Episode 3

[Margalis]

You might want to just avoid this movie entirely then. Or, you could just wait for the "Adventures of Young Han Solo" TV show or something.

As far as the films go, including this one, they're about Jedi (whether you care to admit it or not).

I'm not saying I don't want it to be about Jedis. I'm just saying at the end of everything when all is said and done they should all be dead. Thats balance.

[Shockeye]

You might want to just avoid this movie entirely then. Or, you could just wait for the "Adventures of Young Han Solo" TV show or something.

As far as the films go, including this one, they're about Jedi (whether you care to admit it or not).

I'm not saying I don't want it to be about Jedis. I'm just saying at the end of everything when all is said and done they should all be dead. Thats balance.

Well, the Jedi are insane for thinking Anakin is going to kill all the Sith and "bring balance". If you remove the evil, you have no balance. By killing all the Jedi and only leaving Yoda and Obi-Wan along with Vader and Sidious, there is balance. 2 and 2.

[Llava]

OH!

Right!

How come Obi Wan thinks that Luke is their last hope and Yoda has to tell him, "No, there is another."

Or was it the other way around?

Either way, they were both there when the twins were born.  Why would one know and the other wouldn't?

[WindupAtheist]

"That boy is our last hope."
"Nah, there's always his sister we can train."
"I guess.  We're making her cut her hair first though."

In other words, I wouldn't take Obi's "If that kid fails, we're fucked!" line to explicitly mean "I have no idea his sister exists."

[Evil Elvis]

"That boy is our last hope."
"Nah, there's always his sister we can train."
"I guess.  We're making her cut her hair first though."

In other words, I wouldn't take Obi's "If that kid fails, we're fucked!" line to explicitly mean "I have no idea his sister exists."

How about just admitting the prequels created a ton of plot holes, and be done with it?

[Shockeye]

"That boy is our last hope."
"Nah, there's always his sister we can train."
"I guess.  We're making her cut her hair first though."

In other words, I wouldn't take Obi's "If that kid fails, we're fucked!" line to explicitly mean "I have no idea his sister exists."

How about just admitting the prequels created a ton of plot holes, and be done with it?

Episode 3 reminded me, once again, how we didn't need any prequels at all.

[Llava]

"That boy is our last hope."
"Nah, there's always his sister we can train."
"I guess.  We're making her cut her hair first though."

In other words, I wouldn't take Obi's "If that kid fails, we're fucked!" line to explicitly mean "I have no idea his sister exists."

Well, the "there is another" answer seemed to imply that the questioner didn't realize that potential existed in the other... which leads me to question- uh, why not?

I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the hell out of Episode 3.  I thought it was a blast.  But there are still a lot, a LOT, of problems with this particular episode and with Star Wars altogether.

[schild]

My problem with Star Wars (and Trek to a lesser extent) is that the fans think there's a ton of problems. But still love it. Any other series would be labeled shitty with so many anachronisms, incomplete storylines, and faulty plot points. But Star Wars? Fuck no. One day I just want one Star Wars fan to admit that they really only liked Han and some of the original battle scenes. And then I'll tell them to go watch Indiana Jones and that will be the end of it.

[stray]

My problem with Star Wars (and Trek to a lesser extent) is that the fans think there's a ton of problems. But still love it. Any other series would be labeled shitty with so many anachronisms, incomplete storylines, and faulty plot points. But Star Wars? Fuck no. One day I just want one Star Wars fan to admit that they really only liked Han and some of the original battle scenes. And then I'll tell them to go watch Indiana Jones and that will be the end of it.

It's the same reason why I like Mullholland Dr. (or David Lynch in general), 2001, or the dialogue between the Architect and Neo in Matrix Reloaded. Lots of films actually.

Some things I still find worth my time, even if the little details confuse me. I'm not going to write something off if I found the overall experience to be good. Sometimes I can just say "fuck the plot" and enjoy myself.

Or to put it another way, I don't "think in absolutes"  .

[Shockeye]

I enjoyed "National Treasure". I mildly enjoyed "Sahara". I didn't enjoy Episode 3. They all had dumb plots.

[schild]

The season finale of Smallville had better dialogue than any of the Star Wars excluding any line delivered by Harrison Ford.

[SurfD]

I don't think you can get rid of the Sith, really.  They will invent themselves from within the ranks of the Jedi.  Some Jedi will eventually give into his baser emotions and then the whole thing starts again.

Also, Sidious does figure out the extending life thing, at least in the EU, he is described as feeding off the life of millions in order ot extend his own life and increase his powers.

Depending on your views of EU material, I was always under the impresion that there were MANY Sith (possibly upwards of a few dozen).  They just operate from the shadows, carefully hatching their plans.  Just because Sidious/Vader were so prominent does not mean they were the ONLY sith in the whole wide cosmos.

Also, I seem to recall mention that Sidious supposedly gained his "imortality" by cloneing himself and then using a dark side technique to transfer conciousness from one body to another.  Supposedly he was on his 8th or so clone, and had one in reserve, when Vader offed him, cause someone mentioned an EU storyline where some members of the Imperial Remnant discovered the dormant clone and attemted to resurect the emperor (the clone would have none of the emperor's old memories, but all of his power in the force, due to force sensitivity being more of a genetic thing then a mental thing)

[stray]

What's "EU" stand for? And is it worth reading? I mean, does it have any bearing on "the facts" () of the SW universe, or is it basically just fan fiction?

[stray]

The season finale of Smallville had better dialogue than any of the Star Wars excluding any line delivered by Harrison Ford.

Lots of things have better dialogue than Star Wars (Perhaps everything does. Who knows?). But.....They're not "Star Wars" either. It succeeds at being a better Stars Wars than everything else. Star Wars succeeds at being a better Star Wars than Smallville.

Funny enough, Smallville succeeds at being a better Smallville than Star Wars.

Details don't necessarily distinguish anything. Ideas do.

Now, if you think the idea sucks to begin with, then that's another thing.

[schild]

Smallville is better entertainment. Is that better?

I don't like spelling things out.

[stray]

Smallville is better entertainment. Is that better?

I don't like spelling things out.

Lol, I haven't even seen it 

Maybe I should?

[schild]

It's teen drama young superman. Filled with hot actresses and generic characters. The story, however, progresses well and makes for a nice alternative to the stale original story of superman. I'd prefer Smallville's Tom Welling to that douchebag Brandon Routh playing him.

[MrHat]

It's teen drama young superman. Filled with hot actresses and generic characters. The story, however, progresses well and makes for a nice alternative to the stale original story of superman. I'd prefer Smallville's Tom Welling to that douchebag Brandon Routh playing him.

Thanks for admitting it sucks.

[stray]

What's "EU" stand for? And is it worth reading? I mean, does it have any bearing on "the facts" () of the SW universe, or is it basically just fan fiction?

Oops, sorry for the stupid question. I just figured it out.

I guess I'll rephrase the question: Which books are worth reading, and do they conflict with anything Lucas has written?

[Abagadro]

The stuff written by Timothy Zahn is good. Haven't read any of the other stuff.

[Shockeye]

What's "EU" stand for? And is it worth reading? I mean, does it have any bearing on "the facts" () of the SW universe, or is it basically just fan fiction?

Oops, sorry for the stupid question. I just figured it out.

I guess I'll rephrase the question: Which books are worth reading, and do they conflict with anything Lucas has written?

Does it matter? Lucas conflicts with himself.

[SurfD]

What's "EU" stand for? And is it worth reading? I mean, does it have any bearing on "the facts" () of the SW universe, or is it basically just fan fiction?

Oops, sorry for the stupid question. I just figured it out.

I guess I'll rephrase the question: Which books are worth reading, and do they conflict with anything Lucas has written?

Does it matter? Lucas conflicts with himself.

Far as i can tell, the EU "extended Universe" is basicly everything that lucas has not personally vouched for as "cannon" starwars.  Cannon being, from what I know, the 6 movies and maybe 2 books and the old Comicbook series.  Everything else is EU.  So all the DarkForces / Jedi Knight / Jedi Accademy etc Starwars video games, books about events after episode 6, stuff like that, are all taken to be Extended Universe.

[Samwise]

Don't all those things still have to be approved by Lucas or his flunkies at some level, though?

[WindupAtheist]

By and large, the books do a good job in terms of continuity.  Each of them begins with a timeline listing all of the films and books, and the year each takes place relative to Episode IV.  Everything co-exists within the same fictional context.  For example, there was a series of little softcover books aimed at the early teen market, following the children of Han and Leia at that age.  Characters introduced in those books would continue to exist, grow up over time, and would turn up as adults in "serious" hardcover books years later.  A lot of the kids introduced in the children's books would go on to become Jedi (and sometimes meet rather grusome deaths) in the New Jedi Order series, for example.

As for what's good and what isn't...  Go pick up Heir to the Empire and the two sequels, all by Timothy Zahn.  They're universally well-liked, and in my mind they're practically the unofficial Episodes 7 through 9.  The New Jedi Order series is spotty, but the high points are actually very good.  Star By Star gave me a sort of serious and sad vibe similar to Episodes 3 and 5, and is quite worth picking up.  I came into it cold, with almost no idea what was going on in the story at that point, but by the end I knew I had to buy the next one and see where it went from there.

[stray]

Heh, any books about the guy you're using as an avatar? Gen. Harkin almost seems like a superior to Vader in the original films (I may be forgetting something), but the prequels don't even mention him or why Sidious has him around.

[Abagadro]

It's Tarkin actually. And I believe that he is a regional governor (titled Grand Moff) of the system, and therefore is in fact Vader's superior in that area of space. I got the sense in the original trilogy that Vader is sort of extra-governmental and therefore has to defer to the leader of the region under Palpatine's newly formed governmental structure upon dissolving the Senate.

EDIT/SPOILER: Oh, and in the end scene in Sith abord the Star Destroyer as they are looking at the proto-Death Star there is an Imperial Officer that is obviously a young Tarkin.

[WindupAtheist]

I'm under the impression that Tarkin had command of the Death Star operation, and that Vader had very little official business there.  I always figured he was REALLY around to put a saber up Tarkin's ass, should controlling the biggest gun in the universe have a negative effect on Tarkin's loyalty to the Empire.

Oh BTW, check this out:  http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859

Overall rating for original trilogy as of now: 90%
Overall rating for prequel trilogy as of now: 70%
Overall rating for original trilogy based on reviews during their initial release: 54%

So yeah, fuck the critics.  Back in the day they ripped ESB worse than TPM.  Only years later, when the Special Editions came out and it was clear that "OMG Star Wars sux" wasn't going to be a popular opinion, did the critics decide to like the original trilogy.

[Llava]

My problem with Star Wars (and Trek to a lesser extent) is that the fans think there's a ton of problems. But still love it. Any other series would be labeled shitty with so many anachronisms, incomplete storylines, and faulty plot points. But Star Wars? Fuck no. One day I just want one Star Wars fan to admit that they really only liked Han and some of the original battle scenes. And then I'll tell them to go watch Indiana Jones and that will be the end of it.

1) I never liked Han.  Sorry, I didn't.  Still don't.  I didn't like Luke either.  I thought Vader was cool, lightsabres were cool, force powers were cool, and that was it.
2) I don't consider myself a Star Wars fan.  I hated Episode 1, thought Episode 2 was mediocre at best, and didn't really feel all that excited by episodes 4-6.  Episode 3 I thoroughly enjoyed as a largely brainless action flick with kickass lightsabre action.  I got what I wanted out of the movie and then some.
3) I think it's an interesting universe Lucas has created here with a LOT of shit mucking it up.  For the most part, the characters all suck.  The characters that COULD be cool never got there, or were fucked up by lines like "Yippee!" or confused sand comparisons.  Star Wars has (well, had) the potential to be awesome but never, in my book, reached it.  But most folks seem willing to settle.  Me, I'll take what I can get from it- cool fight scenes, and an interesting story nugget here and there.

Oh, and I like Yoda, too.  He's just lovable.

[Jayce]

I just saw it.  I was hearing a guarded thumbs up from a lot of people.

I thought it was the worst of all of them.  It didn't really have dialog, just actors voicing plot points.  I could go on but I'm tired.  Should we discuss the movie itself in a new thread?  This is page 20 after all.

[stray]

My problem with Star Wars (and Trek to a lesser extent) is that the fans think there's a ton of problems. But still love it. Any other series would be labeled shitty with so many anachronisms, incomplete storylines, and faulty plot points. But Star Wars? Fuck no.

Yeah, I just wanted to comment on this again (about Star Wars, not Trek). Nobody's being an apologist. It's simply a matter of people looking at it in two ways. They appreciate it as "Space Opera", but maybe complicate things for themselves when they try to look at it as "Science Fiction". It's probably best to just enjoy it on a more visceral level.

I don't know what you're talking about with "incomplete storylines" though. The story is all there. I just had to mention my confusion with one line Palpatine had said about Midochlorians (which is to say, if interpreted a certain way, the story would be completely different....but either way, it's not "incomplete").

[stray]

It didn't really have dialog, just actors voicing plot points.

Oh man, please don't go there.

[WindupAtheist]

How about just admitting the prequels created a ton of plot holes, and be done with it?

Well see, I don't flip out everytime someone says something which, when taken a certain way, conflicts with something they did or said twenty years prior.  I mean, let's take the "There is another" conversation and extrapolate it beyond the end of the scene.

Obi: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.
Obi: Hmm.  Do you think she has it in her?
Yoda: That we shall see.

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to buy the notion that Obi-Wan was simply thinking of the boy he'd quiety watched over for decades, and that the girl he saw as an infant and then again briefly as an adult wasn't foremost in his mind.  Now one Yoda/Obi bit that DID get pissed on with the prequels came in ESB.

Yoda:  Impatient he is, headstrong.  (Or something to this effect.)
Obi:  Was I any different, when you taught me?

How the hell do you extrapolate or rationalize THAT?

Yoda:  Dude, I didn't teach you.  Qui-Gon Jinn did, remember?
Obi:  Er... yeah...  I meant was I any different when Qui-Gon taught me?
Yoda:  Yeah, actually, you were calm and patient!  Your master was the headstrong one!
Obi:  I'll just fuck off now.

[Murgos]

In other star wars news I'm pretty interested in this:

http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/713/713904/vids_1.html

[Merusk]

Obi: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.
Obi: Hmm.  Do you think she has it in her?
Yoda: That we shall see.

Obi: So then, how the hell are you getting off this rock to train her? I sure as hell can't, being dead and all.  It's been 22 years, does your ship even work now?
Yoda: Oh, right. Hrm. Screwed, we are.

I think the scene with Yoda teaching the younglings was supposed to be the gloss-over for Obi's "Was I any different when you taught me?" line. It's a bad cop-out but it's better than "omg I'm a single mother of twins to an evil bastard, I must die now so he can be fuxored in his choice to be evil!"

The one that's not resolved for me is Luke asking Leia about memories of her "real mother."  It suggests Leia knew she was adopted and knew her mother briefly as a child. Whoopsie there.

On another note, I was impressed the found someone who looked so similar to Peter  Cushing for the brief Tarkin scene. I'll be dissapointed when I find out it was just more CGI.


Also, those of you who got to see Narnia and Harry Potter trailers suck.  I got the Fantastic 4, Batman Begins, Cinderella Man, and War of the Worlds.  Yay for trailers of movies that will be out in less than 2 months. (Fuck you, Showcase)

[stray]

Also, those of you who got to see Narnia and Harry Potter trailers suck.  I got the Fantastic 4, Batman Begins, Cinderella Man, and War of the Worlds.  Yay for trailers of movies that will be out in less than 2 months. (Fuck you, Showcase)

I saw those trailers as well, except War of the Worlds and Harry Potter.