D&D online beta begins

[HaemishM]

I was subscribed to EQ1 for about 2 1/2 years. DAoC for about 7 months, Shadowbane for 2 months, CoH for 9 months and WoW (originally) for 1 month. That pattern should scare devs shitless about subscription models.

[Merusk]

I was subscribed to EQ1 for about 2 1/2 years. DAoC for about 7 months, Shadowbane for 2 months, CoH for 9 months and WoW (originally) for 1 month. That pattern should scare devs shitless about subscription models.

Nah, to them it just means they should ignore you since sub games aren't your thing.  See it's all about point of view. ;)

(EQ 4 years off and on, WoW 1 year, SWG 6 months, COH 1 year, DAOC 5 months, Shadowbane 3-4 months, AO 2 months, EvE 4 months, AC1 One Month)

[Samwise]

If a Tony Hawk game came out that allowed you to skate with/against other players online, but no additional gametypes/content would you expect to pay $15/mo for it?

Depends on much fun it is to play.  If it's fun enough to be worth $15/mo then I'll pay $15/mo as long as it continues to be fun.  I don't really care what arbitrary items on a checklist it has or doesn't have if they don't contribute to how much fun I have playing the game.

If "additional gametypes" or whatever are necessary for you to have fun, then say that.  Don't say "a subscription game must have X feature", say "A game without X feature will not engage me sufficiently for it to be worth $Y per month."

[Swede]

..."I was subscribed to EQ1 for about 2 1/2 years. DAoC for about 7 months, Shadowbane for 2 months, CoH for 9 months and WoW (originally) for 1 month. That pattern should scare devs shitless about subscription models..."


No - It should give devs a clue that the playerbase have evolved faster than the games have.
  Lojality is a factor of satisfaction and barriers. Satisfaction stems from expecations (tru disconfirmation of said expectations) of the game and perceived performance of the game. Barriers are mainly, imo,  informational (ie. we dont know about other products available on the market), or sunk cost (we have invested so much time in this game) in their nature. As time progress and lojal customers increase their knowledge about mmogs the variables change. Barriers are largely unchanged on a aggregated lvl, we learn about other mmorgs, but invest more time in the ones we currently subscribe to (...if we do that).
 However, expectations will start to be based on actual experience instead of third party information. As the validity of the expectations rises (that is, we get more sure about the "correctedness" of our expectations), they will start to diminish as drivers of satisfaction.

- That is: When we are more sure about what we expect - the satisfaction resulting from positive disconfirmation ( that something performs better than you had expected it to) will decrease.

Instead perceived performance of the games will increase. Thus - as we play and gain experience, we will start to focus more on what we actually play, instead on what we are expecting to play.

This is a fairly accepted model of how satisfaction ("fun") affects lojality ("subscription time") for general product- and service goods. (ever wondered why everyone thinks their first mmog was soo much better than the current ones?) It explains why it is feasible to spend money to the cheaper-than-development marketing and attract a "new" crowd (ala. WoW) than actually make a good game (which wont attract new, unexperianced players anyway unless its as hyped - resulting in more costs).


 I predict that untill the market have matured - we will have to look at the smaller (indie?) mmogs for quality. Or stick with the least shitty one...

 Edit: swenglish rocks + some clarification

[Margalis]

For someone like me the only "endgame" is to roll a new character. I've never been into raids or any junk like that.

Subscriber fees are interesting when you think about it. Why does it make sense to subscribe to MMORPG that doesn't do a lot of live updates? What it really boils down to is that it takes a lot of money to run, so you pay a fee.  What if you one day found out that WoW only cost $10 a month to run - when you pay a fee then?

And that line of reasoning (that it costs money to keep up) is an argument from the perspective of the seller, not the buyer. Why would I pay a fee for WoW when Starcraft is twice as fun and free?

It's like the argument that indy games don't have a lot of money, and hence look like crap. That's another argument from the seller. As the buyer what I care about it that the game looks like crap- the reason doesn't matter.

I don't see why D&DO would really be that much cheaper to run anyway. It may be instanced but each instance still has all the data on the server. Bandwidth, database, etc should be about equal. Mayb if there isn't much crafting and such the database could be trimmed down but there is still a lot of server-side data and processing, customer support, etc.

[Hoax]

Well if the only "endgame" is to roll a new character, then it really doesn't matter to you.  I despise raiding so I'm with you on that one, but I do see it as a viable achiever/social aspect.  If I dont need to pay monthly for GuildWars and almost everyone agrees that GW would never have worked as a subscription based MMO I dont think DDO is any different.  We'll see, at this point its really not worth debating anymore because the people in the beta are a wee bit defensive (understandable we haven't had a good MMO in how long? never?).  I'm either wrong or I get to say I told you so.

[Samwise]

I'm just annoyed that whenever someone tries to make something that doesn't suck like every other MMOG, the masses complain that it's not enough like other MMOGs.   

[StGabe]

Sounds better than it played at E3.  Which could be a good thing I hope.  Or could just be the hype machine overcoming reality once again.

*shrug*

I'll check it out at retail.  I've beta'ed enough.

Gabe.

[Johny Cee]

Holy fucking shit.

Is the Swede going to be the DDO version of Hrose?

Edit:

Apologies to the Swede.  After rereading, I came off more rude than I would have liked.  I need to stop reading Hrose's DAoC posts.

[Swede]

I might have been offended if i had known what you were talking about..

[stray]

Ignorance is bliss.

Though if I can recall, I don't think I've ever read one of HRose's DAoC posts myself. I just kind stare at them for a while.

[Sky]

I was subscribed to EQ1 for about 2 1/2 years. DAoC for about 7 months, Shadowbane for 2 months, CoH for 9 months and WoW (originally) for 1 month. That pattern should scare devs shitless about subscription models.

Hey, this is fun! UO for 3 years, EQ for 2 years (1 year longer than I enjoyed it, though...learned my lesson on that one), AC for 2 months, AO for 3 months, DAoC for 2 months, Planetside for all but maybe three months since release, SWG for 3 months on and off (though I still contend the newest SWG is the most fun, though I'm not l33t enough to bitch like most people...I just never had fun in SWG before now), CoH for 8 months on and off (thanks for deleting my names, asswipes, won't be back), WoW for 6 months.

I just don't have the time or 'dedication' for these goddamned games anymore. I just want to play a game, not live a life. People like 'Desperado' scare me.

[Signe]

I like HRose.  I think he's sweet.  I like it especially when he writes posts that look like they might be poetry but they're really just posts about the stuff.  I don't know who Swede is but if he's really Swedish, I'm not allowed to like him until every one of my family in Bergen over the age of 70 is dead and buried.

No worries.  It won't be long now.

[Swede]

I like HRose. I think he's sweet. I like it especially when he writes posts that look like they might be poetry but they're really just posts about the stuff. I don't know who Swede is but if he's really Swedish, I'm not allowed to like him until every one of my family in Bergen over the age of 70 is dead and buried.

No worries. It won't be long now.

Its ok - I really am swedish

[Xilren's Twin]

Again I didn't even criticize I just questioned applying the subscription model to a game that has less longevity as far as I can tell then any fps/rts on the market.

If a Tony Hawk game came out that allowed you to skate with/against other players online, but no additional gametypes/content would you expect to pay $15/mo for it?

For a persistant online world with career modes that allows you to skate against and chat with your friends; while I wouldn't, I know tons of teenage boys who would.  That's the point; for any given subscription entertainment, only the consumer can decide if the cost is "worth it"; there is no magical amount of game length or bullet point features which suddenly makes WoW's $15 a month valid and GW lack of fee not.  Longevity is an illusion if the game sucks for you.

In terms of longevity = game length to max (or whatever), as a general rule, I cannot recall a single or multiplayer RPG (other than NWN) that had more than 100 hours of content.  Hell if you find one with 40 these days you're lucky.  By comparison's sake, that's like 2-4 weeks for a typical mmorpg player.  You just don't find the sheer amount of content in a single title outside of the mmorpg arena.  Not only does the worst mmorpg have at least several months of content, it cheaper to buy the box plus sub months 2-6 than buying a new spanking sp game every 30 days (even if you could find one you liked).  That justifies the cost for many gamers right there.  

Adding crafting, or housing or any ancillary game system does add content, but how that equates to longer sub rates is really hard to say b/c unless you fully flesh it out, it only represents a fraction of a players gameplay experience.  If the choice between limited development resources is between making the core game fun or adding 14 half assed game systems together so you can claim you have a "virtual world", I know what I'm choosing.  It's same argument I've thrown up to Raph a few times. either start with a single fun gamesystem and do it really well but narrow, or start with everything and the kitchen sink and have it all be mediocre but deep.  I want the focused, well done game now.  Being a new take or style makes it that much better.

It wouldn't really bother me if after 3 months im done with any new game; it's become harder and harder for any new game to keep me even beyond the first 30 days anymore because most of them are very similar to what I've already played.  I don't think I'm alone in that.

In terms of DDO specifically, well the other two beta test i was recently in, CoV and AA, didn;t keep me more than 2 weeks tops.  With DDO I'm still   so take that as you will.

Xilren

[stray]

I like HRose.  I think he's sweet.  I like it especially when he writes posts that look like they might be poetry but they're really just posts about the stuff.  I don't know who Swede is but if he's really Swedish, I'm not allowed to like him until every one of my family in Bergen over the age of 70 is dead and buried.

No worries.  It won't be long now.

I'm more American than Danish or Norwegian, but I've been told as much as well.

[Morfiend]

Ignorance is bliss.

Though if I can recall, I don't think I've ever read one of HRose's DAoC posts myself. I just kind stare at them for a while.

I think HRose has some very valid points, and I actually like reading his posts. I think the one problem he has is ... 

[schild]

No, his problem is definately articulation.

The beating a dead horse awards went to Grimwell, Terra Nova, and Escapist Magazine. I'd give the award to f13.net too, if we didn't ignore the dead horse. But we do, and the frontpage is lacking for it. I'm ok with that.

[stray]

Well, I'm probably guilty of both.

[Signe]

Thank God there's nothing wrong with my articulation.  I'd hate it if I couldn't get around because I had bad knees.

[Der Helm]

Ignorance is bliss. If my articulation was bad, I would never know it.

At least until someone is impolite enough to point it out to me.

Not that I would have something to fear in this particular community


Edit: Schild, the spell checker is borken

[Tebonas]

Its not articulation but if you like I'll point out to you that you wrote community wrong.

Always happy to please our northern neighbours. Come visit us during your holidays. We have mountains and stuff.

[Der Helm]

I blame the broken spell check. :-D

Always happy to please our northern neighbours. Come visit us during your holidays. We have mountains and stuff.

I am at work and a bit busy, so ...

*insert witty comment about Austria here*

[Numtini]

Well, originally the value thing was also on the issue of the cost required to support a game server that is capable of hosting thousands of people at once. That may have been a figleaf, but at least it was there. Clearly that's not a problem for DDO because from everything i can decipher, it's just a multiplayer game. It's not massively multiplayer. It's Guildwars or Diablo 2. So it's really I think pushing a new precedent for a pay to play model, at least in the fantasy genre. (Sims Online is not MMO either, but it bombed for other reasons.) More than a "is it worth 15 of fun a month" I'm also thinking "if I pay for this, what am I not going to get charged 15 a month to play?"

Civ IV is probably worth 15 a month to play solo for me. But it would irk me to have to do so.

[Dren]

More than a "is it worth 15 of fun a month" I'm also thinking "if I pay for this, what am I not going to get charged 15 a month to play?"

Judging by the other alternative packages being offered more and more today, the $15/month translates into, "We won't make you pay for ingame content."

I'd rather pay $15/mo than get dinged for $2-$10 each time I want to do something or get something interesting.  I'll pay the monthly fee right up until they fail to give me my money's worth.  Then I walk.  Same as it every was.

[Hoax]

Have they said anything (again, no pvp = no caring so no I haven't read the FAQ or anything else) that makes you think they will not charge for expansions?  Have they promised three content addtions a year at no cost?

Not only do I have no idea what your $2-$10 figure is refering to, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you get nothing but balance/bug fixes for that $15/mo.  But I could be completely wrong...

[Dren]

Have they said anything (again, no pvp = no caring so no I haven't read the FAQ or anything else) that makes you think they will not charge for expansions?  Have they promised three content additions a year at no cost?

Not only do I have no idea what your $2-$10 figure is referring to, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you get nothing but balance/bug fixes for that $15/mo.  But I could be completely wrong...

Again, I don't care.  If I'm that hung up on the cost as opposed to getting free expansion type updates, I'm probably on my way out of the game.  If I'm so pleased with DDO that I'm not only willing to continue to pay $14.99 after the first month, I'll also pay another $39.99 for an expansion 6 months later, I'd say I'm coming out on top mainly because nothing has pleased me to that end yet.

If the game truly sucks, they get my box price and I quit before the first month is charged to me.  For me that is worth checking things out.  Only truly terrible Beta reviews will get me to not buy the box and even then I'll just wait a month to see what happens after the dust settles.

My $2-$10 figure is in response to some of the games out there that charge you for ingame items, etc.  Several existing and future games will be using this payment method.  The actual costs will most likely vary.  They are hypothetical.

[Nija]

Dren it sounds like you should stop buying boxes and pay fileplanet $6.50/month.

Participate in every beta that comes down their pipe. They get a lot of them. Beta = final in every single instance so far in mmorpg history. I don't see that changing anytime soon. If you don't enjoy the beta, you won't like the final either.

[Sky]

Imo beta > final in most games. Smaller population, higher exp gain.

[Hoax]

Have they said anything (again, no pvp = no caring so no I haven't read the FAQ or anything else) that makes you think they will not charge for expansions?  Have they promised three content additions a year at no cost?

Not only do I have no idea what your $2-$10 figure is referring to, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if you get nothing but balance/bug fixes for that $15/mo.  But I could be completely wrong...

Again, I don't care. If I'm that hung up on the cost as opposed to getting free expansion type updates, I'm probably on my way out of the game. If I'm so pleased with DDO that I'm not only willing to continue to pay $14.99 after the first month, I'll also pay another $39.99 for an expansion 6 months later, I'd say I'm coming out on top mainly because nothing has pleased me to that end yet.

If the game truly sucks, they get my box price and I quit before the first month is charged to me. For me that is worth checking things out. Only truly terrible Beta reviews will get me to not buy the box and even then I'll just wait a month to see what happens after the dust settles.

My $2-$10 figure is in response to some of the games out there that charge you for ingame items, etc. Several existing and future games will be using this payment method. The actual costs will most likely vary. They are hypothetical.

I was refering back to this exchange really.

More than a "is it worth 15 of fun a month" I'm also thinking "if I pay for this, what am I not going to get charged 15 a month to play?"

Judging by the other alternative packages being offered more and more today, the $15/month translates into, "We won't make you pay for ingame content."

I'd rather pay $15/mo than get dinged for $2-$10 each time I want to do something or get something interesting.  I'll pay the monthly fee right up until they fail to give me my money's worth.  Then I walk.  Same as it every was.

From your response I still feel that Numtini's question is quite valid.

[Dren]

I agree it is a valid question.  My response was basically, "You won't know if it is worth the subscription until you try it."

I guess I should have said that in the first place.  I will basically try it and drop it if it doesn't live up to a subscription based scenario.

They have a lot to live up to from the past games that are subscription based.  They have to know they will need to have a lot of content in for the release and then provide a ton more content on an ongoing basis or they'll lose subs very fast.  The Beta reports near release will be my guide towards buying at release or waiting until bugs and content are fixed.

[Signe]

Here's a new DDO movie.  Also, there the January Issue of PC Gamer is giving away 5K beta spots, in case anyone interested gets that magazine.

[Morfiend]

Does any one have a spare Beta account they dont want? My friend just got in beta, and we really want to try playing together. He is totally loving it. He said I can try on his account, but we really want to test the team aspect. Thanks.

[Signe]

Fileplanet is having another stress test giveaway thingy on 11 December, if anyone is still interested. 

http://www.fileplanet.com/promotions/ddo_stormreach/stresstest

[Megrim]

Does this "subscribing" thing imply me giving them... money?