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Title: Picard
Post by: eldaec on May 23, 2019, 03:04:42 PM
https://youtu.be/IGijGIZrGKc

Show about a wine making guy.

Has Patrick Stewart, how bad can it be?


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Hawkbit on May 23, 2019, 03:13:52 PM
I'm excited to see what they do here and will sub to CBSflix for this day one. I'm hoping to knock out the back episodes of the new Star Trek series with that sub, too.

I don't really think of myself as a Trekkie, but TNG is in my memories the same way Mr Rogers or Sesame Street is.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Samwise on May 23, 2019, 03:16:29 PM
If it's a character-driven show with a retired Picard puttering around in a vineyard, that actually sounds quite a bit better than him doing space action schlock.  I don't know what will actually happen on the show but I'm more interested in finding out than in watching the latest movie in the JJverse or whatever is currently representing the brand.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Mandella on May 23, 2019, 03:20:32 PM
Maybe it'll be a talk show where he interviews other characters from the various series?

 :grin:


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on May 23, 2019, 03:27:30 PM
I think the trailer implies the show is mostly about the bad thing that happened involving spaceships 15 years ago, which as this is supposed to be 2397, would mean events a few years after the films of which we do not speak.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: HaemishM on May 23, 2019, 04:18:27 PM
Has Patrick Stewart, how bad can it be?

I will remind you that Patrick Stewart played the poop emoji in the Emoji Movie so... that bad.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 23, 2019, 04:42:19 PM
I almost feel like my joke prediction that this would be Star Trek: Chateau Picard is coming true.

"Next week on Star Trek: Chateau Picard, Jean-Luc and his old friend Admiral Data race against time to find a cure for Andorian phylloxera before it completely destroys the oldest cabernet vines on the east ridge. In the meantime, a sinister plan to replace Chateau Picard wines with Cardassian kanar at Sisko's Creole Kitchen unfolds. Guest-starring Brent Spiner and Cirroc Loften."


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on May 23, 2019, 05:45:39 PM
Has Patrick Stewart, how bad can it be?

I will remind you that Patrick Stewart played the poop emoji in the Emoji Movie so... that bad.

I had... successfully forgotten that....


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ceryse on May 23, 2019, 06:56:51 PM
Supposedly this isn't actually connected to TNG at all, but a different timeline Picard (rights issues or something weird, I don't remember exactly what the deal is, just that there were a lot of rights issues surrounding Star Trek and that this wasn't a TNG sequel).

It could be interesting, but I'm not that interested, personally. Picard was never my thing when it came to Star Trek. Has a better shot of being good than Discovery (which I guess got better? Don't know, I dropped it pretty quick in disgust/boredom).


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Cyrrex on May 24, 2019, 04:16:38 AM
"Tell us, why did you leave Starfleet, Admiral?"

"Uh, because I'm like 95 years-old"

I am not sure I like this idea, but then again I have no idea what it is.  I am a Picard/TNG fan more than I am a trekkie as such, but I am not sure this is something we need.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on May 24, 2019, 04:37:38 AM
Supposedly this isn't actually connected to TNG at all, but a different timeline Picard (rights issues or something weird, I don't remember exactly what the deal is, just that there were a lot of rights issues surrounding Star Trek and that this wasn't a TNG sequel).

It could be interesting, but I'm not that interested, personally. Picard was never my thing when it came to Star Trek. Has a better shot of being good than Discovery (which I guess got better? Don't know, I dropped it pretty quick in disgust/boredom).

Its murky but from what I can tell, CBS has complete control of Star Trek TV rights (which includes streaming).  Paramount the movie studio has rights over feature movies which are now basically dead after the Abrams/Lin trilogy although Tarantino still wants to make one.

So this show is well within the TNG timeline/continuity.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ceryse on May 24, 2019, 01:46:57 PM

Its murky but from what I can tell, CBS has complete control of Star Trek TV rights (which includes streaming).  Paramount the movie studio has rights over feature movies which are now basically dead after the Abrams/Lin trilogy although Tarantino still wants to make one.

So this show is well within the TNG timeline/continuity.

Sort of. From what I understand the Picard series will be incorporating the destruction of Romulus from the J.J. Abrams movies. So.. part of the Kelvin timeline, but only sorta? https://www.thewrap.com/star-trek-picard-everything-we-know-about-patrick-stewart-return/

There's also been rumours (no idea if true/false or confirmed/denied) that Picard's Enterprise crew in this new-ish(?) timeline was not the same as the TNG crew (thus meaning there won't be a crew reunion of any sorts on the show in the way some fans seem to be hoping).


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: schild on May 24, 2019, 03:20:25 PM
this is weird


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Rishathra on May 24, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
Is it just me, or is that voice over just horrible?  It's so over-dramatic and fake sounding.  And if it's meant to be someone actually speaking to Picard, that just makes it worse.  Nobody in any universe real or imagined would speak to someone like that.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 24, 2019, 08:04:15 PM
The only way it feels right is if it's some kind of dystopian or inhuman questioning. If that's meant to be an actual human, it's really off and really clumsy.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Soln on May 24, 2019, 08:30:32 PM
Itís probably just a poor trailer.  Discovery had a bad teaser. Stewart will be good to great even with drek.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on May 25, 2019, 09:55:06 PM
It's Patrick Stewart. It's Star Trek. The floor is entertaining, the ceiling is classic.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Miguel on May 26, 2019, 11:29:07 AM
Maybe for the season ender we'll find out how many lights he sees?


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Surlyboi on May 30, 2019, 12:30:54 AM

Its murky but from what I can tell, CBS has complete control of Star Trek TV rights (which includes streaming).  Paramount the movie studio has rights over feature movies which are now basically dead after the Abrams/Lin trilogy although Tarantino still wants to make one.

So this show is well within the TNG timeline/continuity.

Sort of. From what I understand the Picard series will be incorporating the destruction of Romulus from the J.J. Abrams movies. So.. part of the Kelvin timeline, but only sorta? https://www.thewrap.com/star-trek-picard-everything-we-know-about-patrick-stewart-return/

There's also been rumours (no idea if true/false or confirmed/denied) that Picard's Enterprise crew in this new-ish(?) timeline was not the same as the TNG crew (thus meaning there won't be a crew reunion of any sorts on the show in the way some fans seem to be hoping).

If it's post the destruction of Romulus, it should still be in the prime universe.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 30, 2019, 07:29:35 AM
You know, the easy way out for them on the ST: Reboot is that Nero and Prime Spock travelled to an alternate universe--not the Mirror Universe, just a different one--and mistook it for a simple time jump.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Samwise on May 30, 2019, 09:20:48 AM
We already established in the TNG episode "Parallels" that every time anyone makes a decision it creates a new parallel universe, so you can say that any given episode occurs in its own reality if you want.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 31, 2019, 11:31:29 AM
Yeah, except there's a lot of canon episodes that seem to contradict that (not to mention a Starfleet agency that runs around trying to keep the timeline from being damaged).


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on June 01, 2019, 11:54:19 AM
It's Patrick Stewart. It's Star Trek. The floor is entertaining, the ceiling is classic.

You say this like the TNG films never happened.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Samwise on June 01, 2019, 11:57:36 AM
It's Patrick Stewart. It's Star Trek. The floor is entertaining, the ceiling is classic.

You say this like the TNG films never happened.

If Picard has his dune buggy and Worf's purple space bazooka, I'm all in.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on June 01, 2019, 12:01:18 PM
You know, the easy way out for them on the ST: Reboot is that Nero and Prime Spock travelled to an alternate universe--not the Mirror Universe, just a different one--and mistook it for a simple time jump.

Or just never mention Nero or Prime Spock or JJ Abrams.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on October 06, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
Pretty awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FySrgrKJguE


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on October 07, 2019, 02:38:19 AM
Hmmm. To be honest it gave me a TNG movie vibe.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on October 07, 2019, 07:41:21 AM
I'm just assuming the TNG people are just in the first episode for 10 minutes. Good trailer though.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on October 07, 2019, 09:57:19 AM
I thought it was pretty great. I'm genuinely interested now.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: 01101010 on October 07, 2019, 11:19:34 AM
As a child of a ToS Trekkie and surviving a childhood of conventions, I became a huge fan of TNG because reasons. This trailer definitely has my attention, but CBS Access can still go fuck itself.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: schild on October 07, 2019, 11:28:24 AM
oh wow Fan Service: The Next Generation


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Shannow on October 07, 2019, 12:12:21 PM
oh wow Fan Service: The Next Generation

Working as intended. (still won't get me to subscribe to CBS though)


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: TheWalrus on October 07, 2019, 01:36:59 PM
He named the dog Number One.  :grin:


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on October 08, 2019, 07:57:09 AM
Initial wobble for me was the heavy handed Data scene.

But it properly lost me with no context 7 of 9 pew pewing the corridor with primary colour lighting and telling us she was a TNG movie rather than TNG series character.

By the Riker part where they tried to play back the whole Farpoint fan service thing I was long gone.

Assuming this is on UK Netflix I'm going to watch it anyway. Low expectations can't hurt.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Sir T on October 09, 2019, 12:34:14 PM
7 of 9 was Voyager porn. There was nothing of TNG in her. Picard would never have known her. The only reason she would be there is FAAAAN SERVICE!!!


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Trippy on October 09, 2019, 12:50:39 PM
Voyager returned a year before the events of Nemesis. It's very likely Picard did know who she was while he was still commanding the Enterprise.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on October 09, 2019, 03:41:08 PM
I expect he's also had a lot of contact with "Admiral" Janeway over the years discussing the Borg. They're the two leading experts right? I figure he met Seven through that.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on October 09, 2019, 03:48:53 PM
I have no issue 7 of 9 being in this. It seems like a better idea than TNG character.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ruvaldt on October 09, 2019, 05:19:06 PM
Considering Picard and 7's unique history with the Borg, both being part of the collective at one point, I'd think it actually stranger if they didn't know each by this time.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on October 10, 2019, 06:50:48 AM
7 of 9 was Voyager porn. There was nothing of TNG in her. Picard would never have known her. The only reason she would be there is FAAAAN SERVICE!!!

Star Trek: The Next Generation (2364-2370)
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (2369-2375)
Star Trek: Voyager (2371-2378)

Voyager returns to earth only 8 years after TNG ends or whatever that means. So is Picard like 20 years in the future from then so it's like 2390?

I'm not a huge trekkie but I just googled this.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 10, 2019, 11:29:22 AM
7 of 9 was Voyager porn. There was nothing of TNG in her. Picard would never have known her. The only reason she would be there is FAAAAN SERVICE!!!

There were definite elements of fan service in the character but the actress was good and they gave her some good storylines eventually. They didn't turn the fan service to 11 until Enterprise with the Vulcan constantly getting rubbed down with oil or whatever.

That said, 7 of 9 could easily know Picard. They have a lot in common with the whole Borg thing. Honestly, it'd be weird if they hadn't worked together. They are probably the two that scream the loudest anytime the Borg poke their heads up. I could also see them giving speeches at Starfleet Academy about the Borg and meeting that way.

Not that any of this matters, I'm not getting CBS All Access. But this is a good time to ask, what is people's experience with using VPN to watch Netflix and/or Amazon Prime "in a different country." Do you just select, say, England then log in and and it goes "oh, you're in England now, here are the shows you can watch in England."


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ironwood on October 10, 2019, 11:52:12 AM
Finally caught the trailer.

It feels dirty and wrong that I'm interested in this.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: HaemishM on October 10, 2019, 11:53:55 AM
Not that any of this matters, I'm not getting CBS All Access. But this is a good time to ask, what is people's experience with using VPN to watch Netflix and/or Amazon Prime "in a different country." Do you just select, say, England then log in and and it goes "oh, you're in England now, here are the shows you can watch in England."

That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through to watch Star Trek The Old Generation.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Trippy on October 10, 2019, 12:18:58 PM
Not that any of this matters, I'm not getting CBS All Access. But this is a good time to ask, what is people's experience with using VPN to watch Netflix and/or Amazon Prime "in a different country." Do you just select, say, England then log in and and it goes "oh, you're in England now, here are the shows you can watch in England."
Yes that's how it works except that Netflix tries to detect VPNs so not all services will be able to connect properly and many don't have good enough bandwidth to handle that kind of streaming load so you'll need to do some research to figure out which ones work well with Netflix/Amazon Prime.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on October 10, 2019, 01:26:35 PM
Yeah. I tried accessing PIA through the London server and Netflix just laughed at me and kept giving me the strictly Canadian shows.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on January 23, 2020, 11:03:41 AM
Anyone watch this yet?  Reviews are not great so far.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Trippy on January 23, 2020, 12:43:08 PM
I don't know, the review I've seen so far have been positive. The main complaint is that it's a slow burn.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on January 23, 2020, 01:06:36 PM
I enjoyed it. I think we've at least confirmed the identity of the girl now. Trippy's right though. Having to put up with a slow once a week reveal of a streaming series is very irritating.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on January 23, 2020, 01:54:55 PM
Folks I know who like TNG and DS9 are reporting liking it a lot. Gonna watch tonight.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Brolan on January 23, 2020, 05:51:24 PM
I saw it and itís kind of a mess.  Plot is all over the place and very rushed.  They went though about 3 episodes of plot in one show.  Having the action adventure hero being an old man hindered by age is just weird.

Sadly it reminds me of STD.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Trippy on January 23, 2020, 06:01:43 PM
Sadly it reminds me of STD.
That sounds bad, might want to see a doctor :awesome_for_real:

But seriously it's the same group of people that did/do Discovery so that's not surprising.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Surlyboi on January 23, 2020, 07:59:00 PM
Discovery has been really good.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on January 24, 2020, 12:13:26 AM
I saw it and itís kind of a mess.  Plot is all over the place and very rushed.  They went though about 3 episodes of plot in one show.  Having the action adventure hero being an old man hindered by age is just weird.

Sadly it reminds me of STD.

Wut?

I don't agree with this at all.  They have to establish some stuff, but they didn't really move through much "plot".  It set up where things stand, created the stakes, and set the action in motion.

I really enjoyed it and my wife (a TNG and Jean-Luc super-fan) loved it.  As for "reviews" it has a 93 percent on RT.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on January 24, 2020, 06:03:12 AM
Saw the first one, looks good.

I'm not usually a massive fan of the 'jumping in with known characters after they've suffered trauma but barely tell us what it is' format. But it is well enough done I got over it. They gave me just about enough.

Stewart himself is very much holding it together, and 'Picard, but an old person' was good on its own.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on January 24, 2020, 07:29:17 AM
I only watched Discovery for the first half of the first season. I forgot to watch the rest. I should probably go back.

I'm looking forward to watching Picard when I get time. Glad to see it's decent at the least.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on January 24, 2020, 09:50:45 AM
I hated the first 2 episodes of Discovery so much that I didn't watch for the rest of the season. I started hearing good things about it and tried it again just before season 2 started. I skipped the first 2 episodes and found that the show improved steadily after that.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on January 24, 2020, 09:55:50 AM
Discovery's next season has a tough challenge in front of it, though. They are going to have to do what Voyager couldn't, which is imagine a setting that is still "Trek" but that works differently enough that it feels alien both to the characters and to us.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Brolan on January 24, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
Yeah, the recent manipulation of the audience scores for TROS tells you canít believe anything from RT.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on January 24, 2020, 07:32:50 PM
I hated the first 2 episodes of Discovery so much that I didn't watch for the rest of the season. I started hearing good things about it and tried it again just before season 2 started. I skipped the first 2 episodes and found that the show improved steadily after that.

The first 2 episodes are really not even a little bit representative of the show for... reasons.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on January 25, 2020, 07:32:16 AM
So far the absolute worst, almost unforgiveably bad, blunder for Discovery is all the stuff on the Klingons. If they'd stuck with the standard make-up and kept them a bit closer to canon, it would have been fine. But they made an ugly mess that made it impossible to figure out what the relationship between Discovery and *any* other Trek is. Season 2 showed they'd figured out how to slide into canon and be fun in their own way (mostly).


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on January 25, 2020, 02:26:55 PM
If the worst thing in a show is make up, they were doing ok.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on January 25, 2020, 05:39:12 PM
Eh, it wasn't *just* makeup.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 25, 2020, 06:33:04 PM
The Klingons is why I did a hard pass on Discovery. I'm not a fan of prequels that come 40-50 years after the original show or movie. But to utterly redo an iconic alien race at the same time is just asinine.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on January 25, 2020, 09:32:48 PM
Yeah, the recent manipulation of the audience scores for TROS tells you canít believe anything from RT.

I was citing the profession reviewer's percentage not audience.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: schild on January 25, 2020, 11:10:02 PM
Folks I know who like TNG and DS9 are reporting liking it a lot. Gonna watch tonight.

I have absolutely no dog in this race, but of course they do.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ruvaldt on January 26, 2020, 12:14:32 AM
Yeah, as a person who grew up watching TNG/DS9, I'm shamelessly in the tank.

I thought this was good.  It's even better considering that Nemesis will no longer be the last depiction of Picard in television/film.  To that end, I'm glad we're getting a proper send off of the TNG crew, and even some others of the era.  Even if this show never reaches those heights, and I don't expect it to, it looks like we'll get a decent yarn and a final look at characters a lot of us grew up with.  This show also seems to be embracing the morals/message of Roddenberry's Trek more than other NuTrek shows/films, which could be fun.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on January 26, 2020, 04:06:04 AM
Likely because there was a conspicuous lack of Rick Berman in the credits.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Trippy on January 31, 2020, 02:30:35 PM
First episode is up (temporarily apparently) on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PPm5l3o2zw


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on January 31, 2020, 04:07:20 PM
I have liked it. It feels more like good TNG than the movies did (even though it's drawing on Nemesis and the JJA Trek, for pete's sake).

But you know, when you connect it with Discovery's 2nd season and all that stuff on Control, there's kind of an interesting and not terribly coherent history taking shape of how the Federation has related to AI and synthetic life. I almost want them to do some world-building to make it all make sense in some kind of grand unified theory. Like what if the Borg are sort of like Skynet--always putting pressure from some kind of "event horizon" of the possible future to push civilizations towards making AIs and androids and then getting those to turn towards the Borg. Maybe that's why Kirk was always blowing up sentient computers--he and Spock (who fought Control directly!) have a secret directive from Starfleet to always destroy sentient AIs if possible. Maybe that's why Daystrom was sent to the Enterprise to test M-5: so Spock could quietly sabotage M-5.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on February 02, 2020, 10:06:48 AM
I saw the pilot.  It was enjoyable for what it was, but it was not Trek.  Star Trek and TNG were about the hope for the future.  Star Fleet was a success story.  These depictions are of a government that can't be trusted.  It is cynical and devisive. 

It would be great to see someone actually make a Star Trek show that features a Star Fleet that inspired people rather one that reinforced the  pessimism and pain we celebrate.  When TNG hit the airwaves, it was a counterpoint to the negative depictions of greed and fascism of the 80s.  I wish someone would have the guts to do it again today.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 02, 2020, 11:20:40 AM
Some of the writers for the first two seasons of TNG complained that Gene Roddenberry's understanding of how to do optimism was so intellectually shallow and phony that they weren't really able to write compelling plots or characters. I think it was Ron Moore who argued that rather than contesting Reaganism, in some ways Roddenberry's version of the Federation and Starfleet was so plastic and falsely anodyne that it actually echoed Reaganism--it was the optimism of the boardroom. It was the kind of optimism that a human resources department has: trust exercises, positive thinking, everybody's special and valued. Every time the writers tried to create any kind of tension or conflict between characters--or a conflict within a character that was more than just a temporary circumstance of a single episode plot--he would shut them down on the argument that in the near-perfect future of the Federation, people didn't have conflicts like that any more. (He let them have Worf be the character who wasn't perfect yet--but also that meant that Worf always had to be wrong in his recommendations.)

Also, bracket to one side Roddenberry's dirty-old-manism--I keep waiting for someone to really give him the MeToo treatment. Stuff like Lt. Ilia, planet of the bald people who fuck everyone; the Ferengi, who want women nude all the time; the sex cult planet where everyone wore almost nothing; the femdom planet where Riker is assigned six mistresses, etc., that's all straight from Roddenberry, along with stories of how he pretty much put the moves on most of the women around him or told them dirty stories all the time.

The TNG that everyone likes was only possible when Roddenberry stepped away from it. And the TNG that everyone likes began to make the Federation actually earn its optimistic reputation in a more human way. That's the thread that has continued through into DS9: that it's not easy to make a better civilization, to have progress.

I want Trek to be optimistic but I don't want that to be treacle or to be shallow. I want drama; I want struggle. I want conflict that is not just "Good liberals vs. misguided aliens with bumpy foreheads". So it's right and proper that the Federation should have to struggle against its weaknesses and contradictions. I don't mind if this show eventually has Starfleet and the Federation coming out looking like they represent a better world. I do mind if that's unearned or uninteresting.

As a sidebar, though, I wouldn't mind if it also ended up with Starfleet being a mite less vulnerable to infiltration, and some kind of command hierarchy that doesn't habitually promote the worst and weakest people to authority. That's been a consistent hallmark of Trek all the way back and while it's as funny in its way as red-shirt deaths, it's also kind of head-scratching *particularly* when it happens in the most upbeat and simplistically utopian eras in Trek history.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 02, 2020, 02:02:43 PM
It was definitely star trek - you could tell because it said 'star trek' and everything.

I think the reason people say silly things like 'this star trek show is not star trek' about this and Discovery because they heavily stress character point of view to an extent only DS9 came close to before.

But nothing in Picard so far really changes the principles that TNG worked to. There is a legitimate problem. More than one group appears to have good faith answers of varying degrees of rightness and the show seems like it is going to explore the extent of how right they are with some incidental pew pew and soap opera along the way. DS9's Maquis and religious nutters already showed us that politics is still a thing in star trek. And if you are going to make a show about how we should all act like grown ups in 2020, it really should be about internal and not international politics else what the fuck are you doing.

I don't mind if this show eventually has Starfleet and the Federation coming out looking like they represent a better world. I do mind if that's unearned or uninteresting.

Exactly - you make the show about how it is hard and takes competence to represent a better world, you don't just rely on 'its good because my side say so', almost all good trek does this.

I'm guessing in the end the good guys are going to help the federation do the right thing. Obviously.

Some of the writers for the first two seasons of TNG complained that Gene Roddenberry's understanding of how to do optimism was so intellectually shallow and phony that they weren't really able to write compelling plots or characters. I think it was Ron Moore who argued that rather than contesting Reaganism, in some ways Roddenberry's version of the Federation and Starfleet was so plastic and falsely anodyne that it actually echoed Reaganism--it was the optimism of the boardroom. It was the kind of optimism that a human resources department has: trust exercises, positive thinking, everybody's special and valued.

To fair to Roddenberry's box, it is also the reason TNG avoided falling into manufactured conflict or plot by incompetence - which other trek occasionally falls victim to. Being so strict early on meant TNG had to earn their conflict right through the run, and as a result actually looked like a bunch of smart people trying to solve a hard problem all the way through.

Having to have a bunch of script meetings and debates every time you want members of an established successful professional team to have an on screen argument isn't a bad way to get some discipline in the writing.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on February 02, 2020, 06:26:27 PM
Do you need to earn a starting premise?

I find it sad that people think it is impossible to tell compelling stories about heroic, moral people. 



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 02, 2020, 07:49:33 PM
Wait, what? Who do you think this show is about if not the single most moral and heroic individual in the franchise?


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 02, 2020, 08:22:40 PM
Seriously. Picard is fucking heroic in the extreme here.  He's going to dig up heroism in people who are like him, kind of disenchanted.

High Noon is a compelling story about heroic, moral people.

If you mean "is it impossible to tell compelling stories about heroic, moral SYSTEMS where most people working for them are heroes", well, watch any old cop show or detective show or show about military guys, and you'll get a fucking assload of that. Most cop shows are about SYSTEMS where every cop and every prosecutor and every judge is presumed to be basically good. JAG or any number of other military shows have the soldiers and commanders being basically good and the system being good.

I mean, there has been an asston of that stuff on TV. Most of it is not very good because it's too busy being propaganda for the cops, the prosecutors or the military. The problem here is that Starfleet is actually kind of mixed outside the bottle of the Enterprise crew, who are all great people.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Teleku on February 02, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Yeah, Picard is pretty much the only Captain that I'd say falls into the Lawful Good category of Trek Captains.  Kirk being being Chaotic Good, and Sisko/Janeway falling into some form of Neutral Good.  I haven't watched any of this yet, but I assumed the premise was 'old righteous man yells at clouds righteously and does righteous things.'


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on February 02, 2020, 08:26:14 PM
And yet people were just arguing that you can't make a series about a moral Star Fleet with an optimistic outlook....


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 02, 2020, 08:46:20 PM
The optimism is in the outcomes. If your hero and his pals have nothing in their way except sinister aliens and the occasional insane admiral, that's a kind of heroism, I guess--of the Zapp Brannigan kind. Bad guys safely defeated every episode, etc.

I am more drawn to Atticus Finch. Picard in this series is in that mold. He's going to fucking tell the truth and do what he has to. I think actually that Kirk and Sisko and Pike and Spock have all been cut from that cloth on some level--they will do what is right, even if that's against the regulations. Janeway was meant to be, she was just written so badly that you can't really see that in her.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 03, 2020, 01:00:04 AM
And yet people were just arguing that you can't make a series about a moral Star Fleet with an optimistic outlook....

Nobody argued that. They argued an infallible starfleet is a problem.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on February 03, 2020, 02:34:56 AM
Heh, Starfleet admirals have been one of the main villains of the shows for 55 years.  Starfleet as a concept is noble but always fucks everything up in practice because of its leadership. Righteous Captains out on the frontier are the only true heroes (because remember, the show is "Wagon Train in space"). That's why it was significant that Picard offered to bust himself down to Captain.  The Federation is the more noble part of the deal but even then gets into bad territory on occasion.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 03, 2020, 03:57:40 AM
Even the antagonist admirals are usually noble but wrong about something.

If you really think about it, the federation is in practice a military dictatorship with no obvious civilian oversight. So honestly I think starfleet is granted a very favourable write up by the shows.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on February 03, 2020, 04:00:24 AM
A good portion are just bugfuck crazy.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 03, 2020, 04:03:46 AM
Oh sure, but noble at the same time.

They really believe super hard in starfleet's ideals.

One of the downsides of giving unlimited authority to an independent military I guess.

In all seriousness, this is why I think trek would struggle to do a show not about starfleet. You'd have to define the relationship between starfleet and the new protagonists, and that would quickly demonstrate that viewed from the outside starfleet is an unaccountable authoritarian oppressor. Possibly a benign unaccountable authoritarian oppressor, but an unaccountable authoritarian oppressor nonetheless.

At best the federation is Rome.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Tebonas on February 03, 2020, 04:19:56 AM
I've watched a different Star Trek than some of you.

Starfleet command comes across as either dimwitted idealists that have to be protected from themselves or infiltrators all the time, or obstructive bureaucrats that have to be circumvented. And once in a while one or more of them go crazy and have to be stopped by down-to-earth captains. Even Nonprotagonist captains lose their street smarts and have to be stopped and/or rescued after they get promoted.

So, Starfleet in Picard continues a proud tradition of both clueless Admirals and malignant foreign infiltrators in perfect canon fashion.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 03, 2020, 10:09:46 AM
Pretty much. You get your occasional Admiral in Trek who is competent and well-meaning but usually for a bit part or for upper-level redshirting, like the guy who gets waxed at Wolf 359. DS9 had a few competent admirals show up in the war-related episodes.

We almost never see the civilian hierarchy of the Federation in canon Trek series. Usually only as diplomats and emissaries, occasionally as really annoying bureaucrats (the dude in The Trouble With Tribbles). I don't believe there's ever been anything at all about Federation elections or cultural/political movements in any Trek ever (Federation ones, that is): only Bajor and the Klingons seem to have anything like complex internal politics. Maybe in Enterprise, I guess, but I'm not watching it all to see. The only thing we really know about the Federation is which directives/laws govern Starfleet that were made by the Federation government rather than Starfleet proper. I guess we know there's some kind of written constitution, that there's a sort of familiar executive/legislative set up, that member planets have their own autonomous administrations. I suppose we know through Bajor and a few other episodes that adding a new planet to the Federation is a big deal and may cause some controversy. Picard says there's no money, but there was money of a kind in TOS, so maybe that's something that happened in between TOS and TNG.

So the optimism, etc., has never really been about the system, except for Kirk, Picard and Sisko's frequent insistence that the Federation/humanity is living under vastly better conditions today than in the past, something that TOS and TNG directly verified on occasion via time travel/suspended animation--that internal war between human cultures on Earth is a thing of the past, that medicine is advanced and free, that transport is instantaneous, that there are major terraforming/geological projects on Earth, and that people seem to have a lot of time for leisure. The justice system seems kind of barely better than ours judging from a few episodes; there still seems to be lots of room for scientists and technologists to do seriously dumb fucking shit without anybody stopping them. Judging from the first two episodes of Picard, there is still something like Fox News around. Culture seems pretty stagnant--nobody ever talks about writers, intellectuals, artists etc from between 2050 and the 23rd Century except for Picard citing a few political theorists and Kirk citing a future poet to impress Edith Keeler.

Most of that, by the way, seems as true in Picard as any other time. People still seem to be living pretty good peaceful lives with good medical care despite a number of serious attacks on Earth in the 23rd and 24th Centuries.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on February 03, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
Go back and read what Roddenberry intended for Star Fleet to be. 

ďStar Trek was an attempt to say that humanity will reach maturity and wisdom on the day that it begins not just to tolerate, but take a special delight in differences in ideas and differences in life forms. [Ö] If we cannot learn to actually enjoy those small differences, to take a positive delight in those small differences between our own kind, here on this planet, then we do not deserve to go out into space and meet the diversity that is almost certainly out there.Ē

Star Fleet is the group that reached this enlightenment and reached out into the stars.  It was intended to be - and was - a hopeful and optimistic view of the future. While some individuals failed to live up to the ideals of Star Fleet, the organization as a whole was intended to be a just, righteous and moral organization working towards the betterment of the future.

If you play D&D - it is Lawful Good.

People are afraid to tell stories about moral and justi people these days - but that is what both the original and TNG Star Treks were about.  That is the core of Star Trek.  DS9 was good - but it wasn't the same premise.  Voyager and Enterprise had other premises as well, although Voyager did a better job of honoring the idea, even if it failed in so many other ways.

All I was saying - I'd like to see someone tackle Star Trek in the same vein that TOS and TNG did - with an organization that was (overall) just and moral.  One that was working to do the right thing and that people were proud to be representing.  It would be a nice change of pace from the countless shows that show people overcoming a corrupt government.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 03, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
The more sophisticated version of Trek is Iain Banks' Culture novels. I admire all of the representatives of the Culture in those books--and the idea of the Culture--but Banks is pretty alive to the downsides of an advanced, quasi-utopian galactic culture that is determined to stay that way.

Just coloring inside Roddenberry's lines is dramatically inert and kind of smug after a while--it's the story of enlightened, self-satisfied California liberals doing their best to uplift Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans etc.--all the complicatedly *human* drama is off-loaded onto those other cultures. The Federation doesn't actually seem to have much of a taste for genuine difference or diversity--almost everybody inside of Starfleet behaves basically similarly. The few times there's someone in Starfleet who is a different kind of personality they all like assholes to him or her (Barclay) until he/she finally proves worthy. There's almost no real religious or ethical diversity--the Vulcans are the closest to that (and again therefore get a ton of attention, because Federation humanity is just kind of there). It's easy to be tolerant when everybody is the same. I know, I know, back in the 60s saying that blacks and whites and Asians and Scots and Russians would all serve together in a single crew and not even be slightly aware of racial or ethnic or national differences felt a bit more radical. But even by the 1980s, that seemed kind of old hat. I mean, shit, they couldn't even really find a way to make a crew member who came from a planet of violence and rape have a really different perspective than the rest of them.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on February 03, 2020, 08:37:27 PM
That is one way to tell the story.  There were a lot of TOS episodes and TNG episodes that did not follow your recipe.  And, as for characters having different perspectives... seriously?  You think Bones and Spock, Kirk and Uhura, Picard and Data, etc... had the same perspectives? (Why the fuck does my spell check recognize Spock, Kirk and Picard Ö but not Uhura?)

And Trek is not the be all, end all, model of this idea.  You see collections of just and moral people working together to create a better future throughout a lot of older literature and entertainment.  DC's heroes, for example, were mostly boy scouts, as they say.  Nobody has had the guts to try to put them on the screen as pure symbols of hope and optimism since Chris Reeves in the first two Superman Movies.  I'm kind of hoping Marvel takes a shot at it with the Fantastic Four by telling some of their earlier stories rather than the crap where Sue becomes Malice, Ultimate Reed becomes a villain, or any of that other shit.  It would just be a nice break to see someone competent try to inspire with storytelling rather than fear monger  with the same repetitive cautionary tales.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on February 21, 2020, 04:17:19 PM
Still enjoying this - but it is really emphasising how weak Trek has been at worldbuilding outside of Starfleet. There is nothing wrong with what the show is doing but it fascinating how simple things like civilian travel and the how that guy with a bird of prey can exist seem surprising and slightly weird on a star trek show.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Surlyboi on February 21, 2020, 05:03:36 PM
Trek has always strived to be, in its best instances, a mirror of where we were as a society.

From the race relations allegory of "Let that be your last battlefield" (Black on the left white on the right vs black on the right white on the left) to the Cautionary tale of "The Omega Glory" (Khoms fighting Yangs in the aftermath of nuclear war), Star Trek has pointed out our failings and tried to say that we could be better.

That continues in Picard. Freecloud? That's pretty much an amalgam of The Caymans and a bunch of other tax havens for the rich today. It's Trek's Canto Bight.

Picard is finding himself disillusioned with a Federation and Starfleet that he fought and bled and sent others off to die for that isn't living up to the reputation that he's sold himself and so many others on. It's a once-impressive and seemingly inclusive and benign government that has found itself catering to its baser instincts and being helped along by infiltrators from a once powerful enemy that has now collapsed but is still rife with former espionage agents looking to bring down their old enemy from the inside. If that's not an indictment of Trump's America and the influence of Putin, I don't know what is.

And to echo Khal's sentiment, yeah, a lot of this is shades of The Culture and you can tell the writers are familiar with Banks' work. Hell, Rios's costume in the last episode is almost straight out of Excession.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on February 21, 2020, 05:08:19 PM
I'm actually really liking it. And yeah, the world-building really has been terrible. Until now.

Like:

We've seen our first Federation drug addict. And our first indication that no, not everybody gets to own a vineyard (though rather hilariously finding out that the poor person lives at the *actual* Vasquez Rocks was very clever).

Almost our first civilian pilot, yeah. The only other ones? Harcourt Fenton Mudd and Cyrano Jones, I think. Maybe a few others from DS9. No real sense of what the economics of civilian starships are, but so much for the "The Federation has no money" bullshit, because Picard is sure as fuck paying the dude.

Honestly, Trek is much more interesting when it's not purely a bottle show. This makes being a hero both more important and much harder. Picard is only really seeing the flaws now because he has to--and he's seeing his own flaws, what the "I just want to go to space" was covering up. It kind of adds another layer to that mudfight with his brother after the Borg episodes--that Picard has been so much the idealist and optimist operating in a situation where his idealism had commanding force that he's never really had to see what lies beyond it.


"A promise is a prison" was a nice memorable line, by the way.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on March 26, 2020, 08:15:54 PM
Thanks to the free month they're offering (code GIFT), I watched the season. 

While the early episodes felt like they grabbed the crumbs of the Star Trek universe and tried to build something with it, the final episodes would fit right in as modern TNG episodes.  Star Fleet does the right thing in the end, with the right leadership pulling it in that direction.  I'm very curious what they do in the future.  Curious enough to buy a month of their subscription here or there to do a marathon. 

Assuming we don't lose the star of the show to the virus.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on March 27, 2020, 03:24:07 AM
My feeling was the show really needs to lose its lead. This story was enough about Picard that it was good and showed how the films should have been done.

But what I'm interested in seeing more of is non-star-fleet people in a world dominated by this all powerful unaccountable even if mostly benevolent military junta.

The inevitable Pike show will cover my star fleet fleeting needs.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on March 27, 2020, 09:40:09 AM
My feeling was the show really needs to lose its lead. This story was enough about Picard that it was good and showed how the films should have been done.

But what I'm interested in seeing more of is non-star-fleet people in a world dominated by this all powerful unaccountable even if mostly benevolent military junta.

The inevitable Pike show will cover my star fleet fleeting needs.
I don't think we need to lose Picard to tell that story.  We just need him to remain retired and more of a diplomat than Star Fleet proper.  They're set up to explore synthetic life rights (like Humans (tv series)) attempted - that is something they could do entirely outside the Federation.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Surlyboi on March 27, 2020, 04:19:09 PM
This. Picard staying on is fine. The interpersonal stuff and the character development of the rest of the crew has me intrigued.



Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Tale on May 11, 2020, 10:44:56 PM
 


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 15, 2020, 03:07:28 PM
They just announced Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, with Anson Mount as Captain Pike plus Spock and Number One. Good idea! They will face the complicated problem that we know what's coming for Pike and Spock, but every other Enterprise character we don't really know about. We don't know in canon if Sulu and Uhura were assigned to the Enterprise before Kirk. We don't know about any of the other characters on board, really. So there's lots of room to play.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on May 15, 2020, 04:49:41 PM
It's kinda amazing how much output that IP has had without putting out anything not tied to all the original stuff (i.e. prequel, sequel, or reimagined) since 2001. 


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 15, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
And they've established they can tell 10 years of stories before Kirk shows up - and I do not think we've even seen Kirk's first days aboard the vessel, have we?  They could have Kirk on the last couple seasons of a 12 year show.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 15, 2020, 09:29:04 PM
Yeah, there is no in-canon story of Kirk on the Enterprise--we don't know if he was brought over as captain immediately after Pike was injured, if he was on board for some period of time before Pike was injured, etc.

I think Scotty is on the Enterprise already by "The Cage"? But we don't know if he was a lower engineering officer there who was promoted or if he came over as Chief Engineer.

But basically Mount established Pike as a terrific example of the humane, optimistic Starfleet captain, so I am looking forward to a show produced in that spirit.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 16, 2020, 09:36:36 AM
...
But basically Mount established Pike as a terrific example of the humane, optimistic Starfleet captain, so I am looking forward to a show produced in that spirit.
It is the core of Star Trek - hope.  I'm still not on board with the aesthetic of Discovery/SNW... but I'll put that aside if the shows are good.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on May 17, 2020, 04:48:55 AM
And they've established they can tell 10 years of stories before Kirk shows up - and I do not think we've even seen Kirk's first days aboard the vessel, have we?  They could have Kirk on the last couple seasons of a 12 year show.


The one place we have seen Kirk's first days on the enterprise demonstrates why this wouldn't be a great idea outside of wacky what if or mirror universe episodes.

I'm just happy for more spock.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 17, 2020, 10:06:04 AM
Yeah,  the interesting thing about the casting on the Abramsverse Trek is that Pine (who is a pretty good actor) is the weakest recast but I think that's because nobody can really do Kirk without either doing a Shatner imitation (bad idea) or being nothing like Shatner in the role (also bad idea). Spock and McCoy are more schtick that other actors can get right while also having their own spin on it, and Uhura etc. have so little base personality that new actors can make them better as characters. But Kirk, man, that's hard. I guess if we're now buying that Discovery and Strange New Worlds are in fact in the main ST universe, not the Abramsverse (Klingon debacle notwithstanding), the Kirk who is in this timeline presently on the Farragut (I think) is a more serious, intellectual and regulation-following person. I think they could probably have an arc where the Farragut and the Enterprise are on the same mission or something and cast someone who can play the "stack of books with legs" version of Kirk.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 17, 2020, 12:53:43 PM
And they've established they can tell 10 years of stories before Kirk shows up - and I do not think we've even seen Kirk's first days aboard the vessel, have we?  They could have Kirk on the last couple seasons of a 12 year show.
The one place we have seen Kirk's first days on the enterprise demonstrates why this wouldn't be a great idea outside of wacky what if or mirror universe episodes.

I'm just happy for more spock.
Those movies, outside ruining the end of Spock, can be ignored at this point.

Our three Spocks are all very different.  I think the Kirks can be as well and we'd survive.  You can put a hint of Shatner into a younger Kirk - a subtle nod to his over the top style - and be fine with it.  Regardless, I'd be shocked if the series (if successful) did not slowly show the change to TOS for the Enterprise and end with Kirk taking command after Pike's accident. 


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 19, 2020, 05:44:15 PM
Out of curiosity - If they announced that Season 2 of Picard was going to feature him going to DS9 and would pick up some threads of that show - would you be excited?  Curious?  Worried?


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on May 19, 2020, 05:48:53 PM
I'd love that. DS9 is the Star Trek series with the fewest followups. Voyager was a tub of crap compared to DS9 and their crew just goes on and on and on.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Ruvaldt on May 19, 2020, 06:05:46 PM
Considering the last time I saw Avery Brooks he seemed like he was out of his damned mind (The Captains) I'm not sure how that would go.

That said, I think DS9 got the most definitive ending of the series between TNG and ENT.  It doesn't feel like it needs to be revisited.  TNG didn't either if it had actually ended with All Good Things....  I think the existence of Nemesis made this show much more appealing because...that's not a good way to go out.  DS9 went out rather well.

Plus, Rene Auberjonois is dead.  As is Aron Eisenberg. 

I guess if Worf is going to be in the next season it'd be natural for them to pick up some DS9 threads, but I don't feel any great need for a continuation of that story.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: luckton on May 19, 2020, 06:58:47 PM
If you need a DS9 follow-up, read the novels. Good stuff.

I don't think S2 Picard needs to do more 90s Trek-reminiscing. It was fine for S1 to help re-establish things and hand-shake to the modern era. Let's go on a new adventure.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 19, 2020, 07:16:52 PM
If you need a DS9 follow-up, read the novels. Good stuff.

I don't think S2 Picard needs to do more 90s Trek-reminiscing. It was fine for S1 to help re-establish things and hand-shake to the modern era. Let's go on a new adventure.
If Patrick Stewart can keep going, this show will bring back: Q, all the original cast INCLUDING Denise Crosby and Wil Wheaton, and various characters from every other show, including Enterprise.  They'll probably find Archer's fucking beagle.

Good money is on someone on the ship having a connection to a TNS character.  They're going to mix the new in with the old.  I'm not saying it will be the best thing for them to do, but they'll do it.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Reg on May 19, 2020, 08:38:06 PM
Whatever they decide to do I'm interested in seeing where Picard goes next.

Note: I don't see them ever taking Wil Wheaton back. He seems almost pathetically desperate to get back on Trek but he must have pissed them off somehow from the way they're treating him.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on May 20, 2020, 08:47:35 AM
Stewart was on the View and asked Whoopie to come back.

Picard S1 was mediocre at best if you can ignore all the plot points from all the previous episodes and only concentrate in the literal moment.

It was so bad RLM made a Mr Plinkett about it. It's like 1.5 hours long.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 20, 2020, 08:58:37 AM
We were joking that the deus ex machina in the last episode of Picard was gonna be Wesley.

Considering how he left, you could in fact actually do an interesting return for him. Either Picard was surprisingly indifferent to Wesley going off with a highly advanced pedophile and that comes home to roost or maybe Wesley ends up having some other kind of interesting world-building thing going on, some other loose end.

With DS9, you could probably handle Avery Brooks being a complete pothead weirdo in his portrayal of Sisko considering that Sisko is still caught up in all the weirdness of the wormhole aliens and their enemies etc.

I do like the idea of the show being used to do some better world-building and to really engage the rougher edges of the Trek universe. A return to the Klingons and Worf seems like one promising direction but they'd have to decide what to do about Discovery's colossal fuckup of the Klingons. I'd love for them to think about a genuinely alien crewmember--a Gorn, an Andorian, hell how about a Horta?

Maybe something that dives way more deeply into the Q and the entire trope of "godlike aliens" that threads through Trek. I really wish Voyager had been something like Vernor Vinge's space operas--that as the Voyager went deeper into the Quadrant, closer to the galactic core, it was intruding into the space of more ancient 'godlike' civilizations that are terrified of the Borg's ascension (hence why Q accelerated the Federation's encounter with the Borg--because he and his compatriots actually believe in the potential of the Federation to overcome what various 'gods' cannot or will not confront)--that it was almost like the 'fast zone' of Vinge's novels. I could get behind a season arc that fleshed all of that side of Trek out a bit more and made it more complex and twisty and coherent.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: eldaec on May 20, 2020, 03:40:01 PM
I think Q is too off the charts weird for Picard. Despite it also being a gaping hole for Q not to show up and take the opportunity to fuck around with him.

It did best looking at how characters that are not star fleet or equivalent fit into the world. It needs to stay grounded to do that.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 20, 2020, 03:55:34 PM
We were joking that the deus ex machina in the last episode of Picard was gonna be Wesley.

Considering how he left, you could in fact actually do an interesting return for him. Either Picard was surprisingly indifferent to Wesley going off with a highly advanced pedophile and that comes home to roost or maybe Wesley ends up having some other kind of interesting world-building thing going on, some other loose end...
He has a blink and you'll miss it scene at the wedding in Nemesis.  Apparently, even the Traveler wanted to get rid of the kid.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Abagadro on May 20, 2020, 07:36:51 PM
Considering the people who are making (re: completely fucking up) Picard its funny to posit that they may come up with interesting sci-fi stories rather than more grim-dark, cookie-cutter space garbage.

I though the set-up was good but it went to shit really fast and then went sub-shit in the last few episodes.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 20, 2020, 08:39:36 PM
I like Chabon as a writer and I actually liked most of this. I wasn't wild about the wrap-up--the planet of the synthetics looked to me too much like the planet of the Extremely Northern California People in Star Trek: Insurrection. That was where they really needed to whip out the imagination--what is a small culture of all synthetic people like? etc. The Borg-synthetic connection was also shockingly unexplored--they seemed to be setting that up thematically and then, pffft, nothing.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 20, 2020, 10:53:07 PM
I think there will be a lot more borg / synthetic in the coming seasons.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on May 21, 2020, 09:33:20 AM
I hope they kill this show and start making Star Trek again. Like just kill the timeline and move forward 50-100 years and start over again with slightly better technology and exploring again. You can travel farther and faster now so like different quadrants and stuff. You can make up new factions etc.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 21, 2020, 09:41:30 AM
They already have the problem of technology being too advanced.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 21, 2020, 11:02:19 AM
I think I've mentioned it before somewhere, but I remember Stracynzski talking to fans on an old Babylon 5 message board when B5 first came out and the usual contentious subject of whether DS9 was trying to imitate B5 came up. Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

I thought that was a fucking great proposal, but that it was essentially a reboot. Voyager could have done most of that--damage the ship badly enough that they don't have transporters, replicators, holodecks, and that something doesn't work right about the translator, make them have to trade, etc. But even then, not quite what JMS was proposing.

I suppose you could do something like Star Trek: Andromeda--an experimental drive takes a Federation ship (on purpose) to a neighboring galaxy; the drive has to collect dark matter very slowly via a scoop for five years before it can be used to return. No replicators because something something technobabble; the translators don't work until several years of contacts produce enough commonalities; life is not "humanoids with bumpy foreheads" but some really really different organisms, societies, etc.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Samwise on May 21, 2020, 12:10:36 PM
He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

It's all fun and games until the nazi space lizards show up.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: jgsugden on May 21, 2020, 12:47:09 PM
... Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator." ...
So you're saying the stole 2 show ideas from him because that was the essential pitch for Enterprise. 


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 21, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
Pretty much--that was how some fans looked at it (and why JMS said that the lawyers on retainer for B5 told him to stop talking online about ideas he had).


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Samwise on May 21, 2020, 02:16:39 PM
There's also a lot of overlap there with Voyager, for that matter.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Draegan on May 21, 2020, 02:29:16 PM
I think I've mentioned it before somewhere, but I remember Stracynzski talking to fans on an old Babylon 5 message board when B5 first came out and the usual contentious subject of whether DS9 was trying to imitate B5 came up. Someone asked JMS what he'd do if they asked him to do a Trek show.

He said, "I'd make it a real first-contact show, where every season was one, maybe two first-contact arcs. I'd take away the transporter. I'd take away the instant contact with Starfleet. I'd make the distances genuinely vast--where they were beyond any hope of quick rescue. I'd take away the replicators, so that they had to resupply from the civilization or planet they were in contact with. I'd make the crew small, so that everyone had to be involved directly in planetary exploration, first-contact research and diplomacy, etc. I'd make the aliens alien. I'd take away the translator."

I thought that was a fucking great proposal, but that it was essentially a reboot. Voyager could have done most of that--damage the ship badly enough that they don't have transporters, replicators, holodecks, and that something doesn't work right about the translator, make them have to trade, etc. But even then, not quite what JMS was proposing.

I suppose you could do something like Star Trek: Andromeda--an experimental drive takes a Federation ship (on purpose) to a neighboring galaxy; the drive has to collect dark matter very slowly via a scoop for five years before it can be used to return. No replicators because something something technobabble; the translators don't work until several years of contacts produce enough commonalities; life is not "humanoids with bumpy foreheads" but some really really different organisms, societies, etc.

Didn't Stargate do something like that?


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: BobtheSomething on May 21, 2020, 03:49:45 PM
They already have the problem of technology being too advanced.

Yeah, no writers could possibly work with advanced technology.  Thatís why the Culture series is such shit.  🙄


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: luckton on May 25, 2020, 12:50:06 PM
Didn't Stargate do something like that?

Yes, and it was beautiful.

But apparently the approach didn't get the ratings they wanted. Plus they also hit the same problem as Star Trek; too much of a thing/saturation diminished the value of the brand overall.


Title: Re: Picard
Post by: Khaldun on May 26, 2020, 04:41:14 PM
I think Picard shows you can bring the Federation and Starfleet into view a bit more and benefit from it. But yes, if they really want to do that, and not cover a ship or a station "out there", they've just got to go more in the direction of Banks. What does a better, largely post-scarcity society look like? Especially right at this moment in the Trek timeline--they've had a bad scare (the Mars attack) and now they know it a misdirect. But they've also had to deal with the umpteenth infiltration of Starfleet--Tal Shiar, the goobers from "Conspiracy", the Founders--which should give them all a lot of pause. They've got really incoherent civilizational ideas about life (synthetic life bad or ok to use as a tool even before the Mars attack; but near-AI disembodied computers largely good or ok). Their ideas about pluralism have the same classic problems that our ideas do (Starfleet is ok with your values and ideas as long as they're within the same narrow band as Starfleet/Federation orthodoxy, but stray much outside and you get told to go mind your own business back on your own world). All of this is super relevant to the present day, so they can keep the tradition of using Trek to comment on and think about our moment.