Episode 3

[WindupAtheist]

Star Wars geekery blossoms!  Muahahahah!

But the plot of the first 3 movies is that he never really was evil, just misguided.

No, I mean Anakin goes balls-out evil in Episode III.  Frankly, he comes off as more of a rotten bastard than Vader ever did in the original trilogy.

Spoiler:  Having slaughtered every adult he could find in the Jedi Temple, Anakin steps into the room where all the little kindergarten-aged Jedi younglings are kept.  They greet him by name, not realizing what is going on.  We hear the sound of Anakin's lightsaber igniting as the camera cuts away to the next scene, and the implication is that he is now murdering a room full of six-year olds in cold blood.  Oh, and Padme dies as a result of injuries inflicted by Anakin force-choking her and bouncing her off a wall

You can argue that his standing by while Tarkin blew up Alderaan was worse, but this is rather more visceral.

[schild]

This thread has completely reaffirmed why the universe is so boring to me. It's like very expensive LARPing put on film.

[Arnold]

But come Star Wars, Vader is EVIL.

Most people who are evil don't consider themselves such.  This is evil both big and small - whether you're lying to your boss/friend, or participating in genocide, you're going to justify your actions to yourself.

In the case of blowing up Alderaan, Vader had two motives.  One, was to show the lengths that the Empire was willing to go to in order to demand compliance.  Remember, there was a rebellion that was alive and well.  It was organized, funded, and a very REAL threat to the Empire's existance.  And here he had Leia, a member of the Senate (the Empire's own governing body), and a well connected member of said rebellion.  She had information crippling to the Empire, and he had to solicit compliance from her, in particular.

Most entities will go to ANY length to ensure their own survival.  Governments, both real and fictitious, can be counted upon to act in the same way that individuals will.  Threaten a government, and it will react - violently - to defend itself.  Without trying to draw too much parallel, one of the reasons to drop the bombs on Japan - to demonstrate US power, and willingness to use that power.  The other reason was to answer the question of whether Japan's surrender would be conditional or not.

To say that he was blowing up planets for his own satisfaction would be to entirely miss the point of the movies.  The Empire wouldn't have held together had the government (of which he was, effectively, VP) been doing that.  If the populace hadn't understood some level of cause-effect that seemed rational to them, they wouldn't have thrown their support behind it.

Keep in mind that Vader tried to lure Luke into joining him so that they could overthrow the emperor and rule the galaxy themselves, "as father and son".  He wasn't just doing his job.  He was also looking to further his own power and stage a coup, so he could rule with his own iron fist.

[Arnold]

Umm, you mean like how he thought through the whole "20 years ago we knew Jedi powers derived from real things called Medichlorians, but in less than a generation is was considered a hokey old religion based on supersition?" thing?  Or how about the whole part where C-3PO should be saying, "Master Luke, perhaps now would be a good time to mention that I was actually built by your father and oh, by the way, he's Darth Vader?" but doesn't?  Or perhaps the brilliant plan of, "Hey, Anakin is going to be looking for his children, so lets hide one on Tatooine, you know, his home planet, with the same family that Anakin's mother later lived with, oh and we'll leave the Jedi that dropped Anakin into a volcano there in a cave to watch over him, but don't worry, because Anakin will NEVER THINK TO LOOK THERE." is more to your liking?

A sufficient explanation?  I'll take "No" for $500, Alex.

Bruce

And where the fuck did R2-D2s jets come from???  WTF was Lucas thinking?

Also, I can't remember from episodes 4-6, but did Vader even know he had children before he bumped into Luke? 

[SirBruce]

Also, I can't remember from episodes 4-6, but did Vader even know he had children before he bumped into Luke? 

Yes, he knew he had made a woman pregnant, but didn't know there was more than one child (and thus didn't know about Leia).  As for Luke, it's never made clear how he figured out he was his son, but probably once he found out his name, it made sense, and he put the pieces together in-between Star Wars and Empire.

Bruce

[Arnold]

Also, I can't remember from episodes 4-6, but did Vader even know he had children before he bumped into Luke? 

Yes, he knew he had made a woman pregnant, but didn't know there was more than one child (and thus didn't know about Leia).  As for Luke, it's never made clear how he figured out he was his son, but probably once he found out his name, it made sense, and he put the pieces together in-between Star Wars and Empire.

Bruce

Probably as he slapped his helmet, 5 seconds after Luke shot his ass up in the space battle.

[Ironwood]

But then we're back to the whole problem that Vader is evil because Vader is evil. Not because he has been corrupted. If Vader is basically Hitler in space, then Return of the Jedi falls apart. You can't redeem someone who is evil. It just doesn't happen in real life. A serial killer doesn't just save his own child and suddenly become a good person.

Which was why the book 'Hannibal' sucked so much monkey-cock.

[Roac]

Just because the Empire had motivation to blow up the planet doesn't make it rational or right.

Correct, motivation doesn't determine moral judgement.  However, I was discussing motivation, not morality.  You misrepresented the motivation; I corrected it.  Following through with it still makes him unfun, but the motivation makes a big difference on the character development.  If he had killed people simply for amusement, then it would be really difficult to answer why he wouldn't redeemed himself at all in the end.  If, however, his motivations were some sort of obscene altruism, his objection to watching his son be tortured to death for what seemed to be the Emperor's personal pleasure was more plausible, as was his reason for killing the Emperor. 

[HaemishM]

I thought that was a great trailer. However, my expectations for the movie are still lower than dirt. I expect that since Lucas has not let go one iota of control, it will still have less story and good character development than most midget pr0n. I'm also positive he will take every liberty he can with continuity, bend my childhood over a table and have sweaty mansex with the broken shreds of my innocence.

Why?

Ewoks.

[HaemishM]

On another note, the 3rd matrix didn't suck, most people are just too stupid to truly understand it.

Yea, religious subtext is HARD. Don't be so dumb. They aren't too stupid to understand it, the movie just wasn't very good. The shit you're talking about people "not understanding" was like a hit across the face with a five iron. Subtlety is not the Wachowski's best quality.

The 3rd Star Wars will suck. Lucas is a bad director.

Sorry for the double post, but I had to agree with schild here.

Holy fuck, the parts that really, REALLY, REALLY made the Matrix Revolutions and Reloaded suck were the "philosophical" bits. See, I GOT IT. Only, the message was so goddamn blatantly silly that I couldn't help but get it. It was like being clubbed over the head by a giant black kong-sized dildo, and just as tasteless.

The first Matrix was about freedom from oppression, and by the third one, it was about choice. The choice to live as a slave in normal land or as a free person in a blasted out hell on earth. You're telling me that people died and in the end it was just ok to have a truce with the machines that were using them as fucking Energizer Bunnies? WTF? Oh but no it was really that evil Mr. Smith sentience, he was the bad one. The machine overlords aren't so bad, so long as they give us a choice. WTF? It's stupid. It's also shamefully wasteful.

That article someone linked to a while back comparing the Matrix to an attempt to create a peaceful, enlightened society except without a God was appropo. Because the whole time, the Bros. are trying to create this pseudo-religion that accepts absolutely everybody but does so without any belief in an actual God, instead deifying man or the individual's right of choice. Most of the time, I'd write articles like that off, only this one was spot on.

Matrix blew monkeys in some Bangkok Sailor Wanna Hump Hump Karaoke Bar. Let it be dead and buried.

[Riggswolfe]

Also, I can't remember from episodes 4-6, but did Vader even know he had children before he bumped into Luke? 

Yes, he knew he had made a woman pregnant, but didn't know there was more than one child (and thus didn't know about Leia).  As for Luke, it's never made clear how he figured out he was his son, but probably once he found out his name, it made sense, and he put the pieces together in-between Star Wars and Empire.

Bruce

My guess (I've avoidfed spoilers as much as possible) is that Anakin believes Padme died and the children with her. This makes him never hunting Luke down much more plausible. And really, Ben, says that the Emporer woulda hunted Luke down had he known of his existence. (In ROTJ I believe).

[stray]

You're telling me that people died and in the end it was just ok to have a truce with the machines that were using them as fucking Energizer Bunnies? WTF?

Well, I hate to get into all this, but I'd like to point out that it was the human race's fault for that even happening. You can't really expect the machines to just find a new energy source right away, can you? Do you expect them to die? Then who's going to kill them? The humans (fat chance)? Should they just kill themselves then? Why?

The humans were lucky enough that the machines accepted Neo's offer of peace -- especially when they didn't have to. All he had to do was prove it -- and he did. Every other incarnation of "Neo" (which the Architect mentioned) was a warrior/Messiah, a one sided entity that fought only for the human cause. They all failed. The machines kept wiping the Matrix waiting for a "Neo" that got his head out of his ass and realize that coexistence was the only option. Finally, the last one did.

That last fight with Smith wasn't a showdown with the "evil" bad guy. It was a test.

[HaemishM]

No, it was a Superman/General Zod fight without capes. It really served no fucking purpose other than another FX-gasm. Smith's entire story arc grew from mildly interesting to utterly retarded. He MADE it out of the Matrix, just as he said he wanted to in the first movie. Then he decides he really just wants to take it over and make everyone him? WTF?

The lack of exposition at the end really hurt the movie, IMO. Not because every tragic ending needs an explanation but because all the shit that led up to it previously told us nothing about what we needed to know in order to process it. The architect walking up to the Oracle at the end on the park bench... ghey. It was a whole bunch of sound and fury and loud obnoxious gun battles, but very little resolution and very little explanation of what the Matrix was and should be.

[Riggswolfe]

The humans were lucky enough that the machines accepted Neo's offer of peace -- especially when they didn't have to. All he had to do was prove it -- and he did. Every other incarnation of "Neo" (which the Architect mentioned) was a warrior/Messiah, a one sided entity that fought only for the human cause. They all failed. The machines kept wiping the Matrix waiting for a "Neo" that got his head out of his ass and realize that coexistence was the only option. Finally, the last one did.

That last fight with Smith wasn't a showdown with the "evil" bad guy. It was a test.

That was kind of what I got from it too, other than the fact that I didn't think of Smith as a test. Interesting take on it. I also thought the rebuilt Matrix had some of Neo's guidance in it.

[Abagadro]

The reason 1 was good and 2 & 3 sucked was because the Warchowskis ripped off the script from the first one and then had to come up with the second and third.

[stray]

Then he decides he really just wants to take it over and make everyone him? WTF?

Smith died, then ended up coming back. The new resurrected Smith was (seemingly) without purpose. And according to the machines, a program without purpose must be deleted.

Smith didn't wanted to be deleted, so that put him at odds with his own kind.

Smith then realized that he did, in fact, have a new purpose: To destroy Neo.

The way he went about that was also his way to rid himself of the machine threat.



Anyways, that's simplifying it, I guess (and I'm probably far off to begin with...But that's basically how I see it).

edit:

The lack of exposition at the end really hurt the movie, IMO. Not because every tragic ending needs an explanation but because all the shit that led up to it previously told us nothing about what we needed to know in order to process it. The architect walking up to the Oracle at the end on the park bench... ghey. It was a whole bunch of sound and fury and loud obnoxious gun battles, but very little resolution and very little explanation of what the Matrix was and should be.

I thought the Architect's speech at the end of Reloaded explained (and set up for) a lot.

Actually, this touches on another point. There's far more exposition in the Matrix films than necessary really...It's just all clumped throughout the entire trilogy. From the Architect, the Merovingian, the Oracle, etc.. It's just not at the "very end" where it may have been easier to take in.

[HaemishM]

I did pay attention. I knew that his speech was the key. It's just that it really DIDN'T answer the questions, because we have to take what the Architect says at face value in order to believe that the questions are all answered with his speech.

The 3rd movie just threw things in to spin wheels, like that entire time in the train station. I mean, what was that about? It served no purpose, other than an excuse to put that annoying Frenchman back into the movie. Useless fucking character that was. The only redeeming thing out of that entire bit was seeing Monica Bellucci again. Everything else, a total waste.

I don't buy the "Smith was going to be deleted" thing. Or his newfound purpose to destroy Neo. It just rang hollow. The last two movies were a mess narratively.

[Merusk]

If anyone can think of anything of real value that was added by the recent films, I'd like to know. I would have much preferred that the first 3 films stand on their own as a trilogy which simply hinted at events of the last 3 films; instead, they seem to exist only to tell us everything we already knew, just in more detail.

Why, the midichlorians, of course!   :-D

No, you're right. You bring up the best point here, I think. The prequels weren't really necessary. A good waste of time perhaps (depending on the viewer), but still unnecessary.

No, they didn’t bring anything new to the table, and I'd argue they weren't meant to.  The new movies serve 2 purposes and do them well.  1) Providing more junk for SW geeks to collect and waste thousands of dollars on.  2) "Flesh-out" the story for the Ultra hardcore fans for step 1. That's why the majority of the populace thinks they suck balls. (Not that they don't from a filming perspective and didn't introduce huge plot holes/ inconsistencies.)

There's so much not explained and left out of the movies that ONLY hardcore freaks who've read all the books, novelizations, radio dramas, etc over the last 25 years would know.  At the same time, the geek who has that level of knowledge and is trying to fill some hole in their life with the SW Mythos (Folks in the Conan O'Brian Triumph video, I'm looking at you.) hated them because it took a few of the fan's preconceived notions and turned them on their ear.

 I'm pretty sure that's why I enjoyed them to some degree and don't have the visceral hatred of them that some of y'all seem to have.  They're campy 50s serials with all the bad acting and lines you'd expect.  Even the first 3 were badly written and acted, you've just let nostalgia gloss-over that bit.  I mean if they were so fucking great why did Sir Guiness get pissed when all he was remembered for was Ben Kenobi, and why does Harrison Ford get pissy to this day if too many references are made to Han Solo when he's being interviewed.
 

[SirBruce]

Just because the Empire had motivation to blow up the planet doesn't make it rational or right.

Correct, motivation doesn't determine moral judgement.  However, I was discussing motivation, not morality.  You misrepresented the motivation; I corrected it.  Following through with it still makes him unfun, but the motivation makes a big difference on the character development.  If he had killed people simply for amusement, then it would be really difficult to answer why he wouldn't redeemed himself at all in the end.  If, however, his motivations were some sort of obscene altruism, his objection to watching his son be tortured to death for what seemed to be the Emperor's personal pleasure was more plausible, as was his reason for killing the Emperor. 

No, again, I think this is completely backwards.  The fact he got obscene pleasure out of blowing up the planet is what makes his later redemption so compelling and epic; if he was simply a misguided man then the redemption is just another predictable Vietnam movie.

Bruce

[stray]

The 3rd movie just threw things in to spin wheels, like that entire time in the train station. I mean, what was that about?

Heh. More exposition, except in the beginning of the film. Sati (the little Indian girl) was the key to understanding everything, man! 

[Llava]

It's odd that such crappy movies can inspire such discussion.

[Rasix]

It's odd that such crappy movies can inspire such discussion.

Hah. You say this on a primarily MMORPG gaming driven site. We've embraced crap, boyo.

[HaemishM]

Embraced it? Fuck, we are ROLLING in it.

[Roac]

...that entire time in the train station. I mean, what was that about? It served no purpose, other than an excuse to put that annoying Frenchman back into the movie.

Er, then you didn't really get it that much.  On the philosophical front, Sati was a hugely important character, and this scene is where you learn about her and where she fits in.  There is also a bit of refleciton here; just as Smith can be isolated in the real world, so can Neo be isolated in the Matrix.  You can also draw some religious context, with Neo having his personality split and spending time in the train station equivalent to Christ's time in Hell, before his resurrection and salvation of Humanity.  You also have Sati as well as the station serving to context Neo's role/destiny.  Then you have the dialogue between Neo and the family to serve to clarify the role of the programs as Exiles.

And on and on...

[HaemishM]

That is the largest steaming pile of horseshit I've heard in reference to the Matrix movies. Ever.

The point of that scene was that people can be isolated in the Matrix? Sati's in one scene in the movie and that's supposed to be an important point? I know repetition can be boring, but fuck. Or was she the kid in the final scene? Because if she was, I missed it and I laugh at it. My brain had so totally shut down by the end I think I just glossed over who was sitting with her. It was just so fucking stupid.

If their intent was to make the train station mean anything, they failed. Horribly.

[Lum]

So, it's all about expectations. I went into Matrix 3 KNOWING that it would be full of nursery-school philosophy and eye candy. I went for the eye candy (the nursery school philosophy I get enough of from Internet message boards) and was not disappointed, as it had plenty of eye candy.

I'm looking at SW 3 (SW 6?) similarly. As far as storyline went, well, it ended with ROTJ. The first movie (or rather, Episode 1) was a kiddie movie. Adults hated it. Fine. It's not for them (and the 11 year old I saw it with loved it and immediately set about being as irritating as possible with his Jar Jar imitations for years thereafter. Sadly my force choke skill is low.) The second movie's story blew, but only because it tried to be a love story and failed thanks to Lucas apparently never being in an actual relationship or something. But it had good eye candy. The battle scenes were great. Ninja Yoda kicked ass.

It's all about what you expect going in. I expect lots of silly battles, over the top sword fighting, and some woozy exposition which will give me a chance to get a drink. I won't be disappointed!

[Riggswolfe]

Sati is shown several times over the course of the movie, and yes, that was her at the end, and yes, her journey was important to understanding the movie. She is essentially what made Neo realize that co-existence was the key.

[WindupAtheist]

I thought that was a great trailer. However, my expectations for the movie are still lower than dirt. I expect that since Lucas has not let go one iota of control, it will still have less story and good character development than most midget pr0n. I'm also positive he will take every liberty he can with continuity, bend my childhood over a table and have sweaty mansex with the broken shreds of my innocence.

Why?

Ewoks.

All jokes and winking "I know I'm a fanboy" declarations aside, I will say this much with utter certainty:  Whatever flaws the movie may have, the sickening cuteness factor of episodes 6 and 1 will not be one of them.  Like I said, it makes Empire look upbeat.

[Sobelius]

Sati is shown several times over the course of the movie, and yes, that was her at the end, and yes, her journey was important to understanding the movie. She is essentially what made Neo realize that co-existence was the key.

The following is taken from the Matrix Online web site (the community site called Data Node One). This is what they have to say to set the background for MxO:

News: A Brief History of The Matrix

The Matrix is an illusion. It appears to be America at the turn of the 21st century; a vast megacity and an adjacent mountain range. In truth it is a virtual, digital world that humans experience through feeds running directly to their nervous systems. These humans experience an artificial life in the Matrix, unaware of their real state.

In reality, the actual date is unknown, but it is believed to be a couple of centuries later. The proprietors of the Matrix are machines that have won a war with humankind. In the war the sky was “scorched,” denying them their source of energy, solar power. Instead, they now use sleeping humans, enclosed in liquid-filled pods on vast batteries, to generate heat that becomes electricity.

A few free humans, based in an underground city of Zion, resist the Machines and hope to defeat the Matrix system, which they see as a form of slavery. These free humans, too, can jack into the Matrix, by lurking close under the surface world in their hovercraft. But when they do, they are ruthlessly hunted down by Agents of the Machines. One can die in the Matrix.

A Hovercraft Captain named Morpheus has heard a prophecy that there is one who can control the Matrix reality by will alone. Morpheus Summons Neo and explains the true state of affairs. He thinks Neo, a young man awakened from the illusion and brought from his pod into the real world, is The One.

Neo’s powers awaken, and the battle escalates, revealing complications. Along with humans and Agents of the Machines in the Matrix, there are free, sentient programs – Exiles – enjoying life as humans in the virtual world.

The Exiles are varied. The Oracle is benign, and guides Morpheus and other humans in their quest. The Merovingian, aka the Frenchman, is a sybaritic gangster, commanding a host of human-formed programs with powers like that of ghosts, werewolves and other supernatural entities.
      
There’s also a wild card, Agent Smith. Instead of being destroyed by Neo in an epic confrontation, as he seemed to be, he has become an independent virus-like program who can replicate himself, and overwrite others -- a legion of lethal clones in sunglasses.

Neo encounters the crowning complexity when he meets the Architect, the program who designed the Matrix. The Architect reveals there were previous iterations of the Matrix that failed, and even previous Ones like Neo – and a bloody cycle of destruction and renewal of the Matrix, Zion and humanity is inescapable.

Neo won’t accept this. But first he saves the woman he loves, Trinity, from death, by spectacularly reaching into her torso and massaging her virtual heart back into pulsing life. Ironically, it is Neo’s capacity for love that makes him the mightiest warrior, the One.

The crisis is imminent. The Matrix is failing because of Agent Smith’s viral takeover of every individual in it. It’s cleansing, and the destruction of Zion by physical machines, is almost underway.

Neo does the impossible; he and Trinity break out of the underground and fly a hovercraft to the city of Machines on the surface world. He proposes a deal: he’ll defeat Smith, whose cancerous growth threatens all the Machines, in exchange for peace between the Machines and the free humans. The deal is struck.

Neo does destroy Smith, with an assist from the Oracle (who had allowed Smith to overwrite her with curious equanimity – what did she have up her sleeve?), in a battle worthy of ancient gods of the sky. The Matrix is saved. Zion is saved. The Machine Civilization is saved.

A truce is made – free humans (“Redpills”) can even awaken the sleepers (“Bluepills”), although too much of this would threaten the Matrix. It’s one of the ambiguities the Matrix films boldly allowed to stand. Another: Neo’s fate. He seems to have died in the battle with Smith. But the Machines do not return his corpse.

This disturbs some people, and their actions set the story of The Matrix Online in motion…

Posted by The Matrix Online Team, 02-24-05

The one area that makes no sense to me "The Architect reveals there were previous iterations of the Matrix that failed, and even previous Ones like Neo – and a bloody cycle of destruction and renewal of the Matrix, Zion and humanity is inescapable." I can understand multiple iterations of the Matrix, given it's a programmed illusion. But the cycle of Zion/human destruction -- I guess they're saying that the machines always wipe out the real Zion, reload a new Matrix, and then Zion crops up again after a while, kind of like fire ant mounds reappear after you think you've gotten rid of the ants. OK. I guess I get it now.

Given this background, I could go along with MxO and find out what sources of interest and drama might unfold.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh, clipped from IMDB:

Francis Ford Coppola suggested Christopher Neil to George Lucas to be the dialogue coach. Lucas said that given the emotional intensity of Revenge of the Sith, and the fact that he rarely has time to converse with the actors, it would be ideal for someone else to be there to get the strongest performances possible.

[Margalis]

The original matrix movie had a sense of wonder and ended with "what's next?" What WAS next was boring exposition, bad dialog, giant CGI robots, etc. I don't think they really knew where they wanted to go after the first movie. By the time 3 rolled around it had become an incredibly generic story. Angry asian captain dude using poorly designed mechs to fight off evil robots - yawn.

[Shockeye]

Oh, clipped from IMDB:

Francis Ford Coppola suggested Christopher Neil to George Lucas to be the dialogue coach. Lucas said that given the emotional intensity of Revenge of the Sith, and the fact that he rarely has time to converse with the actors, it would be ideal for someone else to be there to get the strongest performances possible.

Lucas would use all CGI actors if he could.

[schild]

Lucas would use all CGI actors if he could.

Hell, he'd use MUPPETS if it meant more action figures. Like Cabbage Patch Jar-Jar.

[HaemishM]

Oh, clipped from IMDB:

Francis Ford Coppola suggested Christopher Neil to George Lucas to be the dialogue coach. Lucas said that given the emotional intensity of Revenge of the Sith, and the fact that he rarely has time to converse with the actors, it would be ideal for someone else to be there to get the strongest performances possible.

Yeah, I mean, after all, why the fuck would a director want to converse with actors or anything?

[CmdrSlack]

Oh, clipped from IMDB:

Francis Ford Coppola suggested Christopher Neil to George Lucas to be the dialogue coach. Lucas said that given the emotional intensity of Revenge of the Sith, and the fact that he rarely has time to converse with the actors, it would be ideal for someone else to be there to get the strongest performances possible.

Yeah, I mean, after all, why the fuck would a director want to converse with actors or anything?

Well, it's not like the title of "director" implies that he actually speaks with the actors to, you know, direct.