Guitar thread

[Sky]

I love the older stuff, too. Though my favorite vocalist is hard to pin down, I love Muddy but Howlin' Wolf is more like what I wish I sounded like. Blind Willie Johnson is great for vocals and slide. And of course Elmore is amazing on slide. Big Bill is maybe my overall favorite from the acoustic-only set.

I certainly wouldn't call Little Walter a hack. I like him, but I probably prefer Junior Wells, but Jr's vocals and Buddy Guy help with that one.

I don't really have favorites anymore.

[stray]

It's hard to put aside the ignorance SRV has caused among younger blues fans. You go see a guy like BB or Buddy Guy and they start telling stories about the old blues guys, and everyone starts yelling "STEVIE!". Buddy Guy got wicked pissed at one show, saying SRV was great, but you gotta learn about what went before, same as SRV. Most of SRV's great stuff is built on what came before. I got into blues hardcore mostly listening to SRV one summer, but I had been listening to Muddy for years before that, so I kinda got into the SRV hate phase for a long time. Now I can enjoy it all. I just try to turn the kids onto Albert, Buddy, Otis, T-Bone, Freddie, Sam, Matt (with Memphis Slim and Willie Dixon), Hound Dog, Earl, Johnny, Rory, Peter (and Danny, I'm on a huge Mac bender lately, love their live stuff), Lightnin', Luther, Son, uhh etc :)

Gotcha! But dude, I'm not that young! Probably only a few years younger than you (31). I got respect my brutha!

Otis is the best fucking guitar player/singer combo ever. That man is in my top 5, and my top 1 blues player.

Albert IS Stevie without the manic-ness. And I'm from Texas, so I dig the Texas blues shit, it's all over here man. Favorite current Texas dude is Doyle Bramhall II (well, he's not current...been around since Stevie, and made that excellent Arc Angels album about/after Stevie passed away). What I meant though is, I loved Stevie, and then just kind of wanted to stop hearing about him...He's just talked about all the time. Then I came back around again. He deserves to be talked about. The guy was so passionate, playing wise, singing wise. Amazing through and through.

[Sky]

I just agreed with you, dipshit 

Doyle's fucking awesome, I got turned onto his stuff by a coworker but the first thing I have with him on it is the CD/DVD set of Clapton's Sessions for Robert J, which is a cool set (and the Robert Johnson tribute album is pretty good, too, for a bunch of white dudes). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfRtUJ01oI

And then there was the last Clapton tour I REALLY wanted to see, with Clapton, Bramhall and Trucks. Holy shnikes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yaJVT1yV9s

[stray]

Haven't seen any of that (I think?). Will try to check it out, thanks.

Yeah, Doyle's great. Moving away from Blues and a little into the Soul/R&B kind of thing lately, but it's still groovy, positive stuff.

[Oz]

Howlin' Wolf is more like what I wish I sounded like.

I think every male wishes they had that deep, gravely voice.  Its genetics or some shit.

I certainly wouldn't call Little Walter a hack

I know, i'm just a little bitter about him because everytime i bring up Big Walter people think i'm talking about Little Walter.  The difference is astronomical.

[stray]

I wish I had a gravely voice, but more in the Jeff Tweedy sense. Any Wilco fans here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlsfM3Tf70


Not their most rockin' song (but they do have a MONSTROUS guitar player in Nels Cline), but that song is great stuff imo.

[stray]

Revisting Little Wing...

While I admire if you try to learn a Jimi or SRV version, don't you think it's just a damn fun song to run with on your own? Y'know getting the basic Jimi hammer-ons and shit, knowing the chords, and just doing your own version? Just curious...

[Selby]

...don't you think it's just a damn fun song to run with on your own?

I used to do this for hours in my room in high school.  Figure out a song's basic structure and just run with it for 15-20m.  None of my friends ever understood why you wouldn't want to make it sound just like the record.

[stray]

Fuck em!  I think if Jimi himself played Little Wing in front of people, it would definitely not sound like the album version either.

Seriously though, I had the same problem back in highschool days. This is even when I WOULD play a song perfectly, but say, did it on an acoustic or used a different tone than the original. People come around as you get older though. The only ones who I'd say are completely forgiving are the girls. As long as you can strike a note, you're probably OK!

This goes without saying that this is exactly what SRV did with the song anyways. 

[edit] See, I'm just mentioning this because I'm trying to get a decent sounding version on acoustic. I can't really hit that nice lead bend at the end on this guitar, so I'm trying to substitute the lead with a kind of bass-y, jazzy thing.

[edit] Ah, so here's a guy doing it the way I'm shooting for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9KIHzvMCE8

I was checkin' other versions, and while good, they blow off into shredder wankery. The guy above is keeping it tasteful and simple (I'm trying to sing my version too, Eb much easier to do it with).

[Sky]

I am incapable of playing a song straight. Just can't do it. Was playing through some stuff from the Guitar Hero songbook I linked in the GH3 thread, and I was laughing at myself how much I meandered through songs. The reason I want to learn the Hendrix version as recorded is part tribute, part base. I listened to a LOT of Hendrix as a kid, even when I was full-on metal, and it's my fiancee's favorite song, so that's the tribute. Then I take the original as a base, so I can work off that and just put in the touchstone phrases that everyone wants to hear and that identify the song.

The SRV version is simply the best song ever recorded on guitar, so same kinda deal. I want to learn it to play straight for myself and also to have the phrase bag for when I'm jamming it.

Basically, what I said about Since I've Been Loving You. It was a bit easier with that because there are a few live versions of Jimmy playing it. I'm all over on that song, it's my favorite pattern (12/8) and my favorite style (minor blues), so I can really explore different ways of playing it. But you need the touchstone phrases to bring it back to the recognizable, and also as lead-ins if you're playing with a band, so they know you're moving into another part of the song.

The worst version I've heard to date is the G3 version from Vai, Satriani and Malmsteen. Vai's cheesy lounge vocals and the inappropriate soloing. Satch did a decent solo in the song, but did join the wankfest at the end. I fucking hate wankers and struggle to not do that when I play, since I was birthed (musically speaking) in the age of the shred.

[stray]

Right on. Everything you said I agree with. Get the key phrases and just explore a little.

I couldn't really wank even if I wanted to though. Although I find myself *able* to wank sometimes, depending on the guitar. I have this Ibanez sitting around right now that I can shred on much easier than I can on a Strat or my JM. The fretboard is so damn flat, and the strings feel like air (as opposed to the cables on my Fender). I digress though.

I'm sure that SRV can wank with the best of them (and Jimi, of course), but he just had that instinct to not go over the top, and injected everything with soul (if that makes sense). OR more importantly, he kept it what it was -- essentially a blues-y song. I am impressed on a technical level by wankers, but they never give me goosepumps. It's no better than elevator music to me. That kid above does a better acoustic version than this guy in my opinion (i.e. the Welcome to Squareville version).

[edit] OK, I just watched that G3 version. Still not as bad as that Monte Montgomery version above (seriously, that shit would be the version of Little Wing I'd hear in Hell).

At least the G3 version started out OK. Even Steve's vocals were cool...BUT then, yeah, he started getting all Perry Como and shit. Malmsteen fucked it all up. Malmsteen fucks everything up, for that matter. Steve did a cool solo, even if it was wankery. Joe did the right thing though and brought it down to earth. All in all though, it still lacked balls.

There's only two shredders that I really like, I think. That's Randy and EVH (well Zakk, Dime, and that Billy Idol dude too). I don't know what it is about them, but they manage to wank and have soul at the same time (well EVH used to at least). There's still a tinge of blues to what they do.

[Nebu]

I fucking hate wankers and struggle to not do that when I play, since I was birthed (musically speaking) in the age of the shred.

I appreciate the technical mastery of wankers, but they are unlistenable to me.  Gilmour in Comfortably Numb or most any Clapton solo evokes far more raw emotion while drawing the listener in.  I always brought this to my professional playing.  When I practice, I'll play crazy Chris Squire of Geddy Lee bass lines, but in front of people I prefer to sit in back and support a solid groove.  I think it's all part of being secure enough to adopt a less-is-more philosophy with music. 

[Sky]

Eh, I was all over as a bass player. Whatever worked with the song. I was watching a thing on MHD the other night about the Who, and it's funny how similar Entwistle is when it comes to bass lines, at least conceptually. We were also a four-piece, so it was just me and the guitar, and that's a LOT of space to fill, especially during solo time. I rarely saw the bass as a bass, more as just another instrument. People say I play bass like guitar and guitar like bass, but whatever. I don't bother with those kind of preconceived notions of what's proper, as long as it works in the context of whatever you're playing.

And we saw the Colbert Report with Rush and I was reminded of my bass tone, before I took over bass duties our old bass player was a huge Rush fan and had that tone totally dialed in. So when I started playing bass, I just stole his tone :) I love playing guitar, but there's just something you can't replace about a good, LOUD, thunderous tone coming out of your fingers.

[Sky]

Btw, new Buddy Guy album out soon: http://www.buddyguy.net/site.html for some tracks. If he is in your area, I /highly/ recommend getting out to see him. He's in his 70s and still puts on a damned good show.

[stray]

Heh yeah, I get the same comment Sky. Almost had to kick my friend's ass once, when he told me  "Dude, you need to quit guitar. You're so much better on bass." Haha.

But it's all purposeful, y'see (yeah, so I say  ).

Really though, I don't necessarily get crazy on bass -- I couldn't anyways. I both hold Nebu's philosophy about the groove, but sometimes go out of my way to not keep it completely straight. I still do fill-ins and jump to seemingly odd areas. A melodic bass player.. or whatever you want to call it.

I like to play rhythm guitar though, and flourish someone else's rhythm with a seemingly different riff that makes it all sound bigger. That's what's fun to me. Not bass playing. It could be the simplest shit that turns a basic rock song into something better. This is why I harp on about Television so much. If you take the time to learn the second guitar in See No Evil (below), you see how brilliant it is... It could have been just another punk song, but it isn't.

Example: Television - See No Evil

Anyhow, not enough people explore the secondary/possible rhythms in a song, so when I jam, I aspire to that. I don't give a shit if it's technically impressive or not. I just want a song to sound better.

[Nebu]

We were also a four-piece, so it was just me and the guitar, and that's a LOT of space to fill, especially during solo time.

I played in a 3 piece, so I understand.  You also make a great point about Entwistle.  What I loved about Entwistle was that he recognized that the sound of the bass was every bit as important as the notes.  Don't get fooled again is a great example.  After years playing bass, taurus pedals, and singing, I always felt that playing in a 4 or 5 piece allowed a lot more creativity.  This may be why I was such a huge Nirvana fan.  They did a lot with the 3 piece especially considering how hamstrumg they were at bass.

[stray]

Don't forget the Police!  At least on the earlier albums.

Speaking of Nirvana, sometimes I think the young Sting was even more depressed and dark than Cobain was (especially in this song). All while doing reggae. Hah!

[Sky]

NSFW - http://kingdomofstyle.typepad.co.uk/photos/uncategorized/mond1.jpg I want that as an inspirational poster :P

I always wanted some of those pedals, a friend had some and they seemed cool as hell.

Rhythm, lead whatever. Too categorical imo. It's one reason I love the old-time blues guys. I was reading a blues history book a few years ago and one of the 'young guys' (first gen electric players) was complaining about the old guys sitting in with them. "Them old guys, can't sit in with you. They play the bottom, the top, the middle, they don't leave no room for nobody else!"

I can't wait for this moving stuff to settle down, finish the last few major construction projects and get back to jamming. I was actually about to start playing out at the open mic nights when the whole house thing gelled, so it was bad timing as far as playing goes! Here's the two songs I have ready to go (that I can also sing with):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Humlh4YeEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odhl-UqBymw
(heh - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VlRUIHwygc )

While I'm making friday afternoon links, I got a coupon for amazon as a credit card bonus reward thingy, which is nirvana for a broke guy. Here's the loot drops:

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Boston-Dig-Fleetwood-Mac/dp/B000086EOF - second part of the live show I've been listening to alot lately   Green + Kirwin
http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Masters-Brozmans-Bottleneck-Guitar/dp/1576237273 - been on my wishlist for years
http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Groove-Guitar-1945-1965-Inside/dp/0793551668 - I've got another book in the series that's about the blues, good reading and style summation
http://www.amazon.com/Play-Solo-Flamenco-Guitar-Martin/dp/0786664584 - another style I like to dabble in, so I want to start getting better...now I need a nylon string :)
http://www.amazon.com/Country-Guitar-Grossmanæs-Masters-American/dp/0739042815 - Checking out this series, looks pretty decent. Mishmash of prose, fake sheets and tab/notation.

[stray]

Kind of my point! I like different types of parts to be layered on to each other. If you're crunching chords, it's kind of pointless for the other guy to be crunching the same chords as you. Or vice versa. Throw some part of a lead in there, something that his fingers can't get to physically, and run around the rhythm. Then switch roles accordingly. I don't like the "system" of a strictly rhythm guitar player, with the lead guitarist following the chords until he breaks into a solo. There are more possibilities.

Supposedly, one of the first examples of this type interchanging of riffs was the Stones, when Brian was alive (in 19th Nervous Breakdown).

My other point is that I could be doing a very minor thing (cuz that's all it takes sometimes), but a dipshit audience/friend of mine thinks the playing is not impressive. It doesn't have to be. Only the song needs to be.

I'd take that poster. Only rock poster I have is of Elvis. I'm a fag.

[Selby]

Right on. Everything you said I agree with. Get the key phrases and just explore a little.

I remember learning Black Dog from Led Zeppelin at 16 and playing the shit out of it for 10-15 minutes at a time.  Extra chorus, extra verse, nifty things tossed in at the end to extend it considerably.  I wanked and sucked at it, but I had a good time figuring out what sounded good and what sounded lame (no matter how much you read or theorize, it doesn't mean anything unless you try it and verify).  I had an interesting version of War Pigs into Behind The Wall Of Sleep and NIB then back to War Pigs with an extended outro that was fun and went on for almost half an hour with various parts tossed in to make it interesting (too bad the shitty cassette recording was lost years ago - technology was JUST there on computer recording but I didn't have the machine to do it).

I don't like the "system" of a strictly rhythm guitar player, with the lead guitarist following the chords until he breaks into a solo. There are more possibilities.

Agreed wholeheartedly here.  Listen to Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, all the guitarists are playing different parts of the song at the same time.  Sometimes one guy does lead, sometimes another just jams on the chords, every now and again some nifty harmonies show up.  Then there are guitar solos that switch back and forth 3-4 times and all complement each other.  Beats 2 guitarists mashing the same power chords the whole time.  I can't remember specifically which artist I listened to where I came to the realization that "lead" and "rhythm" were just terms that didn't mean anything without some soul behind the song.  And that I didn't have to stick to one or the other.

One thing I am not much of a fan of is 5-6 layered guitar tracks on a song in a 3 or 4 piece band.  Either they end up faded so poorly into the mix you can't hear them or they jumble around and don't contribute much to the song besides a mess and expense.  Then there is the complication of actually trying to make the song sound something similar live.

Regarding tone, it is interesting to toy around with it.  I used to ignore it, then I got an amp that actually worked and could make changes.  Certain artists I can absolutely nail the guitar sound (Judas Priest, Jeff Hanneman of Slayer, certain Bad Religion songs) others I just can't make it sound remotely close (Alex Lifeson: looking at YOU, especially on The Pass).  It is interesting to hear the studio trickery in the guitar work on certain artists and then see how they play it live, then realize that YES, there really is studio trickery going on to make the guitar sound the way it does.

[stray]

Heh, I guess I could say that I can be wanker when it comes to tone. Not always necessarily in replicating a song (as I said, I don't get too crazy about that), but I do stop midway through songs a lot when jamming other stuff. Just when everyone's in a groove, all of the sudden I'm tweaking all of my knobs or grabbing a different guitar and getting pissed lol. Sometimes though, it's understandable. I live in a town of hard rockers and metalheads -- and I'm the guy who plays fenders and blues amps (not to say my gear can't get "hard", but more in a overdrive, garage-y kind of way). I have a digital amp that can bring out harder tones, but I only recently got a guitar with hot pickups again. You can not play metal or anything even resembling metal on a jazzmaster.

In a way though, I would that that I'M the one who sounds harder than the metalheads. My gear is just beautifully ugly. I usually shoot for something Jack White-ish/JSBX/Sage/Verlaine-ish. A lot of metal is technically harder, but it sounds a lot more sanitized imo.

Never run into tone problems on bass. So much easier to get what I want there.

It's easier to approximate other artists conveniently through digital amps now, but not exactly ideal either. You'll find though that cab emulation is the bigger problem. These amps do a pretty good job of getting some nuances of a plexi's pre/power stage, or a twin, or whatever, but then, if you're amp only has one or two speakers, it's going to sound off in some songs. This goes without mentioning how the original track was mic'ed, or double tracked, and shit like that. Heh

[Nebu]

I was just going through some old cd's and came across this song.  If you forward to about 1:10 you'll see a great example of bass playing minimalizm that generates a tremendous groove.  God I love the bass line in this song. 

Never run into tone problems on bass. So much easier to get what I want there.

I wish I could say that.  I have a 70's era jazz that I play through an old ampeg and a 2x10 enclosure.  I love the crispness, but can't get the growl that I want without going back to a Rick bass.  The other thing that's killing me is this hollow body bass I have.  I used to play through a vox hollow and recently bought an ibanez bass that looks like a ES335.  It makes some interesting sounds, but I can't get a solid bottom end from it.  Maybe that's just the deal with the hollow body.  Maybe I need to use my 2x15 cab more... I need to replace the drivers in it. 

[stray]

I bet that ampeg is the shit. The 10's are fine for that growling sound, though you might to add more 10's. 

Besides that, just crank mids and bass, turn down treb. Not sure what the nature is of your jazz, maybe since it's vintage, the pickups have cooled down over time, but j's can definitely growl (not to say they can sound like a Ric though). Perhaps you're Ric just had hotter pickups at the time, and was more suitable to how that amp started breaking up. I'd suggest checking out a solid body with humbuckers, even a cheapo, and seeing how it sounds. You're hollow probably has hb's (as does everything Ibanez), but yeah, they're kind of thin otherwise.

[edit] My favorite bass groove.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPH3xNkHFhE

Obvious choice, I know. It's great stuff though. I go long periods without playing bass, and it's always the first thing I start playing when I pick one up.

[Sky]

I'd really like to get an ampeg head to match my ampeg 8x10 cab (really 7x10 ). I've needed to upgrade my bass pickups for about ten years now. With my old gigging rig (which was stolen) of Kasino power amp into a peavey 2x15 loaded with 2 400W full range EV's, I played so loud that I got a pretty decent Geddy Lee thumping tone. A lot of it was in the fingers, though. Now with my shitty little Peavey Mk III and the whole not playing at extreme volume, the pickups are lame. Had a roommate for a while with an old Gibson grabber, the pickups on that thing fucking rocked. I tried to buy it from him since he didn't play bass, but he wouldn't sell (vintage early 60s, in case, mint condition with tags...he bought for $150). I kept pestering him, and one day he was all "Oh yeah, I sold that." Fucker. A rickey is definitely on the list to get some day.

Minimalism, eh. We had a few songs where I went for that, but I tend to have a hard time playing minimalist. My only problem with minimalism is when people criticize my non-minimalist playing (cough Nebu cough). 

Check out something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91Qj870HHk The bass line is pretty simpy, but tight and active. And even with that in most modern blues setups, the bass and guitar would be covering piano parts, too. I tend toward the active bass players, just my own preference and natural style. When I picked up the bass the guys I learned from were Geez, Geddy, Harris, and Cliff. The first bass songs I learned were http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQ5jhtFypg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjoxJsgbWbM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ofFa50LzY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CplR6xl5-14

[stray]

My speakers aren't working very well. Can't hear the bass in that Muddy song. 

I think I'm in agreement with both of ya though. I like minimalism, but yet, I like moving around in it a little, and not following root notes all the time. There's the minimalists, the badass maestros, and the melodic guys, I guess. I fall in the last category. Most of what I learned/admired about bass playing came from Paul McCartney actually.. He'd play some simple groove for the first few bars, and then start moving around, keeping the groove, but in completely different ways. Mike Watt is another favorite. And of course, Flea. I mean, Flea can rip with the best of em, but he's mostly melodic when it comes to recorded songs.

[Nebu]

I've found that my movement in a piece depends on a couple of things:  How good the drummer is and how busy the guitar/keyboards are.  It's all about creating a cohesive piece of music.  I'm not a huge fan of Mozart and try to keep my meandering appropriate to the music.  John Paul Jones is a master at this which is why I think he's often very underrated as a bass player. 

[stray]

You're right... It's all about the song in the end. Whatever works! 

I'll admit, I'm probably guilty of "underrating" John Paul Jones. Hell, and Entwistle as well. Both of those guys had to keep their bands in check though. Who else was gonna do it? Bonham? Moon? Page? Townsend? Yeah, right. 

[stray]

OK, on to a different subject (well, back to Jimi songs).

Don't know why I didn't notice this before, but is it kind of...well...impossible...to get Jimi right without playing with your thumb (that is, if you're really trying to get it right)?

[Sky]

SRV is like that, too, for obvious reasons. Luckily, I was really into Hendrix when I was playing the tennis racket, so when I got a guitar, I learned a few of his tunes, though not the lead parts. So even though I have pretty small hands, playing stuff like Wind Cries Mary during that formative time paid off for the old thumb.

I like Andy Aledort's Hendrix instructional DVD. Andy rocks. He's on tour with Dickey Betts.

[stray]

I noticed that John Frusciante is the same way.

Oh well! I learned that fingerpicking technique from White Wedding. Using my thumb is long overdue. Time to learn something new. 

[Selby]

Don't know why I didn't notice this before, but is it kind of...well...impossible...to get Jimi right without playing with your thumb (that is, if you're really trying to get it right)?

Yes.  Very amusing to see that pop up from time to time, and since I don't usually play with my thumb that way, it alway sounds like crap until I've practiced it a few times (well, less like crap than it normally sounds like).

[stray]

All of this time, I've just played some of his chords by barre-ing, and then used my pinky when he does those hammer-ons. I'm noticing though from Little Wing that it's really difficult doing it that way, when transitioning from some chords (like that sliding riff at the end of the intro run, right before he sings)....He's hitting bass notes at the oddest times. Figured it was the thumb.

It's not physically hard though. I have big hands. But it is a bigger pain in the ass on my acoustic (which is how I want to cover some Jimi songs).

[Raph]

Recently tossed up on the blog:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/07/27/the-sunday-song-dadgaething/

http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/07/06/the-sunday-song-midsummer/

Both mostly just messing around.

[stray]

Picks...

What do you prefer?


I'm finding my habits are changing in different ways (been kinda touching on that). Picks are another thing. Almost always used to use very thin picks (and just burned through a lot of them). Now I'm preferring super fucking hard ones. I'm not as fast and can't strum as easily, but the attack is so much more ballsy.

[Nebu]

It's interesting that you mention this.  I found that the better the guitarist I played with was, the thicker the pick they used.  I've always loved the attack of a thick pick, but found I could control a thin pick better.  I guess this says a lot about my guitar skill.