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Author Topic: Picard  (Read 9925 times)
Reg
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Reply #105 on: May 19, 2020, 05:48:53 PM

I'd love that. DS9 is the Star Trek series with the fewest followups. Voyager was a tub of crap compared to DS9 and their crew just goes on and on and on.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #106 on: May 19, 2020, 06:05:46 PM

Considering the last time I saw Avery Brooks he seemed like he was out of his damned mind (The Captains) I'm not sure how that would go.

That said, I think DS9 got the most definitive ending of the series between TNG and ENT.  It doesn't feel like it needs to be revisited.  TNG didn't either if it had actually ended with All Good Things....  I think the existence of Nemesis made this show much more appealing because...that's not a good way to go out.  DS9 went out rather well.

Plus, Rene Auberjonois is dead.  As is Aron Eisenberg. 

I guess if Worf is going to be in the next season it'd be natural for them to pick up some DS9 threads, but I don't feel any great need for a continuation of that story.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
luckton
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Reply #107 on: May 19, 2020, 06:58:47 PM

If you need a DS9 follow-up, read the novels. Good stuff.

I don't think S2 Picard needs to do more 90s Trek-reminiscing. It was fine for S1 to help re-establish things and hand-shake to the modern era. Let's go on a new adventure.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
jgsugden
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Reply #108 on: May 19, 2020, 07:16:52 PM

If you need a DS9 follow-up, read the novels. Good stuff.

I don't think S2 Picard needs to do more 90s Trek-reminiscing. It was fine for S1 to help re-establish things and hand-shake to the modern era. Let's go on a new adventure.
If Patrick Stewart can keep going, this show will bring back: Q, all the original cast INCLUDING Denise Crosby and Wil Wheaton, and various characters from every other show, including Enterprise.  They'll probably find Archer's fucking beagle.

Good money is on someone on the ship having a connection to a TNS character.  They're going to mix the new in with the old.  I'm not saying it will be the best thing for them to do, but they'll do it.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Reg
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Reply #109 on: May 19, 2020, 08:38:06 PM

Whatever they decide to do I'm interested in seeing where Picard goes next.

Note: I don't see them ever taking Wil Wheaton back. He seems almost pathetically desperate to get back on Trek but he must have pissed them off somehow from the way they're treating him.
Draegan
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Reply #110 on: May 20, 2020, 08:47:35 AM

Stewart was on the View and asked Whoopie to come back.

Picard S1 was mediocre at best if you can ignore all the plot points from all the previous episodes and only concentrate in the literal moment.

It was so bad RLM made a Mr Plinkett about it. It's like 1.5 hours long.
Khaldun
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Reply #111 on: May 20, 2020, 08:58:37 AM

We were joking that the deus ex machina in the last episode of Picard was gonna be Wesley.

Considering how he left, you could in fact actually do an interesting return for him. Either Picard was surprisingly indifferent to Wesley going off with a highly advanced pedophile and that comes home to roost or maybe Wesley ends up having some other kind of interesting world-building thing going on, some other loose end.

With DS9, you could probably handle Avery Brooks being a complete pothead weirdo in his portrayal of Sisko considering that Sisko is still caught up in all the weirdness of the wormhole aliens and their enemies etc.

I do like the idea of the show being used to do some better world-building and to really engage the rougher edges of the Trek universe. A return to the Klingons and Worf seems like one promising direction but they'd have to decide what to do about Discovery's colossal fuckup of the Klingons. I'd love for them to think about a genuinely alien crewmember--a Gorn, an Andorian, hell how about a Horta?

Maybe something that dives way more deeply into the Q and the entire trope of "godlike aliens" that threads through Trek. I really wish Voyager had been something like Vernor Vinge's space operas--that as the Voyager went deeper into the Quadrant, closer to the galactic core, it was intruding into the space of more ancient 'godlike' civilizations that are terrified of the Borg's ascension (hence why Q accelerated the Federation's encounter with the Borg--because he and his compatriots actually believe in the potential of the Federation to overcome what various 'gods' cannot or will not confront)--that it was almost like the 'fast zone' of Vinge's novels. I could get behind a season arc that fleshed all of that side of Trek out a bit more and made it more complex and twisty and coherent.
eldaec
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Reply #112 on: May 20, 2020, 03:40:01 PM

I think Q is too off the charts weird for Picard. Despite it also being a gaping hole for Q not to show up and take the opportunity to fuck around with him.

It did best looking at how characters that are not star fleet or equivalent fit into the world. It needs to stay grounded to do that.

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jgsugden
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Reply #113 on: May 20, 2020, 03:55:34 PM

We were joking that the deus ex machina in the last episode of Picard was gonna be Wesley.

Considering how he left, you could in fact actually do an interesting return for him. Either Picard was surprisingly indifferent to Wesley going off with a highly advanced pedophile and that comes home to roost or maybe Wesley ends up having some other kind of interesting world-building thing going on, some other loose end...
He has a blink and you'll miss it scene at the wedding in Nemesis.  Apparently, even the Traveler wanted to get rid of the kid.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Abagadro
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Reply #114 on: May 20, 2020, 07:36:51 PM

Considering the people who are making (re: completely fucking up) Picard its funny to posit that they may come up with interesting sci-fi stories rather than more grim-dark, cookie-cutter space garbage.

I though the set-up was good but it went to shit really fast and then went sub-shit in the last few episodes.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Khaldun
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Reply #115 on: May 20, 2020, 08:39:36 PM

I like Chabon as a writer and I actually liked most of this. I wasn't wild about the wrap-up--the planet of the synthetics looked to me too much like the planet of the Extremely Northern California People in Star Trek: Insurrection. That was where they really needed to whip out the imagination--what is a small culture of all synthetic people like? etc. The Borg-synthetic connection was also shockingly unexplored--they seemed to be setting that up thematically and then, pffft, nothing.
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Reply #116 on: May 20, 2020, 10:53:07 PM

I think there will be a lot more borg / synthetic in the coming seasons.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Draegan
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Reply #117 on: May 21, 2020, 09:33:20 AM

I hope they kill this show and start making Star Trek again. Like just kill the timeline and move forward 50-100 years and start over again with slightly better technology and exploring again. You can travel farther and faster now so like different quadrants and stuff. You can make up new factions etc.
jgsugden
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Reply #118 on: May 21, 2020, 09:41:30 AM

They already have the problem of technology being too advanced.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #119 on: May 21, 2020, 11:02:19 AM

I think I've mentioned it before somewhere, but I remember Stracynzski talking to fans on an old Babylon 5 message board when B5 first came out and the usual contentious subject of whether DS9 was trying to imitate B5 came up. Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

I thought that was a fucking great proposal, but that it was essentially a reboot. Voyager could have done most of that--damage the ship badly enough that they don't have transporters, replicators, holodecks, and that something doesn't work right about the translator, make them have to trade, etc. But even then, not quite what JMS was proposing.

I suppose you could do something like Star Trek: Andromeda--an experimental drive takes a Federation ship (on purpose) to a neighboring galaxy; the drive has to collect dark matter very slowly via a scoop for five years before it can be used to return. No replicators because something something technobabble; the translators don't work until several years of contacts produce enough commonalities; life is not "humanoids with bumpy foreheads" but some really really different organisms, societies, etc.
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Reply #120 on: May 21, 2020, 12:10:36 PM

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

It's all fun and games until the nazi space lizards show up.

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jgsugden
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Reply #121 on: May 21, 2020, 12:47:09 PM

... Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator." ...
So you're saying the stole 2 show ideas from him because that was the essential pitch for Enterprise. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #122 on: May 21, 2020, 01:40:04 PM

Pretty much--that was how some fans looked at it (and why JMS said that the lawyers on retainer for B5 told him to stop talking online about ideas he had).
Samwise
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Reply #123 on: May 21, 2020, 02:16:39 PM

There's also a lot of overlap there with Voyager, for that matter.

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Draegan
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Reply #124 on: May 21, 2020, 02:29:16 PM

I think I've mentioned it before somewhere, but I remember Stracynzski talking to fans on an old Babylon 5 message board when B5 first came out and the usual contentious subject of whether DS9 was trying to imitate B5 came up. Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

I thought that was a fucking great proposal, but that it was essentially a reboot. Voyager could have done most of that--damage the ship badly enough that they don't have transporters, replicators, holodecks, and that something doesn't work right about the translator, make them have to trade, etc. But even then, not quite what JMS was proposing.

I suppose you could do something like Star Trek: Andromeda--an experimental drive takes a Federation ship (on purpose) to a neighboring galaxy; the drive has to collect dark matter very slowly via a scoop for five years before it can be used to return. No replicators because something something technobabble; the translators don't work until several years of contacts produce enough commonalities; life is not "humanoids with bumpy foreheads" but some really really different organisms, societies, etc.

Didn't Stargate do something like that?
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Reply #125 on: May 21, 2020, 03:49:45 PM

They already have the problem of technology being too advanced.

Yeah, no writers could possibly work with advanced technology.  That’s why the Culture series is such shit.  🙄
luckton
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Reply #126 on: May 25, 2020, 12:50:06 PM

Didn't Stargate do something like that?

Yes, and it was beautiful.

But apparently the approach didn't get the ratings they wanted. Plus they also hit the same problem as Star Trek; too much of a thing/saturation diminished the value of the brand overall.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Khaldun
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Reply #127 on: May 26, 2020, 04:41:14 PM

I think Picard shows you can bring the Federation and Starfleet into view a bit more and benefit from it. But yes, if they really want to do that, and not cover a ship or a station "out there", they've just got to go more in the direction of Banks. What does a better, largely post-scarcity society look like? Especially right at this moment in the Trek timeline--they've had a bad scare (the Mars attack) and now they know it a misdirect. But they've also had to deal with the umpteenth infiltration of Starfleet--Tal Shiar, the goobers from "Conspiracy", the Founders--which should give them all a lot of pause. They've got really incoherent civilizational ideas about life (synthetic life bad or ok to use as a tool even before the Mars attack; but near-AI disembodied computers largely good or ok). Their ideas about pluralism have the same classic problems that our ideas do (Starfleet is ok with your values and ideas as long as they're within the same narrow band as Starfleet/Federation orthodoxy, but stray much outside and you get told to go mind your own business back on your own world). All of this is super relevant to the present day, so they can keep the tradition of using Trek to comment on and think about our moment.
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