Vanguard - From Brad to the catasses

[schild]

I don't agree. I really enjoyed Warhammmer 40,000: Chaos Gate which was basically WH 40K meets X-COM (same combat system). Space Hulk was fun as well though very difficult (even if you had perfect overwatch and firing lines setup inevitably your gun would jam/overheat at the crucial moment and it was bye bye Space Marine). I still remember the intro "movie" to that game where that one Genestealer that's hiding jumps out and kills the Space Marine that was otherwise kicking ass. Dawn of War wasn't very deep but it was well executed and I found it fun to play and thought it captured the spirit and style of the miniature game even though it was an RTS.

Forgot about Space Hulk. And I just saw an old copy today at work. Point conceded (but not on Dawn of War - I stand by my opinion of that, it NEVER for a moment felt like Warhammer except when I was "painting" my army).

[Velorath]

I understand where you're coming from Lum, and I do kinda feel bad for the people there who are passionate about what they're doing who see their work dismissed in a fit of laughter.  That being said, I do think Mythic is a victim of a reputation they earned.  If NCSoft had picked up the rights to Warhammer I don't think that there would have been so much ridicule, but Mythic's only MMO at the moment has been considered by many to have been broken since TOA with various other serious issues going back before that.  DAOC was in fact the first MMO I really got a chance to play but balance issues were a problem for me and TOA finally drove me away.  Imperator was announced close to 3 years ago, and until recently one of the only things that was revealed about the game was the Romans in Space concept which is a large part of the reason people have latched onto that.

Now I'm not a Warhammer fan, but if it had been announced that Mythic had gotten the rights to do a Shadowrun MMO I'd be sobbing in a corner right now because I don't have any reason to have faith in them to do justice to the license.  I'd be afraid of seeing Cyberware pushed back to an expansion years after the game is released.  I'd be afraid of Street Samurai being overpowered one month, and Deckers overpowered the next.  I'd be afraid of the game being vaporware after hearing nothing new of substance about the game for the next several years following it's announcement.

Blizzard has set the bar for mass appeal.  NCSoft has become a model for how a company should approach the market with games catering to different genres, and playstyles, and trying a non-subscription based MMO like GW.  If Mythic wants to get people excited about their upcoming games, they have an uphill battle trying to convince people that they can adapt to the changes in the market that have occured since DAOC was released, but so far it just sounds like business as usual to a lot of us.  I really do hope that Mythic can prove us wrong though.


Edit:  Now Funcom is another company I don't have a particularly great amount of faith in, and they recently announced that they're making a Conan MMO (and I happen to be a big fan of Conan).  In the weeks that followed they released a lot of info about what they want to do with the game, the combat system, what makes it different from other MMO's and all that, and they convinced me to at least give them the benefit of the doubt.  That's the kind of thing I'd like to see coming from Mythic, or really anyone making an MMO.  We know a lot of the stuff that's promised won't make it into the game, but it might just actually get us excited about the game.

[Trippy]

And as the design of EQ1 went on, every time a challenge was found and defeated by the uber catasses, it was changed to be HARDER, to give those whiny fucksticks more of a challenge, thus dangling the carrot ever farther from people like myself and most of my guild who didn't spend 8 hours on the game every single night. But since we couldn't really opt out of doing that content (as a guild leader, I certainly couldn't just tell my guild "We can't do these type of encounters" because part of the reason you have a guild is to be able to do things greater than you could do alone). And as Kunark got released, the new content outside of raids and other catasstastic activities was made harder to compensate for the uber catasses who had all the best gear. That made leveling to get that first carrot (the dragons) EVEN HARDER, all to cater to a playstyle that 1% of the population actually followed.

Another problem with games that reward the catasses is that if the game has valuable limited shared resources, inevitably the catasses will try to monopolize those resources and the world devolves into a Machiavellian/Lord of the Flies style "Might makes right" sort of place unless there are external factors that prevent this from happening. On my EQ server we got lucky in that our lead GM (who later got reassigned to the Legends server) essentially mandated that the top guilds needed to get along and so we ended up with a rotation list for the main dragons (mandated by the GM even though it wasn't official Verant/SOE policy), a sign up calendar for Planes raids and a sign up list for the last step of the Cleric epic (which remarkably everybody followed). Compared to the horror stories I would read about other servers ours was a relatively civilized place, though of course we still had lots of conflicts.

MMORPG designers have learned that instancing content is one way to solve many of these problems without needing the kind of babysitting/GM attention my EQ server got, though Blizzard seems to have forgotten this and decided to come out with two outdoor raid encounters which of course instantly turned into total chaos, oops. Sigil, however, seems set on bucking this trend:

4. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

(This applies to a great many things, but in general to the recent reactionary trend to respond to traditional MMOG mechanics that have had some problems by completely removing them as opposed to fixing them. Travel is tedious? Remove travel! People are camping and ninja looting and being rotten to each other in a dungeon? Remove the other people! (Instancing). Sigil, rather, is intent on fixing and tweaking traditional MUD/MMOG mechanics that have existed for so long, not throwing them out).

It'll be interesting to see if Sigil can figure out how to solve these problems without instancing.

[penfold]

I don't agree. I really enjoyed Warhammmer 40,000: Chaos Gate which was basically WH 40K meets X-COM (same combat system). Space Hulk was fun as well though very difficult (even if you had perfect overwatch and firing lines setup inevitably your gun would jam/overheat at the crucial moment and it was bye bye Space Marine). I still remember the intro "movie" to that game where that one Genestealer that's hiding jumps out and kills the Space Marine that was otherwise kicking ass. Dawn of War wasn't very deep but it was well executed and I found it fun to play and thought it captured the spirit and style of the miniature game even though it was an RTS.

Forgot about Space Hulk. And I just saw an old copy today at work. Point conceded (but not on Dawn of War - I stand by my opinion of that, it NEVER for a moment felt like Warhammer except when I was "painting" my army).

I love DOW and havent stopped playing it and mods since release. Ive also spent considerable time making DOW maps specifically my and my buddies playstyle (pm if you want to test my 1v1, 1 vs multiple AI, 2 vs multiple AI maps)  for I love Warhammer, I own a considerable percentage of GWs non game product line. I played EQ, AO and play WOW, I ran a raiding guild in EQ, a small guild in AO and a guild in WOW.




You'd think I'd be excited about a Warhammer MMOG, but all it takes is a few lines about what the game might be and i realise yet again, my love for either the IP, or my love of PVP/RVR, raiding and instances is going to be completley frustrated by my complete lack of tolerance for pointless levelling. WOW was ruined by it, I'm 52 and virtually the entire endgame is on hold for my guild due to me playing the only tank and not wanting to grind to 60, we are now waiting on new joiners to get their tanks to 60, and I've even given out my account details to the guild so anyone with spare time can level up my tank.

Ive killed 1000s of mobs, ive gathered mountains of bones, ears, trinkets, fetishes, pelts, skins and other assorted bits from mobs, I have a pile of boss heads the size of Wales, i dont want to killl 1000s more mobs, or collect another 800 skins, or add even more boss heads to the pile.  Whats wrong with killing 100s more mobs, and gathering just 80 skins etc? its not as if the game mechanics are so complicated I need 1000% more time spent learning them.

Its a cheap, shabby, totally transparent mechanism for retaining subscriptions, and when you hit a gameplay decision thats entirely based around profit and retention thats stopping my own personal enjoyment of MMOGs then it will raise my ire and result in a few crappy, bitter, whiney posts. Accountants should have no say in long term gameplay decisions.

[tazelbain]

Lol Lum.
So we're not allowed to use Mythic's past performance with DAoC as an indication of how Mythic while handle WO.
So we're not allowed to use Gameworkshop's past performance with WO as an indication of Gamesworkshop will hamstring Mythic attempt.
We should just take hype at face value.
It seems to me that Mythic use to have mucho credit in the community, but over time Mythic has burned through most of it.

I think you ( Mythic ) should be proud that you haven't earned our undying hatred like EA and SOE have. That's no small accomplishment.   If you want your credibility back your gonna have earn it, that's if you really care about what we think which I doubt.  You're just mad some called your baby ugly.

[El Gallo]

I think that there is some truth in the claims that this place has become a bit of an echo chamber.  [rose lense] back in the old days, there was a lot more diversity as far as types of players posting and we got better discussions as a result [/rose lense].  Because almost everyone left has the same views, we've gotten very lazy in defending or even intelligibly articulating them.  "HURR HURR CATASS LOL!!111!" passes for an argument.  Hell, in half the threads, it's the most cogent argument you'll find.  I think the St Gabe lynching is a good example.  He had potential to be a good poster, but because he wasn't regurgitating the same shit the rest of us have been regurgitating for years, he was driven out  Now, this isn't a debating society, and I like teh hate as much (more) than the next guy but we are very much at risk of degenerating into a circlejerk board.

[Shockeye]

I think that there is some truth in the claims that this place has become a bit of an echo chamber.  [rose lense] back in the old days, there was a lot more diversity as far as types of players posting and we got better discussions as a result [/rose lense].  Because almost everyone left has the same views, we've gotten very lazy in defending or even intelligibly articulating them.  "HURR HURR CATASS LOL!!111!" passes for an argument.  Hell, in half the threads, it's the most cogent argument you'll find.  I think the St Gabe lynching is a good example.  He had potential to be a good poster, but because he wasn't regurgitating the same shit the rest of us have been regurgitating for years, he was driven out  Now, this isn't a debating society, and I like teh hate as much (more) than the next guy but we are very much at risk of degenerating into a circlejerk board.

My problem with Gabe involved using the quote function. That's it. I appreciate different viewpoints. Hell, I even defended you know who.

[schild]

It's true. The Gabe thing really came down to not using the board properly. If he wants to do that, he should just post at Gaia Online.

As far as degenerating into a circle jerk board, well, MMOGs seem all to keen on fulfilling that prophecy. We're a couple years away - at this rate - from having to purchase ESPN World of Warcraft 2006 just for roster updates. MMOGs have become about as stale a genre as a genre can become. It's also the youngest genre around. It's fucking depressing, man.

[WayAbvPar]

I take a bit of offense to the suggestion or impression that this board is all about teh hate, all the time. Take a look around- there are games that get praised and played all over the place. Even MMOGs!

Like I said before, this particular developer is tooting his own horn for re-creating game mechanics that caused many of us to quit playing his first game in disgust. No real surprise that there is some wailing and gnashing of teeth. If the game doesn't suck, you can be assured that many of those ranting now will be playing, and talking about how much fun they are having. Not gonna hold my breath, but anything is possible...

As for Mythic- I was the biggest fanboi in the world when DAOC first came out. Some decisions that were made early on made it obvious that they were more interested in extending subscription times than letting friends group and play together. Between that and the lengthy PvE grind before becoming RvR-useful (not to mention that the realm I chose to play was maybe half-finished at release), I gave up on the game. Then Imperator was announced- with no PvP (the one thing I thought Mythic got mostly right with DAOC). Plus the source material and background was, shall we say, unexpected. Since the announcement, there has been very little new information (at least that I have seen on my forays through the Web), so first impressions last.

On to the Warhammer announcement- I am willing to wait and see what they do with it (as I said in the thread Lum linked to). I was never a WH player, so I don't have any preconceived notions of what I want from the license (contrast that with WoW- I never played the Warcraft games because I hate the RTS genre, so I was utterly uninterested in a MMOG based on them. Strangely, I was convinced to try it out, and am still a subscriber- because the game is fun and caters to my casual playstyle nicely). Judging from what I consider Mythic's spotty track record, I don't hold out a lot of hope for WH. However, if it an interesting and compelling game, I will obviously give it a try.

All we have to judge these titles by is the reputation and previous works of the publishers. It is like movie directors in that way- I have hated everything John Woo has done in America (never saw any of his Hong Kong works). When I see 'A John Woo film' attached to a trailer, my first impression is that I will hate the movie. However, if the movie comes out to rave reviews, I will likely check it out (I am just dumb like that, I guess).

Surprise me. Rise above what has come before. Make something interesting, compelling, and NEW. I love to play good games. Give me one.

[CmdrSlack]

Edit: If you're talking about Grimwell, well, I'd say it's more of a cafe full of people with turtlenecks and big thick books and someone up on stage doing some sort of interpretive dance accompanied by a dude reading poetry while everyone else snaps their fingers.

I am really trying to figure out where you're going with this one, but whatever. 

I've noticed a lot more noise vs signal here lately, and I think the theme weeks are part of it.  The "echo chamber" comments are pretty right on, but I think every forum community tends to end up that way when you consider group dynamics.  I think the themed weeks or "everyone has avatar style x" kind of stuff fosters the "me-too" responses that end up in any group that discusses the same topics all the time.  It's just here the "me-too" attitude is encouraged more than normal, it seems.  That's fine and all, because certainly there is still good discussion on games here on a thread-by-thread basis.  It's now just becoming more  post-by-post (hence the above signal--noise comment) than thread-by-thread.

Oh well, I have a turtleneck to wash.   :-D

[HaemishM]

Some of you people complaining about our "dev-bashing" haven't been paying fucking attention.

Tabula Rasa gets much fanboi luv from schild, or at least it did until he learned it probably isn't going to be twitch. Most of us around here are at least mildly interested in Auto Assault, once it got past the "looks like ugly-ass hot wheels cars" stage. My personal review of Starport, an indy MMO was a pretty glowing review, as I have little to say that is bad about the game. In almost every single article I've personally written discussing the business side of MMOG's or hell, even the way I think the industry needs to move in order to stop regurgitating shitty concepts, I PRAISE MYTHIC because they were Indy, they didn't rely on publisher teat and they used an off-the-shelf graphic engine. Many of us like Guild Wars. I constantly praise NCSoft because they seem to know how to create a stable of different MMOG's that would make me want to pay one fee to play all their games. I like WoW and CoH and praise them for what they did right, and damn them for what they do wrong. Most of our game reviews are actually pretty positive reviews, but with honest criticism. I think that's pretty fucking unique in the world of game reviews. But when something fucking sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons, like this game, you goddamn right it'll get some hate.

If you think it's all about "teh hate," you haven't been paying enough attention.

As for Mythic and Warhammer, as a longtime fan of the GW games (and hater of the GW business practices), I was severly disappointed that Mythic was chosen for the Warhammer license, because I don't think it's in their comfort zone. It's like hearing that the Cubs made a big trade for a great starting pitcher, something they already have a good bit of, but traded away their best bullpen guy to get him; the Cubs need bullpen guys more than starters. They'd be weakening an already weak area to strengthen an already strong area, instead of strengthening their weak areas. And every announcement out of Mythic has, to me, really been disappointing. Imperator will have no PVP, the strength of DAoC, and a setting that elicits no emotional reaction whatsoever. That means you have to really impress me with stuff to get me to care. Then they pay for a license that really doesn't fit them. Had Mythic announced they were doing a PVP-only game set in the 40k universe, ok, I'd be for that. Mythic can do some good PVP, especially if there aren't levels involved. I praise the level 20-24 battlegrounds CONSTANTLY, because they were some of the most fun PVP I've ever played. But WHO isn't going to be that, or it won't be mainly that. It will be a level-based PVE grind with some PVP on it, JUST LIKE DAOC. How am I not to judge that as something I don't need or want?

What exactly do you expect us to do to get more devs to post? Most of them are busy people. This board doesn't really serve their interests, and won't. Ever. I'd rather they post at a game developer's board where they can talk to each other about how to unfuck the industry. We invite any dev reading this to post. ANY OF YOU, EVEN THE ONES WE HATE. Like McQuaid. He reads this site. People at Sigil read this site. People at SOE read this site. We WANT them to post, but we aren't going to kiss their fucking asses to get them to do it. And if they act like a cockmonkey, or like MORE of a cockmonkey than anyone else on the board (see SirBruce or Serek Dmart), they will get it in return. They aren't going to be treated special by me because they are a developer, they'll just get more questions.

We're not going to coddle developers. We're not going to fellate them, unless they do something worthy of it. You want that, go to P2P.net, or some other place that tries to suck up to developers for exclusives or beta slots or whatever. Go to Gamespy. I've tried to get an interview with Brad McQuaid, and he has refused. He doesn't want to give one, that's fine.

St. Gabe, use the quote function. You're free to disagree with me anytime you want, but don't expect me not to disagree with your disagreement. That's silly. I don't expect you to alter your writing style when replying to me, but I do expect you not to make your posts hurt my eyes. I see you've gotten over the italics thing.

If you can't post your minority opinion and take the criticism of the majority, well yes, you're minority opinion will be silenced. But it isn't the majority's fault for disagreeing with you, or calling you an idiot. Your voice isn't being taken away, it is being self-censored.

[Hoax]

I will only analyze my own posting in the thread Lum quoted...

After a bad joke about Mythic possibly cutting more races from WO then Horizon's had cut at release, that nobody laughed at   I had this to say:

"WH fantasy does not convert to a vanilla EQ clone at all, in fact neither game does.  There is only one part of the GW lines that deserves (in fact BEGS) for a [traditional] MMOG and that is Inquisitor.  *sigh*"

On Mythic:  Many people here cut their teeth on DAOC and therefore I find this board has a very large segment of people who will say pretty nice things about it compared to other places I've posted in the past.  But the fact is Nobody including Gabe has ever said "TOA was a good expansion" nobody, ever, that I've seen.  

Velorath makes a damn good point about Funcom and Age of Legend, they have told us not only that they are making a game with an established IP (who isn't?) but also that it isn't going to be the same old same old.  

There is no faith left in the avg. MMOG gamer we've been promised bigger, better and different and gotten clone after clone after clone with a new paint job of Shiney.  So it should be understandable and expected that a press release that offers no information about why a game will be bigger, better or different is met with heckling and "L0L1 Romans In SpAcE!?!??".

[CmdrSlack]

There is no faith left in the avg. MMOG gamer we've been promised bigger, better and different and gotten clone after clone after clone with a new paint job of Shiney.  So it should be understandable and expected that a press release that offers no information about why a game will be bigger, better and different shouldn't be met with heckling.

I don't really think you can call the people who read these forums (and actively post, can't really say about lurkers, eh?) or any other forums like Corp or Grimwell or TN or wherever "average" gamers by any means.  I think the fact that some of us are driven to near histrionics by the games industry sort of makes "us" decidedly non-average.

[schild]

We're a bunch of hardcore gamers. But we're more across the spectrum than your average power-guilding WoW Junkie. At least I'd like to think so. I know every week all of my consoles, sometimes even the NGage (waiting for Rifts), gets play. MMOG's are maybe 10% of the time spent playing games. But I still own nearly Every. Single. One. (Somewhere).

[slog]

Some of you people complaining about our "dev-bashing" haven't been paying fucking attention.

Tabula Rasa gets much fanboi luv from schild, or at least it did until he learned it probably isn't going to be twitch. Most of us around here are at least mildly interested in Auto Assault, once it got past the "looks like ugly-ass hot wheels cars" stage. My personal review of Starport, an indy MMO was a pretty glowing review, as I have little to say that is bad about the game. In almost every single article I've personally written discussing the business side of MMOG's or hell, even the way I think the industry needs to move in order to stop regurgitating shitty concepts, I PRAISE MYTHIC because they were Indy, they didn't rely on publisher teat and they used an off-the-shelf graphic engine. Many of us like Guild Wars. I constantly praise NCSoft because they seem to know how to create a stable of different MMOG's that would make me want to pay one fee to play all their games. I like WoW and CoH and praise them for what they did right, and damn them for what they do wrong. Most of our game reviews are actually pretty positive reviews, but with honest criticism. I think that's pretty fucking unique in the world of game reviews. But when something fucking sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons, like this game, you goddamn right it'll get some hate.

If you think it's all about "teh hate," you haven't been paying enough attention.

As for Mythic and Warhammer, as a longtime fan of the GW games (and hater of the GW business practices), I was severly disappointed that Mythic was chosen for the Warhammer license, because I don't think it's in their comfort zone. It's like hearing that the Cubs made a big trade for a great starting pitcher, something they already have a good bit of, but traded away their best bullpen guy to get him; the Cubs need bullpen guys more than starters. They'd be weakening an already weak area to strengthen an already strong area, instead of strengthening their weak areas. And every announcement out of Mythic has, to me, really been disappointing. Imperator will have no PVP, the strength of DAoC, and a setting that elicits no emotional reaction whatsoever. That means you have to really impress me with stuff to get me to care. Then they pay for a license that really doesn't fit them. Had Mythic announced they were doing a PVP-only game set in the 40k universe, ok, I'd be for that. Mythic can do some good PVP, especially if there aren't levels involved. I praise the level 20-24 battlegrounds CONSTANTLY, because they were some of the most fun PVP I've ever played. But WHO isn't going to be that, or it won't be mainly that. It will be a level-based PVE grind with some PVP on it, JUST LIKE DAOC. How am I not to judge that as something I don't need or want?

What exactly do you expect us to do to get more devs to post? Most of them are busy people. This board doesn't really serve their interests, and won't. Ever. I'd rather they post at a game developer's board where they can talk to each other about how to unfuck the industry. We invite any dev reading this to post. ANY OF YOU, EVEN THE ONES WE HATE. Like McQuaid. He reads this site. People at Sigil read this site. People at SOE read this site. We WANT them to post, but we aren't going to kiss their fucking asses to get them to do it. And if they act like a cockmonkey, or like MORE of a cockmonkey than anyone else on the board (see SirBruce or Serek Dmart), they will get it in return. They aren't going to be treated special by me because they are a developer, they'll just get more questions.

We're not going to coddle developers. We're not going to fellate them, unless they do something worthy of it. You want that, go to P2P.net, or some other place that tries to suck up to developers for exclusives or beta slots or whatever. Go to Gamespy. I've tried to get an interview with Brad McQuaid, and he has refused. He doesn't want to give one, that's fine.

St. Gabe, use the quote function. You're free to disagree with me anytime you want, but don't expect me not to disagree with your disagreement. That's silly. I don't expect you to alter your writing style when replying to me, but I do expect you not to make your posts hurt my eyes. I see you've gotten over the italics thing.

If you can't post your minority opinion and take the criticism of the majority, well yes, you're minority opinion will be silenced. But it isn't the majority's fault for disagreeing with you, or calling you an idiot. Your voice isn't being taken away, it is being self-censored.

You don't get it.

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.  

[schild]

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.

That word does not mean what you think it means.

[slog]

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.

That word does not mean what you think it means.

Also, avoiding the issue doesn't help.

Side Note:  I thought things really started going downhill here when you got that intern job, stated posted stuff like "I make video games", and then quit a few weeks later...

[CmdrSlack]

We're a bunch of hardcore gamers. But we're more across the spectrum than your average power-guilding WoW Junkie. At least I'd like to think so. I know every week all of my consoles, sometimes even the NGage (waiting for Rifts), gets play. MMOG's are maybe 10% of the time spent playing games. But I still own nearly Every. Single. One. (Somewhere).

Right, but what average gamer owns every console ever?  Hell, I have a PS2 and Xbox and I think I'm "excessive."  Granted, I won't buy the PSP till the price point drops, but that's me being cheap.  Well, that and I don't see where and when I'd use it seeing as how I have a home office and don't really fly all that much.

[Pococurante]

Since I am mentioned here, I will chime in. In a way I do agree with Gabe and Lum.

f13 has definitely gotten more rabid.  It's one of the reasons I take a vacation every now and then.

But then I mostly hang in the Politics forum so my definition of rabid might be suspect.  :-D

[Hoax]

I still dont see how the argument that forums about MMOG's have gotten more "rabid" due to MMOG's failing to deliver anything innovative or interesting.  Why should we be pleased that we're getting more EQ clones?  I just fail to see what there is to be happy about.  Almost every game that tries to be different cuts all the good stuff from release or is just vaporware the stuff that does come out in the same old same old. 

Every once and awhile there is a fanboi thread about Hellgate, Conan, Tabula Rasa whatever.  However, eventually somebody throws the wet blanket of reality on it (all you have to say is Horizons really or even better Mourning) and it kind of brings you back to being a cynical asshole towards the whole genre.

Somebody prove everyone here wrong, please...  but until that happens how can you act so surprised by "teh hate" being the common denominator in most discussions.

[Margalis]

I think people are purposely missing the point here. This is a problem that has nothing to do with swearing and nothing to do with Raging Douchebag week. The problem is that "teh hate" started as tongue-in-cheek but now the tongue has divorced from the cheek.

It's like that guy that always makes racist jokes to imitate racist people as a joke, but after a while you start realizing hey maybe this guy actually is racist, because he's enjoying it too much. Being dumb and spewing the hate at some point was a pursposeful affectation (if that's a word) but now it's now gotten ingrained in people as the real deal.

The thread about Hollywood vs. games was a good example. On one side you had someone who worked in the games industry, and he was just dismissed out of hand because the accepted explanation was "devs are stupid" and anything else was clearly incorrect. That's weak. Or look at the thread about unionization of game developers. "Devs are pussies." Ok, that's a great explanation!

People here severely underestimate how difficult it is to run a company, publish things, create fun games, or undertake engineering problems. "Devs are stupid" is not the answer, that's just very lazy and uninformed thinking. It's like two guys in Arkansas who have never seen a gay guy complaining about the radical homosexual agenda. Just playing games doesn't make you an expert on game development or running or small business or lowering production costs or anything like that.

The tone here *has* changed from Waterthread. That isn't to say that it's all bad or that everyone here is worthless, I think every poster here adds something at least some of the time. This isn't personal and there isn't reason to take offense. I would just say we could do with a little less finger pointing and "ha ha!" and and a little more rational discussion.

Edit: As far as MMORPGs always failing, WoW did a lot of good things for a lot of people, including a much shorter levelling curve. CoH also had a number of plusses. Neither of those games is for everyone but I don't think you can claim that no progress is being made. People complain about "progress quest" so much but I made it to level 18 in WoW during 4 or 5 days of playing Beta, so at least that one concern was addressed.

[Merusk]

I'm dissapointed to see the thread go this direction, although it needed to happen.  Being that my stuff was what a lot of "Me toos" were directed at, I want it made clear that I don't intend any disrespect towards McQuaid himself.  He's got a niche he's aiming at, however foolish I personally think that aim is I can see there's a market for something akin to it.  However, I don't hate him or his endeavour to create a 'hard' virtual world.  Oh no, my hate is reserved for the mindset that he seems to have fallen into that "Time = All that Matters."

  Those of you thinking I was saying "omg noez not a  game with challenge!!" I'm not.  I enjoy a challenge.  I don't even have to be the best at it. If I did, I'd never play MTG or FPS games because I suck HARD at those. But I still play and enjoy them because they're fun and a challenge for me.   But when Challenge, or achievement is tied solely into time played (in a session, over a subscription, whatever.) then I have a big problem with it.   Advancement can be tied into time played, and I wouldn't ahve a problem with it.  You've been there longer you get to see/ do more. Great, I'm fine with that because I can get there eventually too.  (Which is why I don't toss loads of hate at Eve.  Been playing the 14 day trial and finding it's actually fun.. if it's going on the laptop as a second activity. But that's another thread.)

As for you, the administrators.  Take a look at who's saying the Hate's gotten overplayed of late.  Then take a look at who's saying "no no, bring it on. More hate! They all are cockgobblers!"  Decide which one you want posting more, because sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "You all just don't get it." like you've done in the last few posts isn't doing yourselves any favors.

[Velorath]

You don't get it.

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.  

Do the developers actually say anything of note there though?  Maybe I've just missed it in all the times I've checked out corp.

I'm not seeing much of the echo thing here either, at least not to the extent where I think it stifles discussion.  I seem to recall a decent split on WoW, and Schild of all people was giving EQ2 the benefit of the doubt for a while there going against popular opinion.  A lot of people here have the similar opinions on the state of the industry, or what they think is wrong with the current MMO's, but when it comes to actually judging the games AFTER they've been released I think most people here give them a fair chance, and in the end I think that's what's really important.

Edit:

The thread about Hollywood vs. games was a good example. On one side you had someone who worked in the games industry, and he was just dismissed out of hand because the accepted explanation was "devs are stupid" and anything else was clearly incorrect. That's weak. Or look at the thread about unionization of game developers. "Devs are pussies." Ok, that's a great explanation!

Are you talking about the Not Ready for Closeups topic?  If so, having just gone back and reread it, I think you're vastly over-simplifying that discussion.  Now I don't agree with a lot of what was said on each side, but I didn't see anyone simply being dismissed for having a different opinion, I didn't see the majority shout the minority down, and there was much more being discussed there than just "Devs are pussies."

[HaemishM]

You don't get it.

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.  

I do read it. Savage, you may have. Good, not so much.

[schild]

People here severely underestimate how difficult it is to run a company, publish things, create fun games, or undertake engineering problems. "Devs are stupid" is not the answer, that's just very lazy and uninformed thinking.

I don't think many people here have illusions that creating games (that get released) is easy. I know how hard it is to get a game made. I don't remember anyone specifically saying "Devs are stupid." Pussies/Weak-Kneed, yes. Lazy, yes. But stupid, no, not really. Making games is HARD work. And it requires a lot of it. So you have to wonder why some of these games are being made at all. Sure, there are some necessary evils - EQ2 (which yes, I did defend for a while), WoW, etc. But the majority of MMOGs on the market and coming out Need Not Exist. They may add one or two nice things to the genre. But one or two nice things spread across 50 games does not a revolution/evolution make. I don't really have much else to say on the developer subject other than "No, I don't want to play Level Grind #27 for Rehashed Raid Content #6. Sorries."

[HaemishM]

The thread about Hollywood vs. games was a good example. On one side you had someone who worked in the games industry,

Mobile phone games. Which was a segment of the games industry I wasn't even talking about in said article, since mobile phone games are actually done with really small budgets, and yet are really, really profitable. It might be a good idea if some of the game devs funded their good games with really cheap mobile phone games. But that's not an area I see many game devs exploring, because the games are so simplistic, you might as well be making games for 3 generations old hardware.

and he was just dismissed out of hand because the accepted explanation was "devs are stupid" and anything else was clearly incorrect. That's weak. Or look at the thread about unionization of game developers. "Devs are pussies." Ok, that's a great explanation!

People here severely underestimate how difficult it is to run a company, publish things, create fun games, or undertake engineering problems. "Devs are stupid" is not the answer, that's just very lazy and uninformed thinking. It's like two guys in Arkansas who have never seen a gay guy complaining about the radical homosexual agenda. Just playing games doesn't make you an expert on game development or running or small business or lowering production costs or anything like that.

Since it was my article specifically mentioned, as well as my contributions in the Unions thread, I'll answer this. I'M NO EXPERT ON GAMES, NOR DO I CLAIM TO BE. I'm an opininated asshole, and I write that way. I do not underestimate the effort it takes to do any of this stuff. But I do say that these are the things I observe, these are the conclusions I've made from it, and this is what I see happening because of it. In the threads you mentioned, the things I see happening appear to me to be SO FUCKING OBVIOUS, even to a non-expert like myself, that I cannot understand why someone who actually has more information on the subject cannot see the obvious. And maybe it isn't obvious, unless you are looking at it from the outside in.

Again, you and St. Gabe, in this thread and in those two threads mentioned oversimplify my points, and thus argue against the points incorrectly. "Devs are stupid" was not the point. "Devs are risk averse." That's a point. "Devs are often so caught up in ivory-tower wanking that they miss the forest for the trees." That's a point. "Devs don't need an employee's union to give them mandated 40-hour work weeks, they need an alliance of development companies to set the proper tone." That's a point. But you and Gabe have both gotten caught up in hyperbole and missed the fucking point.

This isn't a binary thing. It isn't just a matter of "We want more teh hate" crowd or "We want more devs" crowd. We want discussion that isn't constrained by arbitrary rules of niceties nor overburdened with e-peen stupid. We'd also like teh funney, because we get bored at work real easy.

[shiznitz]

Put me in the camp that thought this thread was about ridiculing McQuaid for thinking there are 250,000 catasses out there. That is the delusional part. I won't argue that Vanguard is likely to excel at one thing EQ1 did well: interesting and engaging zone design, something many of the newer MMOGs are seriously lacking.

Oh, and if that bit about debuffing a tree so you can harvest is true, then some dev at Sigil deserves a Retard Medal.

[Raguel]

I started (and responded to) a few threads on Corp and got some good responses from Ubiq and Stormwaltz, until I went pscyho on them. 


Seriously though, in the attempt to learn C++ on my own, I've gained a great deal of respect for the difficulty of making games.    Not that it makes me like grinding any more than I ever did. 

As far as Vanguard is concerned, I bet it gets 250k easy. I've been reading the official site for awhile, and I think they have  a lot of good ideas, except for the whole tree-debuffing, must-play-for-10-hours-straight-to-do-anything stuff.

[Hoax]

Edit: As far as MMORPGs always failing, WoW did a lot of good things for a lot of people, including a much shorter levelling curve. CoH also had a number of plusses. Neither of those games is for everyone but I don't think you can claim that no progress is being made. People complain about "progress quest" so much but I made it to level 18 in WoW during 4 or 5 days of playing Beta, so at least that one concern was addressed.

I guess that is where the split comes from, I dont think WoW did a lot of good things for anyone.  I think they promised some good things and failed to deliver.  A casual friendly game where raid content is almost the entire endgame?  PvP that frankly was just as obvious of a turn flag on as EQ1 but with better class balance.  CoH had plusses, agreed I never played it because I had just gotten off SB and was not ready for any kind of grinding whatsoever I really need to try it out as its the only major MMOG I've never tried.  WoW is a good example of everyone, myself included buying into the hype finding out its pure hype and quitting.  Sure it did good things to the genre by bringing a metric fuckton of new players into it from FPS and RTS genres who soon will begin clamoring for MMOFPS and MMORTS games which is fine by me.  But I dont think WoW really did anything for the more jaded MMOG crowd but fool us with promises (and the fact blizzard used to deliver on said promises) and the new Shiney.

I've got some hope for WoW and will pick it back up when they release their first major expansion, hell if they would just make it so on pvp servers ALL contested zone graveyards could only respawn one faction or the other and control over them could change hands  and balance some other stuff accordingly it'd be a pretty damn good game.  But I dont agree that it was any kind of step in the right direction for MMOG's in general.  Nobody has successfully stepped away from the /played > player skill formula even in the smallest way, except for EvE which is its own discussion into much more complex problems with MMOG's in general.

[Shockeye]

You don't get it.

Read corp sometime.  You will find savage criticism and developers posting.

Yeah, Matt is posting over there. Good show that.

Moron.

[Margalis]

"Devs are risk averse." That's a point. "Devs are often so caught up in ivory-tower wanking that they miss the forest for the trees." That's a point. "Devs don't need an employee's union to give them mandated 40-hour work weeks, they need an alliance of development companies to set the proper tone." That's a point.

I don't agree with 2 of your 3 points above. Actually I don't agree with any of them. PUBLISHERS are risk-averse, not devs. Most devs are *not* caught up in ivory-tower wanking. (SWG being the exception). In fact, most devs could afford to ivory-tower wank a lot more. And an alliance of dev companies that set the tone wouldn't accomplish a whole lot compared to a union. I don't see what's bad about a union, given that software engineers typically work many more hours than teachers, constuction workers and a bunch of other people who do have unions. And forming a union is possible; crossing your fiingers and hoping for some alliance to form is not, nor is that something that Joe dev can work towards. You are just calling things as you see them, but not everything you see can be taken at face value.
---

As far as MMORPG advances and WoW, I don't like WoW. But it IS more casual friendly for at least some types of players. If you are unhappy with what happens at level 60 roll a new character, or quit. That's what casual gaming is about. If I play a game for 3 months then get bored I stop - why should a MMORPG be any different. In WoW you can have fun from day 1, and when it stops being fun you can do something else. That seems pretty casual to me.

Yes, WoW could use more stuff to do at level 60, but that's a separate problem. WoW has a lot of failings but it certainly did address the Progress Quest concerns to some degree. It's not like I'm a WoW fanboy, I wrote the review that said it was bland when everyone else was still hyped about it.

[schild]

Devs are pretty risk adverse. If you go to a publisher with an idea and they say "Gee Will Wright, that's pretty good" and then it ends up flopping like a beached dolphin, you're fucked. Take a look at Troika.

[Yegolev]

Should I say that sports gamers or driver gamers ruin my gameplay because they take away from game development that could go into strategy and puzzle titles?

This is what I say, blaming Halo and Medal of Honor for the lack of Xbox RPGs as one example.  Stupid console FPSers, RUINING MY LIFE!!!1!

[HaemishM]

"Devs are risk averse." That's a point. "Devs are often so caught up in ivory-tower wanking that they miss the forest for the trees." That's a point. "Devs don't need an employee's union to give them mandated 40-hour work weeks, they need an alliance of development companies to set the proper tone." That's a point.

I don't agree with 2 of your 3 points above. Actually I don't agree with any of them. PUBLISHERS are risk-averse, not devs. Most devs are *not* caught up in ivory-tower wanking. (SWG being the exception). In fact, most devs could afford to ivory-tower wank a lot more. And an alliance of dev companies that set the tone wouldn't accomplish a whole lot compared to a union. I don't see what's bad about a union, given that software engineers typically work many more hours than teachers, constuction workers and a bunch of other people who do have unions. And forming a union is possible; crossing your fiingers and hoping for some alliance to form is not, nor is that something that Joe dev can work towards. You are just calling things as you see them, but not everything you see can be taken at face value.

We must agree to disagree. I see almost all labor unions as destructive, parasitic entities that fluff their leadership's egos more than their worker's interests. I see very little good that comes out of unions in this day and age. But I see a conglomeration of developers being much more effective, because not only could they put more pressure on the retail market to treat their products right, but could also make better margins out of any products the conglomeration sells as opposed to what they'd get from publishers.

[Arthur_Parker]

Schild what makes you think Warhammer will be turned based?  

I don't own the new version of WFRP but I do own the original and I think it would translate to a mmorpg well.  I'm also of the belief that games entering development after the release of WoW will no longer use EQ as the template to copy, which is a major change.

So Mythic could be onto a very good thing with the warhammer license, bit too early to tell though from 7 posts by Mark Jacobs on the unoffical Warhammer forum.