Vanguard - From Brad to the catasses

[AOFanboi]

Because they dare to attract a market?

Catassers aren't a market, they are resource hogs (playing more than design estimates), they are selfish (seeing the game only from their p.o.v.), and they somehow manage to make developers dance to their flute, as others have pointed out, by being very vocal about how they want the game to change to make them spend even more of their miserable lives in it. Or make other players suffer the same time consumption they did, otherwise they might get envious that there are people out there with actual lives.

Because they dare to play the game they are interested and you, while playing that game, can't achieve as much?

Because they dare make the developers turn the game non-catassers started to play into something only fitting their playstyle.

The real problem is that a game like EQ1 comes on the market and is fun for a while, or for a certain subset of the gamer population.  And then when it is no longer interesting for a person or when a person isn't in the subset of gamers that likes it, they go the extra step of suddenly blaming the game company for catering to those other 500k players and not themselves.  As though any game on the market has an obligation to appeal directly to you and if it doesn't, the designer is an asshole.

Nice summary of why catassers (ie. the complainers) suck. So, do you suddenly agree with us?

[Rasix]

You want him on this board or not?  Make up your minds.

Eh, doesn't matter, sounds like he's gone anyway.

Who cares?  While I appreciate different viewpoints, I don't want to have to put up with some whiney, crotchsparrow that can't deal with a community that isn't all hugs, flowers and teddy bears and won't use the tools given to him for discussing issues on this board.

If you want to be a coddled, unique snowflake then there are boards out there for you.  Find them, and go tell Geldon "hi" while you're at it.

[HaemishM]

I didn't ask for him to come here.  :-D But if he's going to post, being a dick about the quote function isn't going to make him any friends here. Nor can he expect to have everyone agree with him, or everyone not to say things like "Smedley is a pigfucker" then he is deluded. There are other sites out there for that.

When you read on a site, and then post, you better be ready to deal with the site's eccentrities. Some sites won't allow cussing. Some will be all happy luvy-duvy. If he read this site and thought that, he was wrong.

[ajax34i]

Who cares?

Fair enough.

You and Haemish keep mentioning the quote function.  What jumped out at me was the commentaries he made about the quality of the site, I didn't even pay attention to this quote function you keep mentioning.  His is the typical "I quit" posts with reasons why, yours is the typical reaction when something hits close to home.

I don't see many reds posting anymore; there used to be quite a few on the old Waterthread, and it's what attracted me to these boards.  My board-browsing pastime - ruined.

[penfold]

This thread is so anti-catass it brings a tear to my eye. Its... beautiful.

Vanguard is aimed at a niche no one in the west is really going for at the moment and im sure there's a market out there for it.  There's more to masochism than whips and chains, Brad's just stumbled on to the punish-yourself-by-replacing-life-with-a-MMOG crowd. I'm sure there's even a subset of catasses who are so hardcore they move to Korea and live in Bangs playing MMOGs with infinite XP curves.

[HaemishM]

Who cares?

Fair enough.

You and Haemish keep mentioning the quote function.  What jumped out at me was the commentaries he made about the quality of the site, I didn't even pay attention to this quote function you keep mentioning.  His is the typical "I quit" posts with reasons why, yours is the typical reaction when something hits close to home.

His comments about the quality of the site are highly subjective, and in contradiction to the amount of other posters we have on the site who actually like the way it is. He doesn't have to read the site. No one does. I'm going to assume if they read the site enough to post, and not post that they hate the way the site is run, they like the way we do things around here. I happen to be proud of the uncensored honesty with which we discuss things here.

As for red names not posting anymore, most people, me included, don't like to post in places where they feel criticized. And we criticize devs. Again, that whole honesty thing. When a dev does something right, I'll applaud it. When they do something so obviously wrongheaded that I have less trouble imagining the quote came from an ignorant savage in the Congo than a seasoned game developer with access to market data I don't have, I will say so.

If the devs can't handle that, and quite obviously some of them can't, they can fuck off right back to the fanbois-infested sycophant havens that are their official boards. This is why no matter what I think of Raph or Lum or MahrinSkel or Calandryll's work, I respect them. They can take it when half the posters in a thread call them flaming cockmonkeys, without resorting to starting pages long flame threads a la The Good Dr. Smart. I have even less respect for the devs who read us, but don't have the courage to post because they don't want to deal with the bullshit.

[StGabe]

Nice spew of catass angst.  Are we over it now?  Seriously.

Catasses exist.  People who want the sorts of challenging, epic games that tend to attract catasses exist.  Games that involve catassery will exist.

Do not play them if you don't want to.  I have no interest in sports games.  You know what?  I simply do not play them.  And I somehow manage to do this without developing a huge complex about the game developers that are "wasting money" on these projects or yelling at all sports video game enthusiasts.

As far as hyperbole it threatens to become the sole content of this site.  And the zeal behind it threatens to prevent any interesting discussion from taking place as any opinions representing a minority opinion will simply be silenced before it can take root and have a say.

I am myself a red name fellow of sorts and I too came here initially because of other red names and an interest in discussing game stuff with colleagues and other mature individuals.  But the red name posts themselves seem increasingly rare or coy.  Hmm.  Really that surprising on a forum whose hyperbole regularly includes crucifying developers for daring to not fulfill every single wish of every individual here?

Gabe.

[HaemishM]

Now who is dealing in hyperbole?  :-D

Do not play them if you don't want to.  I have no interest in sports games.  You know what?  I simply do not play them.  And I somehow manage to do this without developing a huge complex about the game developers that are "wasting money" on these projects or yelling at all sports video game enthusiasts.

I don't play games I have no interest in. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about them, or shouldn't talk about them. I imagine McQuaid gets a keen kick out of all the discussion on his currently vapor game, because it keeps it in people's minds. Viral marketing, hype marketing, whatever you want to call it. Yes, we are part of the hype machine too.

We talk about things we are passionate about, in a passionate manner. Developers should want passionate players.

[StGabe]

Passion is great.

But it just gets in the way of having interesting conversations or making good arguments.  Appeal to emotions is behind most of the most bullshit arguments and political views we have these days.  Just look at your post.  Designers that don't have the "courage" to post here?  You're almost co-opting neocon vocab now (those "cowardly" terrorsts that strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up to make a point).  More like they don't have any reason to post on a forum that is nothing but "hyperbole".

I love discussing religion, for example.  So I go and sit in coffeeshops with folks of different religious and philosophical groundings and have nice measured conversations.  And I actually learn from that.  Now of course I could go out to where a bunch of militant pro-lifers are and start yelling at them about their views and have them yell back at me.  And that might even be fun in a certain sort of way.  It would certainly be passionate.

But I wouldn't learn jack that I didn't already know.  I wouldn't be having a discussion.  Whatever I told them it would basically translate to them as, "you're an asshole" and whatever they told me would basically translate into "you're going to hell".  And that's just what a lot of the discussions are on here.  "You're a catass."  "You're an asshat."  Whatever.

[Lum]

Whenever I read a flame about something I've worked on, I console myself that if they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to flame. It keeps me warm at night.

That being said there has been a significant nasty undercurrent here of late about how all game developers are raging douchebags who can't do anything right because they won't patronize our every whim. (Oh wait, not all - you guys like Guild Wars this week, I think. I'll check back next week.)  I'm used to it, because I've been reading MMG boards and specifically ranty MMG boards ever since I ran one. A lot of folks aren't, and get turned off by "TEH HATR3D". If you're cool with that, cool. But if you really are going to heap abuse on anyone who dares to say they actually like a game that the Groupthink has decreed is Badthought, then, well, enjoy one-sided conversations.

More on topic. You guys say you want originality in game design, and creative honesty. Well, McQuaid's being honest. He doesn't like the direction away from achiver-oriented gameplay we're seeing, and he wants to make a game he wants to play. (Remember, EQ was based in large part on a text MUD that McQuaid was a huge fan of.) If you don't like it, OK. But he's being original and he's being honest about the game he wants to make. Unoriginality would be making
"World of Vanguard".

And as for the rampaging hate; if you don't like MMGs don't play em. If you don't like the one I work on don't pay for em. That is, by far, the best way to reigster your "vote". Right now the marketplace is voting for World of Warcraft in huge impossible-to-ignore numbers. If you disagree with that, vote with your dollars on where you think the market should go. That's somewhat more effective -- and infinitely more adult -- than replying to this post with "you suck, romans in space, hurr hurr hurr".

[WayAbvPar]

Take a look through all the sections of the site. Scroll back through the past posts. There have been TONS of posts with reasoned debate, ideas, suggestions, critiques, etc. Haemish has written dozens of front page articles between here and Waterthread with good information (interspersed with entertaining hyperbole). Check out posts from people like Margalis or Xliren's Twin (who both happened to write some interesting posts recently- most people here contribute a nugget now and again). The content is here if you bother to look for it.

This particular thread is about one particular game from one particular designer that happens to strike a nerve with the majority of the users here (or at least the majority of the vocal posters). There isn't even a beta version of the game out to discuss, so we are left with A) the track record of the people involved, and B) the WORDS OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. Those who disagree with the design being ventured have gone on record (with varying degrees of passion or hyperbole), as have those who agree.

Feel free to join in the discussion here and elsewhere- that is what the site is all about. Or just continue to complain about HOW the other posters are conveying their opinions...eventually everyone will just assume you are trolling to get reactions and ignore you.

Edit- Lum snuck in while I was composing.

[Shockeye]

Keep in mind we're disputing that there's 250K catasses out there willing to pay for Brad's game. I don't question his right to make the game or the Vision he has. I question whether the Vision is valid anymore with all the other options out there.

I also question whether his corporate masters will buy into his Vision when they want WoW numbers.

[Lum]

Keep in mind we're disputing that there's 250K catasses out there willing to pay for Brad's game. I don't question his right to make the game or the Vision he has. I question whether the Vision is valid anymore with all the other options out there.

I also question whether his corporate masters will buy into his Vision when they want WoW numbers.

I don't disagree that it's a valid question (that model has no appeal for me personally, for example), but Microsoft isn't known for not doing competitive research.

[Shockeye]

Keep in mind we're disputing that there's 250K catasses out there willing to pay for Brad's game. I don't question his right to make the game or the Vision he has. I question whether the Vision is valid anymore with all the other options out there.

I also question whether his corporate masters will buy into his Vision when they want WoW numbers.

I don't disagree that it's a valid question (that model has no appeal for me personally, for example), but Microsoft isn't known for not doing competitive research.

Didn't they get their fill of not dominating the world of MMOs with Asheron's Call?

[ahoythematey]

Honestly, I myself am glad AC didn't get EQ numbers.  I would have had an even more frastrating/less fun time with it had there been even more assholes populating Dereth.  I could barely stand Eastham being overrun by the french as it was.

[Hoax]

Nobody is saying they dont want Gabe around, its not really much fun to rip into yet another EQ clone if nobody ever defends them.

The fact is that MMOG gamers esp the hardcore kind that congregate to msg boards to discuss MMOG's are pretty fucking sick of half-baked bad games based around what they see as horrible misconceptions of the notion of fun.  It was tolerable when there wasn't a MMOG being released every 4 months but now not so goddamn much.

Catass' are a niche, and perhaps people who dont enjoy any type of grinding are as well.  I tried to point out awhile back in the Developer's forum that I felt EvE Online should be an utopia due to there being no actual exp and a general lack of grind altogether due to it not being so much work to kit out a ship with top of the line gear and many paths to get that cash together along with a truly massive world tons of freedom and no instancing.  But unfortunately due to some admittedly severe shortcommings in the game's fun level I never got my point that perhaps the linear grind item+1 from foozle+1 is all my tired brain can handle after a 9hour day at work.  I think I want freedom because the concept of a truly open world with many less restrictions on player interaction with other PC's as well as the world SHOULD be what MMOG's are trying to create in my mind.

That is the closest point I'm willing to conceed to the idea that Catass gaming has any future.  That perhaps open ended true virtual worlds aren't what anyone myself included is really ready for or wants to play.  We complain about being led by the nose but without at least a few nudges down some kind of path we get confused and frustrated.  Honestly I had a point where'd it go...

Oh, Vangaurd, it sounds like shit how are we even debating this?  I mean basically the only thing that would sound like even more shit would be if somebody came out and said:  "We're going to design a game with twice as long and twice as slow a leveling/item whoring/guild leveling/character class change quest system as lineageII.  Because that is what you stupid fuckers want, because you all Love to never be able to accomplish anytihng without the maximum amount of work".  Thats not what "Achiever" gamers want, as the massive WoW sub numbers Lum pointed out indicated.  Sure they want to get loot+1 but they dont want to have to gather 60 people together for 9hours just to get a shot at getting one uber item for one person involved.

Thats just not fun.

Also I'm confused by Lum's comments, aren't you the one that pointed out that gamers are fucking retarded when it comes to MMOG's and refuse to realize the flaws in their first game experience?  Therefore EQ did irreperable damage to the MMOG community by creating a bunch of people that just dont realize that grinds+corp runs+flagging+aa+artifact levels+all of L2 are the fucking enemy of fun?  Instead they play, burn out, quit and clammour for the next game.  How many people here are unwittingly victims of that I wonder, myself definately included.  I have not really enjoyed a MMOG for more then 3 months since ShadowBane.  Why would I eat-up WoW at release and play it every day when I know that type of gameplay doesn't really work for me?  Did I really think that because it was Robot Jesus aka Blizzard that despite all signs, beta included pointed to EQ clone that it wouldn't be?  Nope.  But I gave them $80 and 3 months of my time and quit like I always do.

Shit long as post and I'm still not even sure I've gotten to where I meant to be going with this at the start...  I'll try to edit it down or add to it in a little bit, consider it work in progress for the moment.  Sorry guys.

[Evil Elvis]

Didn't they get their fill of not dominating the world of MMOs with Asheron's Call?

Maybe they'll actually advertise Vanguard.

[Samwise]

Oh, Vangaurd, it sounds like shit how are we even debating this?  I mean basically the only thing that would sound like even more shit would be if somebody came out and said:  "We're going to design a game with twice as long and twice as slow a leveling/item whoring/guild leveling/character class change quest system as lineageII.  Because that is what you stupid fuckers want, because you all Love to never be able to accomplish anytihng without the maximum amount of work".  Thats not what "Achiever" gamers want, as the massive WoW sub numbers Lum pointed out indicated.  Sure they want to get loot+1 but they dont want to have to gather 60 people together for 9hours just to get a shot at getting one uber item for one person involved.

Thats just not fun.

Good points, but you're missing one thing.  The more torturous the grind, the greater the perceived value of the carrot at the end.  The truly hardcore competitive achiever LIKES horrible grinds because they make his achievement that much rarer and make him feel that much better about it when he's done.  If the grind is too easy, anyone can do it, and he doesn't get to feel as special for having done it himself.

[Margalis]

There have been TONS of posts with reasoned debate, ideas, suggestions, critiques, etc. Haemish has written dozens of front page articles between here and Waterthread with good information (interspersed with entertaining hyperbole). Check out posts from people like Margalis or Xliren's Twin (who both happened to write some interesting posts recently- most people here contribute a nugget now and again). The content is here if you bother to look for it.

Since I am mentioned here, I will chime in. In a way I do agree with Gabe and Lum. For example the thread about the front page article a while ago about video games vs. movies. I was solidly on Gabe's side and honestly it really seemed like the other side was just spewing "teh hate" first and reaching out for weak justifications second.

There certainly is a sort of ultra-nerdy machismo that has grown here over the past few months. Developers are scared, or dumb, or incompetent, or pussies or what have you for X, Y and Z reason. It really hurts to read sites where people are like "I am looking to lurn about programming so I can make Diablo 3" and some of the analysis here borders on that level of absurd. It's funny that Gabe actually has a game industry job. I have worked on some game related projects and I know people in the industry - it isn't easy.

A lot of the "analysis" here falls back on "people are stupid" or "people are lazy" or "people are sheep" or some other bland explanation. Why do devs at EA work 80 hours a week? Because they are scared to stand up for themselves. Why do games cost so much to make? Because devs are stupid and can't grasp the obvious cost-saving techniques that a website writer can blog up. Why do devs work under the publisher system? Because they are giant pussies.

Those aren't really good explanations. At some point "teh hate" sort of turned from an in-joke, like someone is being imitated, into the actual modus operandi. I have absolutely zero problem with swearing, and making this about swearing or a turn of the phrase is a red-herring. When you get behind the hyperbole, the actual sentiments being expressed have become very simplistic and often wrong. The language being juvenile isn't an issue, but the thought behind the language is becoming more juvenile as well.

If you look at the problem of say creating games that will sell on a reasonable budget, there are some interesting fruitful discussions to be had there, but "grow a brain" isn't going to start one.

I do feel like the number of red names has gone down and the site has overall become more immature. It's quite silly that people who work or know about the industry are just dismissed out of hand.

Producing "teh hate" is carthartic but some more rigor would be appreciated. Otherwise what's going to happen is that this is going to become a site that just preaches to a small choir.

[Zane0]

I don't think anyone truly understands the MMO market.

Didn't some people estimate that the total subscription base in Europe was 250k, and get trumped pretty badly when WoW received 500k European beta signups?

I think the only things we know for certain about what makes one MMO more successful than another are:

1) Fairly Stable network code
2) Good first impressions in the first few months
3) Adequate, well "spaced" content
4) Known license/publicity

Anything else, such as a "vision" or a "focus" hasn't shown enough of a pattern.  EQ's focus is undoubtedly high level raiding at the moment, but it's still holding on to 300k subscribers, and I'll bet a lot of them are casuals.  CoH and WoW are both casual-ish, action-ish MMOs, but their subscription numbers are worlds apart.

I wouldn't presume that Vanguard won't get 250k.  It's got an established lead dev- he knows what he's doing at the basic level, and he's got a certain amount of reputation; that seems to count for a lot.

[Tale]

Right now the marketplace is voting for World of Warcraft in huge impossible-to-ignore numbers.

But they've had their WoW. In western nations, WoW attracted a large number of first-time MMOG players because it is a Blizzard/Warcraft game. They came from FPS or RTS games to WoW - I'd estimate about 2/3 of the WoW population is like that. Remember the trade show frenzy before WoW's launch where the interested people were reported to be mashing their attack button and circle-strafing around kobolds?

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels. It enabled those people to "get" MMOG progress concepts, reach level 60, learn to raid and spawn a whiner community. Now they are finding a lack of things to do at the high end, and levelling up another character is trivial. They are staying in WoW because they're hooked on MMOGs, but if somebody came along with a slightly more hardcore title like Vanguard and it was deemed to be a good game, they might be ripe for it.

WoW has had massive exposure in the gaming mainstream, such that the magazine reviewers finally "get" MMOGs. If you made another WoW with training wheels, you'd want an iPod-like level of mainstream exposure to pull in the MMOG newbies WoW missed (that will come, I'm sure). And you wouldn't hire Sigil for that - the original EQ team would be better at making a post-WoW destination for all these new veterans.

[edit] And Smed, maybe this is how you could reposition EQ2 until Vanguard, as the l33t challenge for bored WoW veterans. The current advertising just says "we're better than WoW" which is uninteresting and untrue. What is true is that EQ2 offers bigger mountains to catass, which might spark the interest of the new veterans if it was emphasised. Remember to hide Station Exchange in a dark corner first.

[Shockeye]

WoW is a MMORPG with training wheels. It enabled those people to "get" MMOG progress concepts, reach level 60, learn to raid and spawn a whiner community. Now they are finding a lack of things to do at the high end, and levelling up another character is trivial. They are staying in WoW because they're hooked on MMOGs, but if somebody came along with a slightly more hardcore title like Vanguard and it was deemed to be a good game, they might be ripe for it.

Interesting and something I had not considered. There's still the issue of debuffing a tree for harvesting wood, however...

[Rasix]

There's an easy explanation for all of the hate...

E3 week was raging douchebag week where we could all rail on developers and froth at the mouth like maniacs. Hell, I wrote (never finished) a piece titled "WoW Server Forums are completely fucking gay" but decided against going through with it because it was just too goddamn mean. It did have meaning and a direction, but I didn't think people would see through the introductory vitriol. 

The week afterwards people either still had their E3 avatars or booth babes.  Neither would produce a calming effect.

This week it's mullets for avatars. And we all know mullets are angry. The cut carries a certain attitude with it, and you must respect it.

Perhaps raging douchebag week in restrospect and the following avatar choices weren't the best decisions to keep the tone here open and inviting for our regular posters and especially the developers.  Getting swept up in the maelstrom of hate can be an easy thing to do.

Next week, kittens. 

Edit: Festivus is going to be a trying time here, isn't it?

[schild]

Lum, on "Raging Douchebag Week:"

I think you missed the point. If developers want to give us vapor and fluff, we'll aim a solid week of vitriol at them. And I'm sure you all are upset Marc Jacobs was featured on the frontpage. I know someone was because of a certain couple of links from a few places that showed up in the referral logs.

If Mythic doesn't completely fuck up Warhammer AND manage to make Imperator a compelling title - compelling enough that I purchase it (meaning, I make it through - let's say 2 weeks of the free month), I'll put myself on the frontpage during Raging Douchebag week next year. But as it stands, I have more faith in Bigfoot coming over and having a civilized conversation about suburban sprawl over a seafood dinner.

[schild]

Oh, and next year E3 won't be Raging Douchebag Week. We have something else planned.

It will be much better.

Raging Douchebag week will probably get moved to an even more appropriate week.

[HaemishM]

Producing "teh hate" is carthartic but some more rigor would be appreciated. Otherwise what's going to happen is that this is going to become a site that just preaches to a small choir.

I hate to break it to you, but we've always been a site preaching to a small choir. In the scheme of MMOG's and rant sites, even Lum's site was just preaching to a very small choir.

Teh hate is a joke and a style. Were I to meet most of these developers in person, I'd probably refrain from calling them pigfuckers, because that's not what polite society does. However, teh interweb isn't polite society. And McQuaid brings out the Raging Douchebag in me. I'm scarred. As for:

I love discussing religion, for example.  So I go and sit in coffeeshops with folks of different religious and philosophical groundings and have nice measured conversations.  And I actually learn from that.  Now of course I could go out to where a bunch of militant pro-lifers are and start yelling at them about their views and have them yell back at me.  And that might even be fun in a certain sort of way.  It would certainly be passionate.

This isn't a coffeshop, and sometimes, sitting around politely drinking our tea and crumpets accomplished absolutely nothing. This also isn't the raging firestorm that running up to a militant bunch of pro-lifers is either, because even in our most impassioned, we still have time to read the posts and think about our own posts. Both examples are the extremes, and teh interweb is somewhere in the middle. You can have reasoned discourse with passionate outbursts and still get to the heart of the matter. However, quiet, polite debate is called Palimentary Procedure, where everyone takes turns and that is a big bit of useless mental masturbation.

I consider this site, and my own writing "Anger Managment for Whiney Bitches."

I think the only things we know for certain about what makes one MMO more successful than another are:

1) Fairly Stable network code

Not really. Shit, WoW didn't have what I would call stable network code, and by some accounts, still doesn't it. The market has shown a tendency to put up with bad technical shit in return for some thing. But they won't do it for some no name game like Horizons, whereas they will for Star Wars Galaxies or Warcraft.

I'm not telling McQuaid he shouldn't make his game. If he listened to me, he'd probably be a fucking idiot. I'm expressing my opinion that creating Vanguard as he claims to be is probably not a good idea, based on what I know about the market. I'm also expressing the idea that he's fucking high if he believes that the market for that type of gameplay WITHOUT a license is as large as 500k. It wasn't even that large for EQ1. There aren't that many people that are going to bleed off into WoW for a game that is more grindy.

And as Way has said, the game isn't even in beta. We don't know what it's actually going to be like, all we know is what has been said and shown. It's ALL mental masturbation, even the stuff that glowingly fellates McQuaid, because WE DON'T KNOW. So we kvetch and we extrapolate, all in good fun.

Kittens, though. Next week is kittens and puppy dogs and flowers. For a preview, here's me getting mauled by a puppy.

[Lum]

I think you missed the point. If developers want to give us vapor and fluff, we'll aim a solid week of vitriol at them. And I'm sure you all are upset Marc Jacobs was featured on the frontpage. I know someone was because of a certain couple of links from a few places that showed up in the referral logs.

If I really cared that much whether or not you featured him on your front page, I would probably correct your spelling of his name at some point. Frankly, I'm just relieved no one saw fit to use an unflattering photo of me.

This isn't a coffeshop

No, actually I'd call this more of a loud, raucous sports bar. The "Other Place" is more of a coffee shop. With snarky latte.

So. Not mentioning any names. But there's some folks here who, when any MMG is mentioned - any - respond with some witty variation of "omgz you must be a complete witless retard to even give them any money". Well, the first time it may be funny. The second time, eh. The seventeenth time? Maybe a new hobby should be in your future.

What happens is then you get a culture of one-upmanship. (Oddly, here it's about making fun of people who play games, whereas at Corp it's more cut to the chase of making fun of people in general). People start to compete who can mock people who actually admit to enjoying MMGs the most. Which, again, if your aspiration is to have "Raging Douchebag Week" and "Tolstoyan Retard Thursday" and whatnot, is great. But to then turn around and say "Hey, people are wimps because they won't stand up to our heat"? Well, no. It's more that you've communicated, quite clearly, the conversation you want to have.

So from my perspective. And I'm probably really stupid for even bothering to open myself up to ridicule like this, but I'm currently on pain meds for a bad tooth, so I have plausible deniability.

I'm at E3, and trolling the various boards looking for reaction on our Warhammer announcement. Here we had this thread: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=3353.0  Most of the posts were various iterations of "lollerskates, this is going to suck so bad, because Mythic is making a game with space romans". The few folks who pointed out (a) Warhammer has a distinct paucity of Romans, in space or otherwise, and (b) it might be a bit early to judge a game that has about 15 minutes of development time devoted to it were shouted down. Because HA HA! ROME! IN SPACE! MYTHIC! IT'S GOING TO SUCK! THEY SUCK! THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING! HA HA!

I'll be honest. I felt pretty burnt. You have calluses built up about this stuff, from the Internet in general being really damned corrosive. But when you think maybe your company announces something pretty cool, and to have it laughed at out of spite, or a desire to be trendy? Well, it makes you not want to play ball on that particular playground any more.

So that's me. On one thread. And I'm just a data monkey at an MMG company - I don't actually make anything approaching decisions. Just happen to occasionally go to lunch with folks who do. Imagine how people who actually sink their soul and wallets into this stuff feel, reading TEH TRENDY HATRED.

So if you're wondering why there's less discussion lately, that might be a good starting point.

[schild]

This isn't a coffeshop

No, actually I'd call this more of a loud, raucous sports bar. The "Other Place" is more of a coffee shop. With snarky latte.

Not after the thread about E3 it isn't. Unless by snarky you mean 'ego.'

Edit: If you're talking about Grimwell, well, I'd say it's more of a cafe full of people with turtlenecks and big thick books and someone up on stage doing some sort of interpretive dance accompanied by a dude reading poetry while everyone else snaps their fingers.

Edit Again: Given the link from the super sekrit all-seeing eye place, I'm pretty sure some high-level devs got pretty pissed at Raging Douchebag Week. But I've no time to console people who don't have an inkling of what it was about. If anyone thinks we were pissing on their work or them as people, they have it all backwards. We're just pissing on teh state of the industry and the bullshit that is spewed on weeks like, oh, what a coincedence, E3. I mean did ANYONE WATCH G4? SERIOUSLY. Fuck.

[schild]

I'm at E3, and trolling the various boards looking for reaction on our Warhammer announcement. Here we had this thread: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=3353.0  Most of the posts were various iterations of "lollerskates, this is going to suck so bad, because Mythic is making a game with space romans". The few folks who pointed out (a) Warhammer has a distinct paucity of Romans, in space or otherwise, and (b) it might be a bit early to judge a game that has about 15 minutes of development time devoted to it were shouted down. Because HA HA! ROME! IN SPACE! MYTHIC! IT'S GOING TO SUCK! THEY SUCK! THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING! HA HA!

Is it turn-based? What makes it different from other MMOGs? Is it Warhammer at all? Or is it DAoC RVR in a Warhammer suit? Given the press release, why should we think differently? According to just about EVERYONE I've spoken too, Imperator is DAoC PvE and Warhammer, according to your employer, is DAoC RvR. That's not Warhammer. That's exactly what it was called. Not. Warhammer.

I'll be honest. I felt pretty burnt.

You felt burnt? How do you think the Warhammer fans felt? How do you think the Star Wars fans feel about SW:G? Seriously man. If someone isn't going to do a license justice, don't do it. The types of reactions you'll get will be: "HA HA! ROME! IN SPACE! MYTHIC! IT'S GOING TO SUCK! THEY SUCK! THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING! HA HA!"

You have calluses built up about this stuff, from the Internet in general being really damned corrosive. But when you think maybe your company announces something pretty cool, and to have it laughed at out of spite, or a desire to be trendy? Well, it makes you not want to play ball on that particular playground any more.

So that's me. On one thread. And I'm just a data monkey at an MMG company - I don't actually make anything approaching decisions. Just happen to occasionally go to lunch with folks who do. Imagine how people who actually sink their soul and wallets into this stuff feel, reading TEH TRENDY HATRED.

So if you're wondering why there's less discussion lately, that might be a good starting point.

Nothing to do with Trendy. I get pissed off when people who shant be messing with a beloved license start messing with it. Warhammer is a beloved license and it's been a curse to anyone who tried to make it. I mean, let's be honest, in the scope of RTS games, Dawn of War was pretty goddamn shitty. But every other Warhammer game has been an abortion. And it's because GW simply won't let a company make WARHAMMER on a computer. Warhammer in Everquest Clothing (or DAoC clothing as it would be) leaves us with only one response.

If I (or anyone else probably) wanted to have trendy hatred, we'd stir shit up at IGN or something. Or frontpaged an entire article about just how stupid the entire situation is. I understand sticking up for your coworkers. I respect game devs of all sorts. They pour blood, sweat and tears into their shit and people like us tear it apart after playing it for two hours. But really, we've seen it all before and expect nothing revolutionary. Particularly not from a level-based MMOG. Really, what sort of knee-jerk response did you expect? E3 is all about knee-jerk. Of ALL people, you know better.

[schild]

BTW, Definately kittens next week. I'm just not feeling comic book guy.

[chinslim]

I'm at E3, and trolling the various boards looking for reaction on our Warhammer announcement. Here we had this thread: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=3353.0  Most of the posts were various iterations of "lollerskates, this is going to suck so bad, because Mythic is making a game with space romans". The few folks who pointed out (a) Warhammer has a distinct paucity of Romans, in space or otherwise, and (b) it might be a bit early to judge a game that has about 15 minutes of development time devoted to it were shouted down. Because HA HA! ROME! IN SPACE! MYTHIC! IT'S GOING TO SUCK! THEY SUCK! THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING! HA HA!

I'll be honest. I felt pretty burnt. You have calluses built up about this stuff, from the Internet in general being really damned corrosive. But when you think maybe your company announces something pretty cool, and to have it laughed at out of spite, or a desire to be trendy? Well, it makes you not want to play ball on that particular playground any more.

So that's me. On one thread. And I'm just a data monkey at an MMG company - I don't actually make anything approaching decisions. Just happen to occasionally go to lunch with folks who do. Imagine how people who actually sink their soul and wallets into this stuff feel, reading TEH TRENDY HATRED.

So if you're wondering why there's less discussion lately, that might be a good starting point.

Some other message in this thread theorized what makes for a successful MMO, and I think the one about having the good initial buzz on beta/release is probably the most important.  If you think you can ignore the internets and teh trendy hatred - you can't...like pro athletes who can't ignore the media or risk having their reputations tarnished. 

You should be more worried that no one's really taking about DAOC/Imperator/Warhammer around here.

[Trippy]

Nothing to do with Trendy. I get pissed off when people who shant be messing with a beloved license start messing with it. Warhammer is a beloved license and it's been a curse to anyone who tried to make it. I mean, let's be honest, in the scope of RTS games, Dawn of War was pretty goddamn shitty. But every other Warhammer game has been an abortion. And it's because GW simply won't let a company make WARHAMMER on a computer. Warhammer in Everquest Clothing (or DAoC clothing as it would be) leaves us with only one response.

I don't agree. I really enjoyed Warhammmer 40,000: Chaos Gate which was basically WH 40K meets X-COM (same combat system). Space Hulk was fun as well though very difficult (even if you had perfect overwatch and firing lines setup inevitably your gun would jam/overheat at the crucial moment and it was bye bye Space Marine). I still remember the intro "movie" to that game where that one Genestealer that's hiding jumps out and kills the Space Marine that was otherwise kicking ass. Dawn of War wasn't very deep but it was well executed and I found it fun to play and thought it captured the spirit and style of the miniature game even though it was an RTS.

[ajax34i]

If someone isn't going to do a license justice, don't do it.

1.  Nobody starts a project thinking they won't succeed.  
2.  A lot of people need encouragement while they're still working on their project.

You're bashing Brad McQuaid continuously.  EQ1 may have been a bad game, and advertising a MMO's game mechanics only (it's what he's doing with Vanguard) instead of advertising the fun of it, or the expansiveness and beauty of the world, or the quests, or anything that would touch people's imagination is pretty bad in my opinion too.  But you're not criticizing his game as much as you're bashing him, and his reputation in your eyes.

Now, I don't know the guy, I don't care.  But it seems you're starting the same trend with Mythic.  A game can't succeed because it's Mythic making it.  And you're doing it to other people or other dev house names.  It's like the opposite of fanboism, instead of defending something because it's made by Blizzard, you're bashing everything because it's made by so-and-so.  

You may not feel this way but a lot of the discussions here go like that.

Waterthread used to be, I got the impression, a private club for devs and other game industry people to just hang out and chat.  Pretty cool for me, I'm a nobody, but through this board, a nobody with access to various experts discussing the makings of games.  Like listening in on a conversation between composers about classical music.

You've kind of driven them away.  It's your boards, and you can do whatever you want, and they're free, so I have no right to demand anything or even criticize; it's your show.  But I would have liked to continue being able to see devs post and discuss things, and see those discussions being commented on by you guys (obviously connoiseurs) and average people like me.

You're defending your past posts and the site, and that's understandable.  But the accusations brought up are a side issue, I think.  Less devs posting has been brought up by others (thought it was just me), and that's the main issue, I think.  Do you guys plan to do anything to entice more devs to discuss things here?  To feel comfortable discussing things here in a non-hyped, non-PR way?  That would just rock, if this site provided that again.

[Rasix]

Waterthread used to be, I got the impression, a private club for devs and other game industry people to just hang out and chat.

I'm staying way the hell out of all of this but this comment struck me as funny.

You really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

[schild]

I firmly believe Mythic is capable of making a solid game, but when they describe their products as "the best RvR game ever" - well, to be honest warning lights go off. And don't stop. Warhammer is turnbased RvR if you want to label it as such. It's not a game about leveling and won't necessarily transform into a well-crafted MMOG. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anyone with that license who wanted to make it a real-time MMOG and I know it's a big deal to Mythic. It's a big license. But with great power...blah blah blah. It's a situation I wouldn't want myself to be in - transform the license into something that isn't quite what the real deal is (read: Star Wars, though it's an extreme) or do something new with it. Given the stagnant state of MMOGs (which is why we're trying to cover a lot more than just online games here now), I have a feeling Warhammer is going to be more of the former rather than the latter. If it were simply an MMOG based in the Warhammer world (though 40k would be better for this since there's already way too many medieval games), and was admittedly such, I'd give credit where credit is due. But it doesn't seem like that.

As for bashing Brad McQuaid, I'm done with that. I need to play his game to see if he comes off as delusional as he seems. Until I do that, I'm just going to let his fantasyworld be. What he's said seems entirely too farfetched for a backer like Microsoft to fund, but we'll see.

Mythic, on the other hand, doesn't have a backer like Microsoft. They saw what happened when SW:G turned out how it did, and they have to tread very lightly to not have another one of those on their hands.

Personally? I want someone to make a MMOTBS based on any number of good table-top properties. What I don't want is to enter Warhammer Online or <insert other MMOG here> and make another goddamn human/halfling/orc/whatever warrior/finger-wiggler/thief and wander into a newbie zone and learn how to level up. I don't want to level up at all, unless i'm leveling up a platoon of soldiers from "swordsman" to "Champion Knight" all Fire Emblem style.

The milk went sour years ago. I'll be the first to admit that all these little indy online gaming sites have been retreading all the same old shit for years now, and lately we haven't even tried to say it in new and interesting ways. Short of a couple interesting points brought up in some of Haemish's writings, if it weren't for my love of the IDEA of a virtual world (let alone finding a good one that isn't UO) - there's a good chance I'd have no problem abandoning the genre completely. I am Jack's Nagging Need for Escapism.

Edit: Right up there, above this post, Rasix is very right.