing those $5 SnG's if you can afford it. You will probably slowly bleed money, but it isn't a lot and you can keep your skills sharp. Plus you will slowly start to get in the money more often and should end up being able to keep your head above water. Sure you aren't going to win a lot of money, but you aren't going to lose a lot either.

[Madman]

I have started playing a bit more poker lately just because I have been a bit bored and I think I have actually been playing a bit better. I have only really been playing premium hands and it has been paying off. I have also tried to be a bit more aggressive when I do play a hand. Bluff betting the flop or turn instead of checking when I am in late position, a bit more check raising, reraising possible bluff bets, limping in with big hands preflop when in early position (depends on the table), etc.

I am starting to really like limping in early position with group one hands, especially with AA. I had two hands today where I got AA in the early position (once in the big blind) here are the results:

Code:

*********** # 29 **************
PokerStars Game #475774589: Tournament #1788548, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2004/06/08 - 15:55:48 (ET)
Table '1788548 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: TheMadMadman (1225 in chips) 
Seat 2: mcfoo21 (2500 in chips) 
Seat 3: Crownking159 (3065 in chips) 
Seat 4: Grobar (1040 in chips) 
Seat 5: chiselmonkey (575 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: hutch777 (1550 in chips) 
Seat 9: jabbathut (3545 in chips) 
hutch777: posts small blind 15
jabbathut: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Ac Ah]
TheMadMadman: calls 30
chiselmonkey has returned
mcfoo21: calls 30
Crownking159: folds 
Grobar: folds 
chiselmonkey: calls 30
hutch777: calls 15
jabbathut: raises 210 to 240
TheMadMadman: raises 985 to 1225 and is all-in
mcfoo21: folds 
chiselmonkey: folds 
hutch777: folds 
jabbathut: calls 985
jabbathut said, "ouch"
*** FLOP *** [5d 6c Qh]
*** TURN *** [5d 6c Qh] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [5d 6c Qh 6s] [2h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jabbathut: shows [Ad Ks] (a pair of Sixes)
TheMadMadman: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
TheMadMadman collected 2540 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2540 | Rake 0 
Board [5d 6c Qh 6s 2h]
Seat 1: TheMadMadman showed [Ac Ah] and won (2540) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
Seat 2: mcfoo21 folded before Flop
Seat 3: Crownking159 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Grobar folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: chiselmonkey (button) folded before Flop
Seat 6: hutch777 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: jabbathut (big blind) showed [Ad Ks] and lost with a pair of Sixes

That was probably my favorite move and I almost raised preflop. I decided to limp in and see what happened. When he raised I almost shot out of my seat and went all in to see if he would follow. The other time was the same guy and I was in the big blind:

Code:

*********** # 53 **************
PokerStars Game #475797631: Tournament #1788548, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/06/08 - 16:11:38 (ET)
Table '1788548 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: TheMadMadman (3985 in chips) 
Seat 2: mcfoo21 (2865 in chips) 
Seat 3: Crownking159 (460 in chips) 
Seat 6: hutch777 (3400 in chips) 
Seat 9: jabbathut (2790 in chips) 
jabbathut: posts small blind 50
TheMadMadman: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [As Ac]
mcfoo21: folds 
Crownking159: folds 
TheMadMadman said, "crown is making his comeback!"
hutch777: folds 
jabbathut: raises 100 to 200
Crownking159 said, "lol"
TheMadMadman: raises 3785 to 3985 and is all-in
jabbathut: calls 2590 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Ks 9h 6d]
*** TURN *** [Ks 9h 6d] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Ks 9h 6d Kc] [Qh]
hutch777 said, "gg"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jabbathut: shows [Ad 2s] (a pair of Kings)
TheMadMadman: shows [As Ac] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
jabbathut said, "everytime i call you you have pocket aces"
TheMadMadman said, "gg"
TheMadMadman collected 5580 from  pot
TheMadMadman said, "heh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5580 | Rake 0 
Board [Ks 9h 6d Kc Qh]
Seat 1: TheMadMadman (big blind) showed [As Ac] and won (5580) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: mcfoo21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Crownking159 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hutch777 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: jabbathut (small blind) showed [Ad 2s] and lost with a pair of Kings

I am not sure and I am too lazy to scroll through the history right now, but I believe those were the only two times I went all-in preflop at least until I was in the money. I really enjoy heads up and three way play and I know that if I can get to the money then I have a good chance of winning it all outright. I feel my heads up/three way play is pretty good because even though I will see a lot more flops than I normally would, I feel like I know how to actually play the hands.

I still probably see the flop more than I should, but I feel more comfortable playing that way. If I try to play too tight and only see ~20-25% of the flops, then I end up losing. If I try to play too loose and see ~45-50% of the flops then I usually end up losing. But if I play my normal game and see between 30-35% of the flops then I end up doing much better.  Those percentages are before I get into the money because once I am in the money I tend to see a few more flops than I normally would.

Going all the way to when I started using Poker Tracker, I have played 10.799 hands (single table SnG hands) and I have a VIP of surprisingly high 37.86%. My saw flop not on a blind is 29.17% and saw flop all hands is 40.72. Those numbers are admittedly high, but remember a lot of those hands were played before I really knew how to play Hold 'Em. According to those same numbers, I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are.

Alright, I have babbled enough, so let me just say I am enjoying playing poker again.

[El Gallo]

I am a ring game guy, not a tourney guy, but I cannot imagine calling all in with an A-2 offsuit.

[WayAbvPar]

I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are.

Gone to showdown is about right, but W$SD is too low. It should be between 52 and 58% ideally. Any higher and you are probably folding some winners; lower and you are showing down too many losing hands.

[Rasix]

Sub 50% on a showdowns seems awefully low.  I remember being somewhere in the 60-70% range.  (probably would be higher, but I tend to lose the check-checkathons when no one has any sort of hand) But, I tend to make a lot of laydowns if I believe I'm beat.  I tend to go on gut and when I don't pay attention to the warning bells, bad things happen.

Of course, like Way pointed out, I probably folded a decent amount of winners.  But take anything I say with a grain of salt, I'm not playing anymore and probably won't for a long time.  (still wish there was a live game near me)

[Madman]

I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are.

Gone to showdown is about right, but W$SD is too low. It should be between 52 and 58% ideally. Any higher and you are probably folding some winners; lower and you are showing down too many losing hands.

Yeah, I figured it was a bit low, but remember a bunch of those hands were from when I didn't fully understand the game, plus I end up losing a lot check-a-thons. According to the stats from May on, when I started to take the game a bit more seriously, my W$SD is still a bit low at just over 50%, but much better. Of course my Gone to Showdown numbers are a little higher too at just over 34%.

[Madman]

Can someone smarter than me tell me if this guy was making correct calls? It just doesn't seem like it to me. I probably would have folded out on the turn at the latest.

Code:

*********** # 4 **************
PokerStars Game #477521532: Tournament #1796153, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/06/09 - 15:15:25 (ET)
Table '1796153 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Droid (3060 in chips) 
Seat 3: Sleekit (1680 in chips) 
Seat 4: BiggerJohn (1460 in chips) 
Seat 5: WorldBFree (1460 in chips) 
Seat 6: Brunson10-2 (1500 in chips) 
Seat 7: mtl2d (1480 in chips) 
Seat 8: Waterstone (1420 in chips) 
Seat 9: TheMadMadman (1440 in chips) 
WorldBFree: posts small blind 10
Brunson10-2: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Tc As]
mtl2d: folds 
Waterstone: folds 
TheMadMadman: raises 40 to 60
Droid: folds 
Sleekit: folds 
BiggerJohn: calls 60
WorldBFree: folds 
Brunson10-2: folds 
*** FLOP *** [8h Ts 3d]
TheMadMadman: bets 80
BiggerJohn: raises 80 to 160
TheMadMadman: raises 80 to 240
BiggerJohn: calls 80
*** TURN *** [8h Ts 3d] [2d]
TheMadMadman: bets 200
BiggerJohn: calls 200
*** RIVER *** [8h Ts 3d 2d] [Jc]
TheMadMadman: bets 200
BiggerJohn: raises 200 to 400
TheMadMadman: calls 200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BiggerJohn: shows [Jd Qd] (a pair of Jacks)
TheMadMadman: mucks hand 
BiggerJohn collected 1830 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1830 | Rake 0 
Board [8h Ts 3d 2d Jc]
Seat 1: Droid folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sleekit folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: BiggerJohn (button) showed [Jd Qd] and won (1830) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 5: WorldBFree (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Brunson10-2 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: mtl2d folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Waterstone folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheMadMadman mucked [Tc As] - a pair of Tens

This hand really pissed me off and put way down in the tournament and I ended up going out 5 hands later.

[WayAbvPar]

I can see the logic behind it. Personally, I would want a couple more folks along for the ride preflop so I can get paid if my ideal flop comes, but he likely would have raised with his hand, so calling your raise isn't horrible (not the greatest play either)

. On the flop, he raised you to gather information; you had raised before the flop, then made a weak bet on the flop. Your reraise was small enough to price him in (which is one of the main reasons I never min raise- if I am going to raise, I want people to know I like my hand).

On the turn, he picked up his flush draw. Your bet was not even a third of the pot; his odds of hitting his draws (he has a straight draw, a flush draw, and his overcards may be good for outs) make it right to call. If you want to push him out of the pot, make a pot sized bet here.

On the river, one of his draws hit. If he put you on hand that paired the board, he thinks he is ahead here (which he announces by min raising...god I hate that play).

Were I to play your hand, I would A) probably muck preflop (too early position for ATo unless the table is very passive). If I decided to play, I would raise preflop (as you did).

On the flop, I would make a pot-sized bet- I have TPTK, and someone needs to convince me I don't have the best hand. This also puts the screws to anyone who flopped a straight draw with the 8 and T; the odds are higher than the 2-1 the pot is laying him.

If he still hangs around, I make another pot-sized bet on the turn; until I get raised, I feel like I probably have the best hand. A call here makes me put on the brakes for the river though, fearing my opponent has been passively playing an overpair.

[Madman]

OK, I can understand how he played it. Thanks Way.

It was a little early to tell if the table was passive since it was only the 4th hand that this happened. That is why I made a fairly small raise preflop, had there been any reraises behind me I didn't want to be in for too much and most likely would have folded.

I did miss his flush draw, so I was thinking he was drawing for the gutshot straight or the overpair which is why it didn't make sense to me. Now that I see he had the flush draw too, his call on the turn makes much more sense even if it is a semi-small bet.

You are right, I should have either raised more on preflop, or reraised harder post flop. I was thinking about betting harder pre and post flop, but it was early in the tourney so I didn't want to get too behind. Too bad that didn't work out as planned. Oh well, those are the breaks.

[Kairos]

I am a ring game guy, not a tourney guy, but I cannot imagine calling all in with an A-2 offsuit.

Depending on the circumstances, ace high with a shitty kicker is often a good enough hand to go all-in with in a tourney. But under the circumstances of that hand, I would say not. He still had more than enough chips to do some damage.

[Paelos]

Well, after following this thread I finally succumbed to the pressure and registered for Pokerstars. I started with $100 and i'm up $25 at a .50/1 table last night, and I'm trying out the method of moving up limits that was posted way back on page two. $25 more and I'll move up to the next tier. So far, it's a lot of fun.

[UD_Delt]

Paelos:

Be warned that that is a very agressive scale and odds are you will often go broke and have to drop down multiple times at any given level. If you are certain you have the discipline to always drop down in time or if you are willing to add more money then it's not a bad scale.

Otherwise, if you want to make your initial $100 last as long as possible and build up slowly with low variance I would follow the general rule of thumb of playing within a 300x BB bankroll. This also gives you time to play at each level so you have the confidence that you actually beat that level and didn't just get lucky.

Start at .50/1 and move up to 1/2 when you have $600. 2/4 at $1200 and so on.

[WayAbvPar]

Another option- if you like tournament play, there a tons of cheap ($10 or under) multitable tournaments every week. Also, you can play one or two table Sit and Gos (sponataneous tournaments that start as soon as they fill) starting at $5.50. Lots of bang for your buck at the low levels.

[Paelos]

I've looked at the tournaments, and I played in a NL $3 last night, which I got waxed in, but I was playing with my winnings from the .10/.25 table as the entry, so no loss there. The problem is that the tourneys I like go on while I'm at work, so I have trouble getting into them. I'm not ready for the big dog $20 ones that seem to go on during my primetime of 7-11 EST.

Any thoughts on the best tournament to focus on for starters and some possible strategies?

[UD_Delt]

For experience start playing as many of the 9 man NL $5.50 Sit & Go's as you can. If you play extremely tight (Tier 1 & 2 hands) it should get you into the money about 40% of the time which will be a little better than break even.

Once you get used to the flow of the game for the single table tourneys try the 2 table (18 man) tournies. From there you can either focus on moving up in limits at the single and 2-table tournies or you can work on expanding what you know into the larger field tournies.

[El Gallo]

Depending on the circumstances, ace high with a shitty kicker is often a good enough hand to go all-in with in a tourney. But under the circumstances of that hand, I would say not. He still had more than enough chips to do some damage.

I could see going all in with Ax would be the right thing to do in some situations, but calling all in with it?  I guess maybe if you were about to get driven out of the game with the blind costs maybe.  Like I said, I know jack about proper tournament play.  I catass ring games for the win :)

[Paelos]

I've seen you throw around the term of tiers a lot, exactly what hands constitute Tier 1 hands and Tier 2 hands? I'm guessing Tier one is AA, KK, AK. Is tier 2 KQ, QQ, QJ? If so how does AJ, KJ, AQ fall into the spectrum?

[Rasix]

Ok sanity check.  Calling an all in with A 2o when you've still got plenty of chips is stupid and bad play.  All you're doing is hoping for an ace and praying your oponent doesn't have one either. I can see going all in with in if you're short stacked, but otherwise, it's not that good of a hand and often unless it's down to a few people I'd outright fold it.  Of course, Phil Gordon won in the WPT event  I saw last night by calling 2 all-ins with an A7 (can't remember if it was suited, stronger hand than A2), caught the ace and knocked out Masoud(10 6s, wtf) and Moneymaker (JJ) at the same time.

Personally, I can't stand ring games. I prefer the tournament settings.  But you can and do make more money more steadily at the ring games if you play smart.  Just can't beat the tension and drama in a tournament (can't beat the horrendous suckouts either, uggg).

Edit: For recommendations, I'd go for the $5.50 sit n go's.  You'll get a good sense of tournament play and you'll sometimes even get to play a good player.   Just a bit of warning, it won't take you long at this level to realize why they dub Pokerstars "Riverstars".  You'll take some horrendously bad beats but take the high road and don't cry about them (god I hate that).